Really, really stupid idea on how to make AST's cards less galaxy brain for high-end.

So, my brain melts when trying to do the AST opener. I had this thought in regards to it.
I know it's probably really dumb and probably simplifies the class even more, but I figured I'd voice it anyways, because why not.

Reduce the damage potency of all the cards and the melee/ranged preferences on them.
Instead, make all the cards just an AoE buff. Divination instead responds to the cards played.

Balance: Increases Direct Hit chance.
Arrow: Reduces the cooldown reduction on actions.
Spear: Increases Critical Hit chance.
Bole: Reduces damage received.
Spire: HP Regen Effect
Ewer: MP Regen Effect

Stacking cards for Divination will not improve the buffs they provide and will reduce the potency of Divination, as it currently does. You can spam cards to stack their effects to the party, though, so long as the same card isn't played twice in a row, so the party can have Balance, Bole and Spear in their status bar buffing their damage% all at the same time. At the same time, change Sleeve Draw back to it's original ShB effect of instantly refreshing Draw twice while also making it so that it always selects a different card then one you've already used, making a full-powered Divination easy to achieve in the opener.

...? what? do you even know how the cards used to work????? they got rid of specific effects because they always only wanted to fish for the one that buffed DPS (the old Balance).

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

...? what? do you even know how the cards used to work????? they got rid of specific effects because they always only wanted to fish for the one that buffed DPS (the old Balance).

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Yes, I've played since Heavensward. And? My idea does not have guaranteed damage buffs on the individual cards, like the old Balance from before ShB, just buffs to chances and even then, they would likely be very tiny buffs to chance.
The current core concept of all the cards applying damage buffs and Divination being the big damage booster would still be there.

eh. they'll still only want damage up buffs no matter what. it would just be going back to the old system.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

eh. they'll still only want damage up buffs no matter what. it would just be going back to the old system.

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I don't see it as that way, because if you're holding off to get Balance, Spear and Arrow, you're pushing back Divination, which itself is a pure damage buff.
The idea would be that you could play the cards as you see fit for whatever situation. If you want to gamble for the miniscule chance increases, go ahead.
If you want more utility in terms of defense, go ahead and fish for those.
Or mix them... or ignore that concept all together because the buffs are so small that it's only going to be a matter of a .02%-.05% DPS increase anyways.

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Originally Posted by Rollout

Reduce the damage potency of all the cards and the melee/ranged preferences on them.
Instead, make all the cards just an AoE buff. Divination instead responds to the cards played.

Balance: Increases Direct Hit chance.
Arrow: Reduces the cooldown reduction on actions.
Spear: Increases Critical Hit chance.
Bole: Reduces damage received.
Spire: HP Regen Effect
Ewer: MP Regen Effect

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Balance: Weak damage buff, but people will pick this.
Arrow: Messing with cooldown means shifitng raidwide buff/debuff & personal alignment. DNC & NIN especially will murder me if I throw in this buff for them.
Spear: Weak damage buff, but people will pick this, possibly stacking it with Balance.
Bole: Nice on paper, so-so in progression, & will not be incorporated into consistent gameplay. What happen when you need a bole but your RNG decides not to give you one? Niche at best.
Spire: Free heal, can be used.
Ewer: Same with spire but less useful because probably only your cohealer will benefit from this and maybe DRK & RDM.

We’re going to end up with people 100% fishing for Balance & Spear. The third card will most likely be Bole, Spire, or Ewer but at the end of the day none of these in the 3rd slot will matter because the system locks them behind the unreliability that is an RNG; it won’t be reliable.

Also I’m not sure how galaxy brained the current AST divination opener when the current iteration of Sleeve Draw (as of 5.3) already trivializes the RNG factor; meaning it’s far easier than ever to acquire tri-seal Divination as of now.

When I read this I thought you were meaning similar to BRD buffs. You get a random card and play it like a bard buff ever x seconds.

