Dancer changes

What's everyone's opinion on the dancer changes we know about so far? Couldn't find any thread about the changes overall so I decided to make my own.

From my observations standard step is being deleted to make way for a simplified 1 button standard step, espirit has had it's small amount of complexity removed by making it guaranteed and only generated by the dancer, improv no longer grants espirit, procs are somehow being simplified because apparently it was difficult, and it got 3 new combo actions, one of which is a buff likely used right after improv.

It seems the direction they want dancer to go in is to make it as simple and easy as possible. I could be wrong though, maybe they'll get a new step dance since only having 1 used every 120 seconds would feel weird. Why even have the dance step mechanic anymore then.

I don’t care about DNC, but these changes sound terrible.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa5

From my observations standard step is being deleted to make way for a simplified 1 button standard step,

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The job action trailer does not necessarily indicate this. It doesn't show every single action available to each job. For example, SMN SCH and WHM don't show any aetherflow or lily spenders, RDM doesn't show all possible elemental spells, and SAM doesn't show any weaponskills except the ones that terminate combos.

Standard Step could still exist, with the new blue quick step action serving just to refresh the Finish and Esprit timers during downtime so that Standard Step still benefits from the damage bonus next time you use it.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The job action trailer does not necessarily indicate this. It doesn't show every single action available to each job. For example, SMN SCH and WHM don't show any aetherflow or lily spenders, RDM doesn't show all possible elemental spells, and SAM doesn't show any weaponskills except the ones that terminate combos.

Standard Step could still exist, with the new blue quick step action serving just to refresh the Finish and Esprit timers during downtime so that Standard Step still benefits from the damage bonus next time you use it.

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I'm not sure, I don't think that's likely because the new action applies the same buff as standard step and keeping up standard step is pretty much never an issue you'll run into unless you don't know the very basics of the job. It would be an unnecessary extra button if both it and standard step existed together unless they totally change how it works.

Where do you get all that from? None of that has been said or even indicated.
All they said about Dancer, was that there will be a QOL improvement, so you don't have to swap hotbars around to perform your steps.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Where do you get all that from? None of that has been said or even indicated.
All they said about Dancer, was that there will be a QOL improvement, so you don't have to swap hotbars around to perform your steps.

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The espirit and simplifying procs was mentioned after that. The stuff for standard step is an educated guess I'm making based on standard steps effects being moved onto a different skill. Standard step may still exist but it'd probably do something totally different. The 3 new actions were also said in the LL to be used after 3 existing skills and the job action trailer shows these 3 skills.

I don't think Standard Step is going away. Always getting Esprit from your regular attacks just means a base damage increase. It also might only be granted from flourish moves. The blue attack that is triggered after Technical Step was a min long buff but Technical is 2 min unless they lower that to 1 min I don't see that blue buff replacing standard step. The action that triggers after Saber Dance is probably another AoE attack. Just a line AoE instead of a circle one. Odds are the move that triggers from Improvisation is a heal of some kind since it didn't look like Improve grants Esprit anymore.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I don't think Standard Step is going away. Always getting Esprit from your regular attacks just means a base damage increase. It also might only be granted from flourish moves. The blue attack that is triggered after Technical Step was a min long buff but Technical is 2 min unless they lower that to 1 min I don't see that blue buff replacing standard step. The action that triggers after Saber Dance is probably another AoE attack. Just a line AoE instead of a circle one. Odds are the move that triggers from Improvisation is a heal of some kind since it didn't look like Improve grants Esprit anymore.

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Hmm you may be right for the standard step stuff. I was thinking that blue bird attack would have been usable after using technical step and not that other blue attack. I'm thinking the possible aoe line attack is from using devilment since they said new actions would become available after using technical step, improv, and devilment. The ability after improv could very well be a heal of some kind, possibly an aoe heal? If improv keeps the healing up buff it could make sense for it to be usable after that. Makes me wonder if curing waltz will stick around or be replaced with that possible aoe heal.

I also just realized that the proc changes they're making further dumb down dancer by making it impossible to ever have all 4 procs at once meaning when you press flourish you'll press your two single target skills and instantly go back to spamming 1 and 2 to fish for procs. This makes the job never really be required to go into melee range anymore thereby removing that uniqueness it had. Unless a lot more stuff is added this will make technical much less busy due to already getting far less saber dance procs and less feathers. 1-2 new gcd or ogcd buttons that don't fill espirit or proc feathers will not make technical more busy and that seems to be what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa5

This makes the job never really be required to go into melee range anymore thereby removing that uniqueness liability it had.

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Fixed that misspelling for you.

