Monk Rework just brought us back to 2.0 MNK but with no GL.

Title. Tried new version of Monk....its literally 2.0 monk without stacks...
Tornado Kick is Steel Peak but learned later. (higher potency sure)
Elixir Field is Howling Fist but learned later. (higher potency sure)
Riddle of Fire is Blood for Blood but is learned later and doesn't require cross class...
the only new damage skills we got SINCE 2.0 in any meaningful way is just Forbidden chakra (3.0) Brotherhood (4.0) and the aoe getting combo moves (5.0).
Six Sided Star is just a last poke before disengage so its meh, and all the other skills are just ways to hit pos or skip movesets.

While I agree Greased lightning wasn't hard to keep up and for whatever reason the dev/balance team just wanted to keep adding ways to keep it up instead of actually adding anything really new... I don't think GL should have been remade into a trait the job feels very bland now as if I was a SAM but forgot all the fun skills lol.

TDLR: I want GL back, and something ACTUALLY NEW to add to the job that isn't just a QOL thing...

While I agree with... basically everything you've said, that MNK in it's current state is a disastrously boring job - but I heavily disagree with bringing GL back. Not because it was a bad mechanic per se (it wasn't), but because SE themselves cannot be trusted with developing upon it anymore. Every single attempt at "expanding" upon it has led to MNK being gutted by a loss of focus in every expansion. It's better to leave GL in the dust for something hopefully new rather than risking another 2 years of nothing but more useless GL upkeep tools. (Blitz, please)

I just hope that the current state in which Monk is, is just a temporary one since it looks to me like a new piece of paper that's about to be written on, with no actual flavour or anything interesting.

Monk should be getting in my opinion, something like a berserk state (no square enix, not another inner release or aetherflow), that makes Monk, if certain circumstances and requirements have been made, like, not having been hit at all for 30 seconds or so (or having been the main focus of a enemy for that long) faster in both movement and attack speed, granted increased evasion aganist melee attacks (like a 25-35% chance or so during its duration)as well as oGCD being reduced, every following 30 seconds until being hit.

But what more likely is going to happen, is that they keep him that way and remove any remaining traces of mechanics until it just becomes a auto attack machine that needs sometimes some buttons to be pressed, i guess having original Jobs is way overrated in 2020+1

It's a band aid. I'm 99% sure that Monk is going to get an overhaul for 6.0. Sorta like how in Stormblood the eventually unlocked role actions so you could have all of them equipped if you wanted instead of like 4. That was never meant to be a permanent solution, just a temporary one.

All Monk needed to "fix" GL in 5.3 was to actually have a decent GL recovery skill and for Tornado Kick to do literally anything other than being a stacks dump. Monk had PB and Anatman for GL recovery but they were both bad at it for various reasons. PB on top of being more valuable as a DPS cooldown due to Leaden Bootshine was slow to build stacks and had three times the CD of equivalent skills like Blood of the Dragon or Enochian. Anatman, while on a lower cooldown, was so slow to build and had so many restrictions on its use cases that it was worthless for pretty much everything they designed it for in most cases.

Now that TK does something else, yes they could bring back GL as long as there was an ability added to refresh it on a fast cooldown. But that wouldn't fix the problem with Monk still feeling like a 2.0 job for the same reason removing it didn't fix the vast majority of the problems with the job.

What Monk actually needs is for Chakra as a system get completely rebuilt to remove the RNG and to add more depth to it. It also needs an actual Central Mechanic for Chakra to support in the way that Ninki and Kenki support Ninjutsu and Iaijutsu respectively. Monk can't just stay as it is in 6.0 or the devs are going to be dealing with another Monk meltdown.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

It's a band aid. I'm 99% sure that Monk is going to get an overhaul for 6.0. Sorta like how in Stormblood the eventually unlocked role actions so you could have all of them equipped if you wanted instead of like 4. That was never meant to be a permanent solution, just a temporary one.

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While I'd like to agree I've got to point out that historically we've been 99% sure that Monk is going to get an overhaul in the next expansion twice now. After people had major issues with the job in Stormblood people were sure 4.0 was going to be when Monk got fixes and it didn't. In fact, Stormblood was where the devs massively missed the mark on what people wanted to the point where they apologized for it on stream. Then after that apology and months of saying they were taking feedback over Monk going into Shadowbringers what they released in 5.0 was them repeating basically every aspect that people hated in Stormblood all over again and hoping that GL4 would get people to stop nagging Yoshi-P about it in interviews.

