Eden 6-8 Normal Are Too Overtuned

PREFACE: I beat E6-E8 normal on first attempt today. So the canned response of "you can't beat it get gud" does not apply to my complaint here. You can beat something and think it's overtuned; not mutually exclusive.

After beating these as a first timer today, I believe Eden 6-8 are way overtuned for normal and this seems to be an overcorrection from people complaining Alexander normals were too easy. E6-8 normals have savage tier mechanics that are not justified in my opinion, such as 0KO quick sliding and mechanics with no time to react unless you know what the mechanic does before you entered the instance and before your first attempt. As a contrast, I think Alphascape properly did normals vs savage such as the snake boss where normal had guardrails for positioning while savage removed those guardrails (so you could slide off). In contrast, E8 Shiva normal has no guardrails plus many mechanics that are virtually insta-cast.

E6-E8 is way too much of an overcorrection to people complaining normals are too easy. Alphascape got it right. SE has to dial back normal raids moving forward.

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Originally Posted by Auteur

SE has to dial back normal raids moving forward.

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What did you think of 9-12?

>Coeurl

uh huh

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Originally Posted by MPK

>Coeurl

uh huh

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As the Master Raider you feel you are, maybe responding with something a bit more substantive about how the mechanics are proper in the Normal verisions because of how the Savage version builds on them. Or any other mechanical based argument rather than just

'oh you're from one of those servers'

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

As the Master Raider you feel you are, maybe responding with something a bit more substantive about how the mechanics are proper in the Normal verisions because of how the Savage version builds on them. Or any other mechanical based argument rather than just

'oh you're from one of those servers'

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.. It's MPK.. look at their sig. Their posts are generally comically outrageous elitist fluff. I suggest ignoring them. It made my forum experience better.

Relativity.

Normals are all too easy, (that includes e6-e8 normal) that's why there's such a huge difficulty curve to savage. The fact people are going to die to a mechanic because they haven't seen it before is not a bad thing.

My brain ok let's take this one step at a time.

E6N - the worst thing about this fight is the visuals, This fight can be slowly killed with a single tank and a single healer, if that is overtuned I hate to think what would be classed as impossible.

E7N - Portals are not 1 shot and the 1st set is very slow to happen to ease you into what will be happening for the fight, adds dps check is very lenient, the only thing that's a 1 shot is putting both stack markers together and by this point in the game you have encountered this exact mechanic at least twice(possibly way more depending if used a skip potion or not)

E8N - no guard rails and ice slip and sliding this is what you called overtuned, no it is not, no guard rails been a thing since lv 34 Story mode Titan and Titan was permanently dead until wipe or victory, here your able to be ressed, slip and sliding has been a thing since lv 50 Shiva trial the story one and guess what it too had an edge of the arena mechanic where you touched the edge you get frozen and need to be broken out. You are lv80 and they introduced both of these things by lv50, this is not what constitutes overtuned.

Overtuned fights would mean they are legimately hard for the vast majority of the playerbase, which they are not because if they were in any capacity you bet the devs would've nerfed them by now since it has been over a year since they were released, they haven't thus it is safe to assume enough members of the playerbase are clearing these fights perfectly fine that the devs don't feel they need to be touched.

You may not know this but people complained the Weeping City of Mhach was too hard, the devs response "Git Gud" sometimes the devs do adjust content when they feel it needs to be these nerfs usually show up when the next part of the story it is tied to is out sometimes earlier if they feel it is too much, these fights have remained untouched make of that what you will.

Have to laugh that you want to compare Alte Roite which was regard as the easiest savage fight ever released so let that speak volumes to the level of difficulty people think of Alte Roite normal to E8 as a way to design fights to appropriate difficulty, fights are meant to get harder as you progress through a story not easier.




TLDR: these fights are fine if they were overtuned the devs would've done something about them by now since they have been released for over a year at this point.

Compared to what? Dungeons? Besides savage the difficulty in the game is a utter joke nothing in the game is overturned if anything most contend is undertuned

All of the Eden Normals are easy. If you don't understand the mechanics then keep doing them until you do. E6 was pretty straight forward to me even blind. E7 the only part that confused me was the portals and that's because as a melee player I wasn't looking behind and didn't see the demonstration of the mechanic. The only confusing part of E8 is the mirrors and once you understand how exactly the reflections work you know what to do, but if you are new you can just follow everybody else. The difficulty of E6-8 doesn't matter because gear increases quickly made the mechanics do no real damage and now the hardest parts just get skipped or aren't as bad.

