New Dancer ability in the benchmark

After checking out the new dancer ability it seems to be another step of some kind with a bluish finish. Beautifully done by the way. What do you guys think it does? I’m sure it’s a buff but will it buff just your dancer partner or the entire party? Also what effect do you think it will have? Haste maybe? Drain effect? Hp and mp regen?

What are you guys thoughts?

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Also what effect do you think it will have?

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10% damage up for 60 seconds

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Originally Posted by Aurida

10% damage up for 60 seconds

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Oh you think it will increase the standard step from 5%-10%? But why do that? Just make a trait that that increases standard step.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Oh you think it will increase the standard step from 5%-10%? But why do that? Just make a trait that that increases standard step.

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Maybe it requires more steps? The Finish would need to do more damage too; not because it's an upgraded action but because additional time locked in the dance.

Probably not increasing to 10% though; based on past upgrades I'd guess more like 8%. It's a damage increase to two players, not just one, and 5%->10% would be a big upgrade even for one person. For reference ShB traited SAM's maintenance buffs up from 10% to 13%, while BLM traits Enochian from 5% up to 15%. Enochian is unusual in that dropping it locks BLM out of their most powerful spells, and dropping it is much more punishing than just the lost 15% bonus, so a 10% increase is easier to justify for BLM. It may be harder to justify a 5% increase to a Standard Finish that buffs two players.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Maybe it requires more steps? The Finish would need to do more damage too; not because it's an upgraded action but because additional time locked in the dance.

Probably not increasing to 10% though; based on past upgrades I'd guess more like 8%. It's a damage increase to two players, not just one, and 5%->10% would be a big upgrade even for one person. For reference ShB traited SAM's maintenance buffs up from 10% to 13%, while BLM traits Enochian from 5% up to 15%. Enochian is unusual in that dropping it locks BLM out of their most powerful spells, and dropping it is much more punishing than just the lost 15% bonus, so a 10% increase is easier to justify for BLM. It may be harder to justify a 5% increase to a Standard Finish that buffs two players.

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But we have damage so I hope it’s something else. Really don’t need a second damage buff. We already have a 100% uptime 10% since both dancer and partner each get 5%. More different utility Im hoping for. Like a haste skill will be ideal. We don’t have any attack speed buffs but bard I think.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

But we have damage so I hope it’s something else. Really don’t need a second damage buff.

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I didn't say it's a second buff.

You asked why it would be a different action instead of just increasing the effect of Standard Step by trait. I'm saying maybe they want the upgraded action to require more steps, and if so it might be a new action rather than a trait that increases the effect of Standard Step.

Standard Step. Technical Step.

Lv 81 - 90 It might be Standard Steps' Trait upgrade, or a different step sequence - Advanced Step (requiring 3 steps).
If that's the case, Lv 100 maybe Ultimate Step becomes Technical Step's Trait upgrade... or a 5 step sequence.

It's possible that it could be a 2-step sequence or 4-step sequence, but instead of superbuffing your attack, it does damage, but also gives a bonus party defense buff too. If that happened, we may see a return of MCH's dismantle or bard getting another support buff. We'll have to see.

The main thing we have to go off of at this point is that the special effect is blue rather than gold. Why? Color usually means something in this game, so the fact that it's blue makes me want to believe that its effect is different than the typical 5% damage buff we're familiar with. I'm also curious about where in our 2 minute rotation it's supposed to fit. There's very little to go off of course, but I'm going to throw out an idea...

I think this new Step will share a recast timer with Standard Step, be a 2-step dance, and have the same DPS potency while granting a different effect. This would make the dance interchangeable with Standard Step, which works out nicely since Standard Finish lasts 60 seconds despite Standard Step being used on CD. This means we could possibly take advantage of those otherwise useless additional 30 seconds (though they are nice for holding onto the buff between pulls/phases otherwise), and give us some other form of utility to weave into our rotation when we see fit. For that reason, I believe this will have a more defensive form of utility (maybe only 30 seconds, or possibly even less depending since it likely won't be something designed to be maintained throughout the fight like Standard Finish is).

Here are some ideas:
1. Defense Up +5-10% for 15-30 seconds (it's a really boring option that I'm not a huge fan of, but it's the most straightforward possibility). You could also stack this with Shield Samba for additional mitigation. Too much for a DPS? Possibly, though they did put a pretty massive emphasis on barriers/defenses throughout the benchmark (New barriers for PLD, SGE, AST, and probably SCH along with upgrades to Blackest Night and Divine Benison). It could be that they're trying to up the damage finally but are trying to be more cautious about it?

2. Lost Sprint effect. This one's more wishful thinking, though not all of you might like the idea. Bozja's Lost Sprint speed is something I became really fond of and is an interesting way to approach defensive utility indirectly. It helps your party position themselves theoretically, but doesn't offer any actual value when receiving a hit.

3. Some kind of debuff on enemies in range rather than on allies. Dancer has historically always been a very debuff-heavy support in Final Fantasy, something that's unusually absent from FFXIV, so perhaps they could be trying some sort of damage down on enemies to foil the damage up Standard and Technical buffs. It's pretty similar to option 1, but I like this more on a thematic level and feels like it makes even more sense with the color scheme, though personally I'd like to see a bit more of an interesting debuff like Slow.

