I've been saving and making gil for weeks now, and finally got to 4 million gil. I'm playing game slowly, enjoying every part of it, while waiting for friends to catch up, so we can enjoy MSQ together. So I'm still in ARR, but that shouldn't matter, since Housing is available since lvl 15.
So last night I finally noticed a free plot, first time since I started playing. I've spent 6 hours, going through one devaluation, spamming NUM0 and NUM4 as fast as I could for the entire duration of that time. That's how badly I want a house.
But then I almost fainted. I felt really ill, my wrist was hurting... so I gave up and went to sleep. I only slept for 4 hours, and in the morning the plot was still open!
And no, I didn't get it, because I had to feed my pets. But I am not here to "rage" about not getting a house, I came here to explain why system is broke, because even if I had got it, I would not be happy. And I am sorry for all other players that were camping with me.
So why the game forces me and 3 other players to camp mindlessly instead of getting sleep? Why the game encourages such unhealthy behaviours from the players?
Let me explain. Everything we do in any game is driven by our desire for something. Either for progress, story, glamour, role-play, doesn't matter. We want something so we work for it. If we want something badly, we work very hard for it.
So how is working hard for housing different than working hard for farmin Poetics or anything else?
Well, when I farm poetics I can just stop and resume next day. No issue. I don't have the imminent, invisible deadline that can drop at any time. But with Housing, I do. I don't know when plot will be available to be bought. I don't know if it's 10 minutes, or if it's 20 hours. Should I get sleep or not? What if I just go to bathroom to pee and plot is sold in that 5 minutes?
This is especially worse that in a month that I play I only saw A SINGLE plot open in all three major cities in ARR, so I knew that if I don't get it now, I probably won't get it for a long time.
So this way, game encourages players to sit at their PCs, forfeiting their physical and mental health, just because game offers players something valuable, but doesn't say when and gives no guarantee.
This system is fundamentaly broken and MUST change.
It is an anti-statement to what Naoki Yoshida said about "taking a break and not burning out".
So, what it should look like? Well, I don't know. I have some ideas, but I am no MMO developer. I just know that any of these ideas would be less hurtful and less infuriating for the players. Even if less fair.
So let me propose several alternatives.
Alternatives will be in first post due to character limit being 3000 characters.
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06-15-2021, 04:15 AMForienHousing invisible timer is dumb, and here's why. [+Suggestions]
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06-15-2021, 04:16 AMForien
1. First Comes, First Served
It's basic. Plot opens, first person to show up buys it. I prefer to not see land opened than to be forced to camp without knowing for how long.
2. Publicly Visible Timer
Like current system, but timer is visible. Let me know if I can get some sleep, make myself a breakfast, walk a dog, meet with friends... or if I need to stay and camp, because it will be opened in 12:23 minutes. Knowing is way better. It still allows more people to notice plot opened and come and would allow people to better manage their time and not force them into unhealthy behaviour.
3. Raffle – Unlimited Entrants, Single Entry
Have a timer, let's say 24h. Anyone can come up to Placard during this time and pay a non-refundable fee (even a full price would work!) and enter a raffle. After timer expires, one of the entrants would be picked as a winner and get the house. Nobody get's money back.
4. Raffle – Limited Entrants, Unlimited Entries
Let's have a timer (for example 24h) and a limit for entries (let's say 100). Anyone can come to Placard and buy however many entries they want (buying 100 entries for small plot would cost over 300 million gil). After all entries are sold, or after timer ends (whichever is first), game selects an entry, and whoever bought that entry gets the plot. Nobody get's money back.
5. Open Auction
Let anyone name a price on a plot, higher bidder gets it and pays what they promised in their bid. Highest bid is always visible. Winner pays, everyone else gets money back (maybe minus some minor fee).
6. Sealed Auction — Vickrey Auction
Let anyone name a price on a plot. No bids are publicly visible. Winner pays whatever second highest bid was. Winner pays, everyone else gets money back (maybe minus some minor fee).
There are probably many more alternatives, that yes, wouldn't necessary be fair, balanced or newbie friendly. But overall would be less irritating for players and would cause less stress, burnt out and health issues.
Also, on top of any change I talk about above, there is ONE MORE IMPORTANT CHANGE that should take place.
One Person — One Plot
One FC — One Plot
Why is it possible for single FC to buy 10 plots withing same Ward? They don't need them. Limit Housing to 1 per account (yes, account, not character) per server and 1 per FC. If any player or FC holds more than one, give them like a months to relinquish excess, and after that just demolish all of them if they still have more than 1.
I know my post will not be popular, especially with players and FCs holding multiple houses and even normal people that already have housing.
But as a new player I feel like game gives me a choice: "trade your mental and physical health for house, or give up on having one". It's not a choice I like to get from a game I like.
Cheers! -
06-15-2021, 04:53 AMNanaWiloh
Raffle,auction,lottery system ideas deserve only one response
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT3jKW7fpDw -
06-15-2021, 05:30 AMJojoya1. Welcome back to how housing was originally with the house flippers holding houses hostage until you cough up 10 times the game price for the plot. Flat out no, we don't need to go back to those days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
2. Good luck getting into the ward with hundreds of players showing up at the same time trying to buy it. Even better luck avoiding a system crash/DC if you manage to make it into the ward with all those players standing at that one speciific spot to click the placard.
3. Welcome to only the super rich players getting a house because only they won't care if they lose millions of gil if they don't get the plot.
4. See #3. As long as the entry fee is non-refundable, it's still only the super rich player who will risk losing the gil.
5. Again, putting all houses into the hands of the very rich because they can bid more than other players.
6. See #5.
Your suggestions don't solve the housing problem while they do a tremendous job trying to push control of the housing market back into the hands of flippers.
Don't want to camp a placard? Then don't do it. Check the plot occasionally to see if it's available yet then move on to do other things.
It is your personal choice to prioritize placard camping over playing the rest of the game. It is not required by the game.
A FC can't. It's impossible for a single FC to own multiple houses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
That would 10 different FCs sharing the same FC tag and most likely being controlled by the same player using 2 service accounts.
Whether it is "legal" for a single player to do that has been a subject of great debate since it contradicts the posted rules on the Lodestone but GMs tell those inquiring that they can't get involved in house ownership issues. But since there is no enforcement of the posted rule, more and more players have been taking advantage of the loophole to get additional houses while other players have to go without. -
06-15-2021, 06:06 AMICountFrom0This was tried. This lead to a black market where as many as possible were bought up by people on various alts, and then sold off for RL money to people who wanted those spots. They arranged for the transfer to happen at a specific time, and because it was open instantly after that, the second person got it. Making a transfer possible like this caused a black market for real money. It didn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
This lets bots spam the 10 second window and overwhelm people 100 to 1 and get all the houses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
This method failed.
Bots show up with RMT Gil. Hundreds of them buy tickets. Both bots and gil are unlimited for those who are willing to cheat. You have one ticket, the bot farmers have thousands of tickets. You have a near 0 chance of the house. This happens for every house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
This also fails.
Same as above, with RMT Gil and thousands of bots to farm it the farmers can buy all the tickets they want and not care that they lose it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
In this case you end up with no house AND you've lost your gil.
This is even more of a fail compared to the previous.
Sure. Might work. Would have all the problems of ebay with bots sniping things just before they close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
I'd actually like to see a game try this.
Odd wrinkle with the winner paying the second highest bid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
This might actually work. I'm not sure if it would work HERE, but I'd like to see a game try it.
That already IS the rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
What you are looking at is 50 FC's with the same name, owned by one person, with multiple accounts.
He's well known, and doing it because he's got a grudge against the dev's and wants to make the housing situation worse, because he failed to get the one house he wanted. -
06-15-2021, 06:13 AMICountFrom0I'd actually like to see a game do this. To flat out say, "housing is for the richest, most wealthy" and then lean into it, and let people who are willing to pay more than the person who bought it paid, can buy it out from under them. Making it a constant GIL sink where the rich person who got the house, has to keep paying into the house to keep driving the price up and up to keep others from buying it out from under them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Buy it for 10 million, put another million into it, now it costs 11 million to buy it away from you. Somebody else buys it up for 12 million, you lose the entire thing and you need to get 13 million together to buy it up from them before somebody else does.
Maybe even add a decay system so that if you arn't there for long enough the value of the house falls enough for anybody to walk up and take it.
Possibly the other person puts the 15 million down, and you have 24 hours to raise the value of the house to 16 million to prevent the purchase.
... it feels very EVE dosen't it? -
06-15-2021, 06:15 AMForien
You are all explaining why my alternatives are bad and I know they are bad. But they are better than current systems. They were/will be abused? Well, probably. Most likely, yeah. But will still be less frustrating and harmful to normal players.
You argue for botter. Sure, I will bite. Right now you can bot your way to buying a house as well. Just set up a bot to spam buttons faster than a human possibly can. Set up two or three bots. Same issue. The only result is health (including mental) loss for real players.
Current system doesn't fix anything. It still allows abuse as being seen, still promotes botters, while hurting normal players.
So yeah, from various alternatives that all allow abuse and botting, I will take one that impacts normal player less. And that's a system that does not require me or anyone else to camp for 20 hours without break to even have a chance.
And I see nothing wrong with having the richest have the houses. Houses are limited, they are meant to be luxury property. With proper enforcements of single plot for single FC/player and maybe minimum player number in FC required to even buy a land (right now it's only rank afaik), this would be fine. That's why I feel like both Auction and Raffle alternatives I provided have real chance to work out. -
06-15-2021, 06:31 AMNanaWiloh
A wait list is a better option lets the game offer open plots to the people at the top of the list. No rng, no trying to out bid wealthy players or crossing your fingers the game randomly selects you. Add your name to the list and walk away knowing when it reaches your name you will be able to buy a house challenge free.
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06-15-2021, 06:46 AMNanaWiloh:confused: Tell me you around when housing first came out. Wards were barren cause housing prices were far higher then they are now and were FC only. Prices on a small back then started at like 40 million, larges went up as high like 500 million.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
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06-15-2021, 02:00 PMICountFrom0No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
No they are not.
Any system that would hand over houses more the 99% of the time, to bots, is not a good idea.
Right now real people get houses about 33% of the time without autoclickers. Far better then the 99% that your suggestions give. -
06-15-2021, 03:48 PMAlmagnus1
The biggest problem we have with housing is that there's no good gil sinks in FFXIV and it's entirely possible to make millions of gil very quickly because the economy has too much gil in it... which basically means (like others have pointed out) that raffles and houses are going to boil down to whoever has the most gil, or whoever is using RMT to get the most gil. While I would love to see a gil sink, SE needs to figure out a better way to do that with gil or this will be a perpetual problem.
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06-15-2021, 04:27 PMThemarvin
None existing timer does serve a major purpose though, you will lose out to bots, that then will generat 1 person FCs and go into Real Estate or actual RMT, much worse with timers visible, as they then can plan the hostile take overs even better.
Raffles or lotto systems is even worse, what would stop bots and others not to put in several tickets, where as the player only put in one, then organisations could put in 20 easy winning the plot and house to their advantage and abuse of other players there of, by reselling it as a 1 person fc for 10x to 100x its value.
They Need to Enhance the system to x amount of clicks per day per plot to flush out corruption some more, they need to put in FC activity system with weekly FC activity that must be done, that would be real harsh work if only 1 or 2 players, but easy doing if am like 5 different accounts playing.
Flush out corruption = create a more fair playground. -
06-15-2021, 04:38 PMThemarvinNo it is horrible, above people explain it well, most of us have lived through the systems you show, and most of us know how it would work... your things may look good on the the paper, but the drought would end in hands of botting and RMT, and players wont be able to beat the bots, further more the PS4 and 5 players would be a huge disadvantage, as pretty much anyone who play on PC would be able to exploit it horrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
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06-15-2021, 06:40 PMJojoyaNo, they aren't better. They don't improve anyone's chances of getting a house. They're more likely to make your chances of getting a house even worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forien
No, they won't be less frustrating. The frustration comes not being able to get a house.
The current system doesn't cause harm to anyone. Players are intended to check the placard, see the plot is not yet available for purchase then go do other things before returning an hour or two or five later to check again. Many players have managed to get houses doing it the way it's intended, no placard camping necessary.
That some choose to twist the intended system and do it in a different way is their choice.
Are you really trying to convince people that sitting on your butt while clicking a keyboard or mouse or controller to interact with a placard is any more physically demanding than sitting on your butt while clicking a keyboard or mouse or controller to interact any other part of the game? Because it's not.
Any harm comes from your personal obsession with owning virtual pixels in an online game that you completely ignore everything else to feed that obsession.
That is on you. It is your choice to sit at the placard for hours. Stop trying to blame others.
If you're that concerned you're causing yourself harm, then log out of the game and uninstall so you will no longer hurt yourself. That's what a rational person does. They rid themselves of harmful behavior. -
06-15-2021, 10:06 PMItMe
I have added a link to this in the megathread.
Not that I'm trying to steer the conversation there at this point, but just for future reference. -
06-16-2021, 07:02 AMICountFrom0Bots are an unlimited resource. Even if you could only click once, the botfarm would just run through thousands of bots to click every second, or didn't you see the bot parade video, (before it was taken down because containing player names is harassment).Quote:
Originally Posted by Themarvin
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06-16-2021, 09:40 AMazura84
I agree with OP, the original system was less harmful than the current one, I didn't like the black market but it was still better than this because if you were attentive you could catch the properties that got demolished. where as now you may be attentive but then you have to fight a dozen other players for it that showed up late to the party. What's worse is 4/5 plots i've camped have had someone relocate into them without any waiting, making all that effort wasted and starting over with a new plot.
The easiest solution would be to expand the apartments to having access to indoor gardening, create small village instances with houses and just overall implement more housing. I personally like the idea of communities but there is absolutely zero benefit to having houses in giant lots like we have.
SE "20 million players!"
Also SE "5,700 houses per server, have fun you filthy animals" -
06-17-2021, 09:19 PMGarten
Dont lose your time and your mind Op. A loro of people here Will Just Say that "you decided to Camp the placard"not se fault.
I Wish that some other part of the game would been treated with this madness of sistem. Like, if you Wanna do Savage you have to click a teleport and Hope to get in, but you can still click for hours for nothing. -
06-19-2021, 01:00 AMJojoyaThere's no limit on the number of Savage instances that can be active at the same time (or at least that number is so large it's meaningless) so that's why Savage doesn't get a timer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garten
There is a limit on the number of available houses so that's why housing has the timer.
If you the timer to go away, SE needed to make certain that the number of houses available is always equal to or greater than the demand for houses. They could do that with a fully instanced system like other MMOs use.
For whatever reason, SE doesn't want to go that route so we're stuck arguing over a multitude of bad options that do nothing because they're still not going to create houses out of nothing for the players who want them. -
07-04-2021, 12:48 PMThorncraft
Plot is relinquished [placard does state for Relocation or Sale during their respective phases] > Invisible 10-hour-timer starts for Relocation (that\\'s 42% of a real day to decide). Once Relocation timer is up no more Relocation and the plot goes up for sale > next 0-4 hours that plot can not be bought (that is minimum of 58% of a real day to login and see there could potentially be a plot up, given the relocation goes unphased) > 4-12 hours the invisible timer starts (like the current one) > invisible timer goes off or after 12 hours > the plot goes up for insta-purchase. The minimum amount of turn around time would be 14 hours from relinquish to purchase with max being 26 hours. Relocation still gets priority but timers favor a buyer. Lastly, the knowledge of a rough buy window with only an 8 hour spam window is priceless. What do you think?