Told you we'd get screwed.

Point says it all. Are we going to start goal post moving again

There are several goalposts I often see in regards to any issues before an xpac.

1. Wait for tooltips before you judge.
2. Tooltips make it clear it suck. You're told to wait to actually try it yourself.
3. x.0 drops. The skillset sucks, as was obvious from the get-go. You're told to wait for x.05 or x.1 for a buff.
4. You may get a buff or minor adjustment. The overall problem remains.
5. You're told to wait until x.3 for a bigger adjustment.
6. x.3 comes. Problem persists. You're told to wait until the next expansion.
7. You see the job actions and live letter. It sucks.

You basically have people cycling through 1-7, whiteknighting as hard as possible for the design choice.

Did anybody actually expect anything good? This is like the 3rd disappointing healer expansion reveal in a row.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

If we get a new healer in 6.0 it will either be the only viable option or completely useless, then the entire expansion will be patches trying to fix that.

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https://i.imgur.com/J8bTTCj.gif

SCH is garbage--even the runspeed gimmick doesn't stack with sprint. This is literally a dead job...Sage however looks dope, and WHM should still be fun.
But, the days of playing SCH and enjoying a fun balance between dps and healing are over. Square Enix killed that in 5.0 and we're not going back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Did anybody actually expect anything good? This is like the 3rd disappointing healer expansion reveal in a row.



https://i.imgur.com/J8bTTCj.gif

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Other people did, not us Veteran's.

Your signature is completely on point, they are going to be trying to fixing for fucking years. It's Astro all over again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Truen

SCH is garbage...and WHM should still be fun.

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How. They're designed with almost the exact same snoozeathon paradigms at this point. They both refresh a 30 second DoT, spam a boring nuke, and occasionally toss out an oGCD heal. I'm still Math Lady Meme confused over the simultaneity in "SCH is so horrible and boring" and "WHM is so fresh and fun". There's no utility to manage, no cards, no buffs, just spamming. Scholar mains find current Scholar boring because they decided to design it like White Mage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

How. They're designed with almost the exact same snoozeathon paradigms at this point. They both refresh a 30 second DoT, spam a boring nuke, and occasionally toss out an oGCD heal. I'm still Math Lady Meme confused over the simultaneity in "SCH is so horrible and boring" and "WHM is so fresh and fun". There's no utility to manage, no cards, no buffs, just spamming. Scholar mains find current Scholar boring because they decided to design it like White Mage.

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WHM is slowly moving in the right direction though, whereas SCH is simply regressing or stagnating. But yeah. I think all healers look horrible from this LL. Maybe SGE will be nice, I know I'll give it a shot. But if it's more of the same, I'm out.. DPS here I come.

Alright, you're telling me anyone is actually gonna play SCH after watching the Job Action trailer that had SMN in it? LOL

Bye, Healers are moving on to DPS mains in EW. I mean, it's already happening.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EmpyreanHelios

Alright, you're telling me anyone is actually gonna play SCH after watching the Job Action trailer that had SMN in it? LOL

Bye, Healers are moving on to DPS mains in EW. I mean, it's already happening.

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I'm looking forward to this statement coming true because when ShB hits, this forum filled with threads saying nobody plays healer anymore and expected healer shortage

But guess what, multiple data and surveys indicate huge growth on healer population

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I'm looking forward to this statement coming true because when ShB hits, this forum filled with threads saying nobody plays healer anymore and expected healer shortage

But guess what, multiple data and surveys indicate huge growth on healer population

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We had an actual healer shortage which eventually went back to the usual tank shortage.


What are those surveys actually measuring? The latest I found tells you nothing about the actual healer main population, only numbers on how many people leveled a healer and that is absolutely worthless. Leveling a job to 80 and actually playing it are two very different things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

We had an actual healer shortage which eventually went back to the usual tank shortage.


