Craftsmanship 854
Control 468
CP 6
no sockets
Is anyone else feeling as underwhelmed as I am? It's a gain of 24 Craftsmanship and 13 Control over the Skysung tool.
Compared to my pentamelded Aesthete tools, I gain Craftmanship that accomplishes nothing because it's not enough for me to drop a synthesis step from level 80 4 star Master recipes or Grade 4 Expert (I can skip a Malleable on a Basic Synthesis so it becomes another of the several useless Malleable procs that gets ignored).
I lose Control. That hurts, especially on the Expert recipes.
I can remeld pieces of my gear to lose the unnecessary Craftsmanship and get back the lost Control plus a bit more but this really isn't feeling like a BiS item when it overvalues the stat that is useless except at specific breakpoints while neglecting the stat that almost always has value in end game crafting (especially Expert).
Final Skybuilders' Tool
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02-03-2021, 04:08 AMJojoyaFinal Skybuilders' Tool
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02-03-2021, 05:47 PMNabril
I am not complaining. This saves me so much money because I don't have to pentameld it to have a powerful primary tool. Min-maxing isn't important to me. I really never got into the expert crafting and I have so far been able to do everything with my pentamelded 460 set. (I did pentameld a 490 belt, but I still have all 430 jewelry and a 500 secondary). I'm not going to complain about 13 control especially since this thing looks amazing!
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02-03-2021, 08:09 PMQooEr
it is pretty underwhelming. i was hoping the last step would either have its stats capped, or have some meld spots, or if theyd at least let us allocate the stats like in the anima relics.
But nope. you end up having 17 less control if you use this instead of aesthetes tool. i was hoping the relic would make grade 4 pots or expert crafts easier but it doesnt seem like it. but hey, at least its nice glamour i guess -
02-04-2021, 03:58 AMLiam_Harper
Sadly they were pretty much doomed to glamour status for a while now. There's no way a single tool would give enough stats to allow a significant QoL difference on 4 star crafts (such as 1-100% from NQ) and with the last ranked season done and over, no new endgame DoH content on the way, far easier and sufficient catch-ups available and Exarchic gear almost worthless on the mb, the tools serve no other purpose than glam.
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02-04-2021, 07:19 AMJojoya
I just want to express why they end up feeling disappointing so SE can take that into consideration if they do something similar next expansion. I definitely wasn't expecting any game changer but they still should have felt like a small improvement to the best currently available to us and they don't.
Giving us sockets so we could bolster the stats we wanted to improve instead of making that choice for us would have made a positive difference. -
02-04-2021, 02:38 PMTW-Luna
Made a comment in the other thread about the glows, but I feel like it could sorta fit in here too.
Was it a crushing amount of work to craft these? No, not really, not at least for me personally with my melded gear. These are supposed to be the relic tools, though! The end all, be all, right? So why is it, after the time and materials poured into them do we get a tool that theory crafters are already calling a side grade at best and cosmetic tool at worst; but also a cosmetic affect that is inconsistent between tools? As I showed with the screenshots posted in the other thread, you've got a tool that will sometimes light up the crafting apparatus as well as the tool, as in the case of ALC, and sometimes not, as in the case of CUL and CRP. (Those are the only 3 I've unlocked so far)
Just shoddy, that's the best way I can describe these 'Perfected' Skysteel Tools.. just shoddy. -
02-08-2021, 07:57 PMNabril
That's a lot of complaining over this. "It's the worst most crappiest system ever because my heavily over melded tool has just the tiniest bit more control!" So what? Penta-melding is supposed to be higher by its very nature. There is nothing you can't do with this completed Skybuilder's tool.
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02-09-2021, 05:59 AMShadygroveRelics, by their nature, are supposed to be BiS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabril
2 materia slots with no overmelding and these would be.
I am not complaining because I usually don't pentameld my tools. -
02-09-2021, 08:49 AMDrWho2010
they did say in the LL that there would be even more crafter updates to come in 5.5. you may need the skybuilder tool for those perhaps?
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02-09-2021, 09:19 AMJojoyaI doubt they'd require the Skybuilder Tools for the new Expert recipes any more than relic weapons are mandatory for any content. They might offer some advantage depending on how much Progress requirements increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWho2010
But unless the tools they said would be a reward are amazing (possibly secondary tools some were hoping to get with the Skybuilder tools), I suspect people are going to ignore yet another Expert grind. -
02-09-2021, 03:51 PMTaleraRistain
They don't really seem worth it, even for a more casual player. It's locked behind Expert recipes, which from what I've seen just come down to fishing for certain procs. I tried some of the "right" ways I read about and they were so boring. I don't use macros so I've been playing around with it to do it my own way. I've managed to find a comfortable medium that gets me the minimum for 1 item, lets me take advantage of the procs as they come up if I want to experiment with pushing, but doesn't have me sitting around bored fishing for step after step after step.
