Ascian Masks on Gaius’s belt: Fandaniel and….?

I didn’t see this in the top 3 pages, but has anyone figured out who the second mask is?


Looking at all the Ascian masks, it is clear they are based on the Zodiac.

Nabriales is Scorpio
Igeyorhm is Sagittarius,
Lahabrea is Pisces, but his mask seems generic because they probably hadn’t decided on this motif yet when he was around. Or, plot twist, the Lahabrea we killed wasn’t Lahabrea at all! He seems to be connected to Pandemonium…after all.
Fandaniel is Leo which suggests one of the two masks is his.

That leaves the one mask on Gaius’s belt. I guess it looks something like the underside of a crab (Cancer)… so maybe Pashtarot?

Or is it a ram with curled horns around the top, for ram (Capricorn), so maybe Deudalaphon?

The speculation I've seen says they're Fandaniel and Deudalaphon, using the 'looks feline' and 'looks horned' logic, although that's all basically just vibes. Hell, we don't even know for sure one is Fandaniel's (although I personally assume it is, so that he and Gaius can have that 'wait I remember you' moment) But, for the record, the ones we've seen no mask for are:

-Fandaniel (Leo)
-Emmerololth (Aquarius)
-Deudalaphon (Capricorn)
-Altima (Virgo)
-Pashtarot (Cancer)

For the record, we only saw half of Loghrif's (Aries), and of course Emet-Selch's (Gemini) only in elaborate boss form.

Now, out of those, we can reasonably rule out Emmerololth, who died on the Isle of Val at some point in 2.0/2.x. So reasonably, we're down to Fandaniel and the others we haven't seen. But there's something to point out there: since we haven't seen them, why does it matter who it is? Gaius didn't have the capacity to permakill them, so whoever it is, they're still alive. And since we don't know anything about any of them... well, what difference does it make if it was Deudalaphon or Altima?

That's not being dismissive, that's legitimately asking the question to spur on discussion. If we know absolutely nothing about every single option, what value is there in speculation beyond being eventually proven wrong or right?

I don't believe Gaius would have the know how to perma-kill an Ascian. He may off a body they're using but that's about it, imo.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

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That's not being dismissive, that's legitimately asking the question to spur on discussion. If we know absolutely nothing about every single option, what value is there in speculation beyond being eventually proven wrong or right?

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Truth be told I’m just a big nerd that likes studying. I like to apply things I’ve learned to places, even if ultimately I’m just wasting my time. Rabbit holes are fun!

For this specific bit,its’ absolutely tin foil hat territory, but I like to do a bit of story speculation; I think there is a lot to extract from their FF12 lore or real life name origin.

As in, for Elidabus, his constellation is Ophiuchus has a star Sabik (which we have seen and I have thoughts about). We also have the companion constellation, whose brightest star is Unukalhai.

Not that it NEED connect of course, but SE is known to pull inspiration from myth.

Capricorn has a lot going on and a lot of names associated (even Typhon is loosely connected).
I also remember Cancer has many connections to the moon in several ancient religions…so there is also that.

Basically just nerding out and seeing what others might think :)

I'm always eager to challenge the conclusions people are willing to leap to. I'm all for picking favorite interpretations, weighing probabilities, highlighting logical inferences, etc. but prematurely concluding things is difficult for me.

I appreciate that we're going as far as, "That mask looks feline, so Fandaniel is a solid guess, but we don't know it for sure." Gaius does mention that his quarry in the Burn got away. Perhaps he'd only had that mask on his belt for a short time, having just ganked Fandaniel's vessel, and he jumped into Asahi's body on Maxima's crashed ship while we were dealing with the Imperials. Perhaps. But we don't know for sure whose masks those are.

