Strange player quirk from FFXI and now in XIV

So, this post is not a "complaint" but more a request for some opinions or feedback on a very odd thing I've experienced in FFXI and now in FFXIV - but have never experienced in any other MMORPG I've ever played.

I've noticed that while in XP parties (not being PL'd, just normal straight-forward xp-parties) that there are many players who, once the group hits a good rhythm, the xp is flowing in nicely, and things are going smoothly, they'll decide "hey, let's go kill some much harder stuff instead".

And in every case, at least for me, it ends up with people dying, xp slowing to a crawl, lots of downtime, people getting frustrated and dropping the group and, in many cases, the group disbanding altogether. All because certain people insisted we fight tougher mobs.

I can recall a small novel's worth of such situations in XI (particularly one memorable one in Qufim involving Acrophes), and in almost every case it ended badly. And now I had exactly the same thing happen last night in XIV.

Case in point, last night I'm in a group and we're fighting in Copperbell Mines, on the ants. Things were rough at first until we found a great camp spot and figured out a good pattern/rhythm to kill in. Then things smoothed out and, as levels started rolling in, the xp started coming nice and quickly, we were getting Chain 6s, no down-time, taking on 2-3 at a time and doing beautifully. It wasn't a cakewalk, mind you. If we had, say, 1 or 2 more link on, it would have been a wipe. So we were definitely in that sweet spot. We were high 20s and the mobs were between 35 and 39.

We've got an amazing flow going, things are going beautifully and then the party leader says "Hey I want to go kill some Coblyns. Let's go do that" (to paraphrase). Then proceeds to run off back toward the coblyns. I protested by way of asking why they wanted to change locations when we were doing so well already. I didn't get much of an answer beyond that the leader wanted to do it.

End result, the Coblyns were too high level/too tough. People died. One person had to leave in 15 minutes and so they just dropped out then. Another person left after they did. The whole group ended up back in Uldah trying to rebuild with almost an hour wasted. That would have been at least 1 to 1.5 levels, maybe more, at the rate we were going.

All because getting chain 6s with xp in the high 500s, with no down-time, no deaths and a nice flow of fights going wasn't good enough for the group leader and they insisted on fighting something tougher.

A Linkshell mate noted that they'd experienced it a lot in XIV as well, and worse in some cases.

Now again, I have never experienced this in any other MMORPG. FFXI was the first time I ever saw it, and now I see it again in XIV.

So, I'm genuinely curious and hope someone can maybe shed some light on why it is people are more prone to do this in XI and XIV? What is the logic in it, if any at all?

Usually the people who say that have been in a party where the higher mobs were easily taken care of. The problem is, not all players in parties are the same. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't

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Originally Posted by Irishwars

Usually the people who say that have been in a party where the higher mobs were easily taken care of. The problem is, not all players in parties are the same. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't

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Hmm, I could see that. I have experienced parties where players had a false or inflated sense of confidence.

Usually, the previous experiences they had involved having a PL'er out-of-party holding all the hate so all they had to do was play whack-a-mole with almost no risk of aggro. Of course, then when they try to handle those same mobs without a PL, they realize they can't and so, the myth that "a PL is needed to level" would be reinforced in their minds. The reality being, of course, that they simply had to take on mobs more ideal for their level.

Coblyns are horrible to level of anyway they have crazy defence.

I think people tend to get too comfortable and want more challenge so look for that and over extend their skills lol.

I have had similar happen in both FF11 and FF14, but in most other MMO's you can solo fairly well to get your XP, FF11/14 is the only MMO I have played where you grind for hours as a group.

It's also comes down to greed and boredom also, some people (especially those who are used to stronghold parties) want and expect 1000+ xp chains and you aren't going to get that at lower level.

i wouldn't say it's native to the FF MMO series. it's pretty common for players in all MMOs to pay more attention to xp/kill rather than xp/hour. it's just more easy to observe here and in XI because you group up for the best XP.

Possibly the leader of the party didn't know how bad the coblyns are, or perhaps he wanted to see higher exp/kill, if you get in a party like that again (if you know you will get raped by a mob) speak up, tell them your "exp is fine as it is and exp/hr > exp/kill." I could be wrong but if your getting much more than 500 exp/kill go to slightly weaker mobs, you will kill faster and might only be getting 100 exp/kill less, but exp/hr could be twice as fast.