RNG is frustrating but there's a difference between frustrating and challenge. SE has a habit of equating the two and using RNG for their challenge. I really wish they'd steal an idea from EQII. In EQII you have skills that move forward progress and quality like here. There are procs while crafting but they require you to hit a specific skill (that you may have just used) and there's a short time limit to hit it. If you miss it, there's a negative effect either in your craft or even to you if it's severe enough. Hell, I've died crafting there before. You have to pay attention. You have to react quickly. And you have to react quickly with the right skill. I applaud SE for the new conditions. Those are fun. But fishing for them is not fun and doesn't really seem to be much of a test of skill except someone's ability to resist boredom.
I'll do them because I like shinies, but ugh. -
02-10-2021, 12:33 AMCaimie_TsukinoSorry, I just wanna say, I disagree with pretty much everything you said here.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
Firstly, whether the tools are worth it or not really comes down to what you're trying to achieve. If you just want glamor, they're totally worth it. If you were sitting on lightly-melded i490 or the Skysung i500, then the i510 Skybuilders are definitely a boost to your stats. The only time when it's not worth it, is when you're already sitting on a heavy-control-pentamelded i490 while seeking more control.
Secondly, they're not "LOCKED" behind anything. Anyone can do Expert Recipes.
Thirdly, although some fishing for procs is required, Expert Recipes is NOT just about fishing for certain procs. It is actually more about utilizing whatever conditions that come at you. I dunno what "right" ways you've been reading about but here's what I came up with: http://ffxivrealm.com/guides/caimie-...ers-tools.201/
I had only Aesthete tools with +6 CP melds, and I only used mostly HQ Matcha and sometimes HQ Blood Bouillabaisse without using any Chilli Crab. I used only NQ Cunning Syrup as well. And yet, I was able to get enough tool parts from merely crafting 21 collectables for 4 classes. "Skills" are CLEARLY involved, even though it's not the kind of "real-time skill" that you were talking about.
RNG is frustrating, but there's a difference between crafting by pure RNG vs crafting with brain. You actually need to be VERY quick with your head to make complex decisions based on your current CP, durab, condition and quality acquired/needed. This IS a kind of intellectual skill.
If you had studied the Expert Recipes that we did back in Phase 2 of the Ishgardian Restoration (in one of the earlier threads here https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...Recipes/page16), you'd see that a good number of us were able to achieve at least 80% of our crafts getting max quality. I started off with only about 36% of my crafts getting max quality... Then improved to 40-ish%, later ~70% before finally reaching above 80%. Are we just all super lucky? No. We just "got better"... i.e. becoming more "skilled". (Although, in Phase 3 and Phase 4, I have to admit more RNG was involved, and I was only able to achieve about 45% of my crafts max quality. But that's because of the changes in our stats, changes in the crafts' difficulties and even changes in the conditions available that affected the weighting of RNG importance.)
Again, Expert Recipes is NOT just about fishing for conditions. Some fishing is needed, but you're ONLY fishing for conditions, you'll be very heavily relying on RNG, and you are likely to do poorly on these recipes. -
02-10-2021, 03:24 AMLiam_Harper
Question for anyone who has one, but do they still go in the Glamour Dresser even at the final stage?
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02-10-2021, 05:41 AMJojoyaYes, they will. No Armoire as usual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
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02-13-2021, 09:02 PMKaurhzLate..Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
But for me nope, because the craftsmanship gain outweighs the control loss.. So I can go from 26 > 20 steps without reducing quality, even factoring in the control loss too. They are bad if you look at them in a vacuum, but it's not that simple.
Comes down to the simple question of.. Does the craftsmanship gain allow you to reach an important breakpoint, and is it a breakpoint that you will regularly make use of (2735, 2754, and 2797), 20-step, Experts, and 19-step respectively. Can slate the control loss as much as people like, but if that control isn't the difference between 1 HQ mat and 2 HQ mats, then it's an irrelevant loss. Similarly for the craftsmanship.. If you don't reach one of those breakpoints then the gain is irrelevant -
02-14-2021, 07:58 AMJojoyaI would love to see a sample situation where you were able to reduce a level 80 Master recipe from 26 to 20 steps solely by increasing Craftsmanship 48 without the original rotation being inefficient in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurhz
HQ materials are obviously better to use, reducing control and/or number of touch steps needed. SE clearly expects us to be using them even if some players want to stick to only NQ materials.
But then we have Expert without any HQ materials. If the gain in Craftsmanship won't be enough to replace a synthesis step with a touch step, better to have the control to offset touch RNG and increase rating as high as possible.