The Eden Normals were meant to be progressively tuned to be harder with each tier, to the point that I was surprised casual players even rountinely clear the current 4. I really did not believe they could do these sort of mechanics that involve thinking.

You suggest that Alphascape was easier than the second Eden tier, but it included O11 famous for larboard and starboard, which to this day wipes the floor with parties and res abilities are constantly being used just to beat it. Then you have O12 which requires proper tanking at the end and a lot of AoE for the healers to handle and a lot of healers couldn't handle it, because as a paladin at the time I had to save a lot of runs with clemency when the healers died.

Nobody was complaining that the Alexander normals were too easy, because when they were current, a third of parties simply did not clear A11 and abandoned. It was also normal to healer LB3 A12 at first and in A9 there is a doorboss where the tanks share damage and the second fight deals heavy damage and requires the parts to be done properly. Why is Alexander not that hard now? Because of gear and how we sync down to the maximum item level. If you do it minimum item level it's a lot different than what you experience in the roulette.

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Originally Posted by Auteur

PREFACE: I beat E6-E8 normal on first attempt today. So the canned response of "you can't beat it get gud" does not apply to my complaint here. You can beat something and think it's overtuned; not mutually exclusive.

After beating these as a first timer today, I believe Eden 6-8 are way overtuned for normal and this seems to be an overcorrection from people complaining Alexander normals were too easy. E6-8 normals have savage tier mechanics that are not justified in my opinion, such as 0KO quick sliding and mechanics with no time to react unless you know what the mechanic does before you entered the instance and before your first attempt. As a contrast, I think Alphascape properly did normals vs savage such as the snake boss where normal had guardrails for positioning while savage removed those guardrails (so you could slide off). In contrast, E8 Shiva normal has no guardrails plus many mechanics that are virtually insta-cast.

E6-E8 is way too much of an overcorrection to people complaining normals are too easy. Alphascape got it right. SE has to dial back normal raids moving forward.

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Who are you fighting for ? Who is this argument supposed to benefit ? This is not even a git gud argument.
Day one, everyone thinks something is hard because they're not experienced in the fight.
As someone who did do the savage E6-E8, there is a clear and fair line between basic and advanced skills needed to understand and get through the fight.
The developers are assuming that as you have gotten to this point in the game, you will have come to understand that falling off a platform is a basic possibility. Training wheels are off.

Imo, as raid tiers release or even as expansions release, developers should continue to up the baseline of what is expected little by little in accordance to the current dungeon mechanics as well.
Just as we come to understand that a spell is called Fire IV or that standing in orange is bad, we should also come to evolve our thinking that maybe not every platform is safe even in normal mode.
To me, the devs did a good job in upping the game in this expansion for normal. It keeps content fresh, exciting, and allows players to be able to talk through the mechanics.

I want to mess up and learn, even in normal. Anything involving a group of people in raids be it normal or savage should be a learning experience, especially if you're new to the game or to the raid.

Can we stop overnerfing difficulty for the lazy and selfish people that call themselves "casuals"?

I swears it feels like the average player level is decreasing with each year instead of increasing

Nope sorry don't touch this fight plz SQ, they are great, I love E6 as a tank. I hope someday people will understand that difficulty is a good thing.

A good fight need a least one wippe in my opinion to understand the mechs, if we one shot everything what's the point ?
Stop with that kind of thread, we should make one asking for more challenging content, many "casual" players thinks the game is too easy.

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Originally Posted by Endariel

I swears it feels like the average player level is decreasing with each year instead of increasing

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It very clearly is

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

As the Master Raider you feel you are, maybe responding with something a bit more substantive about how the mechanics are proper in the Normal verisions because of how the Savage version builds on them.

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Haven't heard of raiding Savage making anyone pleasantly articulate or smart... like that. Definitely did not make me either, Ultimate is not helping either.

If not by raiding... how one becomes less smug trashbag, pls send halp QQ

The only real problem with the Eden normal raids are that they drop too much loot. 8 pieces are simply too much. So you just kill it once per week and are done. This way you don't properly learn the fights. In Alexander and Omega, where less items dropped, you had to clear the fights multiple times to win your loot for the week against the other people. And while doing so you got enough practice in the fights.

And now the roulette throws you into a fight wich you have done only 3 times a few months ago and nobody knows what's going on.

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

As the Master Raider you feel you are, maybe responding with something a bit more substantive about how the mechanics are proper in the Normal verisions because of how the Savage version builds on them. Or any other mechanical based argument rather than just

'oh you're from one of those servers'

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No point explaining that to a data center filled with casuals. Telling them to git gud is far more productive.