The recent patch is evidence that they actually gave Monk more than 5 minutes of thought during their lunchbreak, which is what it seems like they did for the last five years. However their track record on Monk is so bad that I'm not willing to give them any benefit of the doubt until I actually see concrete results.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

It's a band aid. I'm 99% sure that Monk is going to get an overhaul for 6.0. Sorta like how in Stormblood the eventually unlocked role actions so you could have all of them equipped if you wanted instead of like 4. That was never meant to be a permanent solution, just a temporary one.

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I can't even agree with it being a "band aid." A band aid implies some form of a fix. This isn't a fix, it's an admission of defeat. They finally gave up, after years of leaving the mechanic in place as is and giving us more and more means to try and preserve it and quickly build, while ignoring oftentimes unified feedback from people who actually play the job consistently, they finally just said "Eh, whatever." And by giving up, they basically announced that the entirety of 5.x has been the third expansion straight where they've bungled the job. To echo SpeckledBurd, it's hard to feel hopeful, much less excited, if this is supposed to be a prelude to anything at all.

So much of the new additions to Monk ShB were for the preservation of a self-buff that they have struggled to integrate with the rest of the kit for so long. The removal of GL, and subsequent half-baked changes to the new buttons really highlights the level of neglect that has been on display here.

Since vanilla, the developers have shown basically no real understanding of how they wanted GL to interact with every other aspect of the job. Every thing they built onto the job after ARR failed to acknowledge problems with GL that have always been present, either exacerbating existing issues or making new ones to stack on the old. This same attitude has been reflected on the underused, double-rng layered Chakra system. It is reflected yet again with the continued existence of elemental fists, even after TWO button culls that removed "useless" abilities (and in one case I can recall off the top of my head, later replaced with a new animation and name.)

Monk used to be one of the most selfish DPS in the game, offering next to nothing for any party beyond it's ability to do damage. But in SB and ShB, SE decided that it needed some form of raid utility to shore up it's historically low playerbase. It didn't work. What we're left with now is a job whose defining traits are "it fast", "more positionals than u *punches faster more aesthetically*", "why cant i hold all these chakras ; ;", and "look guys our raid buff finally justifies more than just a very, very specific comp please dont kick me i have been in party finder for hours"

Think you should expect the actual rework in 6.0, when they'll add actual new mechanics to the job instead of just simplifying what they had.

While I don't miss GL at all, I think they need to come up with something interesting to put in its place come 6.0.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

It's a band aid..

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How can you call it a band aid, when monk was fine before?

Transitions were a bad thing for GL, but you normally was able to start your opener again to get your GL stacks back pretty fast. Everything else was fine and some stuff like RoE or fist of winds even better. I´m pretty sure that the new monk doesn´t attract more players. It was always in a special spot due to the positionals.
For me it has become worse. It´s button spam. E.g. E11s is a pretty good fight for melees. But there are times where you´ve to press like 6 buttons at once if you don´t want to lose damage or off gcd timers. It´s horrible and the reason lies in more off gcd´s and RoE spam.

It´s playable yes, but it brought nothing positive to the class next to the brotherhood buff and that you don´t have to care about transitions. But the 2nd one could´ve been negated if SE would´ve freezed the stacks with anatman right before such boss phases. SSS is a joke too. Still the same one time use, but hey you got a movement speed buff, which is nothing in comparison to FoW and in the most cases pretty useless since the boss will mostly vanish after using it.

A band aid would be something if a class is unplayabale or maybe even broken af. But nothing of both was a thing with the SHB monk so far.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

What Monk actually needs is for Chakra as a system get completely rebuilt to remove the RNG and to add more depth to it. It also needs an actual Central Mechanic for Chakra to support in the way that Ninki and Kenki support Ninjutsu and Iaijutsu respectively. Monk can't just stay as it is in 6.0 or the devs are going to be dealing with another Monk meltdown.

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Chakra is fine for me. It isn´t that much RNG based as ppl claim thx to bootshine. The buff from brotherhood did a lot to it too. The actual worst case scenario is, when the 5th procc comes up lik 0,1s before you use bootshine with its 100% crit. But seen all over the fight, you might lose 1 full chakra activation. It´s nothing to care about unless you want to grind some logs.