There's a reason why Aesthete gear ends up BIS over the Handsaint gear despite being 10 ilvls lower. SE should have followed suit with the Skybuilder tools. -
02-14-2021, 11:13 PMKaurhzHere goes..Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
26-Step rotation in question
https://i.imgur.com/7khObMV.png
20-step rotation
which I deviated to when taking Skybuilders' tool over Aesthete's tool- Has marginal quality loss by comparison, but it is irrelevant since you still require the same amount of HQ mats until you deviate onto Specialist rotation. Needless to say, 19-step is for 2797 where you swap Focused for Careful. I probably should've clarified "Without reducing it by any meaningful amount, but semantic
https://i.imgur.com/tnVZQHz.png
It isn't that neither rotation is inefficient, but that simply put Preparatory Touch is absurdly efficient, especially when buffed by Innovation. The only issue we've had since, is you already had to have a fairly specialized build for it on Aesthete's. Arguably you can achieve the same, albeit with a higher step count and some quality deficiency, but if you ask me a simple tool swap is beneficial enough, especially taking into account you still require the same amount of materials in HQ, unless you of course use specialist, but that's an entirely different case
2754 allows you to take a Delicate Synthesis on Malleable, which gives you both Inner Quiet and the necessary progress to be within 1 Basic Synthesis of finishing the craft, but as is with Expert this heavily depends on which route or method you use with crafting them. There's no real right or wrong, but it's a good breakpoint all the same.
Handsaint and Skybuilders' are 2 entirely different things considering the latter is not only +20 iLv above Aesthete's, but factoring in it also has +6CP. So I'm not entirely sure why this was highlighted. -
02-15-2021, 09:22 AMJojoyaYou didn't mention you were also increasing available CP. Your second rotation would have failed if you were limited to the amount you had available in the first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurhz
So what is your result when you limit yourself to 639 CP?
As for bringing up Handsaint versus Aesthete, it goes show the power of being able to customize through melding. Skybuilder tools don't give us that power.
A truly BiS tool shouldn't force us to remeld other gear to achieve a noticeable difference. You would have had to remeld other items to get that additional CP you needed to make your second rotation work.
A truly BIS tool should make us feel good when we get it. Do you feel good every time you have to remeld? -
02-15-2021, 10:09 AMCaimie_TsukinoWell... You seem to be a little bit harsh on this... I do remember some BiS battle gear not always being the relic weapon, so some ppl chose to use something else instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Anyway, I'm curious... If the Skybuilders' tool is not as good as the pentamelded, control-heavy Aesthete, shouldn't you be happy about it that your Aesthete is not obsolete yet? So you pentameld effort is still worth another patch... If I were in that situation, I'd be quite happy about that, and just glamor the Skybuilders' on top of the Aesthete.
Another question, how does remelding other gear help you to achieve better stats if you were already pentamelding the Aesthete mainhand? I'd assume your other gear would also be pentamelded and control-heavy, right? So you probably can't gain more control from other gear by remelding them, in order to make up the loss control from switching to Skybuilders'.
Btw, Happy CNY and happy Valentines'!!! :) -
02-15-2021, 11:49 AMKaurhzWell technically as far as the CP goes, that is the difference between using tea and using Syrup which is wholly irrelevant if you're gaining the materials in a self-sufficient manner. So the base CP remains the same, the only difference being you go from Tea to Syrup, which factoring in a 15-minute buff for 8 steps, still turns out more efficient. The only case for argument would be if I went from no additional consumable tea/syrup to requiring a tea/syrup, so contrary to what you believe no remelding was even necessary for this endeavor, simply swapped out my tools, discarded my Aesthete's, and didn't look bad. Ironically though I could swap out a Craftsmanship V CP on the Hands and stick back a CP+1 since I'm still on 2746, and that would be sufficient enough to swap down from Syrup to Tea, so yeah. Increasing the available CP is moot when both crafts require a combination of Food/Tea(Syrup) and nigh on capped CP anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
BiS is very situational, so like anything, it is subject to change as newer equipment, recipes, and rotations are found. I am inclined to agree with you that a true tool should not require the need to remeld in order to achieve results, however, in this situation no remelding even occurred in the first place so it is indeed a moot point. Not to mention there's a difference between significant melding required and minor, but whether or not remelding is worth it, is entirely deterministic on the frequency that you craft. If I'm pumping out hundreds or thousands of crafts between now and 6.0, then it is a more than a justifiable point of view. I feel this was entirely semantic and trying to make a point.
TL;DR: No remelding was even necessary for this endeavor, the only differentiation was stooping up from Tea > Syrup. You could even clarify this through Teamcraft yourself if you wanted to.