Likewise, though... We figured out a way to kill Nabriales in 2.5, and some-the-hells-how Galuf knew enough to dunk Emmerololth (even as a Hail Mary) as far back as 2.2. By 4.5, Gaius is so knowledgeable about what the Warrior of Light and Ascians have been up to, HE tells US about the hierarchy, HE tells US about the true relationship between original and risen sundered, HE tells US that Emet-Selch is a hitherto unknown third Original. He'd gathered Lahabrea was dead. He knew of Nabriales's attack on the Rising Stones. He identifies on his own the Elidibus has taken Zenos's body for himself. Obviously, he was mostly just showing up to give a PowerPoint presentation from the Dev. Team about the latest round of adjustments to the lore... but are we so easily concluding that he cannot have possibly identified a way to utilize his intelligence to trap and shear the aether of an Ascian soul? A difficult task, yes. But we didn't kill Lahabrea, either, and he was an Original. I've got the door open that at least one of those masks might be a real risen-sundered kill, if for no other reason than SE seems to be rushing them into the woodchipper as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I've got the door open that at least one of those masks might be a real risen-sundered kill, if for no other reason than SE seems to be rushing them into the woodchipper as fast as possible.

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I'll take this to its heartbreaking extreme. Though I can't remember the source for this claim, I believe someone once mentioned that several of the Ascian Overlords inexplicably used the Lesser Ascian models, complete with generic black masks. And Gaius has not two, but five Ascian masks on his person: two red and three black. Because of that there's the possibility that Gaius hasn't just offed one Overlord, but up to five. Now, the known deceased Overlords are Nabriales, Igeyorhm, Lahabrea, Emmerololth, Mitron, Lohgrif, Emet-Selch, and Elidibus. That's eight, and with five more masks, well...

Fandaniel is still alive. But there's a distinct and very unfortunate chance that he's the only Overlord remaining at this point.

EDIT: To explain. There are two branches of thought on this. Emmerololth was around as late as patch 2.3, commenting on our victory over every primal up to Ramuh. But the Eureka plotline would later reveal that she died somewhere around patch 2.1, rendering her very first appearance a plot hole. It's possible that filling in this plot hole will retroactively be the reason Gaius was carrying five masks. Fandaniel was his latest quarry, but he never succeeded in catching him, and one of the masks instead belongs to Emmerololth.

Alternatively, one of the masks is Fandaniel's, and he just... escaped Gaius regardless. Either way, the result is potentially the same: Fandaniel's the only one left, errant Emmerololth be damned I guess.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I'll take this to its heartbreaking extreme.

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I love exploring this part because I sincerely believe that everyone has a different idea of how many Ascians are even dead.

The offending cutscenes here are 2.0 and 2.3. In 2.0, you see 14 black-robed Overlords (with shoulder armor and hoods down). In 2.3, you see what appear to be the same 14 black-robed Overlords (plus Elidibus), but with hoods up, and black-masks standing in for anyone whose red-mask wasn't ready yet (except they forgot to, or maybe even could not, activate the shoulder armor for reasons unknown).

2.0 we get Lahabrea's mask.
2.1 we get Elidibus's mask.
2.4 we get Nabriales's mask, 2.5 he dies
3.0 we get Igeyorhms mask, she dies. So does Lahabrea.
3.2 to 3.4 we're told about Mitron dying but don't see his mask.
4.x we just get told Emmerololth died in 2.2 but she was in a 2.3 cutscene so...???
4.4 we get two random new red-masks on Gaius's belt
5.0 they're just like, "So hey btw Logrif died with Mitron" as if they're trying to get rid of more Ascians faster, we get Emet's alleged mask from his final form.
Eden eventually gives up Mitron and Loghrif's masks.

But then in that 5.0 mix we get the news that Ascians can be re-raised. Anyone who's been paying attention immediately asks, "Is that how Emmerololth was back?" but then what about Nabriales? Igeyorhm? Another Mitron and Loghrif? Why not re-raise them, too? lol.

I suspect based on past story-telling that they decided where the rest of the Ascians are (even if the answer is just "not here, used later") during the 4.x era, and put those two masks there deliberately. Whether it was to rush two more into the grave I'm not sure. What if the supposed-obviousness of Fandaniel's mask is meant to foreshadow that in 6.0 he has a partner?

Now, 5.0 tells us there were only 14 Ascians to start with, and Azem was never risen into an overlord. So we've got two extra people in 2.0, already. Somewhere between 2 and 4 extras in 2.3 depending on whether Emmerololth was supposed to be dead and Emet-Selch was supposed to be napping.