Seriously, we haven't been told much, and going by animations doesn't really help.
My guess is, there aren't really any changes, just some QOL and something new and shiny, and that's it.
This thread here comes across as if you're trying really hard to find fault, but I really see no reason for that.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa5

I also just realized that the proc changes they're making further dumb down dancer by making it impossible to ever have all 4 procs at once meaning when you press flourish you'll press your two single target skills and instantly go back to spamming 1 and 2 to fish for procs. This makes the job never really be required to go into melee range anymore thereby removing that uniqueness it had. Unless a lot more stuff is added this will make technical much less busy due to already getting far less saber dance procs and less feathers. 1-2 new gcd or ogcd buttons that don't fill espirit or proc feathers will not make technical more busy and that seems to be what they're doing.

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I'm sorry, but there's no complexity in going melee just for a proc of a weaponskill that isn't even designed towards single target, like the above player said, it was just a liability because there is nothing else to it.

But with all the rest, you probably should wait until further details are disclosed because for all that matters we only saw animations being used outside of an actual rotation context.

I'm just trying to formulate an idea of how the job could play and given SE's treatment of phys ranged this expansion on top of having every job I've ever loved being ruined I'm not the most optimistic. Especially since SE kept saying they wanted to make dancer somehow easier. By making you only need to press 2 buttons at any range as dancer is simpler than having to having to press 4, two of which you need to be in melee range with. Adding in a couple skills that essentially combo off others doesn't add much I feel but who knows, I could be wrong. I feel it is possible to get a rough outline of how some jobs could change based on the job action trailer. For example the blue skill used after technical that could be a new 1 button standard step based on the effect it grants. I made this thread to see other peoples theories on what the changes could be and thoughts on what we do know. Also in hopes of feeling a bit more optimistic about the changes due to other peoples theories.

I do think DNC really needed there own version of acceleration for fans which it looks like it got in the video but either NIN was too far away or Improv does not give Espirit any more making it even worse.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa5

I'm just trying to formulate an idea of how the job could play and given SE's treatment of phys ranged this expansion on top of having every job I've ever loved being ruined I'm not the most optimistic. Especially since SE kept saying they wanted to make dancer somehow easier. By making you only need to press 2 buttons at any range as dancer is simpler than having to having to press 4, two of which you need to be in melee range with. Adding in a couple skills that essentially combo off others doesn't add much I feel but who knows, I could be wrong. I feel it is possible to get a rough outline of how some jobs could change based on the job action trailer. For example the blue skill used after technical that could be a new 1 button standard step based on the effect it grants. I made this thread to see other peoples theories on what the changes could be and thoughts on what we do know. Also in hopes of feeling a bit more optimistic about the changes due to other peoples theories.

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I see your point... But you are pointing something (using AoE procs in single target) that happens only every 60s with Flourish, as there's no way they would proc otherwise in a st rotation, so this "complexity" of having more buttons to press isn't really all present...

The thing I'm most curious about though is with the new actions or traits there's gonna be something to make the TS downtime a bit more dynamic, because at the mercy of having that last feather proc or not, RNG can make the rotation really slow sometimes.

Regarding the consolidation of single target and AoE flourishes, I'm a little sad that I no longer have any reason to keep an eye on my range to ensure I'm in a position to use the AoE flourishes. Even if it was only once a minute, I liked that I was a bit of a hybrid ranged and melee DPS in that sense. I think the main thing they were going for, and the QoL we're gaining is that we're a lot less likely to time out our flourishes during our Technical windows.

Currently, I tend to generate Esprit so quickly during Technical that I sometimes worry about running out of time on getting in that last Rising Windmill, though if they're streamlining Esprit generation, then it seems like the problem would resolve itself in that regard too unless I'll still be generating Esprit rapidly during that phase still. I get the vibe that the summoned peacock attack is also meant to sort of replacement for the lost AoE flourishes, though that seems to be connected to Devilment and not Flourish.

I'm a little worried about Standard Step. I don't think it's gone either, but refreshing the effect after technical is such an odd choice if everything else stays constant, unless it's a different kind of buff and you can only have either that or standard step up at the same time?

I'm also a little weirded out by the added healing? action that's triggered from Improvisation. Seeing as it's still a channeled action, it feels very odd that we'll likely be using it and then immediately canceling it just for the sake of getting off that follow-up without actually dropping our GCD. In a way, it reminds me of AST's wheel of fortune buff. I don't necessarily like that they're trying to hold onto Improvisation, but it's whatever.

Only change i would have liked to see for dancer was give it a much shorter gcd than other jobs, mainly due to it's overall simple rotation.

Wait I’m confused about something. So we don’t have to go into melee range anymore for aoe attacks? We can stay range if we want?

