(Endwalker) Summoner goes into the right direction but i'd like to see permanent pets

I guess the direction is good where SE is taking the summoner. Away from the DoT WoW warlock type of summoner more into the direction of a Final Fantasy summoner.
But still i think casting spells by myself as a summoner or going into melee (ifrit charge attack) as a summoner feels pretty weird / comical and not accurate to the history of the Final Fantasy Summoner.

Final Fantasy summoner is a job that issues commands to the summons / avatars.
In my opinion they should make the pets cast the spells / or hitting with melee attacks instead of the summoner himself.
Otherwise in my opinion i could play a white mage or red mage already if i want to cast stone and wind spells myself.

Just imagine the summoner job action trailer. But instead of the summoner casting the wind, fire and earth spells it'd be the specific semi-permanent summon in the current rotation.
thats about it. No rework of skills, its more a matter of animations and keeping the feel and essence of playing a FF summoner.


Why not letting them take part in the battle as a semi-perma pet while the summoner is kind of bending them with nicely looking bending techniques such as in "Avatar Aaang - the last air bender" for example`?

Of course they would need to reduce the overall size of the summons so that they dont block the view of other players. To make them as tall as the biggest Roegadyn or just like in Final Fantasy XI for example?
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/170619/5uodmclk.jpg
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/170620/66eiheug.jpg

Bending animations like these for example:
https://onlinestore-img.finalfantasy...9_m_detail.jpg
https://onlinestore-img.finalfantasy...ub1_detail.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-ldHWBoO63I/maxresdefault.jpg




An other suggestion is to cut out the current ultimate attacks of the summon pets and make them exclusive to Limit Break III. So when for example the summoner currently has ifrit out as a pet and is casting ,,Limit Break III" the huge version of Ifrit will appear in the selected area to cast "hellfire" etc. . this way it still feels special if the pets are casting their ultimates. (if none pet is out the summoner would show up with his old LB3 animation)

http://fs5.directupload.net/images/170620/pozybtb2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

I guess the direction is good where SE is taking the summoner. Away from the DoT WoW warlock type of summoner more into the direction of a Final Fantasy summoner.
But still i think casting spells by myself as a summoner or going into melee (ifrit charge attack) as a summoner feels pretty weird and not accurate to the history of the Final Fantasy Summoner.
[/IMG]

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The majority of FF titles have summons that appear, do their attack and fly away, leaving the smn to keep attacking by themselves. I don't know where you get the summon being persistent is how smn works in the franchise and this is the outlier.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

The majority of FF titles have summons that appear, do their attack and fly away, leaving the smn to keep attacking by themselves. I don't know where you get the summon being persistent is how smn works in the franchise and this is the outlier.

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Well there are actually more Titles where the summons are persistent in the last decade or 20 years. Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XI Online, Final Fantasy XII, Final Fantasy XIII, Final Fantasy Type-0 and Final Fantasy VII Remake.
And in my opinion these are also the better systems than having a "fire and forget" animation and calling it "summoner".

Additionally we literally dont have any petclass in this MMORPG... but many casters and melee fighters.
Secondly it would make the summoner distinct from other casters such as red mage or white mage who are already casting wind and fire and earth spells..

And then you have to show me even one Final Fantasy title where the summoner job is casting wind, fire and earth spell by his own... and even worse: is attacking with his bare fists like a monk in melee range.
So i actually "dont know, where you get that"

So .... now you.

As much as I enjoy the summoning system in the games mentioned in your post, historically the pet AI in FFXIV has been unreliable. After several failed attempts of reworking it, I believe that 6.0’s summoner will provide the best overall experience.

As for a summoner that attacks on their own, that would be Yuna’s playstyle from Dissidia NT. As opposed to having a full roster of summons, she can instead use their attacks for various effects. I personally feel like going into melee range during the Ifrit trance is a fantastic addition and I look forward to seeing that being expanded upon.

So you named 6 titles out of, how many ff titles are their again? That is not at all representative of the franchise and as you said this, non persistent pet, is supposedly not accurate to the franchise. So what you said was still not true and just because you feel its a better system, doesn't mean it is. It can be, I loved ffxi smn, but don't go throwing around statements about facts when it takes a simple search to find out otherwise, esp when you are in a forum with likely hundreds of not thousands of fans of the franchise who could easily tell you otherwise because they have played all if not most of the titles in the franchise. When you open your post with a statement that is clearly and easily found to be untrue, you lose all credibility for anything else you said.

You want it that way because you like it better, not because of traditions in the franchise. At least be up front and say that or just get your facts straight.

