Is Smn losing its AOE?

I saw the workflow in the LL, and I didn't see much are shown, it seemed like all single target attacks.

SMN lost dots which cause loss aoe especially on dual-target situations in raid settings, but in dungeon, I would guess their aoe is kind of similar. It is pretty hard to say at this point, because we don't know any official numbers or tooltips.

I don't understand why you would think that. A vast majority of the SMN actions showcased in the trailer have large circular elements in their animations that suggest area effects.

All of the SMN's summon attacks have a ST and AoE version so I'm thinking big damage number attacks to make up for lack of DoTs.

SMN rework is looking god-like fam.

So much so, I am playing it right now, after never really touching since a brief stint of it after levelling SCH to 80.

the only thing it lost is dots, rather than that feel like more than half of things they throw out in trailer is AOE for me

Energy Siphon+Painflare, Bahamut (Astral Flare + Akh Morn), Phoenix (Brand of Purgatory + Revelation), Ifrit's, Garuda's, Titan's ultimate attacks and Gem brilliance (primals' AoE skill), Tri-Disaster and Ruin IV, if I'm not forgetting anything.

Whether it is fun or not, it's another matter.

Glad they added Geomancer to the game, just a shame they had to kill SMN to do it.

I'm not impressed by shiny things and SMN's changes only upset me.

*Removing DoTs is the first slap in the face. No more AoE DoTs to melt away large packs.
*Now SMN is a stance dancing job like Bard instead of it's own unique job.
*Not even sure if Egis are even useful anymore or just a place holder for Bahamut and Phoenix.
*Still doesn't fix the key issues like Demi ghosting abilities.
*Couldn't even be bother to add Leviathan, Shiva, or Ramuh stances.
*Remove all the shiny Primal animation, you basically switch stances to cast different elemental spells i.e. Geomancer.

Very excited for the SMN rework. Been playing it as my primary caster and pretty much my main for raiding outside of Bard and this is the first time that SMN felt like it was trying to have a singular identity rather then 5 of them. Egi's being less and less of a thing is only a net positive for me, and while I dislike dots being gone, I'm very happy with being able to control the rotation of summon, will be nice to move around placement of them to deal with raid mechanics. Plus it also feels like for the first time they thought about "what do we do next expansion?" theres a big post pheonix section now that can be added with shiva, ramuh and levi as the next3.

I'm happy they removed the DOT since that just made me feel like Summoner was a wanna be warlock from WOW. Looking forward to trying out the new smn system and Finally being able to summon Primal's with this new stone system hopefully more stuff will be added to it over time and we will be able to control the primal summons more. It was nice seeing the attacks that you get to do after you summon Titan.

Hate it. Will play it if I can't heal next tier. Someone else has to get a ride on the Glamour DPS train.

The summoner does not lose his aoes,
Every demi-phases had huge aoe system .

Dots for SMN always felt weird to me, especially since they were basically '' biological ''.
It makes sense for SCH with the nature theme with fairies etc but for SMN it was just wat.

Personally gutted they replaced summoner by a different class they even joked about adding 3 new classes as I just finished leveling up I am very disappointed so apparently I am a mage in ew with flashy graphics which does not mean anything for me.

Aoe removal would be the dead of ew mage/smn so I doubt they also will remove that Rez will probably go sadly in some future patch.

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Originally Posted by XmissionsX

Personally gutted they replaced summoner by a different class they even joked about adding 3 new classes as I just finished leveling up I am very disappointed so apparently I am a mage in ew with flashy graphics which does not mean anything for me.

Aoe removal would be the dead of ew mage/smn so I doubt they also will remove that Rez will probably go sadly in some future patch.

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A scene that basically sums up my feeling while watching the Action Trailer in Live Letter

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Glad they added Geomancer to the game, just a shame they had to kill SMN to do it.

I'm not impressed by shiny things and SMN's changes only upset me.

*Removing DoTs is the first slap in the face. No more AoE DoTs to melt away large packs.
*Now SMN is a stance dancing job like Bard instead of it's own unique job.
*Not even sure if Egis are even useful anymore or just a place holder for Bahamut and Phoenix.
*Still doesn't fix the key issues like Demi ghosting abilities.
*Couldn't even be bother to add Leviathan, Shiva, or Ramuh stances.
*Remove all the shiny Primal animation, you basically switch stances to cast different elemental spells i.e. Geomancer.

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It was never going to be FFXI SMN, the pet code is too spaghetti for that, and they have made multiple attempts to fix it. At some point you have to accept that it cannot be fixed with how things are right now, and move in the direction of something that still evokes the flavor of the class while changing it mechanically.

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Originally Posted by Blackcanary

I'm happy they removed the DOT since that just made me feel like Summoner was a wanna be warlock from WOW. Looking forward to trying out the new smn system and Finally being able to summon Primal's with this new stone system hopefully more stuff will be added to it over time and we will be able to control the primal summons more. It was nice seeing the attacks that you get to do after you summon Titan.

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This here.

