BLU's circular requirements are yet another example of poor job design

BLU's raise spell requires you to clear all of Masked Carnivale up to floor 30.
You can't easily clear Masked Carnivale without spells learned from trials.
To get these spells, you need to use party finder, and once you get in, almost certainly nobody will have Raise (since you needed to complete masked carnivale to get it!)

A few people will die, and these people won't get the spell, and they can't be raised. The party will disband afterwards unless its comprised entirely of saintly people, which from my experience has never happened. The people that died will sit there looking at their corpses while everyone learns the spell, and will have a horrible experience.

There's no reason for the absolutely ridiculous requirement for the BLU raise spell, considering CNJ gets it at lv. 12. Square wants us to form entire parties of BLU to do content, and yet gated a required spell to do this content behind finishing the content in the first place, which is aggressively bad design.

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Originally Posted by Pinen

BLU's raise spell requires you to clear all of Masked Carnivale up to floor 30.
You can't easily clear Masked Carnivale without spells learned from trials.
To get these spells, you need to use party finder, and once you get in, almost certainly nobody will have Raise (since you needed to complete masked carnivale to get it!)

A few people will die, and these people won't get the spell, and they can't be raised. The party will disband afterwards unless its comprised entirely of saintly people, which from my experience has never happened. The people that died will sit there looking at their corpses while everyone learns the spell, and will have a horrible experience.

There's no reason for the absolutely ridiculous requirement for the BLU raise spell, considering CNJ gets it at lv. 12. Square wants us to form entire parties of BLU to do content, and yet gated a required spell to do this content behind finishing the content in the first place, which is aggressively bad design.

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Blue Mages having Raise is not a Required Spell.
Sure, they could future-proof things abit better for new people coming into it later, in the future but otherwise learning spells is not difficult. You dont even NEED party finder. You can do it with Friends or even solo Que. Also some spells can be learned from enemies out on the open world field.
The Masked Carnival was Created to be Challenging Single Player Content, the Raise spell being gated behind that is...unfortunate, but its a Milestone and achievement to show that you have beaten this challenging content.

There are a ton of assumptions built in to this. For my BLU adventures, Angel's Whisper was the last spell I learned; it in no way hindered my progress. Don't want to be dependent on someone else having Raise? Don't die. Oh also Angel's Whisper has like a 5 minute cooldown on it so it's not like you're going to be zombie-rushing things anyway.

By that logic, why not make Raise for all healers something you get at lv. 80? Or maybe they learn the spell only once they've leveled all healers to 80?

All the players stuck in the 99% of duties with non-raising healers can just Not Die™

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Originally Posted by Pinen

By that logic, why not make Raise for all healers something you get at lv. 80? Or maybe they learn the spell only once they've leveled all healers to 80?

All the players stuck in the 99% of duties with non-raising healers can just Not Die™

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Ok, now you're just being silly.
Bluemage is a non-traditional job in FFXIV. It functions very differently then the other Traditional Jobs. Just because Bluemage learns its spells differently, doesn't mean suddenly every other job needs to get their spells the same way.
Also, this is why we have Aetherical Mimicry. Someone can take on having a Healer Role to make the healing spells that have more potent and I think even get an additional benefit. Everyone has the same idea...DONT-DIE
Otherwise we will have to start over, or will have to run it again.

I still haven't learned Angel Whisper because the Carnival bores me, but I've collected every other spell without a problem, including those requiring group content. It's annoying, but it's not really that huge a deal.

Maybe just do the mechanics.

Extreme trials are even easier on blue mage. Most of the spells can even be learned from the story mode version of the fight. If you're dying, the problem is not that blue mage doesn't have a raise.

To be honest, there's no real excuse why you should be dying in trials unless it is the Extreme ones, even then, you're better off doing those 2 unsync.

So as above, just don't die, and execute the mechanics.

Re: BLU Raise

Personally I think it should lose the cooldown if you're healer aspected.

Because a CD on a healer Rez is bad design.

Just git gud

You don't need a full party of BLU to learn a spell.

Back in my day, the party just split up between BLU and normal jobs to get the duty cleared, and then we swapped.

/boomer rant

Okay BLUmer.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

You don't need a full party of BLU to learn a spell.

Back in my day, the party just split up between BLU and normal jobs to get the duty cleared, and then we swapped.

/boomer rant

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Honestly I still recommend this approach for Glass Dance in particular. Shiva EX is a bitch and a half sync'd if everyone doesn't know how to handle it. I did it with split parties back then and it took a while, but we all got it with minimal fuss.

