About The Green Summoner AKA Scholar

I need some one tell me that i play this job wrong. That SCH is good as it is, cuz I cant understand why Yoshi-P said "there is not so much to do with it".

A little disclaimed before I dive in this thread.
I'm an huge fan of XIV. Not an huge fun of the entire saga, cus I played only REVII/XII/XIII and I really love the work that Yoshi P and his dev team have done and are doing for us with XIV.
I'm a fan and I also am a player so the first word that comes in my mind when there are many reworks is: "why?"
I also want to say that this is not a complain about our little green friend, just this big "why" expressed. I'm not a native English speaker, so pardon moi if I'm going to make grammar/spelling errors.

So, this is my experience as a new player with over 3k hours, more than one year of sub who has started from 5.2 with a SCH as a main job.

First of all. Mana management.
In casual contents after a few hits of Art of War mana drops really fast. Having Lucid Dreams in cooldown there is not a real gain like Astro or WHM.
I mean, with Astro you drop your MP at 7k and then pop your LD and your MP raises to 10k, always be casting.
With WHM, I can use LD as well as Thin Air to recover faster and A.B.C.
With SCH I can reach and have an avarage of 5k mp having LD in cd and A.B.C. Maybe the value can change due different situations or different playstyles but the result it's the same. Imho SCH has problems with its MP management.
Doesnt it need any sort of rework, as Astro did?

Faeries.
I did not play the two different types of faeries that once SCH had, so I can't say "it's better, or not".
There are nothing that could be done with them?
At least, dont let the faeries go away when you die. If SCH dies and get a res, it's completely useless untill you have a free room where you can spend one GCD to summon your faerie and hope your LD is up. And then you can't do anything cus everything you can use needs your MP, but you havent enough MP to do anything helpfull.
Dont die then, first rule. Fine
But why this job punishes the mistakes so badly? If I die with Astro, i can recover myself with Essential Dignity and use the 2nd stack to heal my tanks if needed w/ using any MP.
With WHM i can Bene and this job has the strongest healings over other jobs so there's not so much to worry about that.

Toolkit.
Maybe it's the funniest toolkit over all healers, in a certain way, but why I need to use so many spells to get a decent heals or shields?
To maximaze Adlo I need to fish for Catalyze or use Recitation once per 90 secs, and if I want the best shields on my party i need to use Adlo-Cata comb'd with Deployment Tactics.
With Astro I can simple use my Neuctral Sect on my Apected Helios and I have everything I need, plus a cup of coffee!
The only skill really usefull on SCH imho is Seraph. If I need big heals, i put her out, smash my kb and et voila', till the next mechanic.

These are just a few exaples of what really makes me mad when I play this job. I dont want to be arrogant and say "this works better than that", but if I am not wrong, SCH should be a Tactician Healer. He should be that member of party whose skills synergize with the party. I mean, why not having a SCH that can Hast or Slow? or Why not having a SCH that can buff, in a similiar way that Astro do? Why not having a SCH that can extend the raid buffs? Why not having a SCH that can put some different DoTs on enemies?
And, the really BIG why comes now:
WHY Peloton on SCH?
We have already got three jobs that can use this skills. It's useless skill tho, unless you are running like a rabbit trough your quests or making faster an instance.
Why not giving to those jobs this upgrade to Peloton and let the skill works in combat?
Why we need a duplicate of that skill on a Healer Job that imho has need a lot of reworks.

Yoshi P stated that they are willing to follow the Shadowbringer flow. In short, let the gameplay more user friendly. In fact, in ShB they removed some portions of the previous gamplay to make simpler. Changed the way how tank stances worked, removed the TP bar for all jobs, just to say a few.
Also, with Endwalker we saw some jobs with their skills become traits (Blood Dragon for DRG, Inochan for BLM i.e.).
Why SCH got Peloton? How this skill may be usefull for who wants play SCH? The only thing that comes up in my mind is that maybe we'll get a gigantic boss arena where gap closer (incresed to 20y for tanks btw) can't bring you faster enough to avoid mechanics. Or, mostly Yoshi-P and devs team has no ideas what to do whit SCH and just they threw dices and let the fate decided.