None of these are overtuned but E8N is easily a casual wall and requires some patience for players to learn.
I got lucky on my first run with some friends but everytime i find this in roulette, people just struggle, even during the split group phase with healers not healing and always ends up some people leaving after a single wipe.

No need to nerf either way

For me it was more or less like old school Titan. If anyone remembers, doing Titan HM or Ex was wild in early 2.0…and basically boiled down to knowing his rotation and pre-moving/anticipating what to do before it happens. Once you got that down he’s cake.

More or less the same for any raids on normal mode. There are some heavy hits and the debuff for screwing up which can be punishing, but we’re you to go through it like…a half dozen times, you’d have the fight down. For me personally, that’s a good spot for NM- I fully expect to die several times unless I watch a vid before hand, and (again) for me that is fine.

You can't possibly pass Bismark and Shinryu to then say E8N is too hard because of no barrier?

"This is too hard, nerf this" is an endless cycle because player level varies from extreme levels. There is always someone worse than the worst player you've seen and if each bad player want content nerfed for their comfort, you will endlessly nerf content as player will not learn basic things. For example, not falling off the cliff!
Meanwhile veteran players that got used to challenges will feel those content as a snooze. Nerfing content is trying to please everyone, you'll please no one.

There is many players who beat ultimate with various handicap, surely you can make an effort about not falling off a cliff?

It's been ages since I did them, but I don't remember anything but maybe the dark/light bird guy being any tricker than the norm for a normal raid. And I'm not sure how they could change that to make it more forgiving, especially at this point when I'm willing to bet a fair share of people probably wildly outgear it at this point. It should theoretically be easier than it was at the start by now. It's also probably my favorite fight of all of them though, so I mean. I dunno. Take that as you will. Shiva is probably the second trickiest there but I mean. Even Alexander 9 is still tricky too if your tanks are new (or if anyone else is new and decides to pick up the batteries without knowing what they're for). I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, even if it does lead to a few wipes.

The only fight that I really hated of all the Eden normals was the ifrigaruda fight and it wasn't even because of the fight itself. It's because of the wildly spinning green and red vortex on the edge of the arena. E6 is the only fight in the game that makes me feel genuinely physically ill (like, for real, so nauseous I need to aim my camera straight down and not look away from the floor to even be able to do it) every time I do it, and so I plan to do it exactly never again if I can help it. I can't even really judge how easy or hard it is because all I remember about it are running back and forth a lot, some feather mechanic that was kinda hard to see until we figured out the indicator, and feeling so sick I had to stare at my feet til it finally ended. x.x Probably couldn't been a neat fight if I could, you know, stomach it. Heh.

When they're released and have loot lockouts they're supposed to last you Months.

It's fine to not understand a mechanic first try, especially on that kind of timeline. Practice.

It's over-geared content now without gear sync.
So where the other 7 people new to it?

They’re not overtuned, I’m just bad.

I don’t understand how these fights could be considered overtuned when o11 has the infamous larboard/starboard though; that one on launch was a beautiful mess.

I’d love to see more of all of these things. Normal does not equate to things you’ve seen elsewhere or only things you’re comfortable with. I was in love with Eden normal until e12 and its coffee biscuit exposition that made repeated runs insufferable. I love that fight’s novel mechanics, but the cutscenes and bouncy pads kill it.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

For me it was more or less like old school Titan. If anyone remembers, doing Titan HM or Ex was wild in early 2.0…and basically boiled down to knowing his rotation and pre-moving/anticipating what to do before it happens. Once you got that down he’s cake.

More or less the same for any raids on normal mode. There are some heavy hits and the debuff for screwing up which can be punishing, but we’re you to go through it like…a half dozen times, you’d have the fight down. For me personally, that’s a good spot for NM- I fully expect to die several times unless I watch a vid before hand, and (again) for me that is fine.

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I remember those days very well. Titan HM was used in the first Relic and was a wall for quite a few people, including myself. This had to do with the latency we had back then, that were new to the mechanics used in that fight and simply less experienced in dodging them. This meant that we had to learn the order in which the mechanics would appear and anticipate when you should be moving out of the way (especially with "Weight of the World"), like you said. Because the timing was pretty tight for a European player on an NA Server (there wasn't an EU Datacenter at that time), we would really have to work on our dodging.

Due to this, i've learned how to "slide cast" (by moving at just before the cast goes off and doesn't cancel it) or recognize patterns, so that i can move as little as possible and keep casting. It's all about practice and muscle memory. Keep practicing the moves and you'll get it eventually.

I think the current NM difficulty is at a good spot, with dungeons at the entry level, trials as an introduction of the more mechanic heavy fights and the 8 man Raids as training for the other difficulty levels. Once you get more experienced, move to EX Trails and work your way up to Savage / Ultimate.