I don´t want to see just another ressource with 2 or 3 buttons on the monk like you´ve on tanks or is similar to kenki. Classes should be special and they should have a soul.
GL probably won´t come back, so SE should focus on the fist-stances, because they´re still a special part of the monk but pretty much useless. 2 of them are not even viable. Combine them or let us activate all 2-3 under after finishing special conditions infight to activate a powerful elemental attack and to gain a damage + movement + defense buff for 30s or so. The buff or elemental attack could even change based on the activation based on the order you use the fists. e.g. fire -> wind -> earth = dot attack... wind -> earth -> fire = a range attack. (A mix of midare activation and ninjutsu, but you can´t just activate it like you want. You´ve to collect X amount of elements in any form similar to white / black mana of redmage.)

Just something you have to care about and which brings any use to the class. Not just some other random named off gcd buttons next to the 123-456 rotation which gains a ressource to activate them.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

While I agree with... basically everything you've said, that MNK in it's current state is a disastrously boring job - but I heavily disagree with bringing GL back. Not because it was a bad mechanic per se (it wasn't), but because SE themselves cannot be trusted with developing upon it anymore. Every single attempt at "expanding" upon it has led to MNK being gutted by a loss of focus in every expansion. It's better to leave GL in the dust for something hopefully new rather than risking another 2 years of nothing but more useless GL upkeep tools. (Blitz, please)

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Id rather they kept GL but gut the fist stances. Those are begging to be removed but are still here for some reason.

at least 2.0 monk was functional and somewhat fun compared to the mess SB was

we're back to square 1 rather than square -5

I've been a monk main since Heavensward... but all sense of urgency in the job is gone now that there's no greased lightning. I thought I would enjoy not having that mechanic be a stumbling block in raids, but now that it's gone, I feel like something important is lost from the job. And unlike a job like dragoon or ninja, there's just not a lot to do within your rotation to keep the job interesting.

Gotta put the job on the back burner for the next few months and hope that it gets something next expansion to make the job fun again.

I would say Monk lost it's identity with Grease Lightning being made a trait. Not that that was a good identity but still. When you are first a Pugilist they tell you that the reason you go from one form to the next was to gain GL. Now that's gone and you have no reason to go from one form to the next. It might as well be a combo based job like DRG, NIN, and SAM. Sure you get a reason way later with Leaden Fist, but that's not enough imo. Also lets look at what you get when you become a MNK from a PUG. Fists of Fire. A "stance" that you basically stay in for the rest of your life. DRG gives lancers jumps. NIN gives rogues mudras. MNK should give pugilists something more than an ability that should have just been a trait.

This is reason why I dropped MNK and main SAM for now.
Last chance is 6.0, if they still don’t know what to do with MNK then I’m afraid that MNK will only be a memory for me.

It's not really surprising that it feels like 2.0 Monk, because expansions have only ever added small "QoL" things, half of them so niche you never use them. It was my main in 2.X, but even by HW I was so bored at how it had barely changed. That said, I much prefer it to 5.0 Monk. It's simpler but that's not a bad thing, ShB was one of those cases where how they clearly intended it to be played wasn't how the playerbase found optimizing it. And as has been said countless times, this is just to make it less annoying until 6.0.

That's what SE does. People complain 'cause their job is not part of the meta and when SE listens it gets oversimplified. Kind of a careful what you wish far scenario.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

That's what SE does. People complain 'cause their job is not part of the meta and when SE listens it gets oversimplified. Kind of a careful what you wish far scenario.

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People complaining about Monk for the last three expansions haven't been complaining about it's meta position (for the most part). Heavensward was the closest, but the complaints there were largely that Monk suffered from basic design problems that were fixed on other jobs like how it lacked Aggro Control and how its TP sustain caused it to burn out extremely fast in a fight. The last two expansions have been complaints about the new actions and abilities that the job has received running contrary to what players want from it such as RoF's slow and the Crit RNG of Deep Meditation or the new skills being objectively terrible at what they were actually designed to do such as Riddle of Earth being so bad at GL refreshing that they made Anatman, which in turn was so bad at it that they eventually just changed Form Shift.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

That's what SE does. People complain 'cause their job is not part of the meta and when SE listens it gets oversimplified. Kind of a careful what you wish far scenario.

