if Sage healing is tied to its DPS, so many healers who don't DPS wont understand its KIT. I am All for DPSing as a healer, but i don't see the majority on board. i counted 6 DPS spells from the live letter and 1 DPS spell from the Endwalker trailer, 7 in total. I hope they dont change this but they will, if enough people say healers should heal more than DPS and that they feel uncomfortable with their healing tied to DPS. then they will change it, making the job feel boring and stale.
I am Happy SE is taking a chance with Sage because Damage is mitigations and if the jobs around you receive heals as you DPS then its a plus. I know Sage will be the healer for me because I love shield healing, NOCT AST is my main, SCH was my main till SE Nerfed the damage to the ground and nerfed my spread shields, just to allow my clunky pet to stack its baby shields with me.
give them 2 updates before they change Sage.
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09-22-2021, 06:13 AMkobe-sabigive them 2 updates before they change Sage.
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09-22-2021, 06:16 AMinhaledcorn
I hope SE ignores those players and tells them to "git gud" and the community promptly kicks the 0 DPS Sage.
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09-22-2021, 06:43 AMUltaniku
DPS as heals is very appealing. I played a disc priest for the longest so I’m very into this and with scholar having been my main....I feel like I at least need to give SGE a good and proper try. It looks so flashy.
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09-22-2021, 07:07 AMkobe-sabiSE cant say that, the casual crowds keeps their pockets full. they should just tell them, we heard the cry of jobs become stale and we are trying something new for the players who really want to challenge themselves and feel rewarded when properly executing said actions. PLZ look forward to playing SageQuote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
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09-22-2021, 08:22 AMinhaledcorn1) Pretty sure Yoshi-P did tell people to get good once in regards to DPSing for healers and savage content.Quote:
Originally Posted by kobe-sabi
2) SE only cares about balancing jobs around how they perform in Savage content. If the casuals can't play it but the Savage Raiders have it cracked, they probably won't mess with it too much. -
09-22-2021, 08:44 AMkobe-sabiWell, we will seeQuote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
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09-22-2021, 09:25 AMSebazy
I'm hoping the opposite tbh.
We've got 4 healers now, different jobs within the role should encourage varying play styles.
It's why I've always felt that AST should be taken further down the buffs rabbit hole. -
09-22-2021, 09:41 AMBrokentoothMarchI couldn't agree more. The developments with AST, as someone who used to main it once upon a time, were the worst changes I've experienced in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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09-22-2021, 02:54 PMForteNightshadeIronically, I've long thought Astro's card system should be exclusively tied to augmenting its healing kit not unlike what Sage looks to be doing. Keep some damage buff cards separate (Maybe Lord/Lady) and go from there. It would really help diversify the role. Alas, the devs seem intent on making every single job accessible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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09-22-2021, 03:52 PMMilkieTeaThis. Sure, Sage looks to be the DPS Healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
We have a DPS tank already, why not a healer? -
09-22-2021, 04:12 PMGarnix
I think it will depend a lot on the potencies, and on how efficient the non-DPS abilities will be. I think it will be fine, and could actually be a good way to encourage players to try DPSing as healer.
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09-23-2021, 12:28 AMRoeshelIf anything, they do encourage healing while dpsing in the design of every healer. Sage's core mechanic Cardia is not gonna change for the worst. Those who don't want to DPS have a lot of other options.Quote:
Originally Posted by kobe-sabi
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09-23-2021, 05:20 AMTraeSnowI feel this whole "heals tied to dps" is being blown way out of proportion. As far as we know, only one target can receive the heals (Granted, there are still 3-5 skills that we don't know about, but I feel Yoshi would have mentioned if we could turn it into AoE during the live letter). The heal amount is not affected by the damage you deal, it has a set potency of 170...which is actually pretty low. It was healing for 2.5k on a 40k HP Sage. Since tanks will most likely be the target of this, it will heal 2.5k of...estimated 60k HP? 65k?Quote:
Originally Posted by kobe-sabi
The "heals tied to dps" will just cover the bosses' auto attacks in raid, which would be the same as the WHM putting regen on the tank or SCH fairy...it's just a different way to do the same thing.
For normal content, I feel it won't matter if you don't even put up a target...there are plenty of WHM that don't use regen in normal content. -
09-23-2021, 06:24 AMBoizinhoRegen is an excellent heal, but WHMs don't use it because it's on the GCD. Cardia is also more than twice as strong as Embrace is due to pet scaling.Quote:
Originally Posted by TraeSnow
170 potency every 2.5s sounds weak, but it's a Tetragrammaton every 10 seconds. It's more HPS than an AST getting full-strength Essential Dignities exactly on cooldown. It's more regen than you're getting when standing in Sacred Soil with Whispering Dawn on you. Cardia will most likely allow you to just ignore a 1hp tank who just used an invuln and tank swapped. Unless it's Living Dead obviously, but I think everyone is in agreement by now that Living Dead is abject garbage. That's not Cardia's fault. -
09-23-2021, 02:23 PMJadkayTo me, it look more than the game is designed for all jobs to be DPS first and then having some jobs can do something more than others, like a blue dps pressing a defensive cooldown for a tb or a green dps weaving something to take care of the life of the party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnix
Don't get me wrong, it's not I doesn't like this and anyway the game in is actual state could not support a fully tank/heal job but spamming 1 dot every 30s and 1 gcd dps 75% of the time if not more is really boring. I got more fun having to adjust to random people in daily roulettes than savage content. And like some people, I'm doing savage just for the gear. I tried the 'optimisation runs' in the previous tiers, pretty much succeed in it and then what ? Nothing, I don't know to play better, I just got a proper team and a timelined fight to remember. -
09-23-2021, 06:31 PMRoeshelCardia's HPS is stronger than that of a Regen. Cardia has 170 HPS per GCD cast which is affected by stats like spell speed. Regen has a fixed value of 200 HPS once every 3s. Every 30s during combat Regen will heal for 2k HPS, while Cardia will heal for 2040HPS at 2.5s GCD. When people get BiS and increase their spell speed that value will increase even more. With WHM I have 2.29s Cast times on gcds, a Sage with 2k spell speed will be able to get 2210HPS out of Cardia every 30s. Add another offensive GCD cast and in just 32s you will have healed the HPS of 2 GCD Regens. And this is can be done while you are DPSing. This has a strong compounding effect in prolonged fights. Aside from the fact that Cardia is not even a GCD spell, in just 5 mins fights having Cardia activated equals the usage of 18 to 19 Regens.Quote:
Originally Posted by TraeSnow
Cardia is overpowered which makes Sage already overpowered. It can single-handedly sustain the MT through any tankbuster in casual content. It also offers perfect sustainability for the MT in savage which allows them to divert all of their Adder's Gall resources to AoE oGCDs. And the thing is, Sage's AoE oGCD is not weak at all. They have:
Exsocol - instant 400 potency 30s
Keracol - 600 over 15 - HoT 30s + 10% Dmg reduction buff
Holyism - instant 300 potency 60s
Physis - 700 over 21s - HoT 60s
Physis II - 1000 HoT over 15s - HoT + 10% Healing magic buff.
None of these have damage attached to them like Assize and Earthly Star which means that they are going to be better utilized even in speed runs. Sage has between 2400 to 2600 AoE cure potency oGCD per minute which is more than what AST has currently and we are not counting Physis II(1000 AoE per 3 mins) and Pneuma (400 AoE per 2 mins). Sage is not losing against AST in ST healing either, for a whole minute they can dish out 4080 healing potency passively without even using an oGCD ability and that's assuming they are not with BiS. And we are not considering the usage of Soteria which double the HPS restored for 10s, perfect for recovering from tank busters. The only exception where Cardia would be weak is when you have Dark Knight eating tank buster with invulnerability. -
09-23-2021, 08:15 PMAiscence
The good thing about cardia is that the regen potency is better than other regens or the fairy (and more controllable than this one) ... if it's on someone. And we all know that we'll get so many sage not using cardia, the same way people dont partner as DNC.
The fairy at least do the passive regen, even if you are just an "only physick healer", which, if you are an only diagnosis healer ... you dont even have. -
09-24-2021, 12:36 AMIedarus
One thing I noticed in the LL after looking at it again was that it looks like the purple pip was received after the tank got hit with an ability while shielded. By the looks of it, Sage gets rewarded with a DPS ability for successfully shielding damage.
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09-24-2021, 02:45 AMMsTanya
It's a reward with a very high cost. I'm trying to imagine when if ever I hardcast an adlo or a succor due to the fact that shielding is so unnecessary currently in most cases. The fact that toxicon is just an instant cast dosis potency wise (on a single target) means you're essentially giving up 330 potency of damage plus 170 potency subtracted from your actual heal due to how cardia works.
Unless they add more than just the one skill we know of to the adders bite gauge, then its likely to be a very seldom used thing. Even in a dungeon your spam aoe ability is 170 potency to all and toxicon gets halved beyond the first. It would be better attack wise to just mindlessly mash dyscrasia (and keep the cardia regen going) rather than use that gcd shield followed by toxicon. All of this is assuming an ogcd shield doesn't exist for sage that would provide a bite stack. If one does that could change things and allow for weaving every now and then but currently seems very meh overall. Hurry up embargo I need more infooooooooo xD. -
09-24-2021, 03:16 AMRoeshelSage has oGCD shield. They have the cubic barrier on 120sec cd. And after using the barrier they gain 5 stacks of something.Quote:
Originally Posted by MsTanya
It looks that the AoE version of the Cubic Barrier overwrites the stacks and the effect of the ST barrier. There was also another ability that looked like a self-buff for 30s on 90s cd. Probably healing-related. The 5 stacks buff seems to get absorbed as HP when the timer runs out. -
09-24-2021, 04:03 AMToodlesElNoodles
What makes me laugh is Zenos RPR LB3 couldn’t break a 200 potency shield.
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09-24-2021, 05:19 AMBoizinhoThat's certainly how it feels using a melee LB honestly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToodlesElNoodles
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09-24-2021, 05:30 AMRoeshelMelee LB3 in Savage is actually something like 1/4 Crit Misery. I was surprised when I saw the numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boizinho
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09-24-2021, 09:58 AMKageTokageThe stacks apparently trigger either when you use an offensive action or when they time out (In which case the healing from every remaining stack gets applied simultaneously).Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeshel
So I assume you'll seldom ever have to actually stop DPSing between that and its other OGCD heals. -
09-25-2021, 12:44 AMAbsurdityThat's on those terrible healers to fix, not on the devs to "fix" job mechanics out of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiscence
I'm not gonna be shocked if they "fix" any and all complexity out of Sage by 7.0 but their constant need to design a lot of the game around the absolute lowest common denominator will come back to bite them at some point. -
09-25-2021, 02:03 PMMindioriAt this stage in the games life not really. The dumbing down, is always carefully financially measured. If 'difficulty' sold as well as brainless, meaningless handouts to make pea brained imbeciles feel good - we'd not be in this predicament. Instead its simply good business. Wait for the MMO veterans to move on, or be pushed out by change - and then market to the queue with the subzero IQ. The likes moving over enmasse now. They thrive on nothing being a challenge so that they can prepare their next tweet displaying their 'achievement' and hoarding likes from fellow specimens. Thats the market at this point. So it would be rather the opposite. Adding any challenge beyond cry babies first MMO would lose them custom. These people can't handle effort, putting it in would lose them money. You aren't wrong long term away from game though. Intelligence is dwindling everywhere in these mediums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
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09-28-2021, 06:17 PMSaefinn
It's a tired old argument. I think if people aren't confident DPSing and healing, the vast majority of content is accommodating of you, so go for it.
Just don't push this idea that "healers are healers therefore they should only heal" because it's nonsense and is in conflict with how this game is designed and what we actually need is more variety in the DPS offered to healers and it looks like SGE might be a step in the right direction in that respect, but my fear on it is that somehow, it'll still end up mostly spamming 1 ability.
Let's not ruin this by complaining about healer DPS, because it's not going to stop unless the devs completely overhaul the game's design (and it has nothing to do with job design) and the reasons for that is:
-> The game is VERY DPS orientated. Performance is measured by your DPS contribution. Every job is incentivized to maximize their DPS.
-> The game throws in DPS checks and enrage timers, which requires good DPS to pass, and it's not just in high-end content either, how many of us have been in parties that wipe to the DPS check in Titania Normal Mode? How many of us have been in progression parties where the boss enrages at 1 or 2% health?
-> Encounters are scripted and that means they're predictable and the healing frequency is low enough to allow people to get low, to plan your heals and maximize your DPS. We even have spells that accommodate that approach (Excogitation, Benediction, Earthly Star etc) - this means if mistakes are make, costs are higher
It is not going to matter if your healer is spamming Broil ad infinitum with occasional Biolysis or is doing Bio -> Miasma -> Bio II -> Bane -> Shadowflare -> Miasma II -> Virus -> Broil
I'd even argue that with the former that your healer is more likely to tunnel vision and go "oops, I forgot I was healing", because I get it with the former but never got it with the latter. I've also noticed my co-healer (who has been with me since ARR) started doing it too.
And many of us wouldn't want to overhaul the game design just to accommodate this and it's a bit extreme when all we need to do is accept that healers will DPS and just like tanks and DPS they too will make mistakes or errors of judgment. There's things to mitigate that but ultimately, it's always going to be an issue. The fact I hear the complaint more with the DPS rotation being practically a 1 button spam than I did when healer DPS was allegedly too complex to me suggests we might as well embrace the DPS option.
A healer-DPS hybrid can actually be an interesting concept to play. This game's design favours this approach.
For healers to truly have a healing focus, mechanics need to be more random and damage frequency needs to be higher where healers have to write off their DPS aspect and focus on keeping people topped up. No matter how the job is designed it's not going to change this. Unless you remove DPS altogether, then playing a healer outside of group content would be impossible and you'll have your healers twiddling their thumbs 70% of the time or majorly overhealing just to avoid getting too bored. -
09-28-2021, 09:01 PMHanayumi
Sage will likely be one if the most popular healers because it has an interesting array of dps skills. A vast majority of those healers that dont dps much tend to stick to whm, so very very doubtful well see any changes sage.
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09-28-2021, 09:38 PMinhaledcorn
The only thing I hope they change is the DoT, honestly. It being available after buffing yourself is cute, but it seems extra clunky in practicality since the buff is on the GCD. If they either switch the buff to the oGCD or separate the DoT, I think that would make that aspect of Sage a little less clunky.
One thing I would like to see happen, though it probably won't knowing SE, is Bane going Healer cross role at lv15 (with a buff that does 200 pot damage on the initial target and 100 damage to everyone else and spreads all detrimental effects cast by you on target to everyone else hit with a 30s cooldown). This gives healers some easier dps contribution at lower levels, while making it easier to spread DoTs in higher content since, at least for me, I try to DoT everything while the tank is pulling.
Edit: While all the healers will get something out of this, SCH will get extra since it will also spread Chain Strat. -
09-28-2021, 09:59 PMAword3213Isn't this homogenization people are complaining about?Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
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09-28-2021, 11:55 PMSaefinnI actually like this concept, so I hope they don't change it. Why make it work like everybody else's?Quote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
I mean we're literally complaining we have too few buttons to press during our downtime.
SCH goes: Broil -> Biolysis -> Broil -> Broil...
WHM goes: Glare -> Dia -> Glare -> Glare...
SGE goes: Dosis -> Eucrasia -> Eucasia Dosis -> Dosis -> Dosis...
Sure it's not much but it's something.
This button is a useful tool in that it can expand your toolkit without using extra toolbar/crossbar space. -
09-29-2021, 12:37 AMToodlesElNoodles
Hmmm, maybe can simulate the experience with SCH?
Go to Stone,Sky, Sea and spam Physick (since it’s out only 1.5sec cast). Everytime you want to DoT, press ET then hit Biolysis?
I know it won’t simulate the DoT spam. Maybe buy a bunch of cheap food and everytime you want to use Biolysis use the food? -
09-29-2021, 01:33 AMRoeshelEucrasia is on 1s GCDQuote:
Originally Posted by inhaledcorn
Eucrasia Dosis III is on 1.5s GCD
It is made like a normal GCD DoT broken down into two buttons. It is actually a really nice mechanic for Sage. The GCD timing works like the Jutsu of NIN. The mudras are on GCD but with 0.5 recast time. It is the same for Sage. Eucrasia is on GCD but with a lower than usual GCD recast timer.