Last thing I need or want is for this game to be anything similar to Booty grabbing WoW. When I first came to this game, 4 months ago, I fell in love with summoner cause it was kinda similar to warlock (A class I played for 17 years). But warlock pumped on steroids and energy drinks all at the same time. I really LOVE the summoner class and I would love for it to have it's own distinctive look and feel from the WoW warlock. So I see these changes as positive and great. I know we feel worried about the AoE, but I think we will be just fine. FFXIV has several things better then Blizzard and that is making sure ALL classes (jobs) are fun and competitive.

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Originally Posted by Darksummoner

This here.

Last thing I need or want is for this game to be anything similar to Booty grabbing WoW. When I first came to this game, 4 months ago, I fell in love with summoner cause it was kinda similar to warlock (A class I played for 17 years). But warlock pumped on steroids and energy drinks all at the same time. I really LOVE the summoner class and I would love for it to have it\\'s own distinctive look and feel from the WoW warlock. So I see these changes as positive and great. I know we feel worried about the AoE, but I think we will be just fine. FFXIV has several things better then Blizzard and that is making sure ALL classes (jobs) are fun and competitive.

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As someone who has played a lot of Korean MMOs this feels distinctly worse than the mindset used there. Unique and flashy looking spells existed there with equally bizarre yet fun mechanics. Their idea of Balance was very similar to classic MMOs, but even the WoW clones of that subgenre kept their weird utility on older classes and simply let it accrete over time. XIV doesn’t hesitate to trim or dumb things down and if I were to use a WoW analogy it was like walking into BfA or WoD and seeing half your fun stuff just ripped out for no reason other than it wasn’t easy to manage for the devs.

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Originally Posted by SchrodingersWaffle

It was never going to be FFXI SMN, the pet code is too spaghetti for that, and they have made multiple attempts to fix it. At some point you have to accept that it cannot be fixed with how things are right now, and move in the direction of something that still evokes the flavor of the class while changing it mechanically.

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Never said I wanted FFXI SMN, that version was garbage. I liked what we had but 5.XX needed adjustments to make it play more smoothly. And as you quoted, based on what we saw none of the issue we have are being addressed. In fact by moving Egi Assault from pets to Summoner you increase the delay of the attack lol. My click to action is basically 1.5s to 2s. Regardless, even if you use Earth Stance as a strawman argument, you still have a global cooldown that equalized it.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Never said I wanted FFXI SMN, that version was garbage. I liked what we had but 5.XX needed adjustments to make it play more smoothly. And as you quoted, based on what we saw none of the issue we have are being addressed. In fact by moving Egi Assault from pets to Summoner you increase the delay of the attack lol. My click to action is basically 1.5s to 2s. Regardless, even if you use Earth Stance as a strawman argument, you still have a global cooldown that equalized it.

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Nah, see what you're asking for, and what they've been attempting, is much closer to FFXI SMN than literally any other FF. No other FF actually has the summons as pets, it's literally just XI. This version that we're getting now, while still needing some adjustments to make it deeper gameplay wise, is much closer to the traditional SMN, and I'm saying that as someone who absolutely adored StB SMN. The only thing it really even has in common with Geomancer is that is uses elemental attacks, which could be said about BLM and RDM as well, so that's really a false equivalency.

The bottom line is that the limiting factor for SMN and to a lesser extent SCH is the absolutely horrendous pet AI coding, combined with the baseline action lock delay. They've tried multiple times to fix it, and given that it hasn't really gotten that much better since the ARR beta, leads me to believe that the limiting factor on the AI isn't with the AI code itself but rather the base code and function for the game, and that changing that code or function will cause more problems than it will fix. Ergo, given that they are unwilling or unable to fix the limiting factor of SMN as it stands right now, which is a coding function, I'd rather they move to something where those inherent coding/function problems aren't an issue.

Now that's not to say that they couldn't have solved these problems. They could've had the summons all use ranged attacks with unlimited range, and just had Bahamut and Phoenix stay where they're summoned, but I'll say that the system they've come up with has far more potential than what they've been working with and works far better as a baseline they can build upon than what they've had so far.

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Originally Posted by SchrodingersWaffle

Nah, see what you're asking for, and what they've been attempting, is much closer to FFXI SMN than literally any other FF. No other FF actually has the summons as pets, it's literally just XI. This version that we're getting now, while still needing some adjustments to make it deeper gameplay wise, is much closer to the traditional SMN,

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If you ignore every version of Summons after IX, sure, that's the case. Mostly due to hardware limitations. Though I'll note some of the versions I'm glossing over did more damage based on you letting them play their animations out, which technically has elements of ghosting in it in that both are damage losses. I think wholly disregarding X through XIII is big blow against this argument though, as all of those games had Summons act as individual party members once summoned, and X, like IV, VI, and VIII before it, featured them as a major point of their plot. Keep in mind that that argument also applies to Beast Master, which everyone also thinks 'should' be a pet job on the mere distinction of Fantasy Monsters vs Fantasy Demigods, which basically boils down to Mundane vs Magical at the end of the day, and also does not even feature in any main series game other than XI along that split. XI is indeed a major influence, but I'd argue if you think SUmmons shouldn't be pets you should think Beastmaster shouldn't get them as well.