SE probably thinks we think we're down to "just" Fandaniel, Halmarut, Pashtarot, Altima, and Deudalaphon. And then one or two of those might be dead already. (And what I'd give to just gank them all in Endwalker and be done with it, at this point). But ... the math could be... anything.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

But then in that 5.0 mix we get the news that Ascians can be re-raised. Anyone who's been paying attention immediately asks, "Is that how Emmerololth was back?" but then what about Nabriales? Igeyorhm? Another Mitron and Loghrif? Why not re-raise them, too? lol.

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... Do the sundered Ascians know they can be "re-raised", as such? Do they believe themselves expendable compared to their unsundered brethren? With Lahabrea dead, Emet-Selch napping (??), Elidibus doing whatever it is he does, do we know if they could be brought back?

And weren't the sundered Ascians "raised" by the usage of their memories etched in stone? Which seemingly disappeared alongside Elidibus. They might not have a way to replenish their ranks, as it were.

Unless I misinterpreted that.

The re-raise is a great and frightening concept. Like, the art for Pandemonium shows a very healthy Lahabrea and the “m” in pandemonium is even stylized to resemble his mark.

I was never really convinced he was dead to be honest. Yes he got “eaten” by Nidhogg’s eye, but I’m not sure the eye has the same function as the auracite…and even then the auracites needed to be destroyed, which technically Nidhogg’s eyes never were destroyed so much as transmuted into a primal, then possessed by Zenos..then the aether released back.

For all we know Lahabrea is inside Zenos, or his aether was simply released.

…plot twist, Lahabrea is Zenos’s voidsent reaper companion ;)

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

4.x we just get told Emmerololth died in 2.2 but she was in a 2.3 cutscene so...???

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So, Emmerololth is... a really weird one (as well as being my favorite Ascian to talk about), and it ultimately comes down to exactly where you place your faith in the writers that these facts contradict or not. We don't actually have the best idea of relative timeframes between Galuf's scheme, the Ascian roundtable where she speaks, and the actual events of 2.x we're present for. But since our knowledge of the Isle of Val's events are second-hand both ways (learning it dropped off the map by messenger, then learning how it happened from Galuf's writings), it's difficult to tell what happened and when. Maybe Galuf's plan took longer than we thought.

So the question starts becoming, which sequence of events do you believe: the assumed one in 2.x where Emmerololth returns after Galuf's plan, thereby asserting that the death didn't 'take', or the Galuf writing from 4.55 that implies that it was a pretty solid kill and the only worry afterwards is actually Eureka? Frustratingly, none of the rest of the game helps; after we murk Nabriales, Lahabrea and Elidibus act like that was unexpected, but that could either be read as surprise it happened or surprise that WE did it. And the 2.3 roundtable is the last time we get an Ascian 'group shot', so we haven't been able to do a headcount.

Personally, I'm leaning towards 'Emmerololth is dead', because on the writing angle it's a rather more specific--and chiefly, more recent--decision. 2.3 was basically just pulling names out of a hat for the scene, and chances are the writers didn't really have reason to believe they should leave a chair empty. But in 4.55, the modern writing team and their aim towards the endgame of this part of the story had clearly started to coalesce; they probably weren't thinking about Endwalker in 2014, but they probably were in 2019.

But at the same time... not every Ascian spoke in that roundtable. The only completely unmet ones that speak there are Emmerololth and Altima. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to have, say, Deudalaphon die on Val instead, and none of this discussion would be happening. But they specifically picked one of the very few unaccounted-for Ascians that actually had a line after Val's disappearance. Either that's just really bad luck that would've been solved by some back-reading, or they specifically set up this discrepancy.

So maybe my stance isn't 'Emmerololth is dead', so much as 'Emmerololth died, and that part is important'. We're going to Sharlayan, after all; if any part of the Eureka storyline is ever going to suddenly become relevant again (and it wouldn't be the first time, Eureka is full of other plots' plot threads), it is going to become relevant there. Or even... well, we already know the normal raids are bringing back one dead Ascian.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

5.0 they're just like, "So hey btw Logrif died with Mitron" as if they're trying to get rid of more Ascians faster, we get Emet's alleged mask from his final form.
Eden eventually gives up Mitron and Loghrif's masks.