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I'm not sure if you're serious, but Monk has consistently been among the top five DPS jobs in the game throughout this expansion, a position in the meta solidified by its consistent output across all high level content.

can we get touch of death back then it will feel like monk in 2.0

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

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Let´s face it, ppl complain about everything everywhere or want this or that changed, not only on Monk. Samurai for example is probably the most broken class in FF14. The damage is insane even if you doesn´t play that well. The whole kit has everything you could imagine on a melee class to keep up 100% uptime easily without a real damage loss. You can even adjust your rotation if its needed. But still ppl complain about this or that because "it´s not perfectly timed", whatever.

You´re obviously fine with the new Monk, but what do you think will happen with 6.0? What is in the need to change when you can play 123 and spam off gcd´s? Away from the useless abilities and being soulless?! Whatever will happen, ppl will probably complain about that. And tbh, i can´t imagine something real is gonna happen, because it would´ve happen already. 1-2 more off gcd´s? God please no... The bar is already filled and spamming some buttons on cd is no fun.

5.3 felt way better and objectively seen here is a pro/con list:

Pro:
- RoE was better to do badass mechanics. Would´ve been the same in the current content like E12s diamond dust/gaias rage or E11s cycles, etc... Now you´ve to spam it, so SE can´t even be serious about "please play positionals".
- Fists of wind was much smoother in the fights.
- There were less off gcd´s which put the player under pressure for max. damage output especially in the opener or at such badass mechanics where you can´t keep uptime all day long.
- It had a soul.

Con:
- You lost GL stacks when you died or in cutszenes.
- Brotherhood only effected phys. dps.

The other changes are more QoL things which were not needed that hard. After cutszenes you normally had your opener up again and dieing shouldn´t even be a thing.
The only real improvement came with brotherhood and i seriously can´t see how this class still needs a lot of work. It´s already braindead af and thx to the complaints the smooth gameplay is gone as exchange that we don´t have to maintain GL anymore. So what should happen?! Objectively seen it is what it is and any new stuff would just overfill the bar for no real reason.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

I'm not sure if you're serious, but Monk has consistently been among the top five DPS jobs in the game throughout this expansion, a position in the meta solidified by its consistent output across all high level content.

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Then why was GL such an issue then? Because it can fall off and you need to build it up, right? If its DPS output is still enough, then why was it changed?

Honestly, it doesn't really matter to me. All I know is that another interesting idea was t0rn (pardon the pun) out and we got a more boring job as a result. That's the cycle we always repeat.

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

It's not really surprising that it feels like 2.0 Monk, because expansions have only ever added small "QoL" things, half of them so niche you never use them. It was my main in 2.X, but even by HW I was so bored at how it had barely changed. That said, I much prefer it to 5.0 Monk. It's simpler but that's not a bad thing, ShB was one of those cases where how they clearly intended it to be played wasn't how the playerbase found optimizing it. And as has been said countless times, this is just to make it less annoying until 6.0.

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To simplify one class after the other IS a bad thing. Maybe not for mighty casuals, but for a lot of other players. There is a reason why so many players left such static combat MMO´s to play the action ones, because the combat brings much more enjoyment instead of staying on one spot and 123,123... It happens again and again and made me even stop playing for a while on my main char when the tanks got such a great rework that you don´t have to care about anything anymore. Tankstance ftw! 123 and then 1 button spam 5 times in a row. No armorpierce, dd stance or whatever anymore. Just keep your damage buff up, wow...
It´s the same with monk now or with machinist before. As monk the opener is the exact stuff you do all the fight. 123,456 and off gcd spam. The only fun aspect are still the positionals. The rest has become even more annoying with less movement speed and that you´ve to spam other stuff to have the same effect you had with 1 click before. The current monk probably doesn´t even attract more players. You´re still that dumb melee with positionals 90% of players can´t play or don´t care about for different reasons.

Don´t take it too negative, but you seem to be a machinist main for a long time now. Moving from A to B mechanical wise and still pressing some buttons without any need to care about anything is nothing but boring to me. Even tanks have a "harder" job since they´re melee, have to press defs here and there and have to adjust with the boss.
If SE continues to simplify more and more jobs, they should get ride of savage and ultimate too. Just bring more brain afk dungeons and tons of glam, Limsa Lominsa will be happy. Gameplay-wise it makes no sense to play a holy-trinity-MMORPG like this, if the classes and content are not unique, interesting and challenging anymore.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Then why was GL such an issue then? Because it can fall off and you need to build it up, right? If its DPS output is still enough, then why was it changed?