I think the current card system is fine, many people manage it. And honestly it doesn't have to be perfectly used.

If you are in a position where you need to be good at the card system and maximise your opener, you are likely a person who is capable of it (like high end raiders).

If you are not, then its not gunna matter how perfectly you use it, you are still providing buffs.

The only way I can see cards getting more interesting effects again is if those effects are nothing but utility, put all the % damage increases into Divination and remove everything that increases % damage or buffs damage stats from the cards.
You will most likely still end up with one card being better than the others depending on it's effect but atleast the impact will be minor compared to 10-20% more damage for your entire party.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The only way I can see cards getting more interesting effects again is if those effects are nothing but utility, put all the % damage increases into Divination and remove everything that increases % damage or buffs damage stats from the cards.
You will most likely still end up with one card being better than the others depending on it's effect but atleast the impact will be minor compared to 10-20% more damage for your entire party.

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I agree. Placing offensive and utility buffs on a common resource and allowing them to be redrawn will always result in fishing for the offensive buffs.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Balance: Weak damage buff, but people will pick this.
Arrow: Messing with cooldown means shifitng raidwide buff/debuff & personal alignment. DNC & NIN especially will murder me if I throw in this buff for them.
Spear: Weak damage buff, but people will pick this, possibly stacking it with Balance.
Bole: Nice on paper, so-so in progression, & will not be incorporated into consistent gameplay. What happen when you need a bole but your RNG decides not to give you one? Niche at best.
Spire: Free heal, can be used.
Ewer: Same with spire but less useful because probably only your cohealer will benefit from this and maybe DRK & RDM.

We’re going to end up with people 100% fishing for Balance & Spear. The third card will most likely be Bole, Spire, or Ewer but at the end of the day none of these in the 3rd slot will matter because the system locks them behind the unreliability that is an RNG; it won’t be reliable.

Also I’m not sure how galaxy brained the current AST divination opener when the current iteration of Sleeve Draw (as of 5.3) already trivializes the RNG factor; meaning it’s far easier than ever to acquire tri-seal Divination as of now.

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Those effect are not on the cards themselves, though. They're simply bonuses that apply when Divination, which is still on the same cooldown, is used. Would you honestly hold off on using Divination just to have both Balance and Spear on it? No, you'd use what you have loaded up to get Divination off for the overall buff. The effects are just there for flavor and to keep the cards unique, while Divination is still the focus. That's what I meant.

Also, my brain more melts at trying to dish out cards to appropriate jobs while doing the opener. With this method, you don't have to target anything, just use the card.

A question that's always with me whenever people talk about Ast - Just how many people do we think actually use the card mechanic in day-to-day questing?
Not saying it's a good or bad mechanic here, I just wonder how used it is.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The only way I can see cards getting more interesting effects again is if those effects are nothing but utility, put all the % damage increases into Divination and remove everything that increases % damage or buffs damage stats from the cards.
You will most likely still end up with one card being better than the others depending on it's effect but atleast the impact will be minor compared to 10-20% more damage for your entire party.

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Exactly. Any kind of utility in the game that boosts damage% directly will always be the go-to route if they are ever paired with any other kind of utility.

Here are some ideas for buffs that don't boost damage directly:
- 5 seconds of Sprint
- Reboots the last shield or regen effect applied on the target
- Removes 5 seconds of the Weakened State debuff and applies a -10% damage taken buff
- +5% healing to all nearby targets
- Converts portion of damage dealt into healing for x seconds
- Buffs Piety for x seconds (disclaimer: this buff idea would only work if MP management would ever become relevant once more)

The +% damage boons could be exclusive to the Lady/Lord cards and Divination itself.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

A question that's always with me whenever people talk about Ast - Just how many people do we think actually use the card mechanic in day-to-day questing?
Not saying it's a good or bad mechanic here, I just wonder how used it is.