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And sorry for double-posting, but this is also oversimplified; while we learned about Loghrif and Mitron in 5.0, we actually learned about their deaths before then. Ardbert tells us he killed Ascians in 3.4, right after Xelphatol, we just never learned any names--or in fact, any numbers beyond 'a plurality'. Only in 5.0 did we learn it was specifically Loghrif and Mitron--and even then, in 5.4 we learned Ardbert is so bad at killing Ascians that his attempt to kill Mitron was an apocalyptic backfire.

So if we count them, Heavensward is actually the expansion with the most stated Ascian kills, at four (Loghrif, Mitron, Igeyorhm, Lahabrea) compared to Shadowbringers' three (Emet-Selch, Elidibus, Mitron again) And then both ARR and Stormblood at one (Nabriales and Emmerololth), because apparently we only get to really put the boot to one apocalyptic supremacist regime at a time.

Re: Emmerololth: I know the gist of it, but specifically how was she killed? (I did not do Eureka).

I'm of the understanding she was sucked into the lifestream and...what's the word.. torn asunder?

I mean, if she just got sucked into the lifestream, is it really impossible to pull her out? Emet-Selch pulled Y'shtola from there like it was no big deal.

Of course, speculation, but we also have to consider the narrator (in this case Galuf) is wrong in what his assumptions. Yeah, it is easier to just go with "She's dead!" and that honestly is likely the case..certainly for her corporeal body anyway...but I also wouldn't be shocked if both she and Lahabrea are still alive in some manner.

..also, isn't Loghrif Gaia, just Gaia has decided to live her current life/suppress her Ascian memories? If Gaia were to die wouldn't she just reincarnate/give another ascian a chance to reawaken her? I mean, we saw Mitron was able to awaken her at least somewhat, so it's not like only the 3 Unsundered are capable of "reawakening" a sundered ascian.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Stuff about Emmerololth and Loghrif

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First of all (since I have less to say about it): Yes, Gaia was Loghrif. What seemed to happen is that she died like, say, Nabriales did, and her soul was reincarnated nearly a century later on the First--where Mitron messed with her memories constantly until we find her at Eden. Yes, she will probably reincarnate if she dies, but she wouldn't have Loghrif's memories when she does, and the notion of an Ascian giving them to her... well, I feel like only Mitron really wanted to (and possibly may have been the only one close enough to without the crystal), and he's dead, too. The soul crystals with their memories are presumed lost after Elidibus took them into the Crystal Tower, so even if an Ascian comes back, they probably don't have access to them.

As for Emmerololth, the actual wording used by Galuf's notes:

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Having given the order to evacuate, we invoked a powerful magick to drown the entire isle within the Lifestream. Henceforth we combined our strength to defeat the Ascian known as Emmerololth, consigning her essence to be scattered within that raging torrent of aether, never again to reform.

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So basically, they fought in the Lifestream, and after being defeated, her soul was ripped apart by the surroundings. So she was probably in even worse shape than Y'shtola, who was at least mostly healthy when she went in; it wasn't that she's lost in there, it's that she's in pieces in there. If you even could put that back together, she probably went through the worst experience imaginable before then.

But I started thinking about this, and realized something. If they want to wrap up her story, they'll probably do it in Sharlayan (again, where her killers came from). And they'll probably give her a big fancy boss fight. So what sort of fancy boss fight on the level of Hades or Eden could you give to a character whose entire story so far is 'woman who died really painfully'?

...and then I remembered that one of the few enemies we know is in Endwalker has a signature spell literally called 'Pain'.

I think Anima might be Emmerololth, still in agony after being brought back from the most painful death possible.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

... Do the sundered Ascians know they can be "re-raised", as such?

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One of Fandaniel's biggest grievances is that Elidibus treated him like an expendable mook who needed to know his role and shut his mouth. But it looked like we also sent 13 of the 14 stones into oblivion with Elidibus, so we should be safe. If I remember right only the Originals could even work them anyway. Though Mitron seems to be trying to work around it.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

For all we know Lahabrea is inside Zenos, or his aether was simply released.