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Because a lot of players complained about losing GL despite SE having dedicated the majority of Monk's new toys this expansion specifically to trying to preserve it, effectively invalidating a lot of the work the devs put into the job. It also doesn't help that a lot of those new toys weren't very good or interesting to begin with. It also doesn't help that Monk has historically been a lower population job, either because of a lack of visual appeal, or the demands it placed on players. There's a thread on the boards right now where positionals are now the target of someone's ire and they want them removed from the game... and they weren't even complaining about Monks directly, the job that has more positionals than anyone other!

Now, I ain't sayin' that Monk is some sort of job for the HARDCORE ELITE RAIDERS out there, it's nothing of the sort. It never has been. It always has been easy to land positionals, it always has been easy to maintain GL so long as you kept landing your combos. But I do think the job has been PERCIEVED as being difficult to play. Honestly, if someone like me could have stuck with it through HW and SB, it probably wasn't very hard to play lmao

The thing is, the tools provided in ShB worked more or less as intended in fights where control or access to the boss wasn't stripped away from the player for periods of time longer than the buff could last. The problem is that encounter design has regularly been unfriendly to GL maintenance for some time, and with ShB it hit an absurd peak with long cutscenes which, while cool the first time through, ended up being little more than glaring reminders that SE placed visual aesthetics before the gameplay of one specific job. Reminders that can't be skipped in any way whatsoever. And it's not like these phase transitions have TP to worry about anymore!

The problem with GL is entirely the result of SE failing to provide a workable means to preserve the buff whenever they decide that a fight needs a phase transition that goes on longer than GL ever last. They consistently went with an "all or nothing" approach to GL, you either had it, or you didn't. It even extended to Steel Peak- Sorry, Tornado Kick, for the longest time, which basically meant that an OG capstone skill only place on our bars was for phase changes where we knew we'd lose GL anyway... except they also gave us Six Sided Garbage to try preserving it (while designing fights with phase changes that still outlast the buff timer anyway). Ultimately, rather than actually fix the problems with retaining GL in these extended fights that our new tools were never built to account for, they just gave up on it entirely.

It's stuff like this that makes me unexcited for Monks in 6.0, because the devs have an extensive history of failing to address painpoints with the job. GL is gone, but we still have three elemental fists, only one of which actually matters to any degree, which have survived multiple button culls and replacements despite having this problem essentially since ARR???? At least prior to killing off GL, we had TWO elemental fists worth leaving on the bars.

More frustrating, when players have figured out how to work with this janky kit, the devs have come in to say "No, that's not what we intended." They did it for the old TK rotation, they did it with Anatman in our opener (and then resolved one of the biggest problems people had with Anatman in the first place by making it TICK IMMEDIATELY ON USE like COME ON SE what the hecking heck). I'm just waiting for them to remove Bootshine from our kit because maybe we weren't intended to have the most powerful part of our combo be the darn opening attack.

Didn't they mention on a live letter once before that they're planning on doing bigger changes but have to wait until 6.0? Regardless, I don't really care at this point about losing greased lightning. It feels like it plays almost identical anyway, minus building stacks in your opener and spamming formshift. Monk had way too many "save Greased Lightning" moves, now that it's gone we might get abilities that actually change how monk feels. I really hope it does because monk in 2.x didn't feel all that different from 3/4/5 aside from the later half of 4.x.

Monk always felt a like a class they never knew what to do with it and Greased Lightning probably is one of the best examples of that. Tornado Kick ate up your GL, which made it worthless in most cases. Riddle of Earth required you to be hit for it to trigger the GL reset. Anatman required you to stand still. Riddle of Fire slowed you down to a crawl and was contrast to the fact that GL was about going fast. Six Sided Star kind of did the same.

Honestly would love a pruning of skills for monk, while adding back some of what we've lost since hw. The fist stances need to go in general, even when we were encouraged to use them, switching stances mid fight was pretty clunky.
And as much as i like the newer chakra based animations (elixir field, enlightenment), they look really dumb when you turn effects off.
I'd like a return to the more pugilistic version of monk, the simple days of just punching a man in the face.