So, main SCHs dont get mad with me for this post. I know I'm not good with this job and it's all my fault. everytime I find a SCH in PF I'm like " Man, this guy must be a pro guy" and if you have any advices to give me to be better and have fun with this job, I'll be glad to read everthing. I've just found that what was presented at the Live Letter LXVI for the SCH wasn't enough to justify its existence.
Hope you have fun in game! <3

just some misconception.. you did NOT get Peloton. its an in COMBAT state, not for running faster between mobs...

if you watch the vid closely, there seems to be something going on with mp management and the gummies as well. while there was no MAJOR new shiney for sch, I doubt the handwringing is completely justified.

so.. just to be clear.. YOU DID NOT GET PELOTON

personally, I would love a skill on my whm that lets me run faster in combat.... save me hitting sprint so much

It's a combat speed buff so it does fit the "tactician" idea but I think only abilities that currently fit that is excog and chain stratagem

But for the life of me I can't think of a use for this abilities except in dungeons. I'm aware of the damage reduction but it's a useless buff for the most part

Well, you move faster, you have Peloton.
And..okay. Let's say that this combat action is something going on with mp management (i dont know what candies fit the topic, but I'll do some research). Ok, not a real major shiney for the sch as you say...and..? I mean, every jobs were presented with at least two features that are not a combat action that let you move faster and let your MP recover faster. Astro get its MP rework in 5.4, 5.5...dont remember exactly, pardon moi, but it has that kind of change in a PATCH, not at the start of a new expansion.
See my point?
it's a minor rework for MP, well i guess for the scholar is a major rework but as the presentation was what can i expect from SCH in EW? Peloton. yeah you can use in combat...lets call it Sprint then. a sprint that can recover a portion of your MP and has something going on with candies as well.
So, again. Why?
I doubt you can give an answer and my "handwringing" is about why, not what...

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

It's a combat speed buff so it does fit the "tactician" idea but I think only abilities that currently fit that is excog and chain stratagem

But for the life of me I can't think of a use for this abilities except in dungeons. I'm aware of the damage reduction but it's a useless buff for the most part

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As it was presented, also I feel this buff is smth useless, again. It can be good, as you say this Peloton fits the tactician idea but I really would appreciated smth more than Peloton :(

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

First of all. Mana management.

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SCH's MP economy is fine as it is. AF and dumping unneeded aetherflow stacks into Energy Drain is all you need besides the maintenance provided by Lucid Dreaming. If you're talking about running out of MP from AoE spamming in dungeon pulls, it's probably because mobs are dying too slowly. If this happens even AST and WHM can still run out of MP. This isn't just SCH's problem. This is your group's DPS member's problem. They could be freestyling, or single targeting in middle of large pulls.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

Faeries.[...]
Dont die then, first rule. Fine
But why this job punishes the mistakes so badly?

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• WHM = Loses built up Lilies (equates 1000 MP heals each & Misery); Thin Air has a rather long cooldown which makes recovery harder if they happened to go cooldown fairly soon before you die. WHM has the priciest MP cost from their healing spells and quite limited amount of abilities that also have longer cooldowns. If even LD are on cooldown then you're a sitting duck.
• AST = Loses built up seals (your party is missing a valuable raidwide buff, suffers an overall lowered dps). If LD is on cooldown then your Draw 30s should be coming back fairly soon. Besides, AST has plethora of powerful healing abilities with decently short cooldown period.
• SCH = Loses AF stack, fae gauge, & fairy. MP however is still not the glaring issue here. Between Lucid Dreaming, Aetherflow, and dumping Energy Drains, it's fairly easy to gain back large amount of MP from dying. The only gripe here is to summon back your fairy. A lot of SCH's healing comes from their free of MP cost-heals and it's on ridiculously short cooldowns. So I'm unsure what do you mean by "everything you can use needs your MP" when that's more like a dying WHM's issue.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

Toolkit.