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This was my theory in early 4.0; that it was actually Lahabrea inside of Zenos and Elidibus was going to come at us sideways from somewhere we didn't expect. Then it was as easy as it looked and they made Emet-Selch a third Original out of nowhere. That seemed like such a massive change to me, especially just outing him as Solus zos Galvus all along. That they went through all that trouble seemed to be to avoid Lahabrea not being dead, so I'm not sure what to think.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

We don't actually have the best idea of relative timeframe

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I base it off of when the surge of energy is detected and the Isle of Val is confirmed gone (both before 2.3). I suspect that Val really was destroyed by Ultima until Eureka came along. Eureka is full of oddities that seem to be trying to tie off plot hooks that weren't attached to anything else. I lean towards Emmerololth is dead, too, though, because otherwise it opens a lot of awkward doors. However, this dev. team is very into addition/alteration-retconning unless a subtraction-retcon is completely unavoidable so they might throw her back in the mix for a hot second, for all I know, lol. At this point it's so weird I wish they would subtraction retcon the old Ascian scenes. Just get in there with a scalpel and make it work.

I don't think Lahabreah survived what Thordan did to him with the eye, but I do suspect the Pandaemonium raid will involve him. It seems strange to me that they included Lahabrea as one of the unsundered if they DIDN'T have some plan to use him again. Unless they just really wanted there to be three unsundered and not just Emet and Elidibus, it felt like a weird thing to have pointed out, and kind of after the fact inflates Laha's importance as I didn't really get the feeling in 2.X/3.0 that he was more important than the other red masked ascians, just the one we dealt with the most.

Plus, there was a cutscene in 2.X somewhere that seemed to suggest that he had his own plan aside from the Zodiark thing, where he says things are moving according to his will and Elidibus corrects him to Zodiark's will. Though this might have just been something they discarded after developing the ascians more behind the scenes or maybe I just read too much into that moment.

I think he 'died' in 3.0 but while Pandaemonium is going to be more original than many prior 8 man raids, that doesn't mean it won't take some cues from past FF games. And if they go with the FF 2 angle, the emperor dying, taking over hell and coming back, they could do something like that with Lahabrea somehow coming back from the dead for one last hurrah in that raid series.

I have to agree I think Lahabrea is dead-dead. We know from the Pandemonium artwork that he'll be involved there but that doesn't mean he's going to be alive during that involvement.

The simplest explanation for the Emmerololth discrepancy is 2.3's was another shard that got raised to the position after the previous one died at Val. "Then what about Mitroin/Loghrif/other dead sundereds?" We haven't gotten an Ascian group shot since then so we don't know that they weren't also replaced.

@Cleretic:

I’m not convinced those soul crystals are the only ones, or that they would have put the “data” to memory unlocks in a single place..or that the memory unlock is even a physical object. Again, if Mitron could do it, it doesn’t necessarily mean others can, but it does imply there may be ways to awaken an memory, even if incomplete.

Emm being Anima is an interesting choice. With Pandemonium being the raid series and seemingly tied to Lahabrea, it could be when they die-die something “other” happens to their essence within the life stream.

@Anonymoose: I’d speculate something along the lines of Lahabrea inside Zenos in the way Nidhogg was in Estenien, not that Lahabrea is piloting the body.

@Pamdemonium talk:

Well, we don’t know a lot of course… but a couple of things do stand out:
In FF2, the master of Pandemonium is “Mateus”; essentially the Emperor of Hell. Lahabrea’s Ivalice zodiac counterpart is Mateus.

If we want to go down a rabbit hole:
We might also know the Devs like to pull from various literature…of note, Milton’s Paradise Lost: the chief architect of Pandemonium is noted as Hephaestus. I’m convinced Lahabrea is Byregot the smith, so this matches my thoughts, though I’m not convinced the Ascians all have “Greek god” names..rather they have traditional names pulled from the Final Fantasy as a whole.

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On Ascian knowledge:

I think the big problem at the end of the day is we are going from a lot of word of mouth (Galuf) and trusting the things we are being told, such as the white auracite/blowing their incorporeal form to oblivion actually kills them and not just “dead until next resurrection”.

Were this the real world I would want lots of confirmation. From the trial series in 5.0 we saw the Garleans just beginning to touch on copy/pasting a consciousness for their Weapon project.

Again, were this real world, I would be very weary that any tech the Garleans were beginning to figure out, the Ascians already have it mastered.

Then again, it is a game… and it’s hard to make a solid story with unreliable narration.

I'm holding out hope for Pandaemonium to be about Lahabrea's LEGACY rather than involve the man himself resurrected (as King of Hell/Pandaemonium/whatever), because... we've already chumped him 3 times and change. He was never quite a "badass" as the narrative tries to portray him after the fact, so his continued off-screen survival just feels memetic at this point.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I'm holding out hope for Pandaemonium to be about Lahabrea's LEGACY rather than involve the man himself resurrected (as King of Hell/Pandaemonium/whatever), because... we've already chumped him 3 times and change. He was never quite a "badass" as the narrative tries to portray him after the fact, so his continued off-screen survival just feels memetic at this point.

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I don't so much 'want' to face him again as I suspect we WILL do so again because otherwise...I struggle to think of why they would specify him as being unsundered so long after his death in 3.0 if they didn't have future plans for him.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I think the big problem at the end of the day is we are going from a lot of word of mouth (Galuf) and trusting the things we are being told, such as the white auracite/blowing their incorporeal form to oblivion actually kills them and not just “dead until next resurrection”.

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Rule of thumb: any character speculating about in-universe mechanics and motivations are undoubtedly correct, unless its presented as an ambiguous mystery to solve.

If a scholarly-like character goes on to detail things intimately and end their speech with "but that's just speculation, tho", assume they're 100% right.

Call it the Law of Conservation of Detail if you will, but its the only way to have story not be a convoluted mess full of red herrings that go nowhere.

Of course, (hard) retcons can also be a factor, but until such a time they contradict what they established, assume things hold true to what is explained to you.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

Rule of thumb: any character speculating about in-universe mechanics and motivations are undoubtedly correct, unless its presented as an ambiguous mystery to solve.

If a scholarly-like character goes on to detail things intimately and end their speech with "but that's just speculation, tho", assume they're 100% right.

Call it the Law of Conservation of Detail if you will, but its the only way to have story not be a convoluted mess full of red herrings that go nowhere.

Of course, (hard) retcons can also be a factor, but until such a time they contradict what they established, assume things hold true to what is explained to you.

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Yep, more or less what I said at the end:

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Then again, it is a game… and it’s hard to make a solid story with unreliable narration.

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Buuuut, then again the devs are practically begging us to ask questions because Lahabrea on Pandemonium, which calls into question a lot of established "Facts".

Wasn't everyone going into a fevered pitch for Lahabrea showing up in the patch artwork for 5.4, only for the Ascians involved to have nothing to do with Lahabrea? I know that the M in Pandemonium is stylized sort of like Lahabrea's Ascian mask, but mayhaps that's just what the dev team wants us to think?

As for the question of whether or not Gaius could truly unmake an Ascian... Hmm...

It seems weird that he'd have more knowledge than the Scions on Ascian's and their hierarchy, without having some means to do them in. I somewhat suspect that Gaius may have gained the ability to manipulate aether on his own or some special power by having been the pilot for the Ultima weapon when it activated the Heart of Sabik. We do know he at least came up with completely new techniques as observed with the technique he used to defeat Valens.

Of course, with what we've been shown and told since he made his debut as Shadowhunter, I've been disappointed. I thought for sure that the Elvaan thaumaturge by his side had perhaps resurrected him, or actually held sway on him magically rather than with a life debt situation.

Upon rewatch of the involved Stormblood cutscenes, it comes to mind that he brought us Alphinaud's body. Then proceeded into his exposition dump, and I had to wonder how much of his info was gained from Alphinaud, but then that opened up further questions. As far as I am aware, Alphinaud has never laid eyes upon an Ascian directly, until Shadowbringers. Of course, he had secondhand info on the likes of Elidibus, Lahabrea, and Nabriales from the Scions' info, yet the way that Gaius talks it's as though Elidibus and his robe of white are common firsthand knowledge for anyone. Nevermind that people without the Echo cannot even see Ascians, unless they make themselves known.