Now that we're a ways out from the changes.... I'm not sure I have faith in them to know what to do to build up on the job now that the GL timer isn't an issue.

They extended the duration of greased lightning (I tried to find the exact patch this happened, but couldn't. Believe it was one of the Stormblood patches that added 2 seconds to its duration)

So if the short timer on greased lightning was making it hard to build up the job, they could have changed how long the buff lasts any time they wanted. Now it's gone and what few skills still stuck around to maintain buffs are just there now to maintain twin snakes.

I'll be thrilled to be proven wrong in this regard... but I'm just not sure that I have faith they have a plan on how to really bring this job forward in the same ways they did with ninja and dragoon.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Now that we're a ways out from the changes.... I'm not sure I have faith in them to know what to do to build up on the job now that the GL timer isn't an issue.

They extended the duration of greased lightning (I tried to find the exact patch this happened, but couldn't. Believe it was one of the Stormblood patches that added 2 seconds to its duration)

So if the short timer on greased lightning was making it hard to build up the job, they could have changed how long the buff lasts any time they wanted. Now it's gone and what few skills still stuck around to maintain buffs are just there now to maintain twin snakes.

I'll be thrilled to be proven wrong in this regard... but I'm just not sure that I have faith they have a plan on how to really bring this job forward in the same ways they did with ninja and dragoon.

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It's tricky, but it can be done. There are a plethora of theorycrafted ideas and kits done for the sake of expanding MNK in their own way but I can still very clearly see the concern for obvious reasons. If you told me that SE was going to actually introduce something new to MNK 2-3 years ago I would have believed you. Now? It's hard to give a generous answer to that question because of how poorly they're treating all roles in the game by continuing to ignore the portions of the player-base willing to give criticism and obliterating skill ceilings. Square Enix despite having such a terrible design philosophy to the jobs of Shadowbringers, have proven that they're still capable of making good jobs. Gunbreaker is evidence of that, yes it needs work, but they've still made a solid job with an identity of its own. Well, as unique as you can be for a ShB tank that is.

It's still possible seeing how generally well received the other melee jobs are is what I'm saying, but history has yet to be proven wrong when it comes to MNK.

I feel like it says a lot about Monk/ the 5.4 rework that the best anyone had to say about it in 5.4 was "Well it's a good start but it better not be all there is to it" and now about two months removed from the high of the job finally getting any sort of change people are mad at the job for still being janky and severely lacking both in what mechanics it has and how developed what little it has actually is.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

I feel like it says a lot about Monk/ the 5.4 rework that the best anyone had to say about it in 5.4 was "Well it's a good start but it better not be all there is to it" and now about two months removed from the high of the job finally getting any sort of change people are mad at the job for still being janky and severely lacking both in what mechanics it has and how developed what little it has actually is.

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I enjoy MNK now and find myself quite often during phase shifts spamming form shift. Hard habit to break, and even harder to use SSS when as a free sprint to get out of AOE and shoulder tackle back in.

Do I wish I had new skills that aren't from 2.0. i.e. Dragon kick, twin snakes, etc. Sure. Do I wish I had new animations. Most definitely. But what I wished more then anything is to play this job with less frustration. GL was my frustration and it permeated over the years, and the focus of skills helping me to quell my frustrations? Yuck! The additions made to keep my stacks up was quite literally adding to my frustrations. I didn't want more ways to keep up a horrible mechanic, I wanted growth and progression. Adding another stack of GL just seemed "meh".

The one thing I am most happy about is I am no longer under pressure to keep GL up. I now have time to strategize and formulate, without this fear of losing my stacks. And that monk is now just passively "fast" by design. No build up, no maintenance, no disengage clunky ness, no spamming, no more frustrations. Just fast, unhindered high crit melee speed. Just a monk being a monk.

Monk opener is simple enough now, what with Tornado Kick being OGCD and unshackled from GL. Burst phase is self explanatory now and doesn't require to much effort to squeeze inside the time limit now that it's charges with a large grace period.
Chackra isn't RNG anymore persay, but still need to rely on crit chance to generate a chackra. At least it's 100% chance now, and your guaranteed a charge every bootshine, which is great.
Brotherhood is now helpful in pushing your Forbidden or Enlightenment damage. I find AOE on the Monk to be the most effective out of ANY class, just due to it's crazy fast GCD and high crit chance. Double Monk on dungeon runs MELT large packs of mobs.

