We should talk about endgame, and the future of this combat.

I've been working on getting better, and was thinking of tipping my toes into end game content. I'm not talking about randoms, but was thinking of starting a ls and building up like minded players who want to learn and get better. Try the hardest content. With that, I want to lead by example like I did when I was a raid leader in wow. So I get enjoyment out of playing a class to the fullest, but I come to understand two problems with this game.


1) Ping.
2) Double weaving.


I can do it, barely being on the east coast. It is not easy, and I come to understand a simple thing. My dps is going to take a hit not because of my skill, but because of latency. And if I tackle harder content. I will be fighting a uphill battle, trying to play my class to the fullest, and the boss itself. Most of the time it is fine, but when my nephew has online classes. Sister watching her Kpop stuff, and gaming with wife. Well I would have to balance around that. I think classes should have something to strive for, but I'm not so sure double weaving is it because of ping.


So my question is this, With many new players coming to the game, and some might be wanting to get into the end game. Do you think issues like this will arise, and do you feel this hinders the game?

Whether double weaving is a problem I feel has more to do with your gcd.
With MNK for example you need to be spot on and have no lag, but with DRG I don't think it's a problem.

Only Bard and Machinist that required Double weave as Fundamental.
Other jobs are fine with single weave, I think.

I don't double weave because of ping and I've never had a problem because extreme and savage fights are scaled to the average item level, which everyone usually exceeds even when it comes out. There are classes that don't do much weaving as well.

There are a few fights that are scaled almost to the maximum item level allowed like ultimate and unreal but there are other ways to increase the party damage than just double weaving and it's usually enough.

You can get through Savage just fine with high ping. Australian players do it all the time. The Australians in my BLU static are the highest DPSes in the group, along with someone else in that timezone whose nationality I don't know. They're all on Primal.

I play on the East Coast, and while I don't have as many other people taking up my bandwidth, I've never had troubles with ping. In fact, in the current state of the game, I've gotten away with a lot more close shaves during dodges and things than in any other part of the game's life.

If you play with other's effects on, you can turn them off for serious raiding, and this will slightly reduce your input lag. Other than that, you could also use classes that don't need double weaving as much to be optimal. Stuff like Black Mage or a tank like Warrior. (Though almost every job has a ping related optimization somewhere. No optimizations are required to clear Savage).

Ya, Im pretty sure that the content can be done with single weave, but it is more of a mindset thing. If im going to do content I want to play my class at its fullest. I guess I have a very old school mindset, so I might just need to train myself out of it. Thanks for the feedback.

no content in the game requires double-weaving to get through.

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you NEED to. This is just some try-hard bullshit, as usual.

I said this all the way back in 2.0 when Titan HM was a block for a lot of people.
"Don't use ping as an excuse to cover up your lack of skill at the game"

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Whether double weaving is a problem I feel has more to do with your gcd.
With MNK for example you need to be spot on and have no lag, but with DRG I don't think it's a problem.

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you clearly havent mastared the mnk tradition of disconnecting, reconnecting and doing positionals as a moving corpse

all jokes aside at high speed tiers double weaving isn't actually reccommended for all jobs op

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Originally Posted by TTiscancer

no content in the game requires double-weaving to get through.

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you NEED to. This is just some try-hard bullshit, as usual.

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This is true, but I do get enjoyment out of pushing a class to its limits. So it is not something that for me right now is easily to accept. I find it fun to try hard. It is not like I expect others to have same fun. I'm not sure why you seem a little aggressive because I enjoy doing this. lol.

I will have to plead ignorance here, but what is "double weaving"?

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I will have to plead ignorance here, but what is "double weaving"?

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It is when you use your off global cooldowns twice before your global cooldowns is done. Is simple way to put it.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

This is true, but I do get enjoyment out of pushing a class to its limits. So it is not something that for me right now is easily to accept. I find it fun to try hard. It is not like I expect others to have same fun. I'm not sure why you seem a little aggressive because I enjoy doing this. lol.