Oh and if anyone suggests killing coblyns for exp tell them no they have high def and we aren't at release now, coblyns suck.

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Originally Posted by fusional

i wouldn't say it's native to the FF MMO series. it's pretty common for players in all MMOs to pay more attention to xp/kill rather than xp/hour. it's just more easy to observe here and in XI because you group up for the best XP.

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Ahh, but it's not just a matter of paying attention to xp/hr. It's paying attention to xp/hr and mistakenly feeling you're going to automatically improve on it by going after tougher targets.

The thing is, our xp/hr was far better where we were than where the leader wanted to go. I knew as soon as he said he wanted to go after tougher and higher level mobs that it was going to go badly. Because I've seen it happen so many times before, and almost always with the same result.

There's this long-standing misconception many MMO players still have (in XI, FFXIV and other MMOs) that "harder fights = better xp per kill = more xp/hr". But that is never the case. The tougher fights take longer, they're riskier (more chance of a bad pull resulting in multiple deaths) and overall yield less xp/hr than going after things only slightly above your own level as a group, or even a level or two lower if you're solo (the degree varies from game to game of course).

In almost all cases when I've seen people want to leave a perfectly good spot to move elsewhere, it's been in the pursuit of better xp. And it almost always works out to be worse. Yet, some people never learn. I've seen the same people making the same mistake time and again in XI, for example.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Possibly the leader of the party didn't know how bad the coblyns are, or perhaps he wanted to see higher exp/kill, if you get in a party like that again (if you know you will get raped by a mob) speak up, tell them your "exp is fine as it is and exp/hr > exp/kill." I could be wrong but if your getting much more than 500 exp/kill go to slightly weaker mobs, you will kill faster and might only be getting 100 exp/kill less, but exp/hr could be twice as fast.

Oh and if anyone suggests killing coblyns for exp tell them no they have high def and we aren't at release now, coblyns suck.

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I actually did bring up that point, by way of asking why we were moving to another spot if we were doing so well where we were. Their response was basically just that they wanted to fight coblyns.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

I actually did bring up that point, by way of asking why we were moving to another spot if we were doing so well where we were. Their response was basically just that they wanted to fight coblyns.

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Then if I were you if people keep doing that you could be better off ditching them, over time they would become known on the server for not knowing the basic mechanics of the game (exp/hr > exp/kill, and how efficiant parties work) people would in turn not join thier parties. Perhaps talk to the other members in tells and make another party with the others that were against it and really annoy the leader.

Its the only way these people will learn.

I've noticed that as well, somewhat. People thinking higher exp/kill is better than exp/hour. Hopefully as the game continues and develops its own culture this will change.

I like to point out how well we are doing with chaining the mobs. Harder mobs usually result in very short or nonexistent chains.

Yeah I've had this issue before, and I'm keeping a list of people who's parties I won't join because they've done this.

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Originally Posted by Pyretta_Blaze

I like to point out how well we are doing with chaining the mobs. Harder mobs usually result in very short or nonexistent chains.

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You'd think that's all they'd need to hear/read, right?

Sadly, once someone's convinced they can do better elsewhere, on harder mobs, there's no stopping them.

This certainly did happen often in XI, and for as long as I played that people always seemed to be intent on saying, "I'm getting 200/kill this is good (our kills might be taking 45~60 secs each)." instead of, "I'm getting 120/kill but just hit chain 68(means an avg. kill speed of <10secs)". People are hard to convince even when presented simple math, once that idea is lodged in there it can take a number of blows from a sledge hammer or 20 to finally get it across.
In XI this trend started to change in older players with a few jobs that were 70+. Course Abyssea broke all the rules for XI xp parties. My hope is that it'll change here too.

I should also say that I've been known to want to step it up, usually when kills are happening in <5 secs avg and healers are doing nothing but holding onto their sticks. If you step mob level up 3~5 at that point and the party fails maybe it was really just a shitty party to begin with but because of the relative ease of the mobs you were originally fighting it seemed good.

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Originally Posted by Pyretta_Blaze

I like to point out how well we are doing with chaining the mobs. Harder mobs usually result in very short or nonexistent chains.

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And thats why you don't join those parties, or ditch em.

Happened in every MMORPG I ever played.
You can't see exp per hour but you see exp per kill, it's obvious people think they should go to higher lvl mobs as soon as fights are getting smooth.