Personally, i don't watch video's for dungeons and Normal trials / raids. They can be learned simply by experiencing them a few times. I'd even go as far as joining / forming blind learning groups for Ex Trials. They are fun to figure out ourselves, as a group.

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

As the Master Raider you feel you are, maybe responding with something a bit more substantive about how the mechanics are proper in the Normal verisions because of how the Savage version builds on them. Or any other mechanical based argument rather than just

'oh you're from one of those servers'

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How is pointing the server they are from not substantive enough? Like, you need to know the clear rates of the servers first and foremost and then make the deduction that X type of players are more prevalent than Y type of players. And judging from that you can make the conclusion that Z type of mindset will be more common than A which is also the factor that contributed the most to the formation of the opening post. Arguing with the OP about why E6-E8 normal are not hard and overtuned is completely pointless. They said in the preface that they cleared them on their first try which only serves as an argument against the raids being overtuned but they can't realize that. This is how you know that intelligent discussion will get you nowhere.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

They’re not overtuned, I’m just bad.

I don’t understand how these fights could be considered overtuned when o11 has the infamous larboard/starboard though; that one on launch was a beautiful mess.

I’d love to see more of all of these things. Normal does not equate to things you’ve seen elsewhere or only things you’re comfortable with. I was in love with Eden normal until e12 and its coffee biscuit exposition that made repeated runs insufferable. I love that fight’s novel mechanics, but the cutscenes and bouncy pads kill it.

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Agreed, made even worse by the fact that you can't skip the coffee cringe and have to endure it every single time.

Yeah...they aren't over tuned. At all. Eden 7 is kinda horrible and continues to confuse me to this day, but I also don't do it very often. But other than that one in particular, I'd argue that every single Eden floor is easy.

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Can we stop overnerfing difficulty for the lazy and selfish people that call themselves "casuals"?

I swears it feels like the average player level is decreasing with each year instead of increasing

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Unfortunately it’s already happening. Yoshi said he wants to streamline dungeons even more than they already have been. This is what happens when we have a community that enables toxic casuals.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Agreed, made even worse by the fact that you can't skip the coffee cringe and have to endure it every single time.

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And that e12 is a long fight without a checkpoint, so if you wipe late in the fight, you have to watch it all twice.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Agreed, made even worse by the fact that you can't skip the coffee cringe and have to endure it every single time.

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Excuse me? Please do not hate on my amazing children. They’re innocent and must be protected at all costs!


/s

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Yeah...they aren't over tuned. At all. Eden 7 is kinda horrible and continues to confuse me to this day, but I also don't do it very often. But other than that one in particular, I'd argue that every single Eden floor is easy.

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Perhaps I'm odd that way but I really enjoyed E7. I liked all 4 but especially that one.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Perhaps I'm odd that way but I really enjoyed E7. I liked all 4 but especially that one.

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To each their own. I just don't enjoy something that vexes me every time. It's a personal issue though. There are some things that my brain just can't compute. E7 is one of those things. lol

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

To each their own. I just don't enjoy something that vexes me every time. It's a personal issue though. There are some things that my brain just can't compute. E7 is one of those things. lol

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That’s me with ruby weapons ravenclaw. I can do light rampant and all 3 relativities in my sleep. Tell my right from my left? No ma’am it ain’t happening.

The snide comments in this thread about my beloved data center are disappointing but not surprising.

Honestly I gotta ask. How many times did you actually wipe? Did you clear each fight in a single lock out? If so, then the difficulty is just fine.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s me with ruby weapons ravenclaw. I can do light rampant and all 3 relativities in my sleep. Tell my right from my left? No ma’am it ain’t happening.

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Ruby and E7 are similar in the mental calculations you have to do to avoid the flight path. I struggled with it initially until I realised look behind your character thing. There's still mechanics in the second Nier raid I don't fully get but it's so easy to just follow the crowd with those. DR was another with some quirky but fun pre positioning mechanics.

I don't agree at all. The normal raids are just fine.

The difficulty is honestly perfect as is. To be entirely honest, it was more difficult when it was first released since item level gear was much lower, and that was WAY more fun imo. It was more difficult than the standard tank and spank, and you actually had to DO mechanics if you want to survive instead of facerolling it like every other part of the game. It's not even close to savage difficulty or EX and clearing normal difficulty felt great when it was first released due to the new mechanics we haven't seen before and having everyone play a bigger responsibility in the battle. In the end though, this is still normal difficulty, and if at least one of the healers is good, they can still carry the whole fight.