Collecting spells is one of the core aspects of BLU... If you don't like it, the job might not just be for you...

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Collecting spells is one of the core aspects of BLU... If you don't like it, the job might not just be for you...

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Oh I was having a blast collecting spells, it's just the ones that require 8 people are particularly frustrating due to a strange choice of making Raise difficult to get. Perhaps it works great in Japan, but here on English servers people generally don't want to run it twice and don't want to go healer and carry a bunch of underpowered blue mages out of the kindness of their heart.

There's a lot of mental gymnastics going on to justify Square's strange decisions, they could and should just make Raise easier to get so we can do 8-man BLU trials like it was supposedly intended. Angel Whisper is not some end-game overpowered spell, especially considering its brutal 5-minute cooldown. They could also just do away with the arbitrary restriction on KO'ed players learning spells, but that's heresy to suggest such a thing.

Others have mentioned in this thread workarounds: to either a) run the content twice with a half normal job makeup or b) just run it again for the people that died. The BLUs that get the spells on the first run are really not likely to stick around, and in the vast majority of my experiences rarely do. Maybe for the 4 man content, but not 8. On reflection, perhaps my issues lie more with the community rather than upon the job design.

Are you able to ask your FC or static to run things with you?

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Originally Posted by Pinen

All the players stuck in the 99% of duties with non-raising healers can just Not Die™

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You can get primal spells at 100% if you're synced on Hard mode.
Don't tell me you're dying everytime you try those. Either you don't even try to do the combat or you barely even went to farm these.

The way BLU has been implemented and design is not the best, surely, but you're exagerrating on the spell gathering.

Besides, you don't even need a full BLU party.
It's not rare to see BLU group halved with some normal job and BLU jobs and do the content twice to be sure it happens well.

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Originally Posted by Pinen

Oh I was having a blast collecting spells, it's just the ones that require 8 people are particularly frustrating due to a strange choice of making Raise difficult to get. Perhaps it works great in Japan, but here on English servers people generally don't want to run it twice and don't want to go healer and carry a bunch of underpowered blue mages out of the kindness of their heart.

There's a lot of mental gymnastics going on to justify Square's strange decisions, they could and should just make Raise easier to get so we can do 8-man BLU trials like it was supposedly intended. Angel Whisper is not some end-game overpowered spell, especially considering its brutal 5-minute cooldown. They could also just do away with the arbitrary restriction on KO'ed players learning spells, but that's heresy to suggest such a thing.

Others have mentioned in this thread workarounds: to either a) run the content twice with a half normal job makeup or b) just run it again for the people that died. The BLUs that get the spells on the first run are really not likely to stick around, and in the vast majority of my experiences rarely do. Maybe for the 4 man content, but not 8. On reflection, perhaps my issues lie more with the community rather than upon the job design.

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There are no mental gymnastics going on LOL

It's a hard mode trial, you aren't really expected to die in a hard mode trial in which you outgear said trial quite significantly. If all the trials required extreme modes, then you'd have a case. If people are dying in trials on hard mode, they're dying out of their own negligence. Pay attention to the trial and you don't die.

Not even trying to justify the implementation at this point, just trying to figure out why on earth you'd need raise for a hard mode trial.

If you want to argue that the cooldown should be shorter; I'd agree. If you want to argue that KO'd players should still learn the spell; I'd agree. But moaning about what requirements you need to go through in order to obtain Angel Whisper and then doing it under the guise of people not being bothered to stare at their screen and then move a little to dodge an AoE....

Where, exactly, did SE say "Blue Mage parties should contain nothing but Blue Mages"? Back when it was new, I joined FC parties and ran low-level Blue Mages through low-level instances for spells by tanking for them, as well as providing DPS for higher-level instances where both Tanks and Healers were also involved. Moved on to another instance once all the Blue Mages in the party 'got the spell' they wanted.

Resurrections were the least of their worries.

?? just do the mechanics, my guy. you shouldn't need raise to clear seven year old content.

B-b-but... it's too hard...! Dumb it down please!

hint: *sigh* How about a 'no'? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Honestly I still recommend this approach for Glass Dance in particular. Shiva EX is a bitch and a half sync'd if everyone doesn't know how to handle it. I did it with split parties back then and it took a while, but we all got it with minimal fuss.

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I did that bag of awesome with a Full Party of BLUs. That was fun.
No joke, we wiped alot, but it was fun to re-learn and help others learn. And once we got it, everybody got the spell.
Gave me a warm feeling of community <3

Just don't die lol.