What are those surveys actually measuring? The latest I found tells you nothing about the actual healer main population, only numbers on how many people leveled a healer and that is absolutely worthless. Leveling a job to 80 and actually playing it are two very different things.

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Main Hand Item Level

Using job level as criteria is not valid because players are allowed to level multiple jobs

Since we don't really have a way to clearly tell what players are maining, using Main Hand Item Level to determine which jobs are being focused by players seems sound.

I know this is still flawed, but it's more reliable than comparing player job level

and if it really went back to tank shortage, that can still mean healer populations are still high.

Then the statement of "nobody wants to play healers" is false

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Main Hand Item Level

Using job level as criteria is not valid because players are allowed to level multiple jobs

Since we don't really have a way to clearly tell what players are maining, using Main Hand Item Level to determine which jobs are being focused by players seems good.

and if it really went back to tank shortage, that can still mean healer populations are still high.

Then the statement of "nobody wants to play healers" is false

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Main hand is probably as best a criteria as one can get, even if people who have content on farm will get those for basically all jobs they have leveled.

Let's be honest here though, there will never be a time where nobody plays healer, because then you simply wouldn't get anything done ever.

Someone will always have to play a healer for their dungeons or their static, even if they absolutely despise playing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Main hand is probably as best a criteria as one can get, even if people who have content on farm will get those for basically all jobs they have leveled.

Let's be honest here though, there will never be a time where nobody plays healer, because then you simply wouldn't get anything done ever.

Someone will always have to play a healer for their dungeons or their static, even if they absolutely despise playing it.

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that can be true, but can it really be higher than tanks when healers suck so bad?

if you look at MH Item Level distribution, WHM is the highest among ALL jobs

SCH and AST are somewhere near middle but still higher than some DPS jobs

I know the part reason healers have higher average MH item level is because there're only 3 jobs, and I'm not saying healers don't deserve to change

What I want to say is current healers, despite we dislike it, actually appeal to larger player base

As long as healer population remain as it is now, or even go higher in EW, it's less likely that the healer design get changed.

My impressions:

SCH and WHM are practically unchanged. All those complaints/issues have not been addressed. The only way I can see myself enjoying either is if they've rebalanced healing so that I am healing for the majority of the time and get to use my healing kit properly even on low end content. But I think this is what I said after the 5.0 media tour. And we have no evidence that's what they're going to do.

With AST, we knew the Nocturnal Sect loss was coming, I said it's likely they'd keep Neutral Sect, because I didn't see this differentiation between shield and pure healing would mean shields would be removed entirely. I am glad they didn't remove this. Given the change in healer dichotomy come 6.0 I feel this was kinda necessary. It'd be nice to have something new. Some of the other adjustments sound like improvements. I've been of the view we need to cut down redraw use and embrace that Minor Arcana is how we avoid 'wasting' cards, not having loads of tools for drawing cards and fishing for the one you want. So this I think will feel better. I felt in ShB AST was in a better place than SCH and WHM in terms of how fun it was to play, so I think that will remain come EW.

But Sage on the other hand, they said the three magical words for me, "Technical Shield Healer", that's what I want to play and what SCH used to be, so I am not happy SCH got sacrificed (because that's how it feels) but if it lives up to that claim - and it looks like a handful of the things I wanted to see on SCH to fix SCH are on SGE - then it's possible there may at least be a means for me to enjoy healing.

However, my fear is that it too will end up relegated to a single button DPS spam. But for any of the "wait and see" arguments, this is the only one I will "wait and see" for to cast judgment.

SCH and WHM are still garbage and AST is still only okay IMO.


Also SMN is no longer a DoT mage.
Make SCH a DoT Mage Again.
It had a plague thing going for it.
It is a part of its identity
Heck, FFXI SCH had a DoT focus. If any job has any claim to 'DoT Mage' it should be SCH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

What I want to say is current healers, despite we dislike it, actually appeal to larger player base

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Appeal is a strong word, and we have no way of affirming that, really. WHM is a super simple job that's popular for dungeon farming... since it's a healer it gets decent queue times and that means people might have a high ilvl main weapon just so that they can use the job to farm tomestones. SCH levels with SMN so those who like SMN and want to level it will automatically level SCH as well. Why not slap a high level book on the scholar if you get one just... in case... you might play it maybe? *shrug*. Anyway, neither I nor anyone here can know why all these people got a weapon on a healing class. But just because they do doesn't necessarily mean the job appeals to them to main.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

that can be true, but can it really be higher than tanks when healers suck so bad?

if you look at MH Item Level distribution, WHM is the highest among ALL jobs

SCH and AST are somewhere near middle but still higher than some DPS jobs

I know the part reason healers have higher average MH item level is because there're only 3 jobs, and I'm not saying healers don't deserve to change

What I want to say is current healers, despite we dislike it, actually appeal to larger player base

As long as healer population remain as it is now, or even go higher in EW, it's less likely that the healer design get changed.

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From opinion polls I've seen, SCH has always been very low with AST also being low, but higher than SCH and WHM in a better place. WHM is simple and fluid and there's a demographic for that, even if I think there is some room to still satisfy those bored with it.

I don't think using how many people are playing healers or are maining healers as a good metric for how people feel about them. Because some people are healers at heart, healing is their comfort zones, they may be healers for their static or in their friend groups and so on, so these are all factors that will skew results. Like if you take me, my group has 3 people who are healer players, two of us find we're not having a lot of fun and the third still has complaints but not as much. So the two of us who aren't having too much fun swap places from time to time. Healing is also my comfort zone and always my preferred role in an MMO, so it's something very hard to let go and I tried in ShB. I was able to at least find some consolation in swapping from SCH to AST.

Opinion polls I think are better, but the downside is there's no official one that's been done. People on reddit have done them, but one can still argue a sample bias. I think the kind of data you're looking at makes more sense if you're looking at it within the scope of a role and not overall jobs, you'll still get your stubborn "I will still to my guns despite hating it" type, but it's a better indicator that more healers enjoy WHM versus SCH or AST. But it's no indicator that the current healers appeal to the larger play base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

From opinion polls I've seen, SCH has always been very low with AST also being low, but higher than SCH and WHM in a better place. WHM is simple and fluid and there's a demographic for that, even if I think there is some room to still satisfy those bored with it.

I don't think using how many people are playing healers or are maining healers as a good metric for how people feel about them. Because some people are healers at heart, healing is their comfort zones, they may be healers for their static or in their friend groups and so on, so these are all factors that will skew results. Like if you take me, my group has 3 people who are healer players, two of us find we're not having a lot of fun and the third still has complaints but not as much. So the two of us who aren't having too much fun swap places from time to time. Healing is also my comfort zone and always my preferred role in an MMO, so it's something very hard to let go and I tried in ShB. I was able to at least find some consolation in swapping from SCH to AST.

Opinion polls I think are better, but the downside is there's no official one that's been done. People on reddit have done them, but one can still argue a sample bias. I think the kind of data you're looking at makes more sense if you're looking at it within the scope of a role and not overall jobs, you'll still get your stubborn "I will still to my guns despite hating it" type, but it's a better indicator that more healers enjoy WHM versus SCH or AST. But it's no indicator that the current healers appeal to the larger play base.

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I agree with you mostly. From the data we can get, it has flaws and can be biased, but it's the closest we can get.

But it's less likely for those who don't like healers to go through E12S or all the relic quest line to level their MH weapon first.

for people who would do them might as well level all their MH IL to the highest on all jobs, which don't affect the outcome.

Your story about healer is true and I agree with your sentiment

However, The polls you mentioned is no better because people content with current design are less likely to express their opinions and I believe there are still people who really like current healer design.

There are still people who switch to healers after ShB because they dislike the complexity and design of healers pre-ShB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Appeal is a strong word, and we have no way of affirming that, really. WHM is a super simple job that's popular for dungeon farming... since it's a healer it gets decent queue times and that means people might have a high ilvl main weapon just so that they can use the job to farm tomestones. SCH levels with SMN so those who like SMN and want to level it will automatically level SCH as well. Why not slap a high level book on the scholar if you get one just... in case... you might play it maybe? *shrug*. Anyway, neither I nor anyone here can know why all these people got a weapon on a healing class. But just because they do doesn't necessarily mean the job appeals to them to main.

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and go through all the relic questline just for that?

some people would do this, some people wouldn't

Also those websites list every tier of IL distribution on all jobs and are categorized by date and month .

So you mean healers obtain their highest IL faster than most jobs just because the majority of people might one day play healers?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I agree with you mostly. From the data we can get, it has flaws and can be biased, but it's the closest we can get.

But it's less likely for those who don't like healers to go through E12S or all the relic quest line to level their MH weapon first.

for people who would do them might as well level all their MH IL to the highest on all jobs, which don't affect the outcome.

Your story about healer is true and I agree with your sentiment

However, The polls you mentioned is no better because people content with current design are less likely to express their opinions and I believe there are still people who really like current healer design.

There are still people who switch to healers after ShB because they dislike the complexity and design of healers pre-ShB

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There is another aspect to consider, using the highest tier is flawed too, because if anything, I would argue Savage tier is probably where you're most busy as a healer. I'm a semi casual and didn't do up to E12S but I did E4S and I had fun, it was a mix of the mechanics of the fight and in a progression scenario I had my work cut out for me because I am using my kit. I think it's fairly likely that people who are healers at heart & are savage tier players are going to put more investment into healing Savage content. So I'd find it plausible they would get their relic, some people do it because it's an achievement and some people do it simply for the glamour, when people say "glamour is the true endgame" it's not much of an exaggeration, people will pool hours of resources to get the thing they like the look of. Look at the measures you have to go through to get the Ozma mount.

Anyway this is only a small section of the game's content and you'll find with my complaints they're mostly directed at healing outside of savage content, because as the semi casual player, Savage content is infrequent content. And even if it wasn't semi casual, I'd still need be doing all of the other content in the game.

And yes, people who are content are less likely to express their opinions, because people complained about healing when I was loving it and wish I had be around to give all the positive feedback and how great the design is. And it seems some of those complaints got addressed, but those who loved the original design and want an evolution on that have been dismissed by this live later (because they stated as such) and I'd not mind a different approach if it was just fun to play, like I'm pretty flexible but just don't bore me.

It is a hard one to gauge, and to be honest, I see no shame in the devs doing an official structured feedback poll with an incentive for completion. Reading forum posts, reading reddit, getting custom polls from select community, measuring satisfaction based on usage aren't great metrics. Sure, it's what we have, but they're not good ways of doing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I'm looking forward to this statement coming true because when ShB hits, this forum filled with threads saying nobody plays healer anymore and expected healer shortage

But guess what, multiple data and surveys indicate huge growth on healer population

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Wait, are you referring to the latest census where uh… Everything has a huge growth because WoW exodus and all =(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Wait, are you referring to the latest census where uh… Everything has a huge growth because WoW exodus and all =(

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this has always been the case since the beginning the ShB

Listen, I went to look for those data and surveys not because I want to argue with people here

I, too, dislike the current state of healers. I want to let developers know many healers abandon their roles because of it.

So I wanted some proof to support my claim, yet to my surprise, the data I gathered is contrary to my assumption.

And the ingame Duty Finder always remind me of the fact that healers are not that few by showing me "Adventurer in Need : Tank" most of the time, and Party Finder fare me no better. Healer roles still fill quickly then I expected

I have been keeping an eye on multiple websites and expected different results each month, the results I can one day say " See this? healers issues are grave and need fixing"

but sadly, even with the WoW refugees, the proportion of healer populations did not changed much