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Then stop talking about ping "hindering the game" when the game was never designed to be played that way.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

It is when you use your off global cooldowns twice before your global cooldowns is done. Is simple way to put it.

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ah, thank you ^^

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Originally Posted by TTiscancer

Then stop talking about ping "hindering the game" when the game was never designed to be played that way.

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And why should I stop talking about it? Many end game FCs and such require dps to do it. I don't know if it is by designed or not, but to act like it is not required is also a silly take. What is required is based off what the community that does the content wants to bring. We decide what the standards is. That is what a mmorpg is.

So lets say I make a LS that I want players to work on becoming the best they can with the class. Would that not require players to at least try and learn it? After all, if you can get more out of your class. Why would you not in that settings? To say it is not require to get the content done and that is true, but that goes against the nature of wanting players to try the best they can with the community i would want to build. So tell me. How would you answer that?

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

ah, thank you ^^

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No problem, the game does not teach you. So perfectly understandable you did not know. :)

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

This is true, but I do get enjoyment out of pushing a class to its limits. So it is not something that for me right now is easily to accept. I find it fun to try hard. It is not like I expect others to have same fun. I'm not sure why you seem a little aggressive because I enjoy doing this. lol.

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You enjoying it on a personal level has nothing to do with it being necessary for players to clear end game content.

The purpose of your post is a bit misleading if all you're trying to do is humble brag about your playstyle.

And i thought, endgame in FF14 is AFK'ing in Limsa?

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I've been working on getting better, and was thinking of tipping my toes into end game content. I'm not talking about randoms, but was thinking of starting a ls and building up like minded players who want to learn and get better. Try the hardest content. With that, I want to lead by example like I did when I was a raid leader in wow. So I get enjoyment out of playing a class to the fullest, but I come to understand two problems with this game.


1) Ping.
2) Double weaving.


I can do it, barely being on the east coast. It is not easy, and I come to understand a simple thing. My dps is going to take a hit not because of my skill, but because of latency. And if I tackle harder content. I will be fighting a uphill battle, trying to play my class to the fullest, and the boss itself. Most of the time it is fine, but when my nephew has online classes. Sister watching her Kpop stuff, and gaming with wife. Well I would have to balance around that. I think classes should have something to strive for, but I'm not so sure double weaving is it because of ping.


So my question is this, With many new players coming to the game, and some might be wanting to get into the end game. Do you think issues like this will arise, and do you feel this hinders the game?

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the simple solution would be to move out so you dont have to worry about family member induced lag.
also.. i dont think any DoH jobs need to double weave.. and your main job is a fisher.. soooo...

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

And why should I stop talking about it? Many end game FCs and such require dps to do it. I don't know if it is by designed or not, but to act like it is not required is also a silly take. What is required is based off what the community that does the content wants to bring. We decide what the standards is. That is what a mmorpg is.

So lets say I make a LS that I want players to work on becoming the best they can with the class. Would that not require players to at least try and learn it? After all, if you can get more out of your class. Why would you not in that settings? To say it is not require to get the content done and that is true, but that goes against the nature of wanting players to try the best they can with the community i would want to build. So tell me. How would you answer that?

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"The community" is full of trashcans who die to the first boss of Tower 10 times in a row. That's the level of skill and effort you're looking at. You wanna talk about "being the best"? How about first talk about ORANGE BAD. Cause those are the people who this game is designed for. Squeezing out dps with gimmicks is laughably POINTLESS. You achieve nothing but tire out your fingers.

And I really don't think anyone needs to bust their ass to complete any content. Even Ultimate. With how little DPS some players seem to do and still clear Ultimate a dozen times, peak efficiency is just a personal preference.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

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The GCD/oGCD skillset, as well as ping, are already taken into account by the battle designers for this game.

Double weaving may be something you can do, but it is not a requirement of the game design, nor is it particularly noteworthy as a "skill", as your high-end rig and praiseworthy ISP may be the sole reason that you succeed as often you do.

Consider that, unlike WoW, end-game content is designed to be accomplished by both PC users and PS4 console users, working together. On the same servers. Across vastly different networks with differing levels of performance.

Search

XIV Alexander. It's a cool raid boss. But it could also be something more.
You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Do you think issues like this will arise, and do you feel this hinders the game?

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Not really. I play with 120~130 ping. Yes, high latency has its issues, but it shouldn't stop you from trying your best (As much as your latency allows). You may want to try a gaming VPN like Exitlag, Battleping, Pingzapper, etc..

Some streamers have characters on multiple regions and still manage to clear hard endgame content even with high latency.

Sorry, if my wording was bad. I'm not saying that I want players to double weave, or that I look down on people. Or even if the content requires it.


I'm only speaking for myself, I enjoyed getting better with a guild or linkshell in this game. Like minded people who want to push jobs to the max and keep getting better with each other. I'm not sure why some of you got so offensive about that.
I even had a guy act like I was bragging. Really? I even said at the start I'm not good at it, and trying to get better. I enjoy getting better. Yet, some how that makes it seem like bragging?


The point of the thread was me saying that I don't enjoy ping being a gatekeeper for some players, and makes it harder to get the most out of your class. Even if it is not needed for the content. Some people gave me some answers to try out and I thank you. However, some of you need to chill with that passive aggressive stuff.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Sorry, if my wording was bad. I'm not saying that I want players to double weave, or that I look down on people. Or even if the content requires it.


I'm only speaking for myself, I enjoyed getting better with a guild or linkshell in this game. Like minded people who want to push jobs to the max and keep getting better with each other. I'm not sure why some of you got so offensive about that.
I even had a guy act like I was bragging. Really? I even said at the start I'm not good at it, and trying to get better. I enjoy getting better. Yet, some how that makes it seem like bragging?


The point of the thread was me saying that I don't enjoy ping being a gatekeeper for some players, and makes it harder to get the most out of your class. Even if it is not needed for the content. Some people gave me some answers to try out and I thank you. However, some of you need to chill with that passive aggressive stuff.

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There's nothing particularly wrong about what you said. What you address in ping and double weaving for certain jobs being a problem for playing those jobs at maximum potential is a legitimate and ongoing concern with the game. NIN changes for example were meant to alleviate the ping disparity, but such things have not been rolled out to all jobs quite yet. The fact that you are willingly going out of your way to think about these problems at all is a good start for promoting a healthy environment for bringing other players in your group up rather than tearing them down for things outside of their control.

Just because you can kill something sub-optimally, does not immediately invalidate the appeal of playing optimally for those who see personal performance as something to be proud of.

I will add my voice to the using a VPN option, I myself use Pingzapper despite being relatively close to the servers, and find it makes a noticeable difference in my gameplay, without going into more "contentious?" options. When it comes to double weaving, certain jobs certainly benefit more from double weaving than others, but that's not equivalent throughout the game. I don't know what you or someone who you might be trying to help is maining, so I can't offer specific advice, but with more details, I'm sure people would be happy to point you in the right direction for some single-weave openers, or alternate solutions to problems. While it may not be optimal, keep in mind that things like GCD uptime, number of usages in a fight, and general comfort with both your job and the fight mechanics make a more significant contribution to your overall performance than the difference between a single-weave and double-weaved opener, despite double-weaving being mathematically, objectively better.

Wanting to improve your own gameplay is admirable, and I think newer players who have a similar mindset of wanting to maximize their personal contribution to the party, will search for the ways to do so, and find them. It's not like we're hiding community resources. Rising tide uplifts all boats. You can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink, you know what I mean? If they are already searching and asking questions, they're doing the drinking part by default.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

So my question is this, With many new players coming to the game, and some might be wanting to get into the end game. Do you think issues like this will arise, and do you feel this hinders the game?

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For about two months after I moved, I lived in NA but still played on a JP server (ew).
I was able to do EX content all right and Savaged with some struggle. I was also double weaving.
I think people will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

The point of the thread was me saying that I don't enjoy ping being a gatekeeper for some players, and makes it harder to get the most out of your class. Even if it is not needed for the content.

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And what do you suggest SE do?