Unpopular Opinion: Flare Star should be restricted from Duels

Before Flare Star came around, the Duels were more of an actual challenge for people to get things with and people had to actually show some form of skill. Nowadays it's just "Buff the crap out of Flare Star and watch damage go BRRRRR".

I think it's still unintended for Flare Star to be used in this fashion since it was meant for raid usage(Dal/CLL/DR). There's also the fact that it's restricted to RDM in particular due to Ordained granting higher max MP so you don't run OOM the moment Flare Star is popped for 9000.

Change my mind if you think I'm wrong that Flare Star should be removed from Duel usage.

If it's trivializing the content then I don't mind restricting it, but tbh duels have bigger problems that need to be fixed or it doesn't even matter really.

Duels have enough problems as is trying to get them to even spawn, then you need to go through a CE flawlessly to then have to fight others to get in. I don't see an issue having a cheese method.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

Duels have enough problems as is trying to get them to even spawn, then you need to go through a CE flawlessly to then have to fight others to get in. I don't see an issue having a cheese method.

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Getting through a CE flawlessly isn't necessarily a problem when it comes to Zone 2 and 3; Hashbrown does because he blocks vision(plus, he loves to swap sides after his first Phantom Order and everyone just runs one way so you can't run the other due to AoEs being dropped all over the place because DPS run with their heads cut off). That's really the only one I can think of that actually causes issues for people getting to the Duel.

It's a clever trick figured by players, so why should it be punished?

I don't necessarily think it should be banned from the duels but I do think that it should disqualify you from getting the associated title.

I think it's fine.
If you want the challenge, then simply don't use it when you get the duel.

I do agree that Flare Star cheese is "meh" but folk can take advantage of it if they want.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

There's also the fact that it's restricted to RDM in particular due to Ordained granting higher max MP so you don't run OOM the moment Flare Star is popped for 9000.

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The specific reason is because of Lost Chainspell increasing the cost unless you're on Ordained (where it ALSO increases the damage from Chainspell). There are alternatives, like Lost Font of Magic, but the damage boost isn't as high.

It's theoretically doable on SMN too (and BLM but without Chainspell, as it can't use Ordained), but RDM has the easiest time overall, hence the popularity.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Getting through a CE flawlessly isn't necessarily a problem when it comes to Zone 2 and 3; Hashbrown does because he blocks vision(plus, he loves to swap sides after his first Phantom Order and everyone just runs one way so you can't run the other due to AoEs being dropped all over the place because DPS run with their heads cut off). That's really the only one I can think of that actually causes issues for people getting to the Duel.

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What I meant by "hard to get into" is that I both Bozja and Zadnor the skirmish chains that lead to CE/duels can get stuck behind all the others spawning. I remember when I was working towards the bike and Savutour's note (either from his skirmish or the duel), we had a whole group doing some cluster farming while we wait. I swear every single CE popped before FAF decided to show up. Zadnor seems to be a bit better in this regard (I see them all pop regularly) but you still need to wait a bit.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I think it's still unintended for Flare Star to be used in this fashion

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But, the only restriction on it is that only one Flare Star DoT can be active on the target at the same time. Since there's only one person in the duel, there's no problem, right?

Furthermore people have been speed-killing the duels without Flare Star prior to its introduction but especially with other DR/Zadnor skills too.
Should WAR be blocked from using deep irregular with noble ends/font of power/font of skill? Should WHM be blocked from using deep profane/seraph strike/noble ends? Because both of those also result in sub-75s duels in the first zone, and it's only gotten better with the introduction of skills like Blood Rage.

Heck, WAR with max valor stacks and bubble/protect 2 can straight up eat Dabog conal attacks and live at the cost of a damage down for a short time, which isn't a problem if you're using Blood Rage looping. Is that sufficiently broken as to be worth banning?

Trying to gate the 'prestige' of winning the duels behind an arbitrary barrier of using actions that are somehow insufficiently game-breaking seems a little misguided at best and actively against the spirit of the lost action system at worst

Dude it's casual content. Chill.

what? why bother...SE added flare star ..SE let ppl use flare star on duels...

if SE doesnt care ,i dont care ....why u care? :P

Dunno.
Considering how unfriendly the duel themselves to prog, I’d rather have them leave Flare Star alone.

I don’t fancy how the duel disappears right away when the duelist gets incapacitated, or withdraws for whatever reason. I wish they would choose 3 players at random order (or in this case, based on notoriety) to have an opportunity to accept the challenge. Should the first player fails, there’s still 2nd & 3rd player in queue; moreover this makes it easier for the observer to learn the mechanics for each encounters. Sure we have YT & other source of guides, but seeing the real stuff yourself is almost always better.

Why are you trying to gatekeep these titles?

Bozja isn't exactly hardcore content.