26 Step requires the use of both Chili Crab + Either HQ Tea, or NQ Syrup, for a bonus of 13CP
20-Step requires the use of both Chili Crab + HQ Cunning Syrup
Both sets still retain the same base CP of 554. Given how crafts have been the entirety of this expansion you'll find it a tough case to justify entirely cap CP, especially when and where going with 42~ Craftsmanship can have more of an objective benefit over that +3CP.
In fact, using my actual build currently, 2746/2820/554, I can drop the tea/syrup entirely from the 26-step rotation whilst still maintaining the same requisite HQ materials.
If you don't feel that this is for you then that is fine really if your preference aligns with something else. But given the scope of this discussion, it's factually incorrect to imply that Skybuilders' tool has no real benefit over Pentamelded Aesthete's. -
02-15-2021, 12:32 PMJojoyaThe conversation was about the effects of increasing Craftsmanship, not increasing Craftsmanship and CP. We know how powerful small amounts of CP can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
I'd like to see the result when CP isn't increased.
From what I recall, SE doesn't promote combat relics as BiS (perhaps they did before I started paying attention to relic grinds?). SE also provides a way for players to customize their relic weapons, either through sockets or through stat rerolls on the weapons.
SE did promote the Skybuilder tools as BiS, unlike what they do with the relic weapons. SE did not provide us with a way to customize the tools, unlike what they do with the relic weapons.
We're supposed to feel good about the effort we put in over months when the moment we finally get the completed tool and equip it we discover ourselves worse off? We're supposed to be happy that to see any benefit from those months of effort we've got to go through the hassle of remelding gear, which is arguably the least enjoyable aspect of end game crafting?
SE could have put sockets on the tools instead of using a static set of stats and everyone could have come out ahead as soon as they added those few materia they wanted on the tools. Everyone could have felt good about being in a better position than they had been. -
02-22-2021, 10:14 PMLiam_HarperWhile this is true that benefit can exist, I can do your 20 step rotation with my Aesthete set by simply changing a control materia in my belt to craftmanship. If we look at the tools purely from the perspective of how useful they are, there's absolutely no way I'd ever consider grinding 8 full relics over swapping one cheap materia. They're purely for glam for me. Which is why I asked if they go in the dresser, because that's all I'll use them for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurhz
I actually haven't bothered to obtain any of the last stages yet. There's nothing to craft really with ranking over and 4 star gear worth next to nothing, so there isn't even a point in rushing to get a shiny tool. I agree with Jojoya on this, it wouldn't have hurt to put a few materia sockets or a little bonus on these to make them truly BiS and that tiny bit more satisfying to obtain. I see no reason why they couldn't. -
02-23-2021, 09:45 AMKaurhzI mean sure if you remeld, the point really was that if you have them, then they have use provided you meet the requisite thresholds that you otherwise don't meet with Aesthete's. At this point, it's just several ways of achieving the same goal. I achievement hunt, I enjoy glamour and I personally prefer them over our Blessed Tools so I happen to conveniently have them. Would I do it strictly for the benefit of step/CP saving alone? Probably not, but again, it's glamour and achievement points anyway, just happened to be 2 birds with 1 stone in this regard. The original question was whether or not they belong, or are destined to go to the dresser, not whether you should grind them. That's a different matter entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
I do agree, they could have added a materia socket or two so that they have more benefit especially as it correlates to how annoying of a grind it is getting them all. I'm pretty sure the only argument I really made was that they're only worse if you apply vacuum logic to the situation. Outside of Ishgard Restoration, control only matters to the degree of going from 1 HQ material to 2, or so on, and/or whether you can save a step(s) or not, and with recipes as 'inflated' prog/qual wise, they aren't easy to hit; a 5K quality disparity on these recipes requires around 230 Control stat to eliminate. With Craftsmanship only mattering if it's the difference between Synthesis actions, particularly from a CP pov. It just happened in this very particular situation the gain to Craftsmanship outweighs the loss to control, hence my disagreement with looking at it through a vacuum. Besides, if the argument then is made that 4* is worth next to nothing, then these tools were doomed from inception irrespective of what they do, which then makes the whole topic/question moot in the first place. Though I would disagree on this anyway, simply given how well accessories are still selling, in combination with their low production cost. -
02-28-2021, 07:13 AMLiam_HarperTo be fair I was curious from a practical sense if they can go into the dresser (for example, the 515 relic cannot despite the fact earlier steps can), rather than whether they're only worth it as dresser glamour. Personally I wouldn't find it worth grinding one to use, but if someone else finds them worthwhile to use I wouldn't disagree with that. It depends on the player really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurhz