Lore Question in regards to the in-universe Dragoon Powers of our Warrior of Light.

I realize that I am pretty late to ask this question, but I have only recently picked up this game again together with my sister, which has been a great experience due to always having somebody to talk to whenever the story leaves us stunned and wide-eyed ^^
In one of our discussions we were talking about Estinien and how he has kept most of his abilities even after the destruction of both of Nidhogg's eyes and looking even more badass than ever judging by that Endwalker Cinematic Trailer, and I felt that could have been easily explained by him becoming a host for, and even briefly transforming into, Nidhogg himself, thus keeping lingering traces of draconic power that enables him to function as a Dragoon even without having to draw powers from the Eye.
The same could be said for most of the lesser Ishgardian Dragoons, seeing as they all contain heavily diluted remnants of Ratatoskr's lifeblood, hence why they're capable of the iconic gravity-defying feats that we know and love them for.

...but what about our Warrior of Light?
I have to admit that it has been a while since I played through the Dragoon Job Quest, but as far as I remember, we too communed with Nidhogg's Eye for a while, which is what enabled us, a non-Ishgardian, to perform the crazy leaps and jumps to begin with. Later on Hraesvelgr is kind enough to serve as our new source of power by lending us his Eye, but what happens after that?

• Do we remain bonded to Hraesvelgr even after we return his eye, just as Estinien was able to draw on Nidhogg's Eye's power even while it was kept in Ishgard and he was fighting Dragons outside its walls?

• Has Midgardsormr been our source of draconic powers all along?

• Is our Soul Crystal enough of a Power Source to replace the Eye and overcome the lack of draconic blood?

I am sorry if I am asking some very obvious questions, and I am sure that they are probably answered to some extent in the Eorzea Encyclopedias, but unfortunately I don't have the means to buy them right now, and cursory searches on Google only provided me with some vague answers to that question.
Not that it is particularly important of course, nor does it impact my enjoyment of the game, but I was simply wondering of there were any Loremasters out there that know the answer to my question, or whether or not this is actually common knowledge and I've just completely missed it while playing the game T.T

IIRC that wasn't the point of the eye. Jumps and such are aetherically enhanced in the same way all the other physicals skills are, using the "caster's" own aether. The eye makes the user stronger, which is why they get the fancy Azure Dragoon title, but it's not the main source of dragoon power. All DRGs can jump. The eye just let Estinien do it better that everyone else. A power he retains, having absorbed the remaining energy from the eyes at the end of 4.0. (The WoL replicates this simply by having an absurdly huge amount of aether compared to most people.)

Fun fact: The wings and fins on DRG gear are actually flight stabilizers for more powerful and accurate jumps.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Fun fact: The wings and fins on DRG gear are actually flight stabilizers for more powerful and accurate jumps.

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And all this time I just thought I looked cool!

1. I don't think we ever bonded with him he just gives us his eye to us real quick.
2. Probably, its implied through the lore books that before dragons and man were at war dragoons and dragons worked together dragons lending the humans power for things like blood of the dragon. So he's the one we made a pact with
3. Dragon blood has nothing to do with being a dragoon. Dragon blood only affects Ishgardians if they drink it.

That... actually makes a lot of sense. I don't know how I got under the impression that some aspect of the dragon was necessary for Dragoon abilities. Perhaps I just took the whole Ratatoskr eat-out a little bit to literally?
But seeing as we've seen other Jobs accomplish crazy physical feats with their Aether, it makes sense that Dragoons would be no exception.

Thank you for the quick replies! You've actually cleared up a huge misunderstanding I've had for a year now! ^o^

If you take notice the two times you have Estinian in your party (well, once under your control, once in your party) he's actually FAR more powerful a dragoon compared to the hero of light. While the Hero of light has more options, multiple classes, and Estinian has only the dragoon soul, it's as if he took everything we spread out and focused it into one singular task. I think we'd have trouble in a 1 on 1 fight, until things were desperate and we called in reinforcements or hydalin.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

If you take notice the two times you have Estinian in your party (well, once under your control, once in your party) he's actually FAR more powerful a dragoon compared to the hero of light. While the Hero of light has more options, multiple classes, and Estinian has only the dragoon soul, it's as if he took everything we spread out and focused it into one singular task. I think we'd have trouble in a 1 on 1 fight, until things were desperate and we called in reinforcements or hydalin.

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Pre-Nidhogg he loses pretty soundly and when he tries to accept the Eye's power Haldrath's Spirit stops the deal with the devil.