Oh and btw the pets in games like the 7 remake and 10 do not have persistent pets. They still only show up for a quick visit, do what they need to do and leave. (kinda like bahamut and pheonix) 30 seconds does not equal persistence in the way you mean here. FFXI had truly persistent pets but X did not.

Imagine if Yuna or cloud could have just run around with shiva out the entire game lol

....so you want a magic monk?

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

So you named 6 titles out of, how many ff titles are their again? That is not at all representative of the franchise and as you said this, non persistent pet, is supposedly not accurate to the franchise.

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Oh god, i named all FF's from the past 20 years.. if thats not enough i dunno.

if you dont need pets and dont enjoy pet classes fine.
Since these 6 games i mentioned are also part of the franchise and the games you are talking about are from the 80's / 90's, so fine.

But leave your toxic negativity somewhere else please.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

You want it that way because you like it better, not because of traditions in the franchise.

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Nope, since these titles are named are legit and more relevant than ever (except XV) - since these are the most recent titles. (we are talking about 20 years)

Also, we have no legit pet class in this MMORPG. I played BST, DRG (with wyvern) and Summoner + Puppetmaster in FFXI as pet classes.
If pet classes arent your thing, fine.

But please respect others opinions and dont be harsh passively aggressive because its not what YOUR opinion is or what SE did in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

But leave your toxic negativity somewhere else please.

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I am not at all being negative or toxic. Just stating the facts. If you are upset because the actual facts don't align with how you feel, that is not me being toxic by any means. I am not trying to start a fight, just don't go throwing around factually incorrect statements to try to back up your argument for why you think SE is doing something incorrectly. We have enough of that in this day and age.

oh and pet classes are totally my thing.

your opinion is fine, since its yours

however, in Endwalker, SE is clearly not making a "pet class" as you would consider it.

while smn in FFxiv has "pets" I dont see them ever making it an actual pet class. also, while persistent pets may seem awesome, the larger they are, the more potential to block others view of a fight, which lessens their enjoyment of said content, which presents another issue for persistent, especially of big flappy ones.

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

....so you want a magic monk?

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Well it was a suggestion for the "bending" / "taming" animations.

I mean the current "issue command" animation of the summoner is pretty bad and boring to say the least.
So giving the summoner job class more action orientated bending animations would make it more entertaining - without feeling too passive.

I didnt mean super jumps like the MNK is doing.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

30 seconds does not equal persistence in the way you mean here.

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Well you misunderstood me. Thats what i would be fine with actually. If the pets would be part of the rotation like in the trailer shown. With the actual only difference that the summonerissues commands to the pets instead of going "melee" monk.
Same skills, same spells, same effects. Just with the difference that the avatars are inflicting the damage, and not the summoner itself.

I have the feel otherwise it wont feel any different to red mage or white mage actually. And to have the kind of feel to play a pet class..

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

If you are upset because the actual facts don't align with how you feel

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The actual facts are that in the past 20 years all FF's (except FFXV) had "permanent" pets.
And this on the other hand doesnt align with your arguments which you are making up here.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

the more potential to block others view of a fight, which lessens their enjoyment of said content, which presents another issue for persistent, especially of big flappy ones.

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Its all the matter of size. While Bahamut is too huge, they could resize it to the size of the tallest Roegadyn. Problem solved.
It even worked in FFXI.

And yes, i'd be fine with it if Garuda, Ifrit, Titan etc. would be part of the rotation which was shown in the trailer.
So kind of semi-permanent pets like Bahamut etc. already are.

Just with the difference that not the summoner is casting wind spells like a WHM or RDM... instead the pets could inflict the damage and being commanded by the summoner.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

The actual facts are that in the past 20 years all FF's (except FFXV) had "permanent" pets.

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You never stated the past 20 years, you stated in the history of final fantasy.

All I am saying is that if you want to make a case for permanent pets you need to not just make things up. It doesn't help your argument

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Just with the difference that not the summoner is casting wind spells like a WHM or RDM... instead the pets could inflict the damage and being commanded by the summoner.

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so what you are suggesting is, in effect, a complete reworking of the smn class from the ground up so you can get new animations for not just the summoner, but the pet as well?

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

You never stated the past 20 years, you stated in the history of final fantasy.

All I am saying is that if you want to make a case for permanent pets you need to not just make things up. It doesn't help your argument

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If you want to contribute to an argumentation state facts why its a good idea or why its not.
Instead of fishing for strange facts, which doesnt contribute any positive to an argumentation at all.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

so what you are suggesting is, in effect, a complete reworking of the smn class from the ground up so you can get new animations for not just the summoner, but the pet as well?

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No. Just imagine the summoner job action trailer. But instead of the summoner casting the wind, fire and earth spells it'd be the specific semi-permanent summon in the current rotation.
thats about it. No rework of skills, its more a matter of animations and keeping the feel and essence of playing a FF summoner.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Well there are actually more Titles where the summons are persistent in the last decade or 20 years. Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XI Online, Final Fantasy XII, Final Fantasy XIII, Final Fantasy Type-0 and Final Fantasy VII Remake.
And in my opinion these are also the better systems than having a "fire and forget" animation and calling it "summoner".

Additionally we literally dont have any petclass in this MMORPG... but many casters and melee fighters.
Secondly it would make the summoner distinct from other casters such as red mage or white mage who are already casting wind and fire and earth spells..

And then you have to show me even one Final Fantasy title where the summoner job is casting wind, fire and earth spell by his own... and even worse: is attacking with his bare fists like a monk in melee range.
So i actually "dont know, where you get that"

So .... now you.

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FF7, FF8, FF9...

And even earlier than that, have summons appear to do their thing and vanish. I'd say there's more of a precedence for that, hence why people are excited to see Summoner return to its roots.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

FF7, FF8, FF9...

And even earlier than that, have summons appear to do their thing and vanish. I'd say there's more of a precedence for that.

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FF7, FF8, FF9 dont have a summoner class.

And since we are playing an MMORPG pet classes are a thing, you know. (for some players at least)

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

FF7, FF8, FF9 dont have a summoner class.

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But they have summons.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

But they have summons.

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No Summoner in FF history is fighting in monk melee fighter style. No.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

No Summoner in FF history is fighting in monk melee fighter style. No.

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I'm aware of that, but thanks!

While you are correct that FFVII and FFVIII have no dedicated summoner class, the summons in those two games are mechanically equivalent to those in FFIX, where two party members are of the race of summoners. I understand the desire for a pet class that functions in the way that you mention...but it's been 8 years of trying and failing to implement such a system to no avail. A limited number of demi-summons alongside an expanded roster of one-off summons that grant us trance abilities still falls in line with the aesthetic many have been seeking.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

No. Just imagine the summoner job action trailer. But instead of the summoner casting the wind, fire and earth spells it'd be the specific semi-permanent summon in the current rotation.
thats about it. No rework of skills, its more a matter of animations and keeping the feel and essence of playing a FF summoner.

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if you read my post, I actually said that. a rework of summoner animations, and the pet animations from the ground up. I said zero about a skill rework.

its great that they decided to change summoner in Endwalker, I do not see them making a drastic change to the summoner animations without having to rework... everyone's.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

And then you have to show me even one Final Fantasy title where the summoner job is casting wind, fire and earth spell by his own... and even worse: is attacking with his bare fists like a monk in melee range.
So i actually "dont know, where you get that"

So .... now you.

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Sorry to jump back to this post but Rydia in FFIV does exactly that (besides summon magic she also initially has access to White and Black magic spells, but after her... age up.... she inexplicably loses access to the White magic strangely, but still has Black Magic). Really, any FF game which doesn't use a variation of the Job system and instead has characters with unique abilities and summon spells can be freely equipped to all characters can do this easily.

And you can have summoners attack with bare fists in many games, you could indeed do that in FF Tactics, and titles with no Job system but unqiue abilities could equip summon magic freely could have this effect, like Tifa in FFVII or Zell in FFVIII.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Well there are actually more Titles where the summons are persistent in the last decade or 20 years. Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XI Online, Final Fantasy XII, Final Fantasy XIII, Final Fantasy Type-0 and Final Fantasy VII Remake.
And in my opinion these are also the better systems than having a "fire and forget" animation and calling it "summoner".

Additionally we literally dont have any petclass in this MMORPG... but many casters and melee fighters.
Secondly it would make the summoner distinct from other casters such as red mage or white mage who are already casting wind and fire and earth spells..

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This view of summon magic is very incomplete, the FF series has been going since 1987, and Micah was completely right in saying that traditionally for the first nine titles in the series summon magic is simply a fancy animation that shows up, does it's big impressive attack and then disappears (some FF titles therefore placed restrictions on how many times a summon could be cast or how many you could equip).

Even FFVII (the original PS1 version and the pre-Remake Compilation titles I mean, not the Remake) just has summon materia as a fancy attack that does it's thing and then disappears with no input from the player (and the ultimate expression of that was in FFVII Crisis Core where summon spell animations were actually over-the-top FMV sequences). Really, FFX started this whole stupid 'summons as a pet you command' thing, possibly inspired by the Pokemon craze, and FFXI solidified it, and, it just doesn't work in an MMO environment, let alone a single-player game, as the continued issues ACN/SMN/SCH faces here in FFXIV show only too well.

Really, at this point, I'd like to just see the whole pet angle for ACN/SMN/SCH here in FFXIV scrapped and replaced with the old-style 'summon spell as an animation and then disappears' concept, as it would solve much of the lingering issues that continues to dog (pun intended) pet classes.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

And then you have to show me even one Final Fantasy title where the summoner job is casting wind, fire and earth spell by his own... and even worse: is attacking with his bare fists like a monk in melee range.
[...]

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Not the person you were addressing, but:

• Rydia from FF4. She is a Summoner who can cast Fire, Wind, and Earth spells be herself (Fire 1 through 3, Tornado, and Quake). Could only use Rods and Whips.
• In FFV you can set the second ability slot to allow Summoners to attack like a Monk or cast spells that happen to be Fire, Wind, or Earth base.
• Summoner from Final Fantasy Tactics can be made to use bare fists to attack like a Monk in melee range and cast wind, fire, and earth spells on their own.
• In FFXI, Summoners could set their subjob to do some of those things... poorly (even as /SCH).

That's four games right there with dedicated summoner jobs or persons who were designated as a summoner and could do those things you have described.

By the way, what you were describing in your OP was Puppetmaster from FFXI.

• There was no "bending" by the user, but you could have three Maneuvers up at once. Each Maneuver was elementally aligned and allowed the attachments on the Automaton to be activate or be enhanced.
• Puppetmaster also have Martial Arts trait for melee combat.
• Although no innate magic casting by the Puppetmaster, but with Puppetmaster being able to equip caster gear and equip a caster subjob (/SCH mainly), you could be a magic caster PUP and be slightly effective at it. This is not considering the three automaton casting heads and body.

Which, as a Puppetmaster main from FFXI, I do not want it in FF14. SE would not make it the same Puppetmaster, but some knock-off version to fit within the Holy Trinity or make it a limited job.

Final Fantasy is not Avatar. I don't need kung fu and tai chi in my Summoner, thanks.

If you want bending, ask for geomancer.

And maybe egi glamours can bring what you're looking for.


Don't you dare touch my carbuncle tho.

I want a summon to cast its ultimate attack and then disappear like in the old final fantasy games.

The problem is that the ultimate attacks of garuda, titan and ifrit are not as good as in old final fantasy games. They just do a raid-wide aoe instead of ifrit erupting out of the ground and dashing, arriving on a comet, titan raising earth up and that sort of thing.

What makes up for this is that after the summon disappears, the attacks the summoner does resemble these actions more, like earth erupting from the ground and ifrit's dash.

(I recall them clarifying that carbuncle can be made to look like any of them?)

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

I didnt mean super jumps like the MNK is doing

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Mnk only has one animation that is like a "super jump". are you thinking of dragoon?
The lyse picture you posted from the stormblood trailer actually shows off a lot of ingame mnk animations, like the fist stances, demolish, form shift etc,.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I want a summon to cast its ultimate attack and then disappear like in the old final fantasy games.

The problem is that the ultimate attacks of garuda, titan and ifrit are not as good as in old final fantasy games. They just do a raid-wide aoe instead of ifrit erupting out of the ground and dashing, arriving on a comet, titan raising earth up and that sort of thing.

What makes up for this is that after the summon disappears, the attacks the summoner does resemble these actions more, like earth erupting from the ground and ifrit's dash.

(I recall them clarifying that carbuncle can be made to look like any of them?)

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I really do hope we can Egi glamour the Carbuncle into those new models. I think we will be disappointed though. I mean the Summons can be resized down to absurdly small proportions so it shouldn't be impossible.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The problem is that the ultimate attacks of garuda, titan and ifrit are not as good as in old final fantasy games. They just do a raid-wide aoe instead of ifrit erupting out of the ground and dashing, arriving on a comet, titan raising earth up and that sort of thing.

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This is a multiplayer game with real time combat.

I do not want to have a full rdm lb3 every 5ish gcds in the middle of raid.

God, it would make alliance raids impossible.

I think bending animations would look weird on SMN given they're holding a book. Bending animations are also just...martial arts stuff, and we already have monk. I think adding those animations to SMN would just be awkward.