I think it could be taken in any number of directions, but what do you think about something along these lines?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Here are some ideas:
1. Defense Up +5-10% for 15-30 seconds (it's a really boring option that I'm not a huge fan of, but it's the most straightforward possibility). You could also stack this with Shield Samba for additional mitigation. Too much for a DPS? Possibly, though they did put a pretty massive emphasis on barriers/defenses throughout the benchmark (New barriers for PLD, SGE, AST, and probably SCH along with upgrades to Blackest Night and Divine Benison). It could be that they're trying to up the damage finally but are trying to be more cautious about it?

3. Some kind of debuff on enemies in range rather than on allies. Dancer has historically always been a very debuff-heavy support in Final Fantasy, something that's unusually absent from FFXIV, so perhaps they could be trying some sort of damage down on enemies to foil the damage up Standard and Technical buffs. It's pretty similar to option 1, but I like this more on a thematic level and feels like it makes even more sense with the color scheme, though personally I'd like to see a bit more of an interesting debuff like Slow.

I think it could be taken in any number of directions, but what do you think about something along these lines?

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I definitely like your idea about debuff. It could truly be that. I almost forgot dancers were debuff heavy in past games. So yeah I can see that happening. I don’t think it will be defense but I could be wrong there too. Maybe we will get closed position 2 to have a second dance partner and which ever step you use first goes to the first one and the second step goes to the second one. Thinking a bit outside the box but it could happen.

Given that you get a 1min buff on a 30 sec timer, it's reasonable to think that perhaps this alternative dance finish is a higher potency hit (Or perhaps a higher-over-time influx for the dancer) but doesn't refresh Standard Step.

What if it's just a single button ability like Shield Samba that gives haste or life leech?

I could also see them giving you a trait/s that upgrades Standard / Technical Step into new dances with 1 extra step in them. So 3 and 5 respectfully.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

What if it's just a single button ability like Shield Samba that gives haste or life leech?

I could also see them giving you a trait/s that upgrades Standard / Technical Step into new dances with 1 extra step in them. So 3 and 5 respectfully.

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Well haste is the bane of Dancer's existence so I doubt it will be something like that, besides it pretty clearly uses an animation similar to that of Standard/Technical so it probably will have steps to some degree. I'm not really sure what the point of adding to the step count would be for extra potency. What does that really add to dancer's playstyle?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What does that really add to dancer's playstyle?

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Most jobs don't need changes to their playstyles. There are only two or three jobs that need changes and I wouldn't consider DNC one of them. We don't have to change every job's rotation or playstyle every expansion. Just update action potencies via upgrade or trait.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Most jobs don't need changes to their playstyles. There are only two or three jobs that need changes and I wouldn't consider DNC one of them. We don't have to change every job's rotation or playstyle every expansion. Just update action potencies via upgrade or trait.

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I disagree. I think Dancer is in a great spot, but it also needs a bit of spice to give it a smidge more depth. We have the technical step phase, which is mostly great. Only real area that needs a dash of QoL improvement if when you generate so much Esprit that you lose Flourish procs. Just a little something to resolve that issue would be fantastic.

Proc generation is pretty agreed upon that it would greatly benefit from a bit more ways to control the RNG. Some suggestions I've seen include decreasing Flourish's CD to 30 seconds so you have more opportunities to force procs, or some alternative tools that could increase the rate at which you gain procs to some degree. Something to shorten the gap between high luck and low luck proc RNG.

Outside of technical windows, Dancer slows down a lot and could use a bit more activity between those windows, though I've already brought up how the benchmark dance could actually be something added to create that extra bit of oomph, and if the proc generation point gets addressed, then that would also contribute to more active 'downtime' between technical windows (it's not really 'downtime' by definition, but you get what I'm trying to say).

A lot of us would appreciate some more Esprit actions to give us a bit more decision-making with that resource. We will probably get a single target saber dance. It seems pretty inevitable at this point, but something else to spend Esprit on that has a bit of a different use to make you have to decide when to use that would be really nice. Also, I'd love to see Confuse get added to something for dungeon trash. Yeah, it doesn't actually add anything either, but it's nice thematically since that was Dancer's original go-to status effect and would be a cool form of utility for trash enemies. As long as it's attached to something that has an actual primary function, I think it'd be fine.

Depending on the fight, Improvisation is either entirely useless or almost entirely useless. Let's kill it or change it.

