1) First and foremost, and this one will probably be the least controversial change: switch the names of [trick attack] and [armor crush]. It simply makes more sense.
2) Secondly, and keep in mind, this is with the aforementioned name-change in effect: turn [throwing dagger], [trick attack], and [shadowfang] into long-range GCD-combo abilities. Give [throwing dagger] a chance to slow attack speed(10-15% for 5-10s), give [trick attack] a chance to blind(10-15% for 5-10s), and turn [shadowfangs] DOT into a chance to DOT(10-15%).
3) Third change: giving [Mug] a teleport behind opponent ability.
You may wonder, why?
- Firstly, personally, I never use [throwing dagger]. It's just an ability that occupies a slot for me. It lacks utility and combo-potential. I sometimes even forget to use [shadowfang] due to my desire to save the ability for bosses or at least powerful singular mobs.
- Secondly, I don't like that [trick attack](formerly known as [armor crush]) competes with [aeolian edge]. I would rather [trick attack] be a part of its own combo chain.
- Thirdly, I'd like ninjas to possess more utility without being OP.
- I'd like ninjas to have more long-range abilities beyond mudras.
- feels less busy with one less oGCD(shadowfang), one less uncombo-ed GCD ability(throwing daggers), and no more competition for [aeolian edge] from [trick attack]. Instead, all these abilities will be joined into a single combo where all three abilities have a chance to debuff or DOT.
- less repetitive, yet streamlined, outside of [armor crush] window by giving player more utility GCD-attached options and less non-combo abilities
- Lastly, and most importantly, because procs make things more fun.
With these changes in effect, the ninja will have three GCD-combo chains:
- one that does AOE dmg
- one that does close-range single-target dmg
- one with a chance to debuff/DOT at long-range
Numbers such as debuff duration and percentage chances are arbitrary. What do you all think?
Changes to Ninja I'd like people's thoughts on
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09-18-2021, 12:30 PMFlynn89Changes to Ninja I'd like people's thoughts on
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09-18-2021, 01:05 PMDarkstride
Well, Shadowfang is getting deleted, so you won't need to worry about it anymore.
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09-18-2021, 01:07 PMFlynn89No, I want to keep shadowfang. I just want to be able to use it more often without it being OP. The devs getting rid of shadowfang is nothing short of a nerf. A massive nerf too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkstride
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09-18-2021, 01:08 PMDarkstrideNo, I mean the devs literally just said Shadowfang is being removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynn89
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09-18-2021, 01:12 PMFlynn89LOL, I know what you said. I'm watching the live letter as I type this. I'm saying I want them to rework it, not remove it. Ninjas just got nerfed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkstride
The problem with ninja isn't that it's "too busy." The problem is that it's too busy only 10% of the time during the trick attack window, while outside of that window, it's actually quite repetitive(spam a single combo, while waiting for oGCD's to cooldown). -
09-18-2021, 09:48 PMRealism_Snide
1) I don't understand how that makes more sense.
2) No Just no to all of that. And here is why:
Long range combo: We literally don't need a long range combo. If you're away from the boss for long enough to do a 3gcd ranged combo, I hate to say it, but you're not playing melee right. Even in the harder content, you only spend 1, MAYBE 2 gcd away from the boss before you can go back in safely and do your damage. Also, you're not asking for Trick Attack or Shadowfang there. Your asking for completely new abilities you wished were named "Trick Attack" and "Shadow Fang".
Chances to do things: There is a reason why AST cards got gutted in ShB, and that is because nobody likes chances, and it doesn't feel that good. And their odds of getting a "useful" buff back then were 30%. So unless the abilities guarantee a blind or a dot, they won't feel good to use at all, and aren't contributing as much as they should be. Also, Trick Attack already gives essentially a defense down to your target for 15s. It really does not need the added blindness.