The thing that confuses me most is that they swiftly fixed the Dabog glitch that caused him to stop using mechanics if you re-raised on his enrage laser, yet they don't seem to care about people virtually skipping the duels entirely using the Flare Star nonsense.

Moreso because the fix only affects the people who were trying to do the duels normally. It's almost like they want people to cheese them or something...though that would be odds with their original vision of the duels being a challenge and a social activity of sorts where people learn from watching others attempt them.

If they really wanted to fix it, though, I think the best thing would be to just immediately dispel any personal buffs if they are not currently active in your Lost Action loadout to prevent the ridiculous levels of buff stacking that are possible presently.

As someone else said, there are comparable methods to Lost Flare Star that are just as "cheesy" and end the duel quickly. Frankly it makes sense that the WoL could end duels with imperials quickly too, since we're supposed to be the creme de la creme. Hell, even if it were the only cheese method, I'd love to see it enacted as much as possible so that the players crush duels and people get the mettle buff and have a faster time farming Zadnor/Honors/Everything. Winning duels is good for everyone.

As for why they'd fix an enrage bug, it was likely an exercise for them to fix, so that if it happens to a more important fight later on down the line, they have a precedent for fixing it/comparable scenario to bounce ideas off of to find the issue.

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Originally Posted by Aurida

But, the only restriction on it is that only one Flare Star DoT can be active on the target at the same time. Since there's only one person in the duel, there's no problem, right?

Furthermore people have been speed-killing the duels without Flare Star prior to its introduction but especially with other DR/Zadnor skills too.
Should WAR be blocked from using deep irregular with noble ends/font of power/font of skill? Should WHM be blocked from using deep profane/seraph strike/noble ends? Because both of those also result in sub-75s duels in the first zone, and it's only gotten better with the introduction of skills like Blood Rage.

Heck, WAR with max valor stacks and bubble/protect 2 can straight up eat Dabog conal attacks and live at the cost of a damage down for a short time, which isn't a problem if you're using Blood Rage looping. Is that sufficiently broken as to be worth banning?

Trying to gate the 'prestige' of winning the duels behind an arbitrary barrier of using actions that are somehow insufficiently game-breaking seems a little misguided at best and actively against the spirit of the lost action system at worst

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Well said ~

I mean, nobody complains about the mettle boost after they use this. I really dont see the problem. Besides if you decide not to use it thats fine, however if you choose to use the lost flare then its also fine. Trust me when i say this, my time is important if i cant get the items i need after 50+ time i do it, im going to do it the easy way.

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Originally Posted by Aurida

Trying to gate the 'prestige' of winning the duels behind an arbitrary barrier of using actions that are somehow insufficiently game-breaking seems a little misguided at best and actively against the spirit of the lost action system at worst

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100% agree. Seems fitting here as it was in the last complaint thread about this
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...66/Z7HeRxU.png

Same flavor of whining they had when you could unsync content so it's not surprising.

I was always under the impression that Flare Star was made for the express purpose of giving BLMs a way of dealing more continuous damage, more reliably. Their lack of mobility as the only casting heavy DPS makes it otherwise rather difficult, due to bullet hell boss design.

Needless to say, the fact that other magical DPS are allowed to use it as well is somewhat odd, even if BLMs have the easiest time refreshing their MP pool. I wouldn't have many complaints if they decided to make the action BLM exclusive.

To be fair, although trying to balance Bozja is a bad idea, there is some point to the argument.

For example if you look at it in reverse, if Flare Star didn't exist and someone posted a thread asking the devs for a Lost Action that could trivialize duels in 40 seconds, they'd be flamed off the forums. It'd be a wall of "lol troll thread" and "challenge is good, git gud". But when people have already been given something that makes content easier, they cling to it and are extremely reluctant to give it up.

This is why game developers make existing content easier far more often than making it more challenging. Once people have a taste of the easy mode, there's uproar if you try to take it from them.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

To be fair, although trying to balance Bozja is a bad idea, there is some point to the argument.

For example if you look at it in reverse, if Flare Star didn't exist and someone posted a thread asking the devs for a Lost Action that could trivialize duels in 40 seconds, they'd be flamed off the forums. It'd be a wall of "lol troll thread" and "challenge is good, git gud". But when people have already been given something that makes content easier, they cling to it and are extremely reluctant to give it up.

This is why game developers make existing content easier far more often than making it more challenging. Once people have a taste of the easy mode, there's uproar if you try to take it from them.

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They would probably be okay, if the devs remove the easy mode after they have done the "challenge" and don't have to get through it the intended way anymore.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

To be fair, although trying to balance Bozja is a bad idea, there is some point to the argument.

