6.0 Relics and Beyond

I remember in Stormblood the majority of people, not all, disliked Eureka and begged SE to not tie the Relic of the next expansion to the Eureka like content, or at the very least give us a way to do it outside the Eureka like content.

Now comes Shadowbringers and the relic is STILL tied to the Eureka like content Bozja but also has ways to get it outside Bozja. Problem is one is 100% the other is not.

I,personally, would like for Endwalker's relic to not be tied to the next Eureka/Bozja like content at all, should we get that type of content again. I think the Relic weapon should be a unique story unto it's self like the Zodiac and Anima quests, as well as be job specific in some steps; a solo fight or flashback fight or what have you.

This is just my opinion of course. I still dislike Bozja even tho I do think it's better than Eureka in places. I still don't like Lost Actions. And I hope in the future the relic weapon isn't tied to the Exploration Content in any way except maybe being one of many options of completing it.

Whatever they do I hope they design the relic path to be casual targeted next time (target audience that isn't "lets do old school mmo mechanics" which I'd argue isn't the majority casual audience, but does have an audience who does appreciate this concept). Bozja isn't terribly hard, particularly the parts that are for relic given the perfect storm (if you have the number of people and the jobs / actions, but that's "given the perfect storm"), but the systems behind bozja are not casual targeted in so much that like forming a group and that group having a very real chance to fail (look at DF, the most common content for DF is content that you really only need like 1/2 to 1/4 your group even 'sort of' paying attention to complete), tweaks to spell and farming gameplay loops, etc.



I think they could keep it within a Eureka like content if they wanted but they should ensure whichever parts relics touch are targeted towards the casual audience (first and foremost, then build up for the other audiences from there). If Relic has to be extracted from Eureka because they can't do that, then fine, if they can then fine. People who wanted that old school era vibe may not appreciate shifts though (if say next Eureka was further made more casual friendly). So there will be some who win and some who lose. Whatever the case I think relic should be for "casual's end game" (meaning bite size, frequent and relatively consistently easily obtain-able progression steps, which may take a while- like some of the previous relics). Where there is then savage and ultimate for the determined / hardcore. Although like I said in other threads I wonder if simply just making CLL scale (so it's consistently progress-able with a diverse number of players and situations), making some tweaks to mettle loss (as to not turn a failed run into "I only took steps back today, today was a waste of my time" and logging off with little time a player had to give with disappointment), and creating a spell encouragement system could be the 'enough' for a larger casual audience (spell encouragement systems could be like DND spell rest system, or Dark Souls bonfires, or like FFIX or FFVII 'learning' systems).

more than anything, I hope the relic actually starts before 6.1 like it did back in ARR and keeps pace with the savage albeit reasonably time gated so savage weapons aren't wasted for those that raid

bozja has been better than eureka overall, both relic wise and not, but the devs really need to start thinking through how things work once the public gets ahold of things. The playerbase will always go for path of least resistance if the options presented are equally tedious

also, they need to just stop with mechanics like mettle/exp penalty and places that require a group like pazuzu. Relics are an individual player's thing and they are done even when they are old content. Feeling like a player is going backwards is an instant turn off- thats why these "old school" mechanics aren't around anymore, they dont add anything to the fun, they just remove it and/or cause frustration.

I'll be blunt and say this is the worst iteration of the relic so far.

Not because Bozja is necessarily bad. In fact, I rather enjoy it, flawed though it may be. Likewise, Castrum and Delubrum are the most fun I've had in a large scale raid since BA, which I also loved. Admittedly, requiring 48 players for Savage is a bit much and puts an unfortunate shelf level on the content, however that's another topic entirely. So... what's the issue?

The whole purpose behind offering an alterative method for relic progression was to address complaints from players who simply dislike large instanced zones and the assorted mechanics that accompany them. No matter how well designed, they just aren't interested in that type of content. Hence why people were asking for alternative method similar to ARR/HW. Instead, the devs tried to appeal to everyone... except not appealing to them? It's baffling to me they landed on the current system wherein players are both forced into Bozja but also forced out of it. Who does this benefit? Those of us who enjoy Bozja are forced to grind old 24 mans, FATES and PotD unless we want to fight RNG while people who hate Bozja are forced to grind up to level 10 and partake in two large scale raids they otherwise have no interest in. One aspect I liked about the HW memory farm is it kept people who didn't care to grind Bozka out of it, thus they weren't just AFKing—something that became a massive problem with Eureka. They had their progression and we had ours. And yet... you were again incentivized to FATE farm because it was far more efficient.

It honestly feels like they were worried not enough people would queue for Ivalice or PotD. So they made them mandatory/faster, and in doing so... punished people who actually liked the new content. Once again, it's mystifying how they signed off on some of these design decisions.

I'd actually respect the decision more if they simply acknowledged Eureka-like content is their preferred method and how they intend to develop all future relic progression—even if I'd ultimately disagree with that decision. At least they're showing committed instead of flip flopping and effectively frustrating everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'll be blunt and say this is the worst iteration of the relic so far.

Not because Bozja is necessarily bad. In fact, I rather enjoy it, flawed though it may be. Likewise, Castrum and Delubrum are the most fun I've had in a large scale raid since BA, which I also loved. Admittedly, requiring 48 players for Savage is a bit much and puts an unfortunate shelf level on the content, however that's another topic entirely. So... what's the issue?

The whole purpose behind offering an alterative method for relic progression was to address complaints from players who simply dislike large instanced zones and the assorted mechanics that accompany them. No matter how well designed, they just aren't interested in that type of content. Hence why people were asking for alternative method similar to ARR/HW. Instead, the devs tried to appeal to everyone... except not appealing to them? It's baffling to me they landed on the current system wherein players are both forced into Bozja but also forced out of it. Who does this benefit? Those of us who enjoy Bozja are forced to grind old 24 mans, FATES and PotD unless we want to fight RNG while people who hate Bozja are forced to grind up to level 10 and partake in two large scale raids they otherwise have no interest in. One aspect I liked about the HW memory farm is it kept people who didn't care to grind Bozka out of it, thus they weren't just AFKing—something that became a massive problem with Eureka. They had their progression and we had ours. And yet... you were again incentivized to FATE farm because it was far more efficient.

It honestly feels like they were worried not enough people would queue for Ivalice or PotD. So they made them mandatory/faster, and in doing so... punished people who actually liked the new content. Once again, it's mystifying how they signed off on some of these design decisions.

I'd actually respect the decision more if they simply acknowledged Eureka-like content is their preferred method and how they intend to develop all future relic progression—even if I'd ultimately disagree with that decision. At least they're showing committed instead of flip flopping and effectively frustrating everyone.

---

What annoys me more is the flip flop on what is the better way to grind it out the first patch it was better to farm the HW fates and do the dungeon 6 times because the drop rate of Skirmishes and CE's wasn't great. Now in the first part (till the most recent hotfix) you are all but required to do Crystal Tower because the drop rate off of CE's was insanely low. Like why not make it equal both ways? So people who enjoy bozja do bozja and those that prefer the grinding old content method grind that out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'll be blunt and say this is the worst iteration of the relic so far.

---

ARR relic says "hi". You needed crafters, killing 100s of open world enemies, running dozens of dungeons (several of which were current content), farming the hell out of trials/EX/Savage for the light step, needing a ton of tomestones, doing around 75 treasure maps, FATE grinding, etc. Nowadays it's a bit of a grind, but doable. Back then it was heavily time gated and took MONTHS.

Note that I do agree the current step is a bit of a tedious one, but it still pales in comparison to the original ARR relics.

If the FFXIV developers REALLY want to help out new players, do you want to know the best way to do it?

Tie Relic item acquisition to the roulette system. They had the right idea by putting one of them on the 567 roulette.

Put one on Leveling
Put one on Normal Raids
Put one on Alliance Raids etc.

This helps ensure the people who are needing the content actually get help instead of having 20 BLUs slaughtering a 24 man ST.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

ARR relic says "hi". You needed crafters, killing 100s of open world enemies, running dozens of dungeons (several of which were current content), farming the hell out of trials/EX/Savage for the light step, needing a ton of tomestones, doing around 75 treasure maps, FATE grinding, etc. Nowadays it's a bit of a grind, but doable. Back then it was heavily time gated and took MONTHS.

---

Most of this was easily fixable though.
Atmas were fixed with a simple increase on the acquisition rate
Books could have been made a hell of a lot more bearable if they were focused instead of spread out so much. A book of Mobs, a book of dungeons, a book of trials etc etc. All of varying difficulty.
Light was easily fixed by simply rewarding more.

Something to be said is that I feel like relics by design are meant to be for people who have excessive amounts of time and want a timesink that gets them something. They are basically a NEET farm. FFXIV is such that anyone just playing like an hour a day will basically be about 90% as powerful as those who have the best of the best gear available; raiding, relics, etc., either lets you get it sooner, or just a little extra.

That said, even with all that in mind, I feel a lot about the relic this time was unacceptable.

1. Started too late. We all knew it would be a bad idea if it came this late, bided our time to see if we were wrong, and we weren't. Should be prioritized x.1 and given more breathing room.
2. I think having multiple ways to build it is good, but poorly balanced, and poorly implemented.
3. No one talks about it but it's always needlessly confusing. People often don't know what quest is next, for example, or whatever these edgy confusing item names you need mean. It would be cool if we had something simple like "Lv 1", "Lv 2", "Lv 3", etc. added to the name of relic quests, materials, weapons, etc., to quickly read what is for what step. Or if you are just going to use item level, tie it to the quest names and materials. Can still keep the flavourful names and lore but just tag that to the end.

relics are worthless when the new expac comes out, I never bother. It'll just get replaced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

ARR relic says "hi". You needed crafters, killing 100s of open world enemies, running dozens of dungeons (several of which were current content), farming the hell out of trials/EX/Savage for the light step, needing a ton of tomestones, doing around 75 treasure maps, FATE grinding, etc. Nowadays it's a bit of a grind, but doable. Back then it was heavily time gated and took MONTHS.

Note that I do agree the current step is a bit of a tedious one, but it still pales in comparison to the original ARR relics.

---

The issue isn't the grind. The issue is that except for a step here and there in ARR and HW, you could accomplish those doing your normal things. You weren't sequestered away into a separate zone where you may or may not enjoy the content but be unable to accomplish any of the other normal things you might want to. Bozja doubles down on this by also being a zone with an even more limited shelf life than Eureka had.

And to the OP, "technically" they gave people what they asked for. They just either truly or deliberately misunderstood. It's a bit facetious to say "You wanted to go outside, here, we let you get the updates outside" because that completely misses the point that so many of the complaints were about having to interact with the sequestered zone at all when it offered very little to entice them there.

What they need to do is promise you can get the relic through pretty much only doing roulettes.
AND THEN KEEP THAT PROMISE.

I would not be so incredibly furious if they had not broken their promise with the 5.45 relics.
I'd have just looked at things, said "Nope, there is no Shadowbringers Relic" and moved on.
Instead, I get *overjoyed* that we don't have to do the new Eureka, then *crushed* that I spent probably 120 hours or so farming up seventeen i500 relics, all for naught.

SE - please. A rational company would go back to making the ARR/HW relics that were so enjoyable, and gave us a reason to actually play the good content, help new players, etc.
But it would only take a *decent* company to not outright betray us with this switcheroo nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

ARR relic says "hi". You needed crafters, killing 100s of open world enemies, running dozens of dungeons (several of which were current content), farming the hell out of trials/EX/Savage for the light step, needing a ton of tomestones, doing around 75 treasure maps, FATE grinding, etc. Nowadays it's a bit of a grind, but doable. Back then it was heavily time gated and took MONTHS.

Note that I do agree the current step is a bit of a tedious one, but it still pales in comparison to the original ARR relics.

---

As others have said, it isn't the grind that makes this worse but the execution. ARR and HW had bad steps due to overestimating how ridiculous of a slog that would be. Not to mention, you could cut the dev team some slack with ARR has they were still taping together a rushed MMO and had minimal experience under their belt.

With Shadowbringers, they deliberately set out to make an alternate path except it not only didn't address the complaints people had, it forced players who enjoyed the new content out of it to do something they likely hated. Put another way, they took player feedback and missed the mark so badly they just pissed everyone off instead of those who disliked Eureka. That's why I called it the worst iteration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burningskull

I remember in Stormblood the majority of people, not all, disliked Eureka and begged SE to not tie the Relic of the next expansion to the Eureka like content, or at the very least give us a way to do it outside the Eureka like content.

Now comes Shadowbringers and the relic is STILL tied to the Eureka like content Bozja but also has ways to get it outside Bozja. Problem is one is 100% the other is not.

I,personally, would like for Endwalker's relic to not be tied to the next Eureka/Bozja like content at all, should we get that type of content again. I think the Relic weapon should be a unique story unto it's self like the Zodiac and Anima quests, as well as be job specific in some steps; a solo fight or flashback fight or what have you.

This is just my opinion of course. I still dislike Bozja even tho I do think it's better than Eureka in places. I still don't like Lost Actions. And I hope in the future the relic weapon isn't tied to the Exploration Content in any way except maybe being one of many options of completing it.

---

Perhaps if you don’t want to do the current content they could give you a relic for crafting in limsa? :)

I like relics to be tied to there own content
it makes them special instead of just some passive thing on the side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duskane

I like relics to be tied to there own content
it makes them special instead of just some passive thing on the side.

---

The ARR and HW weapons were plenty special getting the updates through things like your normal daily roulettes and some instances of grind X or Y here and there. They were still an accomplishment you were actively working toward. They just let you do the other things you were already doing to get that progress.