Some other small changes I'd include: A trait that increases Esprit generation when not in a party (for instance battles and MSQ content). Lower Flourish's acquisition down to level 54. There's an empty space at that level in Dancer's kit and Dancer's kinda bland when synched. This won't fix all synched content but it would make a chunk more of content a little more entertaining when doing roulettes and whatnot

All-in-all, Dancer's really great right now and doesn't need any dramatic changes, but there are plenty of nooks and crannies in its kit that could benefit from a bit more depth getting added or QoL improvements. I don't think increasing the step count on standard or technical do anything though. It's not really addressing any issues with the kit (big or small) and it could actually be damaging to the current rotation. If you're using your GCD on time, your standard steps will come off cooldown exactly as you finish other GCD actions, which is a small but nice little area of mastery that we dancers get to experience, but if there are extra steps to standard and technical step, that would slightly offset that very clean synchronization and take away that bit of mastery.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Well haste is the bane of Dancer's existence so I doubt it will be something like that

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Not a DNC main so I don't know what stats are best for DNC but wouldn't a lower GCD be good since it means more procs so more dmg. I know melding for SkS is bad because you sacrifice melding crit, dir or even det but if DNC had a self haste buff to lower their GCD without having to meld SkS wouldn't that be good for them. A DNC also doesn't have much of a strict rotation that requires their actions fall within buff windows.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The other issue with Skill Speed is that, because Standard and Technical Step are both GCD actions with elongated cooldowns, they also have their recasts reduced by Skill Speed.

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Steps trigger the GCD but they are not GCD actions. They are Abilities and their recast timers are fixed.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I disagree. I think Dancer is in a great spot, but it also needs a bit of spice to give it a smidge more depth. We have the technical step phase, which is mostly great. Only real area that needs a dash of QoL improvement if when you generate so much Esprit that you lose Flourish procs. Just a little something to resolve that issue would be fantastic.

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This could easily be handled by give a trait, or preferably just make Saber Dance do it by default, where when you use Saber Dance it refreshes any procs you currently have up for your weapon skills.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Proc generation is pretty agreed upon that it would greatly benefit from a bit more ways to control the RNG. Some suggestions I've seen include decreasing Flourish's CD to 30 seconds so you have more opportunities to force procs, or some alternative tools that could increase the rate at which you gain procs to some degree. Something to shorten the gap between high luck and low luck proc RNG.

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Or they could just go the MCH route and remove RNG altogether. No job should ever really have to depend on RNG to be good or playable imo.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Outside of technical windows, Dancer slows down a lot and could use a bit more activity between those windows, though I've already brought up how the benchmark dance could actually be something added to create that extra bit of oomph, and if the proc generation point gets addressed, then that would also contribute to more active 'downtime' between technical windows (it's not really 'downtime' by definition, but you get what I'm trying to say).

A lot of us would appreciate some more Esprit actions to give us a bit more decision-making with that resource. We will probably get a single target saber dance. It seems pretty inevitable at this point, but something else to spend Esprit on that has a bit of a different use to make you have to decide when to use that would be really nice. Also, I'd love to see Confuse get added to something for dungeon trash. Yeah, it doesn't actually add anything either, but it's nice thematically since that was Dancer's original go-to status effect and would be a cool form of utility for trash enemies. As long as it's attached to something that has an actual primary function, I think it'd be fine.

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I'm actually fine with just Saber Dance. Matter of fact I don't want them to give a single target version of it like I'm sure they will. Just make Saber Dance do full damage to a single target then divide that damage among all the ones hit. I personally think, if they keep the RNG aspect of dancer, that Saber Dance should have a 50% chance of procing a phoenix feather, basically and upgraded fan dance move that you can store for later for people that do that.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Depending on the fight, Improvisation is either entirely useless or almost entirely useless. Let's kill it or change it.

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Improv really just needs to not need other players. You'd probably see a lot more DNCs use it during downtime like SAMs do with Meditation. The fact you can't always get all 8 party members to stand together really hurts it.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Some other small changes I'd include: A trait that increases Esprit generation when not in a party (for instance battles and MSQ content). Lower Flourish's acquisition down to level 54. There's an empty space at that level in Dancer's kit and Dancer's kinda bland when synched. This won't fix all synched content but it would make a chunk more of content a little more entertaining when doing roulettes and whatnot

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I think the only thing DNC really needs to learn earlier is Closed Position.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

All-in-all, Dancer's really great right now and doesn't need any dramatic changes, but there are plenty of nooks and crannies in its kit that could benefit from a bit more depth getting added or QoL improvements. I don't think increasing the step count on standard or technical do anything though. It's not really addressing any issues with the kit (big or small) and it could actually be damaging to the current rotation. If you're using your GCD on time, your standard steps will come off cooldown exactly as you finish other GCD actions, which is a small but nice little area of mastery that we dancers get to experience, but if there are extra steps to standard and technical step, that would slightly offset that very clean synchronization and take away that bit of mastery.

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I dont think we will see "haste" ever because balancing it could be a pain, the only "haste" we have is on Bozja and Eureka which is side content.

Its just going to be a straight buff to what we know Crit/Dmg/Direct or a big aoe, SE stepped away from mp restoration outside of healers own kit so i dont see that coming back. If they add it as a heal ... its going to be virtually pointless and only cause overheal ... your healer would not expect you to use it and just do his normal healing.

it could be a straight upgrade to standart finish? 5% for whole team, the gauge thingy would still only be on your dance partner on standart though.

What about maybe a 30 second DoT effect? If memory serves me correctly, DNC is the only Ranged class without a DoT effect, and it'd free up the extra 30 seconds in the Level 80 rotation. Maybe 3 steps?