The day before yesterday I even had this feeling myself - we were a lvl 36-38 group leveling just fine at the lvl40-42 raptors, killing them so fast we even had to wait for the respawn often.
Thing is - someone suggested we fight lvl 44 goblins instead. Well, goblins are bad for lvling anyway, so enough people were against it but we still left our leveling spot and instead tried to take on lvl 44-48 raptors..and wiped as soon as we pulled more than 2 raptors:rolleyes:
After ~10 min four people had left, including the leader and the party was disbanded.
What would have been wrong with just staying at the lvl 42 raptors? We got good exp there._.
But even I thought "we are way too strong for this spot already" just because we had to wait for the respawn all the time.
It just...happens.
And it's not native to FF online games at all.

You may have to throw pessimism right up front. Have it on a macro.

"My concern is that if we fight harder enemies, they will link, we will die. We will lose time, not get XP, party gets discouraged and we lose members. Then we'll be in Ul'dah reforming. Should we take that risk?"

You can modify it any manner of ways to convey thy point.

"Yo! If we fight deese enemies, we be linkin' lot'sa hard enemies! Tank ain't high, DPS ain't high and we all outta moko grass sun. So plz, be a good lala. Stay hea, where da XP is safe... and sexy."

In seriousness, it seems to happen and the difference in enemy abilities is just to vast. There are links to consider and AoE damage avoidance. And the moment folks start playing hero (they go off to fight an enemy expecting healer support), it gets even worse. Especially higher level raptors.

*Shows several guys playing hero, surrounded by raptors. All the raptors charge up, none of them being focused on. Raptors unleash their weapon skills simultaneously. Tank/DPS have no chance to survive, healer make your time.*

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

"Yo! If we fight deese enemies, we be linkin' lot'sa hard enemies! Tank ain't high, DPS ain't high and we all outta moko grass sun. So plz, be a good lala. Stay hea, where da XP is safe... and sexy."

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May I use this? It's awesome lol.

Well the times that I suggest that we move camps are the times that I am usually the highest level in the party. And sometimes we do wipe because the level gap between the monsters and the lowest members are sometimes up to ~10 lvls too. It really is not exp efficient if you are the only one gaining 300exp/kill while others are gaining 600-700exp/kill. Somtimes I have to suck it up and let lowbies leech off a level or 2 before we move. But there shouldn't be any complaints nonetheless since exp is way faster than ff11..

But either way, I have not bumped into the same problems as you had in ff14. I used to be a ff11 player too and it is too easy to turn a bad situation around in this game. In ff11, if you are fucked, you are fucked as there is such small chance of escaping.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

May I use this? It's awesome lol.

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If it saves your party's life, by all means

My thoughts on migrating camps are:

* If a gladiator or marauder is on the lower level end on the party, they should usually avoid tanking (35 gladiator getting hit for 300 damage vs. 40 archer getting hit for 120 damage)
* The gap between the highest level enemy and the lowest level party member is not more than 9~10 levels (that stray hit will nearly insta-kill them).

Which has the side effect of having a narrow party gap to yield overall improved results.

Although my philosophy is: some XP at a steady rate is better than not getting any XP at all.
And a somewhat destructive philosophy of: if the level gap is too much, I encourage higher level party members to find a party suited for their level, but to remain with us until they find that party.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

My thoughts on migrating camps are:

* If a gladiator or marauder is on the lower level end on the party, they should usually avoid tanking (35 gladiator getting hit for 300 damage vs. 40 archer getting hit for 120 damage)
* The gap between the highest level enemy and the lowest level party member is not more than 9~10 levels (that stray hit will nearly insta-kill them).

Which has the side effect of having a narrow party gap to yield overall improved results.

Although my philosophy is: some XP at a steady rate is better than not getting any XP at all.
And a somewhat destructive philosophy of: if the level gap is too much, I encourage higher level party members to find a party suited for their level, but to remain with us until they find that party.

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I agree with this almost entirely, but what I find is tweaking the ranges a bit, perhaps if the lowest member in the party happen to be an arc/brd I'd look at the next lowest for mob level. If I can get the highest member or 3 to be equal and tanks then 3~5 levels above them shouldn't be too much of a problem, assuming of course that your not in a mageless pt, which happen can be stupid fast but are not w/o their risks.

In the end though as a guideline I think that's about perfect.

http://spliced-infinities.guildwork....arty-mechanics