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In my case, whenever I'm questing with AST, I just forget about Divination and just keep using Minor Arcana... I presume that's the route most of people take?

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

A question that's always with me whenever people talk about Ast - Just how many people do we think actually use the card mechanic in day-to-day questing?
Not saying it's a good or bad mechanic here, I just wonder how used it is.

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There times I be lazy and dont bother depending on what am running, like as i said sbh cards are as boring as whm atm, i feel nothing more than a better mobile whm sch with tons in healing and what not but over real power for ast which of cards is as bland as sch ghosting fairy issue. I for one felt more busier with stormblood cards . It was okish at least in sbh till they butchered sleeve draw to single stuff thing. Some love it but I dont ast was made to be hard and stormblood system succeeded this by miles. least to make it less urking they could have maybe get rid if 3 cards in sbh system since 2 if each same brain dead thing. I was a rare one that had use for all cards cept spire back in sb when tp got taken away, yes i say this 50mil times now I know but...Hell rng of sbh is far more annoying and less awarding than sb. Sprouts new to ast get confused because story yalks about the skills like road and time dilation lol

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Balance: Weak damage buff, but people will pick this.
Arrow: Messing with cooldown means shifitng raidwide buff/debuff & personal alignment. DNC & NIN especially will murder me if I throw in this buff for them.
Spear: Weak damage buff, but people will pick this, possibly stacking it with Balance.
Bole: Nice on paper, so-so in progression, & will not be incorporated into consistent gameplay. What happen when you need a bole but your RNG decides not to give you one? Niche at best.
Spire: Free heal, can be used.
Ewer: Same with spire but less useful because probably only your cohealer will benefit from this and maybe DRK & RDM.

We’re going to end up with people 100% fishing for Balance & Spear. The third card will most likely be Bole, Spire, or Ewer but at the end of the day none of these in the 3rd slot will matter because the system locks them behind the unreliability that is an RNG; it won’t be reliable.

Also I’m not sure how galaxy brained the current AST divination opener when the current iteration of Sleeve Draw (as of 5.3) already trivializes the RNG factor; meaning it’s far easier than ever to acquire tri-seal Divination as of now.

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Blm loved arrow. They could then save their ley lines up. I only arrowed blms myself or whm/sch but never melee or physical dps or smn or rdm for them to chew me up

Ewer nice for if i died after i literally use lucid and it has to cd

Bole was nice for tank for trash pulls to help gravity trash.

spear very very very to me is niche but 10% crit monk and bard loves you though spread this via spire is 5 for entire team more crit bigger heal and dps

spire i burned it all the time after tp vaish as only ninja had use for it when they were tp heavy related from what a friend of mine told me who mains it.

Idk seem people all have the same mind set when it comes to playing healers . Even if something is not mostly used like synastry for me still has their use. All card while some are niche was good in their aspects. it utlilzing them for not just others to please in party but to also please you about why you play the class. Let someone be mad at me in stormblood cause i didnt only fish for balance oh well play ast yourself then xd. Like a fightning game the most nerf and water down char if used by the right player can be deadly even if others dont see how.

I always here this and from what I’ve seen on forums it was probably a small vocal minority who ruined things for the rest. The only bad card seemed the tp one and even that had a niche use

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Originally Posted by glamazon

I always here this and from what I’ve seen on forums it was probably a small vocal minority who ruined things for the rest. The only bad card seemed the tp one and even that had a niche use

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My point exactly only spire was very niche to the point of useless when tp was gone. Ninjas from what my ffriend who mains it tell me for them it was very nice when their skills was very tp reliant.

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Originally Posted by Rollout

Those effect are not on the cards themselves, though. They're simply bonuses that apply when Divination, which is still on the same cooldown, is used. Would you honestly hold off on using Divination just to have both Balance and Spear on it? No, you'd use what you have loaded up to get Divination off for the overall buff. The effects are just there for flavor and to keep the cards unique, while Divination is still the focus. That's what I meant.