Estinien is no slouch combat wise but, you can scale him relative to someone the WoL beat soundly that being Zenos. Who he admitted he would struggle to beat. (Only experience he had against Zenos was when Elidibus was piloting not the man himself)

Aside from the Warrior of Light he's definitely the strongest Scion though. Thancred can't wield aether anymore, G'raha isn't bonded to the crystal towers near-limitless reserves, and I doubt any spell Y'shtola can cast has the sheer destructive potency of Estinien's dives.

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Originally Posted by HiraishinNoJutsu

Pre-Nidhogg he loses pretty soundly and when he tries to accept the Eye's power Haldrath's Spirit stops the deal with the devil.

Estinien is no slouch combat wise but, you can scale him relative to someone the WoL beat soundly that being Zenos. Who he admitted he would struggle to beat. (Only experience he had against Zenos was when Elidibus was piloting not the man himself)

Aside from the Warrior of Light he's definitely the strongest Scion though. Thancred can't wield aether anymore, G'raha isn't bonded to the crystal towers near-limitless reserves, and I doubt any spell Y'shtola can cast has the sheer destructive potency of Estinien's dives.

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Huh? Estinien and Gaius fought Zenos right after he'd reclaimed his body.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Huh? Estinien and Gaius fought Zenos right after he'd reclaimed his body.

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That was my bad on phrasing "Only SOLO Experience he had fighting Zenos*"

That's lowkey why I hope we get a rematch between the two in Endwalker. Zenos clearly has more crazy ascian magicks up his sleeve and Estinien didn't use his Nidhogg trance which we know he had at the time cause he fights Arch-Ultima right after. Both parties were sandbagging pretty hard and a real fight between the two would round out how the Azure Dragoon and the Imperial Prince kept missing each other by the slightest of margins and a full on duel never took place.

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Originally Posted by HiraishinNoJutsu

Pre-Nidhogg he loses pretty soundly and when he tries to accept the Eye's power Haldrath's Spirit stops the deal with the devil.

Estinien is no slouch combat wise but, you can scale him relative to someone the WoL beat soundly that being Zenos. Who he admitted he would struggle to beat. (Only experience he had against Zenos was when Elidibus was piloting not the man himself)

Aside from the Warrior of Light he's definitely the strongest Scion though. Thancred can't wield aether anymore, G'raha isn't bonded to the crystal towers near-limitless reserves, and I doubt any spell Y'shtola can cast has the sheer destructive potency of Estinien's dives.

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Remember at that time Zenos was able to stop you with a single slash. Down for the count. You got more powerful, and so did Estinian. He can solo a weapon, and does. We won't be able to do that until at least level 95.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Remember at that time Zenos was able to stop you with a single slash. Down for the count. You got more powerful, and so did Estinian. He can solo a weapon, and does. We won't be able to do that until at least level 95.

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Cutscene badassery vs actual gameplay is not an accurate comparison of strength. Nor are power up stories, for that matter. The WoL had to lose to Zenos the first time otherwise there'd be no buildup to the rematch. Even if the WoL was stronger they still would have lost for "reasons" simply because the script called for it.

We have no real way of knowing who would win in an actual, fair fight because the answer is always "whoever the writers pick."

Nither of those were cutscene badassery.

Both are things that happened mid fight.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Remember at that time Zenos was able to stop you with a single slash. Down for the count. You got more powerful, and so did Estinian. He can solo a weapon, and does. We won't be able to do that until at least level 95.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but the WoL canonically has soloed weapons.

-Cinder Drift was you being tasked with crossing the Ghimlyt Dark and halting Ruby Weapon before it was going to wreak havoc on Eorzea
-The Cloud Deck was Gaius and Cid formulating a plan to Capture Diamond Weapon rather than destroy it.

In both instances WoL is in story fighting these solo but we have 8 people with us because of gameplay reasons. A case of Ludo narrative dissonance. The feat of destroying the trial weapons i'm willing to consider more impressive because they aren't just proto types but considered successors to Ultima Weapon.

The main argument I have against considering Estinien superior to Zenos/WoL is this:

Estinien when confronting Zenos says

"I've seen him in action. His body atleast. You will not best him alone"

-Zenos challenges both Estinien and Gaius and is soundly on top. He Blocks a dive with his new barrier and tanks a Dragonsong Dive head-on with out a scratch.

-Zenos cites that the pleasures of one's own flesh is amazing and Estinien comments "Whatever he is, Forename was barely a match for him. if we stay much longer-"

-The imperials make it to the throne room and see Varis dead and this is where the fight cuts short

Zenos lives for the hunt, lives for the joy of doing battle with strong opponents but describes the duo of "The Azure Dragoon" and "The Black Wolf" as middling. It doesn't come close to the majesty that was the battle atop the Royal Menagerie. At this point in the story Zenos has not encountered the WoL since StormBlood but even this form of Estinien pales in comparison to us during the Shinryu fight.