*taps foot impatiently*

I somewhat wonder if we're not in store for a big big big BIG twist with Gaius. Imagine if he'd been under Ascian possession this whole time by Fandaniel's partner. Almost baseless speculation, I know, but it'd go a long way towards explaining how he knows what he knows, and why he seemed so blasé when explaining it to us. It'd fill in so nicely how he really "lived" through Praetorium. And it'd also maybe setup something along the lines of the Telophoroi cleaning house, as well as trying to point us at the Unsundered. It'd also make for the best Ascian actor to date, but I know it's just wishful thinking on my part. Not too mention all the scenes of genuine emotion and what not with him acting against the Ascians' plans well before we got rid of Emet/Elidi etc.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Wasn't everyone going into a fevered pitch for Lahabrea showing up in the patch artwork for 5.4, only for the Ascians involved to have nothing to do with Lahabrea? I know that the M in Pandemonium is stylized sort of like Lahabrea's Ascian mask, but mayhaps that's just what the dev team wants us to think?

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The reason we thought Lahabrea was involved in 5.4 was because they used him as (likely stand-in for Mitron) art right in the corner, barely visible. It's rather different from him being front-and-center, unambiguously, in Pandaemonium, complete with a logo referencing him.

Which, incidentally, I also wish we weren't getting. Lahabrea tried twice to be an interesting antagonist, and failed both times; why are we excited to give him a third, when other characters were much closer to hitting the mark with their one chance?

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

Rule of thumb: any character speculating about in-universe mechanics and motivations are undoubtedly correct, unless its presented as an ambiguous mystery to solve.

If a scholarly-like character goes on to detail things intimately and end their speech with "but that's just speculation, tho", assume they're 100% right.

Call it the Law of Conservation of Detail if you will, but its the only way to have story not be a convoluted mess full of red herrings that go nowhere.

Of course, (hard) retcons can also be a factor, but until such a time they contradict what they established, assume things hold true to what is explained to you.

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I like the way you're putting this, and I agree. It's not a universal rule of fiction (detective stories, for example, absolutely love outright lying to you), but FFXIV is, as a rule, not a game that decides to be flat-out wrong for fun.

Any fact we are told is either correct, or wrong in an interesting way. And if it's the latter, there are always hints; we won't suddenly find out some base fact told to us a few expansions ago is wrong, we will have been given evidence. The reverse is also true: you cannot declare a stated fact to be wrong with absolutely no evidence, because the writers just don't do that. That last part's unrelated and is mostly just my constant minor annoyances at baseless theories, but it's also a useful thing to keep in mind.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The reason we thought Lahabrea was involved in 5.4 was because they used him as (likely stand-in for Mitron) art right in the corner, barely visible. It's rather different from him being front-and-center, unambiguously, in Pandaemonium, complete with a logo referencing him.

Which, incidentally, I also wish we weren't getting. Lahabrea tried twice to be an interesting antagonist, and failed both times; why are we excited to give him a third, when other characters were much closer to hitting the mark with their one chance?

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As much as I want my wild theories to work, I also wouldn't be surprised if Pandemonium turns out to be his legacy of horrors that we have to deal with. Or something where he orchestrated the Telophoroi for some purpose that has now gone wild without a "master". Or, it could just be expanded lore into the 13th shard via Unukalhai/Cylva.

I just hope they don't go full Jojo and pull a "It was ME, LAHABREA, all along!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The reason we thought Lahabrea was involved in 5.4 was because they used him as (likely stand-in for Mitron) art right in the corner, barely visible. It's rather different from him being front-and-center, unambiguously, in Pandaemonium, complete with a logo referencing him.

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Yes, yes, and the 5.3 art shows Crystal Exarch with a Crystal of Light rather than what he has in game(the spirit vessel auracites). Concept art/introductory/promo art isn't always concrete representation of what we'll be getting, however explicit it seems to be.

I mean, I assume they'll reference him heavily. Maybe even go full bore FFII. But it's also true that black masked Ascians share the same mask shape, albeit with a mouth covering, as well as their red energy masks sharing the lower half's three pronged M(to an extent it's a little wider/longer more pronounced at the prongs). But I also lean towards the fact that they've stated he was killed completely upon the complete destruction of Nidhogg's eyes, so until I see him again concrete in game, my brain is inclined towards the promo art for Pandaemonium following the rule of cool/what makes people buzz (yes, even with Pandaemonium being a reference to Hell/Underworld etc).

One way it might be interesting is if there's some part of him still latent in Thancred, and he repossesses Ye Olde Thancred again. Then again, maybe not. We'll wait and see!