For example if you look at it in reverse, if Flare Star didn't exist and someone posted a thread asking the devs for a Lost Action that could trivialize duels in 40 seconds, they'd be flamed off the forums. It'd be a wall of "lol troll thread" and "challenge is good, git gud". But when people have already been given something that makes content easier, they cling to it and are extremely reluctant to give it up.

This is why game developers make existing content easier far more often than making it more challenging. Once people have a taste of the easy mode, there's uproar if you try to take it from them.

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This guy gets it when it comes to the NA Community. As long as I've been playing, people always want a fast track and 'easy' method of doing things, from relics to grinds to anything else that they can trivialize - but the original intent of Duels was to make the Duels in Bozja/Zadnor a challenge. A form of 'end game content' that would be difficult. I only posted this thread given that every duel I've seen in Zadnor/Bozja as of recent is Uber Buffed Flare Star and RDM. It gets old quick and makes the fights boring to watch. The only one time I actually enjoyed a run was when I was watching a SAM attempt Hypertuned Dabog in the First Zone of Zadnor.

Flare Star is by far the easiest and most accessible cheese to pull off compared to WAR and Healer Cheese, since you just set and Delete their HP by 80% after a Minute(after applying every buff under the sun), reapply, and watch the rest be deleted while doing mechanics after using an Elixir. All it takes is a RDM/SMN to set up with Ordained and watch the boss burn with just one DoT(or more since you'll be doing damage anyway).

Besides, aren't these supposed to be hard fights? They did say these fights are supposed to be 'mini-Ultimates', no? And we'd need Lost Actions to be able to do them. Mechanics are a fun part about fights in FFXIV mainly because they add a layer of complexity that is enjoyable to many different players and can look cool. Strip it all bare, and it literally becomes a dummy fight. Where's the fun in that?

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Besides, aren't these supposed to be hard fights? They did say these fights are supposed to be 'mini-Ultimates', no? And we'd need Lost Actions to be able to do them. Mechanics are a fun part about fights in FFXIV mainly because they add a layer of complexity that is enjoyable to many different players and can look cool. Strip it all bare, and it literally becomes a dummy fight. Where's the fun in that?

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I've never heard the Bozja duels being referred to as "mini-ultimates". I'm sorry but that's kinda over-exaggerating.
I mean yeah they're designed to be decently challenging, but not to the point of it being a "mini-ultimates".

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

This guy gets it when it comes to the NA Community. As long as I've been playing, people always want a fast track and 'easy' method of doing things, from relics to grinds to anything else that they can trivialize - but the original intent of Duels was to make the Duels in Bozja/Zadnor a challenge. A form of 'end game content' that would be difficult. I only posted this thread given that every duel I've seen in Zadnor/Bozja as of recent is Uber Buffed Flare Star and RDM. It gets old quick and makes the fights boring to watch. The only one time I actually enjoyed a run was when I was watching a SAM attempt Hypertuned Dabog in the First Zone of Zadnor.

Flare Star is by far the easiest and most accessible cheese to pull off compared to WAR and Healer Cheese, since you just set and Delete their HP by 80% after a Minute(after applying every buff under the sun), reapply, and watch the rest be deleted while doing mechanics after using an Elixir. All it takes is a RDM/SMN to set up with Ordained and watch the boss burn with just one DoT(or more since you'll be doing damage anyway).

Besides, aren't these supposed to be hard fights? They did say these fights are supposed to be 'mini-Ultimates', no? And we'd need Lost Actions to be able to do them. Mechanics are a fun part about fights in FFXIV mainly because they add a layer of complexity that is enjoyable to many different players and can look cool. Strip it all bare, and it literally becomes a dummy fight. Where's the fun in that?

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when did they say there mini ultimate's. Was this a live letter? Can you please link this information?

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

To be fair, although trying to balance Bozja is a bad idea, there is some point to the argument.

For example if you look at it in reverse, if Flare Star didn't exist and someone posted a thread asking the devs for a Lost Action that could trivialize duels in 40 seconds, they'd be flamed off the forums. It'd be a wall of "lol troll thread" and "challenge is good, git gud". But when people have already been given something that makes content easier, they cling to it and are extremely reluctant to give it up.

This is why game developers make existing content easier far more often than making it more challenging. Once people have a taste of the easy mode, there's uproar if you try to take it from them.

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I feel like this accurately sums up the whole pro-Flare Star cheesing mentality in a nutshell.

Heaven forbid people want content that was designed as a challenge to...y'know, actually be a challenge.

And as much as some argue that there's stuff that's "almost as broken as Flare Star", there really isn't. The two biggest sources of damage after that are Bloodrage chaining and insanely loaded WHM openers that combine the bloated Ordained + Chainspell buff with Essence of the Profane to tear off 20-30% of the boss' HP in the first minute or so, but both still require you to actually do at least one cycle of mechanics to finish the duel. An optimized Flare Star can kill all three Zadnor duels in a little over a minute with no need to actually repeat the opener.

You can trivialize the content without using it. Anyone who says you can't is... more or less just flatly incorrect, or don't really know what they're doing on their job of choice in the arena. Won't be as fast, but will still skip all the mechanics that'd be considered difficult.

Honestly, it's not that big of a problem. If you want the challenge of the fight, don't use it.

It's a solo encounter that essentially has a set up easy mode, and can be as difficult as you want to make it. The only group of people it hurts, in this current iteration, are people who just want a sense of prestige from the earned title and, to be frank, if prestige is something someone is after, then XIV is a pretty bad time investment to find that in.

But, if it's a case of wanting a difficult challenge it can still be that. Just don't cheese it. It's a problem that already has a solution.

But still, the "easy mode" need a lot of expensive preparations and planning.
It doesn't matter for a decent player to watch a guide for the flare star strat or the normal way. With both ways it can be be killed after the first try. Or it takes 5 because you get something wrong.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

there really isn't..

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The other methods are just more active. The reason people bring them up is because even if we deleted Lost Flare Star, they would become the go to methods, and they are practically just as effective. Even Lost Flare Star requires you to do mechanics to a point/have the required reflects/damage stopping Lost Actions.

Duels are just gimmick fights where you either know the mechanics and the required lost actions or you don't (and appropriate self sustain if you intend to fight through all mechanics). None of them require more knowledge than that. The only real challenge for duels is meeting the prerequisite to challenge the duel and then beating out everyone else who is after it. It's already established that the reason more people don't have duel titles is because entry requirement is stymied in a waist deep bog.

If they were going to be kept challenging, then they'd implement duels that have different mechanics every time, so that guide videos were harder to make and disseminate the key knowledge for beating the duels. Once you have the key knowledge it just comes down to what you did before, don't get hit by avoidable things and kill the boss as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

To be fair

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Even before Lost Flare Star existed there were methods to end duels in as little as 80 seconds (some even faster). It just took people a while to realize that they could pre-buff/expend lost actions mid combat for higher kill speeds. The duels were first taken down by people on WHMs/Tanks with deep essences and the proper damage stopping/debuff removing Lost Actions. These people made guides, and so the duels were all beaten "properly." If no Lost Action "cheeses" were attempted and perfected, then we'd have a ton of boring wittle'em down duels where whoever was dueling was either on a healer or one of the tanks with self sustain or any job with mild amounts of self sustain and a lost action holster filled to the brim with potions. All duel mechanics are on a 3 or so minute loop. You go through one whole loop, and that's the whole of the fight you have to contend with. They are not intended to be long and drawn out encounters.

And it's even more telling now, where we can earn the resistance honors, buffing us while in any Save the Queen content. They fully intended for us to break Bozja/Zadnor/Delubnum. If they didn't they would have made Lost Actions work like Mnemes from Eureka, wherein you couldn't really have multiple buffs going if you changed your active actions.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like this accurately sums up the whole pro-Flare Star cheesing mentality in a nutshell.

Heaven forbid people want content that was designed as a challenge to...y'know, actually be a challenge.

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If you want the challenge. . . simply don't use it? Just like people who want the challenge of minimal ilvl on content. The option is there for you.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

If you want the challenge. . . simply don't use it? Just like people who want the challenge of minimal ilvl on content. The option is there for you.

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I'm aware of that, but now that there's an "easy" way to do duels that has basically no chance of failure for people who are remotely competent, I can't help but feel like I'm practically griefing the instance by choosing to do things the hard way since I still tend to fail more often then not and deprive everyone of the mettle buff in the process.

People show up in droves at the duels now because they expect success when most duelists are just melting them with Flare Star, whereas prior to that they often wouldn't even bother,

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm aware of that, but now that there's an "easy" way to do duels that has basically no chance of failure for people who are remotely competent, I can't help but feel like I'm practically griefing the instance by choosing to do things the hard way since I still tend to fail more often then not and deprive everyone of the mettle buff in the process.

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and? Being blunt, even that 'easy' way is not foolproof.

You know how many duels I've seen fail because they mess up the setup, or forgot to bring dispel/reflect/excellence/manawall? At least 80% in the past week I've seen. Was every tank who accepted a duel that wasn't using WAR back in southern front griefing? (Since WAR deals tons more damage than the other 3 tanks in Save the Queen content due to synergies, and this was even before Blood Rage.)

Even these days I still see about half the attempts not being flare star attempts. I can pretty much guarantee very few, if anyone cares what you do with your duel attempt. Especially these days when getting into duels is easy due to Notoriety. Sign up for a duel and do as you please with it if you get selected; you built up that notoriety to get picked. Since chances are, some other guy was going to get it instead and there'd be a decent chance they'd fail too. So you might as well take the opportunity to fail and get some practice.