Therefore if the WoL at end of 4.0 is still the hunt Zenos measures everything else up to and Estinein+Gaius are average at best and since the writers are clearly building up the rivalry between us and Zenos we can make the argument

WoL = Zenos and both are greater than Estinien

The main difference between Estinien and the WoL is that Estinien's use of his full power tires him out. We don't know how long he can sustain the effort. The WoL on the other hand has no such clearly defined upper limit as far as the narrative goes.

Both are subjected to cutscene incompetence, though.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

The main difference between Estinien and the WoL is that Estinien's use of his full power tires him out. We don't know how long he can sustain the effort. The WoL on the other hand has no such clearly defined upper limit as far as the narrative goes.

Both are subjected to cutscene incompetence, though.

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Yeah, we see this fatigue during the 5.55 trial, while the feat he performs during it is pretty impressive, he then immediately takes a hit and is down for the count, while the WoL often is asked to do things back to back, like how we gave away large amounts of aether to Aliese and then had to be the last (wo)man standing during the tempering trial.
It's also worth noting that when our Allies like Estinien go all out, it's often a one off show of might, they do it once and rarely are they asked to do it again right after, whereas our WoL on the regular goes from leading front line charges, to taking down weapons, to liberating castrums and soloing primals and the only rest we get in-between is "well you've got time to walk rather than run to your next objective, yay...!"

Edit: Also curse cutscene incompetence, I know other characters suffer from it, but the WoL... I swear the lacus litore end cutscene... I have been mad about a lot of things... but I don't think I will never not be mad about that one... never have I screamed "SHOOT HER!" more times internally than that moment and I was a DRK, I didn't even have a gun, but I can still throw darkness, hell I would have accepted throwing my damn sword at that point... ahem... I know we can't do much because we can be any job and taking future jobs into account that's a lot of animations. But with all the Azem stuff just give me some generic WoL/Azem powers in cutscenes and free me from my lemon status, sorry, rant over.

Can I steal “lemon status?” I’ve harbored a bitter, bitter hatred for suddenly-otome-game-protagonist-level-of-useless cutscene!WoL since ARR.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Yeah, we see this fatigue during the 5.55 trial, while the feat he performs during it is pretty impressive, he then immediately takes a hit and is down for the count, while the WoL often is asked to do things back to back, like how we gave away large amounts of aether to Aliese and then had to be the last (wo)man standing during the tempering trial.
It's also worth noting that when our Allies like Estinien go all out, it's often a one off show of might, they do it once and rarely are they asked to do it again right after, whereas our WoL on the regular goes from leading front line charges, to taking down weapons, to liberating castrums and soloing primals and the only rest we get in-between is "well you've got time to walk rather than run to your next objective, yay...!"

Edit: Also curse cutscene incompetence, I know other characters suffer from it, but the WoL... I swear the lacus litore end cutscene... I have been mad about a lot of things... but I don't think I will never not be mad about that one... never have I screamed "SHOOT HER!" more times internally than that moment and I was a DRK, I didn't even have a gun, but I can still throw darkness, hell I would have accepted throwing my damn sword at that point... ahem... I know we can't do much because we can be any job and taking future jobs into account that's a lot of animations. But with all the Azem stuff just give me some generic WoL/Azem powers in cutscenes and free me from my lemon status, sorry, rant over.

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Which is why none of you should deal with hostages situations ever. We as the players could guess what she did but no one there on the ground knew that she was completely by herself and what she was trying to do. Considering she revealed herself to us and we didn't go find her. They were correctly being cautious.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Which is why none of you should deal with hostages situations ever. We as the players could guess what she did but no one there on the ground knew that she was completely by herself and what she was trying to do. Considering she revealed herself to us and we didn't go find her. They were correctly being cautious.

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Except our goal was to save Mikoto and after Misija "cleverly" kicked her only hostage nearly 10 feet away from herself when she was only holding save the queen, we should have moved, even on a class without a gap closer or any kind of mobility, the WoL has demonstrated speed and agility of a level high enough to advance towards Mikoto, grab her, send her back towards the resistance and be ready to deal with Misija should she attempt to rush you, draw an actual ranged weapon, or attempt to summon her "hidden" reinforcements. Worse still was later on in the scene, at a more volatile moment someone else does in fact just shoot her and surprise, it works fine, shame we didn't just do anything earlier and save the blades. There's a stark difference between caution and inaction and the WoL falls so far into inaction it's often aggravating, even though I understand the out of character reasoning.
But this is hardly the point of this topic.