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Wait I’m confused about something. So we don’t have to go into melee range anymore for aoe attacks? We can stay range if we want?

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AoE attacks are still melee, however, based on what we've been told, flourishing buffs being shared most likely means that Rising Windmill and Bloodshower will no longer be a part of Flourish windows, and thus going into melee range is no longer a requirement during single-target fights.

I wonder if the reason they are being shared is because of people complaining about procs running out during flourish windows if you get a lot of Espirit and need to spend it on Saber Dance.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

AoE attacks are still melee, however, based on what we've been told, flourishing buffs being shared most likely means that Rising Windmill and Bloodshower will no longer be a part of Flourish windows, and thus going into melee range is no longer a requirement during single-target fights.

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Okay thank you.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I wonder if the reason they are being shared is because of people complaining about procs running out during flourish windows if you get a lot of Espirit and need to spend it on Saber Dance.

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If that’s the case that would be the dumbest compromise and such a niche complaint as DNC ultimately don’t really have any issues , scratch that DNC totally has issues just DNC mains don’t....care? Yea let’s go with that and I doubt they only paid attention to this detail.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

DNC totally has issues

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What issues would that be?
I enjoy playing Dancer, it flows well. The downside is, I have to watch procs, that draws attention to my skill bar, but the flow is less complex to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

What issues would that be?
I enjoy playing Dancer, it flows well. The downside is, I have to watch procs, that draws attention to my skill bar, but the flow is less complex to make up for it.

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As a dancer main, I love the job, though it does have a few issues. These aren’t major problems, but things that could use improvement:

1. The job is pretty boring when synching down to old content. It would be nice to move some tools further down in level, such as Flourish, to add a little more gameplay variety.

2. While not always a problem, technical step windows sometimes generate so much Esprit that you don’t have time to use all your flourish procs. This seems like it’s going away, though personally I’d have preferred MrHappy’s suggestion of making Saber Dance extend proc durations by 5 seconds.

3. Whether or not someone likes the RNG aspects of the combos is ultimately an opinion. Regardless, it would be great to get a bit more opportunity to control that RNG and lessen the gap between worst and best luck outcomes.

4. Improvisation is entirely unnecessary. Dancer is not a job that needs a phase transition action.

5. This applies to all physical ranged DPS, but all three of us could stand a solid DPS boost to lessen the gap between us and the others. DPS tax is understandable, but as it stands, we’re a little too far behind everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

What issues would that be?
I enjoy playing Dancer, it flows well. The downside is, I have to watch procs, that draws attention to my skill bar, but the flow is less complex to make up for it.

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I’m no Dnc main but let’s see, Improvisation ticks are stupid and should be rounded, flourishes don’t add feathers so your completely reliant on luck to get a good burst phase going, also flourish is added so late in the kit making a heavy majority of content very boring without them. DNC currently has no skills to add feathers directly unlike BRD Empyreal or RDM acceleration making it too random at times. Step execution is incredibly benign and pointless and is way too forgiving and just wastes time frankly, DNC support is incredibly automated with only 2 skills that aren’t apart of its burst phase. Esprit is tied awkwardly to standard making saber dances almost entirely out of your control. Also a petty nitpick but the job is just boring

Idk what people see in it tbh, hardcore crowed may have a edge with potencies and support but I cannot fathom how people play this job on a casual format which is what...Relict all day ever day? It’s a nice base for a 50 or 60 job but this is 80s. Also I just don’t respect stagnate types as I’m familiar with their passion for the dispassionate

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

What issues would that be?
I enjoy playing Dancer, it flows well. The downside is, I have to watch procs, that draws attention to my skill bar, but the flow is less complex to make up for it.

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The player after your post had a few good points... I would add one more in the sense that the job can be very slow during TS downtime, at the mercy of fourfold feather RNG. You can go a long time with little to no oGCD fan dances to weave between your weaponskills. I would love if the feathers were gated 1 less proc, because they are actually the 3rd stage of RNG.

Alternatively, maybe Standard Step being actually off global cooldown could help a lot in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

The player after your post had a few good points... I would add one more in the sense that the job can be very slow during TS downtime, at the mercy of fourfold feather RNG. You can go a long time with little to no oGCD fan dances to weave between your weaponskills. I would love if the feathers were gated 1 less proc, because they are actually the 3rd stage of RNG.

Alternatively, maybe Standard Step being actually off global cooldown could help a lot in that regard.

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I kinda compound that with point 3, the controlled RNG aspect, but they are technically different. Though I feel if we do create some way to increase proc chances or guarantee procs for a time would help with that.