Basically, that particular argument is dubiously applied at best. Summoner can be however SE wants it to be. We all can agree they decided to reneg on pets because they couldn't get the AI to work responsively enough for players to be satisfied for a decade, which I can still think of reasonable solutions for (adding charges to pet auto-spells, allowing their AI to be made asynchronous like other mechanics to account for the hardlock issue, and enabling the devs to update their priority list to actually prioritize player input properly). That's not what they decided to do though. They're cutting their losses. If they'd at least kept autos around on Carbuncle I think I would've been happy with it. I would have been much happier if they actually upgraded the Egi graphics instead of going for this lazier route, as it's where 90% of the actual complaint was (Pick any SMN complaint topic, you'll find it on the first page unless the OP said some batshit stupid nonsense). If they had wanted to, they could have put this same animation work into the pets as they were and it would have paid off considerably. Alas, they couldn't be bothered.


And if Demis are still on /heel AI I'm gonna be pissed. Just let us use /place like normal people.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I think wholly disregarding X through XIII is big blow against this argument though, as all of those games had Summons act as individual party members once summoned

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I'm not wholly disregarding X through XIII, those were included in there. Particularly in X and XIII, the summons replaced party members instead of being separate party members in and of themselves, which again, very different from how they function in XI and in XIV. Yes it's different from how they function in I-IX, but it's still nowhere close to XI and how they are in XIV right now.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Basically, that particular argument is dubiously applied at best. Summoner can be however SE wants it to be. We all can agree they decided to reneg on pets because they couldn't get the AI to work responsively enough for players to be satisfied for a decade, which I can still think of reasonable solutions for (adding charges to pet auto-spells, allowing their AI to be made asynchronous like other mechanics to account for the hardlock issue, and enabling the devs to update their priority list to actually prioritize player input properly). That's not what they decided to do though. They're cutting their losses. If they'd at least kept autos around on Carbuncle I think I would've been happy with it. I would have been much happier if they actually upgraded the Egi graphics instead of going for this lazier route, as it's where 90% of the actual complaint was (Pick any SMN complaint topic, you'll find it on the first page unless the OP said some batshit stupid nonsense). If they had wanted to, they could have put this same animation work into the pets as they were and it would have paid off considerably. Alas, they couldn't be bothered.


And if Demis are still on /heel AI I'm gonna be pissed. Just let us use /place like normal people.

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I am kind've curious about how they came to this decision, While I don't dislike it, I'm in favor of it, I wasn't expecting such a drastic change. I've wanted dots gone for awhile since it definitely didn't feel really SMN to me, sure I wasn't a huge fan of egi assaults but I figured they may change something. Maybe they tried it, it didn't work, harder to tune for and just would've presented different issues that we may have only know once it releases, and they've wanted some heavier changes for awhile now. It seemed like that with Tri-disaster, but maybe they felt it would upset people getting rid of dots completely, but with tri-disaster being the way it is, maybe they felt it was easier to transition for people to getting rid of it. I wanted the demi's out longer and them doing the skills. Also, I did not see a pet action bar at all, So I can only assume your pet will ultimately function as a MCH pet.

They do sorta feel like a Geomancer now, however I feel like Geomancer, if they put it in XIV given interviews, would be more Taoist/ talisman inspired. That said, I would prefer something more like a time mage with dots. something not.. elemental.

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Originally Posted by jadan2000

I saw the workflow in the LL, and I didn't see much are shown, it seemed like all single target attacks.

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They will still be doing outbursts with their summons. Bahamut and Phoenix both have AOE explosions from their outburst use. Titan, Garuda, and Ifrit all cause AOE dmg on summon. Their outbursts are also all AOE. Garuda especially summons a standing AOE wind dmging zone. Titan has aoe explosions from outburst and so does Ifrit. We will be losing bane but we are getting so much more.

No, all the summons seem to have AoE like Phoenix, even Bahamut was given one, including their ''ultimates'' when you first summon them which work as AoE burst. Garuda also still has the placement AoE. If anything they made AoE rotations less awkward, and made them more suitable for on demand use with no downtime, which is a good thing, because there were times in pulls where old SMN felt awkward because one phase wasn't up because a tank was pulling wierdly or at a random pace. SMN rework removes that trouble since we now have AoE always available to cycle through with the trances.

It would surprise me if Outburst was removed from the game altogether; there still needs to be some continuously repeatable AOE spell that's better than Ruin III while there are at least three target enemies, for consistency with other jobs that have similarly available options.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

It would surprise me if Outburst was removed from the game altogether; there still needs to be some continuously repeatable AOE spell that's better than Ruin III while there are at least three target enemies, for consistency with other jobs that have similarly available options.

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It looks like outburst will upgrade to tri-disaster at 74 (based on the tooltip in LL demo)