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Oh I do get that you’re saying that those aren’t the effect of each individually played cards. Which is precisely why people -will- fish for that balance and spear possibly within first 3-5 GCD into pulltime even more; put anything offense related statistic and majority will gravitate toward those cards. It makes opener that doesn’t include both cards feel really awful to execute. I do like if the actual damage% buff only comes from the Divination. To avoid the fishing tendency, I think it might be better to leave the crit% & dh% out. Replace them with non-offensive options.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

snip

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Except with whatthr OP proposed, we don’t get to choose who we’re going to buff the arrow effect to. It’s essentially slapped together into the divination if an Arrow card is played. It’s basically: ” Hey, to those SMN, MCH, DNC, and NIN in the party: I’m sorry but for the raidwide damage% I must apologize if I get an Arrow card!”

Basically in this case it further reduce the reason to use Arrow if the party composition includes any of those alignment-sensitive classes—and even more reason to fish for Balance & Spear because those two are the only buffs that benefits the group no matter what phase the encounter is going through (except downtime).

No matter how you try to look at it, if one of the card has any sort of offensive buff slapped on them, that particular card will almost always be prioritized over the rest because as long as the encounter is still going on, there will be always something to attack (henceforth cause damage). Bole Spire and Ewer—according to the OP is just more situational than the ever-useful offensive buff. If all cards are situational then -perhaps- we can semi-eliminate fishings but at the same time it feels awry when you don’t get the cards you actually need at the moment. If it’s some crucial buff required for an encounter then being inconsistent in chance of success is the last thing you’ll want to see.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Oh I do get that you’re saying that those aren’t the effect of each individually played cards. Which is precisely why people -will- fish for that balance and spear possibly within first 3-5 GCD into pulltime even more; put anything offense related statistic and majority will gravitate toward those cards. It makes opener that doesn’t include both cards feel really awful to execute. I do like if the actual damage% buff only comes from the Divination. To avoid the fishing tendency, I think it might be better to leave the crit% & dh% out. Replace them with non-offensive options.



Except with whatthr OP proposed, we don’t get to choose who we’re going to buff the arrow effect to. It’s essentially slapped together into the divination if an Arrow card is played. It’s basically: ” Hey, to those SMN, MCH, DNC, and NIN in the party: I’m sorry but for the raidwide damage% I must apologize if I get an Arrow card!”

Basically in this case it further reduce the reason to use Arrow if the party composition includes any of those alignment-sensitive classes—and even more reason to fish for Balance & Spear because those two are the only buffs that benefits the group no matter what phase the encounter is going through (except downtime).

No matter how you try to look at it, if one of the card has any sort of offensive buff slapped on them, that particular card will almost always be prioritized over the rest because as long as the encounter is still going on, there will be always something to attack (henceforth cause damage). Bole Spire and Ewer—according to the OP is just more situational than the ever-useful offensive buff. If all cards are situational then -perhaps- we can semi-eliminate fishings but at the same time it feels awry when you don’t get the cards you actually need at the moment. If it’s some crucial buff required for an encounter then being inconsistent in chance of success is the last thing you’ll want to see.

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Fair point if is in that situation where all those job who dont want arrow and not the ones I mention happens which is surely possible yeah, I get what you mean heh.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Balance: Weak damage buff, but people will pick this.
Arrow: Messing with cooldown means shifitng raidwide buff/debuff & personal alignment. DNC & NIN especially will murder me if I throw in this buff for them.
Spear: Weak damage buff, but people will pick this, possibly stacking it with Balance.
Bole: Nice on paper, so-so in progression, & will not be incorporated into consistent gameplay. What happen when you need a bole but your RNG decides not to give you one? Niche at best.
Spire: Free heal, can be used.
Ewer: Same with spire but less useful because probably only your cohealer will benefit from this and maybe DRK & RDM.

We’re going to end up with people 100% fishing for Balance & Spear. The third card will most likely be Bole, Spire, or Ewer but at the end of the day none of these in the 3rd slot will matter because the system locks them behind the unreliability that is an RNG; it won’t be reliable.

Also I’m not sure how galaxy brained the current AST divination opener when the current iteration of Sleeve Draw (as of 5.3) already trivializes the RNG factor; meaning it’s far easier than ever to acquire tri-seal Divination as of now.

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The typical response.
Might as well delete all jobs but the 'best' one then. lol

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

The typical response.
Might as well delete all jobs but the 'best' one then. lol

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Perhaps?

We actually have that ‘best’ iteration now. It’s called melee vs ranged cards. Personally I don’t agree entirely to murder the variety, not especially when there were plenty the job quests were teaching us lore-wise, but it is what it is. They break down the illusion of having options and watered everything to one single buff the majority love: damage%.

Evidently It’s not the best solution but apparently it worked: people stop fishing because there’s simply nothing else to fish anymore (sadly).

Different buff effect will lead to a balance issue like back in HW or SB.
I prefer to use current system. But it need some improvement to control the RNG.
This is some small suggestion from me:

The type of card now affected by sect:
- Diurnal (melee card): enable draw for balance, arrow, spear. Minor arcana: Lord
- Nocturnal (range card): enable darw for bole, ewer, spear. Minor arcana: Lady
You can change sect in 5 sec CD during battle
We can keep the sect animation even if AST become pure healer :D

Redraw: Redraw a card from same sect deck. 3 charge
Ex: Redraw Balance, got either Arrow or Spear

Shuffle: shuffle a card from opposite deck while maintain the same seal. 3 charge
Ex: Shuffle Balance, always result in Bole

Sleeve Draw remain unchanged: give the missing seal while the card is random between diurnal or nocturnal deck.

We have less RNG in the system for seal (3 cards vs 6 cards during draw and redraw).
We can control the card in PUG when you got all melee dps or all range dps.

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Different buff effect will lead to a balance issue like back in HW or SB.
I prefer to use current system. But it need some improvement to control the RNG.
This is some small suggestion from me:

The type of card now affected by sect:
- Diurnal (melee card): enable draw for balance, arrow, spear. Minor arcana: Lord
- Nocturnal (range card): enable darw for bole, ewer, spear. Minor arcana: Lady
You can change sect in 5 sec CD during battle
We can keep the sect animation even if AST become pure healer :D

Redraw: Redraw a card from same sect deck. 3 charge
Ex: Redraw Balance, got either Arrow or Spear

Shuffle: shuffle a card from opposite deck while maintain the same seal. 3 charge
Ex: Shuffle Balance, always result in Bole

Sleeve Draw remain unchanged: give the missing seal while the card is random between diurnal or nocturnal deck.

We have less RNG in the system for seal (3 cards vs 6 cards during draw and redraw).
We can control the card in PUG when you got all melee dps or all range dps.

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yup my point exactly least remove 3 of the cards make rng less annoying and draw to 15 sec be nice. Though I wonder those who hated stormblood cards why not simply have not play another job? Those few who complained about stormblood cards I mean if it was too hard or much there is simplier whm or medium difficult sch who was dps heavy then. Finally there is dps who is about damage damage nothing but damage , sam and bm being top who has no party contribution in what I call selfish dp s a meme. Those obess about damage easy fix play dps. Seem people say current cards is boring yet things that does other boost like defense up, heal pot up or debuff none wants yhat jusy more damage. oh yeah smn bard monk dragon dancer give buff similar or yet better to party vs dry ast single 5% boost and theirs is party wide how silly i forgot. point of sbh cards again?

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

The typical response.
Might as well delete all jobs but the 'best' one then. lol

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It's the sensible response.

Sure, you might find abilities that are often useless or even directly detrimental to others "fun" because you can sit in your own bubble and pretend you're helping, but others don't. It has nothing to do with being the best, raiding or min-maxing either, some of us just don't want bad abilities on a class designed to support and contribute to the party.

Remove all healers let blue be the new healer since it has everything am sure people want for healers. It has buffs debuff, heals, migi, res heck even dps rotations to boot o.o

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

Remove all healers let blue be the new healer since it has everything am sure people want for healers. It has buffs debuff, heals, migi, res heck even dps rotations to boot o.o

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To be fair, I'd play Blue mage as a healer if you can take more than 24 skills at any given time. You have an AoE cleanse/Esuna (Exuviation), AoE Heal (Stotram + Exuviation), AoE Shield (Gobskin), single target heal (Pom cure), Big AoE heal cd (Angel's Snack), Support utility (off-guard), and a legitimate DPS rotation with primal skills. Heck, we even have an AoE Holy (Bomb Toss / Tatami-gaeshi), mitigation (bad breath / magic hammer), and dispell (Eerie Soundwave). We have a gap closer (J kick), and we have a yeet that can be used as a rescue when done properly (Malediction of Water). Only our ress has a big penalty, but imo that's fine because the co-healer and a lot caster DPS also have a ress.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

To be fair, I'd play Blue mage as a healer if you can take more than 24 skills at any given time. You have an AoE cleanse/Esuna (Exuviation), AoE Heal (Stotram + Exuviation), AoE Shield (Gobskin), single target heal (Pom cure), Big AoE heal cd (Angel's Snack), Support utility (off-guard), and a legitimate DPS rotation with primal skills. Heck, we even have an AoE Holy (Bomb Toss / Tatami-gaeshi), mitigation (bad breath / magic hammer), and dispell (Eerie Soundwave). We have a gap closer (J kick), and we have a yeet that can be used as a rescue when done properly (Malediction of Water). Only our ress has a big penalty, but imo that's fine because the co-healer and a lot caster DPS also have a ress.

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Yes I underestimate it and what been making me keep from being bored of the game is this class, I am stumped on what it does, it is pretty much all the current 3 healers in one with dps options to boot, healer stance is stupid op , it even had me turn my chocobo today from healer to a dps for even more damage since in healer stance with these broken cure spells i dont have to worry on tipping over, Even in healer stance its damage is insane, I saw on a redit post what tank/healer/stance does here https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...erial_mimicry/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...erial_mimicry/

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

Remove all healers let blue be the new healer since it has everything am sure people want for healers. It has buffs debuff, heals, migi, res heck even dps rotations to boot o.o

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BLU Healer is great, it's a lot of fun to play and has a solid toolkit. There's definitely a lot they could learn from BLU healing. I'm sort of hoping they were using BLU as an experimental base to test potential ideas to add to actual classes later.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

BLU Healer is great, it's a lot of fun to play and has a solid toolkit. There's definitely a lot they could learn from BLU healing. I'm sort of hoping they were using BLU as an experimental base to test potential ideas to add to actual classes later.

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BLU healer to me feels a lot like the ARR healers, but with very complex dps kits.

I think it works great, but I wouldn't mind if we got more out of the box healing spells there... Something with more interactability as opposed of just flat heals. I suppose whatever they add for new updates would have to go that way since they are pretty much covered as far as basic healing goes.

Blue healing too addicting seriously I just feel I have so much to do gosh cant wait till we can do sbh content when i hope they put cap for blue at 80 hehe.

I miss royal road.

Kill old balance and bring back the old card system. Maybe also reimagine bole or buff it severely, it was situationally useful at best.

Yup so much flavor even if a few was very nitche

Hey Averax,

I made a version that goes in the same way you want only that kill the balance changes in something that feels better:

Marius Idea to change the AST Card problems

This is a compromise for both sides. So for lovers of the old or new style of Cardplay.

Okay there is no "royal road" but "Spread" strikes back =)