3)Completely pointless because you're already behind the boss and in melee range 99% of the time. That 1% is for when you're Armor Crushing. Actually, it would cause more harm since the teleporting would just become another animation lock for us to deal with. -
09-18-2021, 09:48 PMRealism_Snide
Now onto addressing your "why you want those changes"
-"Firstly, personally, I never use [throwing dagger]" Throwing Daggers is for when you have to step away from the boss for a bit and you don't have a Raiton to spare. It keeps your GCD rolling, and gives you 5 ninki. Better to use it than do no damage at all. "I sometimes even forget to use [shadowfang]" Same here when I was still learning NIN after the 5.1 changes. So I just press it right after pressing Trick Attack, since they have the same cooldown.
-I don't understand how Trick Attack competes with Aoelian Edge, so I'm just going to assume you meant Armor Crush for this one. Fun fact: It used to be in a different 3-step combo back in Stormblood. It went Spinning Edge -> Shadow Fang -> Armor Crush. Or something like that. And Shadow Fang used to be a longer DoT you had to maintain. But then ShB removed that combo and bastardized Shadow Fang before killing it for good. :)
- I, too, wish NIN had more utility, but the current state of FFXIV is too simple to have any support other than "doing more damage" and "taking less damage". It used to be more complex several years ago (when Heavensward was the new expansion), but now Yoshi-P just stated that they have no intention of going back to that level of complexity. Which means a big old RIP to utility for now. (I want my Jugulate and DoT management back :'()
- Nin do get more long ranged abilities in Hellfrog Medium and Ten-Chi-Jin past lvl 60. And one of our new trait past lvl 70 change Kassatsu into an ability to change Hyoton (ice ninjutsu) and Katon (fire ball ninjutsu) into new, more potent ninjutsus.
- Skipping the next 2 points since I personally like the repetitiveness and business of the job. Except I do want a DoT to manage outside Trick window.
- Procs for an effect to happen aren't fun. Procs that unlock a new stronger abilities are fun, though. Utilities are better when they aren't locked or only a % chance of getting. -
09-18-2021, 09:49 PMRealism_Snide
Also, I can't help but notice that you might like playing Bard or Dancer, since they offer everything you want that you posted.
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09-18-2021, 10:11 PMFlynn891) I'm gonna quote you in point #2 to explain the name change: "Trick Attack already gives essentially a defense down to your target for 15s."Quote:
Originally Posted by Realism_Snide
In other words . . . it crushes armor. Why not call it "Armor Crush"?
2) The long-range part was optional, but what you're essentially admitting is that throwing daggers is useless. Personally, I like to keep my distance during enemy AOE spams. Secondly, I like chances. They feel better to me than an oGCD with a 60s CD. Thirdly, the changes to trick attack were POST-name change. So no, I wasn't adding blindness to trick attack in addition to the damage debuff. They remain on two different abilities. I was adding blindness onto armor crush(pre-name change).
Keep in mind, Yoshi-P just announced that they got rid of shadowfang altogether.
3) Well I see no real reason to use mug then. The animation would have been as quick as shukuchi. And armor crush(without the name change) competes with aeolian slash.
So now shadowfang is gone, throwing daggers are useless, mug is useless, and armor crush renders aeolian slash useless. Ninja's non-mudra actions remain boring, repetitive and lacking in utility. Would you rather fill your hotbar with useless abilities, or abilities with proc-potential that combo?
OMG, lol no. Not into those classes. Don't mistake my complaints for a dislike of ninja. I love ninja. It's fun, but it could be more fun and streamlined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Realism_Snide
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09-18-2021, 11:29 PM0Lime
1) No. I've been calling it trick attack since ninja released in 2.4 and I wouldn't start calling it armor crush if they changed it.
2) I see no purpose in having a long range combo when we already have a lot of ranged options and a gap closer that's easy to reset the cooldown on.
3) Why does Mug need a teleport ability when we already have Shukuchi? -
09-18-2021, 11:30 PMGemina
1. While true, abilities like Mug and Trick attack are signature abilities for iconic jobs like Thief and Ninja.
2. Ranged combos would feel awkward. Even for NIN, which could possibly pull that off. Multiple debuffs is what the devs have moved away from for this job, and for good reason as it is already quite busy. While debilitating abilities are known to be part of pop culture ninja toolkits, these toolkits are so vast that it just isn't possible to give it all to one job in an mmo, so you have to pick and choose. They have really gone full blown Naruto with NIN in FFXIV, and will likely continue to go in this direction in the future as well.
3. You can Shukuchi behind an opponent and mug them if you wish. Mug in the FF world is typically an upgrade to 'Steal' for Thief and/or Ninja, and adds damage while also nabbing an item. IOW, it's a direct assault, and not sneaky. As for throwing dagger. I also rarely use it. I usually have ninjitsu available when forced out and have to cast mudras while on the run anyway. When I am forced into a situation that I have to use throwing dagger, I usually feel like I messed up somewhere, or I need to learn the timing of the fight more to prevent it.
In contradiction to this, what I feel NIN needs is to not get entirely screwed if forced to move out of TCJ. It's not totally contradictive though as there are times where the NIN is not at fault for having to drop TCJ, so I would rather they not get punished for another player's mistake when it comes to this. I think it would be pretty cool if Shukuchi resets upon use of TCJ, and using it during TCJ will not break it. -
09-19-2021, 03:43 AMEquitable_Remedy
*Edit* Never mind, I just read an overview of the LL!
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09-19-2021, 07:04 AMRealism_SnideBecause your giving your enemy a surprise stab in the back while they are busying themselves with the tank. On the flip side, why call Armor Crush "Trick Attack" when there is nothing sneaky or tricky about it? Either way, I'm not changing the names.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynn89
Are you blind? I just explained to you how useful Throwing Daggers are. But I guess you prefer doing nothing while you're away from the boss and have no mudras instead of doing some damage and getting some ninki out of it. So the changes are to Armor Crush, an ability that does decent damage and that refreshes Huton. And now you want to add blindness to it on top of that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynn89
I know. RIP Shadowfang :,(. It will be missed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynn89
Mug gives you 40 ninki, which is then used on either Bhavakackra (high damage single target), Hellfrog (Ranged aoe damage), or Bunshin (doubles your weaponskill attacks and ninki gain from those skills for 5 uses). I agree that mug is useless below lvl 60 (as does most of NIN's kit, sadly, especially below 50), but you will see it does become useful later. Shukuchi isn't as fast as you think it is. It would still be an animation lock as long as Assassinate's animation lock. I still don't see how those 2 compete? You need 1 to refresh Huton, and you need the other for the damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynn89
I'd rather fill my hotbar with these useful abilities that you call useless than with abilities that have a low chance of being useful and a ranged combo we don't need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynn89
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09-19-2021, 07:08 AMRealism_Snide
I do agree with you that NIN could be more fun. Just not with those changes. If they brought back some of our utility that we used to have (like Jugulate, which silences our foe, or our aggro management tools, or even our own unique attack down ability to help mitigate strong aoes), but keep the current mudra system, I would find it even more fun and satisfying.
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09-20-2021, 07:07 PMCrimson1345
I honestly don't see why there getting rid of Shadow Fang makes no sense its a decent ability in its own right. Its not gone yet and If we complain enough SE might go back on it. No reason to remove said ability, There are other useless skills out there that can be replaced. IF SE devs see this reconsider this do not remove our skill. I use it in rotations all the time.. Shadow Fang is gurented 10 no matter and creates that nice effect on the enemies. I rather have shadow fang. Its just odd there removing it for no real reason. Ninja is losing its utility that's not good SE serously . I agree Throwing daggers not as useful as some other skills. We can use mudra for range attacks regardless. If enough of us Complain SE can change there minds on removing this one skill and get rid of some other skill honestly we might not need. ITs not set in stone as it said. Still in development. Example one Feint was removed at one time and come back as a role skill it got reworked. Feint in 1.0 was way different then what we have now for example. I see no reason to remove shadow fang.