With the introduction of the new overworld monsters and Basic Instinct, BLU can acquire 102/104 spells solo. The only two you need help with are from the same encounter, Alphascape 3.0 normal.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Re: BLU Raise

Personally I think it should lose the cooldown if you're healer aspected.

Because a CD on a healer Rez is bad design.

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It usually would be but for blue it’s not such a big deal. You can’t do any of the content which requires mass res, eureka bozja etc. And you’re mostly running dungeons with other blues who also can have the raise etc.

I don’t think it would hurt, but at the same point I don’t think it’s required either.

Unrelated to OP's point but "just do the mechanics, just don't die" doesn't work for BLU because of the RNG nature of mechanics and crit auto-attacks (hello Bahamuth with that nasty TB+AA combo on a "tank" that's really just a DPS job with some damage reduction)

If there is any plan to do the synced no echo achievements, raise is a necessity.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Blue Mages having Raise is not a Required Spell.
Sure, they could future-proof things abit better for new people coming into it later, in the future but otherwise learning spells is not difficult. You dont even NEED party finder. You can do it with Friends or even solo Que. Also some spells can be learned from enemies out on the open world field.
The Masked Carnival was Created to be Challenging Single Player Content, the Raise spell being gated behind that is...unfortunate, but its a Milestone and achievement to show that you have beaten this challenging content.

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Raise is not required... as dps, but it's an important part of any healer's kit, basic I'd even say.

They should just put these cookie-cutter spells like Raise, Aetherial Mimicry, Pom Cure, Chelonian Gate (the tankbuster mitigator) on open world content, or gated behind totems with quest advancement. Those are essential for the roles, like the basic of the basics, they should be more readily available.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Unrelated to OP's point but "just do the mechanics, just don't die" doesn't work for BLU because of the RNG nature of mechanics and crit auto-attacks (hello Bahamuth with that nasty TB+AA combo on a "tank" that's really just a DPS job with some damage reduction)

If there is any plan to do the synced no echo achievements, raise is a necessity.

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Also adding that the tanking game for Blue Mages in Tanking Mimicry is really unnerving for all the wrong reasons:
- They don't benefit from melding Tenacity, which I know it's not really a desirable stat for normal tanks, but I'm sure it would help a ton with the innate squishyness and spikyness;
- ALL of the mitigator spells have a nearly 2s cast time, this makes extremely difficult to properly react to the tankbusters unless you can pinpont precisely when they'll be coming. At least you have Swiftcast, but still it's a 60s cooldown there;

Kudos to people that managed to tank for the Morbol mount, because if this design - as in making a Tank without proper tanking tools THE actual challenge - is intentional then, sadly, isn't for me.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Unrelated to OP's point but "just do the mechanics, just don't die" doesn't work for BLU because of the RNG nature of mechanics and crit auto-attacks (hello Bahamuth with that nasty TB+AA combo on a "tank" that's really just a DPS job with some damage reduction)

If there is any plan to do the synced no echo achievements, raise is a necessity.

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If this were savage/extreme, and some certain raid encounters then you'd have a perfectly valid point, but to be quite frank if you're doing the achievements then there is an expectancy that you'll have all spells in the first place otherwise you're just gimping the group.

So yes, just don't get swatted out by a hard-mode encounter with outright neglect to do mechanics. Across all 4 characters I've done BLU on, I've not once met someone dying to the hard mode encounter, except when their brain decides to malfunction and they think doing final sting is a good idea! If people struggle on anything- then sure, Ravana may catch some people out with Surpanakha and with general Tanking on the fight but everything else you near enough outgear by like 40-50iLv

I don't think I've ever seen anyone die in a BLU only trial for spells tbh. If anything I vote a rep from SE should personally come over and take spells away from you if that happens.

"Don't die git gud" is terrible advice, because it's perfectly normal to die to slip ups in quite a lot of content. It leads to players getting far more frustrated over deaths than they should be because they assume either they suck or they're not meant to die because the forums said so and therefore it needs nerfs. Dying is part of the learning experience and brain derps happens to literally everyone in all content so lets not ridicule people for it.

That said, this used to be an issue in previous patches, but Enix have done a lot to make it easier with base instinct, 100% chance synched and huge buffs in the chance to learn skills unsync. Your options are generally:

-Solo it with Base Instinct. Quite a fun challenge.
-Reach 70 and unsynch it. Might take a few tries but makes the majority of abilities very easy.
-Unsynch it with a group. Same as above and works for pretty much everything.
-Synch it with half BLU and half healers. Easily done for everyone in 2 runs.

So pick whichever works best for you depending on the content and there should be no problems.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

because it's perfectly normal to die to slip ups in quite a lot of content.

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And from that you learn how not to die and how to git gud. None of you ever played a souls game before?

Personally I don't think it's that bad, but I can see why people may not like it.
For gaining skills in a full BLU party (8 people instances) I don't think having a res is a requirement. It helps, that's for sure but you can do them without just fine thanks to almost all of them being available in the normal version instead of Ex. And if you struggle there is always the unsync option.

I actually enjoy the concept of getting a higher chance at rewards (or guaranteed for BLU spells) if you complete something the "normal" way instead of going in unsync for an easier completion.

To me the main issue I have with BLU is that there is no incentive to help others get spells, outside of being a nice person putting in the time to help. It took me almost a week in PF to finally get enough people for a few spells, which can get kinda frustrating.
Obviously nothing to crazy should be rewarded, but I think it could help those in need for assistance and helpers would get alteast a little something for their time/effort. :)

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Raise is not required... as dps, but it's an important part of any healer's kit, basic I'd even say.

They should just put these cookie-cutter spells like Raise, Aetherial Mimicry, Pom Cure, Chelonian Gate (the tankbuster mitigator) on open world content, or gated behind totems with quest advancement. Those are essential for the roles, like the basic of the basics, they should be more readily available.

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None of these are essential for the roles, because the roles can easily be played without them in the content where they're obtained.

• Raise: Most of the spells are from HM trials or 4-man dungeons, both of which are very easy to do, even with a BLU that's only using Mighty Guard. Which is an essential skill for tanking, and obtained using a totem after learning just 10 spells.
• Aetherial Mimicry: Obtainable in a lvl 60 dungeon, which is easy enough to do with a BLU using Mighty Guard, and using White Wind (also obtained using a totem after learning just 10 spells) to keep the party alive.
• Pom Cure: While very useful to have in combination with Mimicry, every BLU still has White Wind to heal with. It's also very easy to obtain, because it only requires killing the CNJ moogle in Thornmarch.
• Chelonian Gate: While it's good for damage mitigation, you'll generally want to use Diamondback for tankbusters like Akh Morn.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Also adding that the tanking game for Blue Mages in Tanking Mimicry is really unnerving for all the wrong reasons:
- ALL of the mitigator spells have a nearly 2s cast time, this makes extremely difficult to properly react to the tankbusters unless you can pinpont precisely when they'll be coming. At least you have Swiftcast, but still it's a 60s cooldown there;

Kudos to people that managed to tank for the Morbol mount, because if this design - as in making a Tank without proper tanking tools THE actual challenge - is intentional then, sadly, isn't for me.

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Being able to time your mitigation ability is kind of the point of BLU tanking. Just because it's unnerving to you doesn't mean that it's actually a flaw of BLU tanking.
It's also not nearly as "extremely difficult" as you make it sound, as bosses in XIV generally follow a strict rotation of mechanics. You simply plan ahead, because you know when that tankbuster is coming.

@OP: The pre-60 cap BLU must've been hell for you, given the fact that the job didn't even have a raise spell available back then.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

as in making a Tank without proper tanking tools THE actual challenge - is intentional then, sadly, isn't for me.

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Blue Mage has more mitigation on demand than any other tank in the game.

Mighty Guard is 40% mitigation you get to have 100% of the time. Dragon Force is 40% mitigation in Tank Mimicry or 20% without. Chelonian Gate is 20%. Diamondback is 90%.

The only limitation on BLU mitigating attacks is its MP, and the "dedicated" cooldowns have recast timers of two or so minutes. Diamondback is effectively invulnerability, because in order to kill a level 70 BLU, the default damage on an attack would have to be set to deal close to 500,000 damage to kill you through it.

Enmity is no concern to a BLU. They may spam White Wind at the beginning of a fight with Mighty Guard up, and it will generate more enmity than a level 80 tank in tank stance.

Beyond that, if a BLU tank doesn't have the MP for Diamondback or its tank CDs are on cooldown, it may use the spell Assail in order to force damage onto the OT, basically a reverse form of Cover. They shouldn't need to, but they can.

BLU doesn't even need Tank Mimicry in order to tank. All Tank mimicry does is enhance a couple of cooldowns, and increased defenses x4. While very practical for a group situation, Healer Mimicry actually allows more power to BLU tanking because of the ability to heal yourself with a lot less MP, as well as apply your own shield with Gobskin whenever you want. Every % mitigator actually gains power when your defense is lower as well, because the more damage that is being dealt to you, the more damage is mitigated. THat's why % mitigation is a top shelf thing. As long as you can keep MP and enmity stable, BLU can tank anything in the game with no trouble at all.