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SCH contributes their heals in a rather subtler way than the other two healers, but they still heal a disgusting amount.
About shielding however: if you haven't noticed already, SE categorizes SCH as a "Barrier Healer" which literally translate into having an "on-demand shielding spell" (Adloquium & Succor) rather than "effective shielding abilities" (Nocturnal Celestial Opposition, Diurnal Celestial Intercession, Divine Benison, Seraph). As you learn to be better however, you will notice players are trying to avoid using their "on-demand spells" because why would they, when they can keep damaging & weave an effective abilities to do the same job, a.k.a. keeping party alive & healthy? Healers are there to keep the party alive, not topping everybody to 100% all the time.

1) The movement speed is just a "bonus" on the new AoE shield. (And the effect could probably kill people and be removed/replaced from the game at some point through the expansion.)

2) And, again, he did not say "there is not so much to do with it". The translator said "there was not much we could have changed significantly". Which doesn't mean it did not get some of the QoL improvements that you are requesting.
Actually, this was probably just said because it came after AST, which definitely got significant changes, and before Sage which is brand new. So, SCH was really in the worst spot here, where in reality, it got just as many changes as white mage did, if not more. For WHM they said that "the transition should be smooth" which basically means the same thing, but with other words.

SCH will not become the "DPS healer" from previous expansions, because 5.0 combat system is the new standard (which is a whole different issue from all the recent SCH complaints IMO), and also probably because they seem to want this to be Sage's archetype, in a similar way they will probably add a new magic DPS in 7.0 for people who will want a DoT mage back. But it will definitely get QoL upgrades. The shorter cast time for broil is already one of them. So is the change to Fae Blessing not costing gauge anymore.

We also don't even know what they did to Energy drain yet so kinda hard to tell what the impact on MP would be.
Actually we don't even know if/how any of the SCH gauge is going to be changed. It is literally the only job in the whole trailer for which they did not show the changes made to the gauge aside from the fact that Fae Blessing no longer consumes it.
SCH obviously had the worst showcase in this trailer and maybe in the live letter itself too (which was also due to a bad choice of word from either Yoshi-P or the translator). But it doesn't mean anything on how it got improved or worsened.

People focus way too much on the "no significant changes" part, instead of focusing on what really matters:
- "We made adjustments so that they are leaning more towards the barrier type of healer". I know people meme on this whole heal vs shield thingy because Sage has a lot of regens. But this basically means that they probably adjusted Scholar's toolkit quite a bit.
- "Updating the behavior of the pet". Again probably a nice QoL on which no details were given.
- They said the most "unique" change is the movement buff. Which I can imagine is true. But it also means there are more "generic" changes which we know nothing about.
- "Powerful enhancement that can be targeted to a single party member." -> they specifically mentioned this one. It is unclear if this is in addition to the single target buffs mentioned for all healers or not.

In short: nothing is known aside from the fact that the job didn't get fully reworked because it didn't need to be.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

Why not having a SCH that can buff, in a similiar way that Astro do?

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So that it doesn't step on Astrologian's job identity. SE wants every job to be unique and feel different.

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Why not having a SCH that can extend the raid buffs?

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Because extending damage buffs would unbalance content a lot. Just 5 extra seconds of 5 stacked up raid buffs could make a big difference to how they scaled an enrage timer.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

First of all. Mana management.
In casual contents after a few hits of Art of War mana drops really fast. Having Lucid Dreams in cooldown there is not a real gain like Astro or WHM.

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I do run out of mana sometimes in a dungeon with a tight sync like Amaurot when avoiding Piety, but there are others tools to restore it than just Lucid Dreaming like Aetherflow and Energy Drain. Maybe the mana cost will be less, we don't have all the information yet.

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At least, dont let the faeries go away when you die.

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This is slightly annoying and it's easy to forget your pet isn't there until you need your pet abilities.

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But why this job punishes the mistakes so badly? If I die with Astro, i can recover myself with Essential Dignity and use the 2nd stack to heal my tanks if needed w/ using any MP.
With WHM i can Bene and this job has the strongest healings over other jobs so there's not so much to worry about that.

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Aetherflow then Excogitation.

Never take an MMO developer at their word...ever. That's MMO 101 stuff. Secondly. He might not like healers to begin with. This is another common problem. Many developers for various MMO's, simply don't like making healing fun, or outright dislike the class. We saw this in WoW with priests and druids, in City of Heroes - Empath Defenders. Sometimes, the developer/design team just don't like a certain class....this always seems to be healers. So they give a strong healing output/dmg mitigation and leave it alone for years. Sure they'll add a power or two and nifty shiny ability, but that's it.

There's a reason the next healer class has swords..../facepalm

I want to ask Yoshi:
WHY did you leave the SCH so underwhelming and devoid of dps? It went from being one of the most compelling jobs in 4.0 to absolutely unbearable. Do you even play this job? Casting "broil" 10,000 times a week feels horrible!!

The XIV dev team isn't creative. That's the only excuse for saying something like 'there's not much to do with it'.

They could give back the 10 or so abilities they removed from it, just as a start. So many things they could change or do too.

Because bringing back things from the past is obviously a lot more creative.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

Because bringing back things from the past is obviously a lot more creative.

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Well I do think that "bio warfare" with DOTs and debuffs fits the tactician theme for the job. Maybe give them 5 different DOTs that have debuff components, together amount to 150 potency (30 per), and Bane to spread them.
That makes the DOTs weak if applied single and leads to a ramp up time for SCH to do relevant damage, hence fits the strategist job fantasy.
If that's what Scholar gets, it has no need for a direct damage nuke anymore either, so there you have a pretty good concept for a more DPS-leaning healer that isn't quite a DPS, but does have a meaningful chunk of their gameplay revolve around DPS and debuffing.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

SCH's MP economy is fine as it is. [...] it's probably because mobs are dying too slowly. If this happens even AST and WHM can still run out of MP.

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Well, with Astro and WHM I never had MP's problems. And I play them in the same way. Maybe everytime I've run a dungeon with SCH I had a low dps. Still when I play SCH my feelings are having smth heavy in my hands.

I agree with what you wrote about WHM, AST and SCH differences.
However. If I use my AE stacks to recover my MP, then how I heal my party?
I found my self many times try to recover from my own mistakes and yes with WHM which more than any other depends on its MP I found easier to recover than SCH. I find AST be still the best in such scenario

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

SCH contributes their heals in a rather subtler".

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Merci beaucoup monsieur, this could be a good point to start ^^. I'll do some experiments

We don't even know the ALL skills yet, all they did was a bad designed trailer of the new animations. There could be some major changes to existing skills and buffs.
Scholar is said to have a heavy buff skill, the peloton you describe is actually a mitigation buff.
What we all should be concerned about is, what is going to happen with the useless faerie gauge? The current skill kit is useless and Dissipation needs to be removed or reworked desperately.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

WHY Peloton on SCH?

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Using what's talked over in the Live Letter when going over Scholar https://youtu.be/WSGdMv72ghI?t=14972
The way I understood what they said, it's actually a combination of Troubadour/Tactician/Shield Samba and Peloton, reducing damage taken and increasing movement speed.

And they mention having some other new single target buff they didn't show off.


Also, the two different fairies...
The current Fairy skills (Whispering Dawn and Fey Illumination) used to be Eos' skills.
The only one missing is Fey Covenant, which gave 20% magic def. Would probably be 10% nowadays, in line with Heart of Light and Dark Missionary.

Selene, in the place of those used to have 3 completely different skills
Silent Dusk, a 1 sec silence, which would nowadays be an interrupt.
Fey Caress, an AoE Esuna
Fey Wind, 3% Skill/Spell Speed party buff for 30s.

A quick note about healers and deaths/KOs. SCH is the only healer that has an advantage, as the fairy is not affected by the brink of death debuff.