After 2 months I have mellowed out with monk and no longer find it frustrating to play. It's very chill and fun to play. I choose to play monk when farming Bozja CE's, castrum, Deleabrum, grinding out memories for my relic, running CT, Void Ark, RCoR for haunting memories.

I'm excited to see what Endwalker will bring for monk. It can only get better imo since GL has been axed and we aren't going back to it.

I was so excited by the 5.4 rework, I started raiding again on Monk and for awhile I was enjoying it however, I ended up dropping the tier (due to other reasons) but Monk really started to feel just... unfun to play. I really don't like using PB under RoF, I don't get any satisfaction out of it whatsoever and actually find it more of a nusiance due to having to constantly move from flank to rear, or praying I have time to slip in an arms length or RoE charge to help. Chakra is much better now but now it's just obscene how much you get and makes it really frustrating when it procs but one of your other ogcds is also up. Whilst this may have happened before, now it happens all the time and burst windows have become something of a nightmare to fit everything in, god help you if you let anything drift (and you probably will).

Frankly, my hopes have been somewhat dashed and all I can do is pray that 6.0 really is a full rework or this might be the final straw for me. All the other melee jobs feel so much more feature complete. Sure, they have little issues here and there, like SAM allignments but they are something you can just deal with, Monk just feels kinda boring to play now and I found it more tiring to play due to PB under RoF. Feels like every encounter was designed to screw with 90s jobs in this latest tier and you really feel it on Monk.

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Originally Posted by Irisdina_Wiloh

I really don't like using PB under RoF, I don't get any satisfaction out of it whatsoever and actually find it more of a nusiance due to having to constantly move from flank to rear, or praying I have time to slip in an arms length or RoE charge to help.

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I seem to constantly get crucified for saying this. I hate the positional playstyle of MNK, but I love the fun gameplay of punching and kicking. If that makes sense? Positionals are what some say "gives the job identity". That's dumb imo. What gives a job an identity is a playstyle that is unique (AST,GNB,DNC to name a few). These jobs STAND OUT because they are unique by design.

Monk's postionals are not what make it unique. They are what hold it back. Dancing around the boss/mob like a moron to play optimally isn't fun to me. There are times when I just become so lazy that I don't even move for positionals just out of protest. True north and RoE are nice, but MAN do I miss that 30 secs from RoE, albeit clunky to activate by getting hit.

I have a feeling 6.0 is going to make monk being pushed into a ninja style gameplay given what we have now. I personally HOPE our monk skills can be used to generate a final attack combo (like mudra). Only monk is just actively using it's GCD skills in sequence to build an OGCD attack. Chackra will remain passive, but I would be very appreciative if they added a new chackra spender that allowed 60 secs avoiding positionals. Sacrifice oGCD DPS for no positionals for 60 sec. Man I would use that as an opener as I would pop that immediately at the start of a fight.

I digress.

This is all I would wish for, but know I will never get.

I love monk, but it's a domestic abuse relationship.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I seem to constantly get crucified for saying this. I hate the positional playstyle of MNK, but I love the fun gameplay of punching and kicking. If that makes sense? Positionals are what some say "gives the job identity". That's dumb imo. What gives a job an identity is a playstyle that is unique (AST,GNB,DNC to name a few). These jobs STAND OUT because they are unique by design.

Monk's postionals are not what make it unique. They are what hold it back. Dancing around the boss/mob like a moron to play optimally isn't fun to me. There are times when I just become so lazy that I don't even move for positionals just out of protest. True north and RoE are nice, but MAN do I miss that 30 secs from RoE, albeit clunky to activate by getting hit.

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Everyone his/her opinion, but your view to the things is highly casual and more like "I don´t like it, please change." The first thing i thought when i read this once again, go play diablo. It´s a mobsmasher where you can do whatever you want with any class. Playing monk there is a lot of fun to and you don´t have to care about anything a handful of skills you choose by your own.

What you claim to be "unique" is far away from being it. Pretty much any major class works the same, just with some unique buttons spread on the subclasses, which doesn´t even differentiate in the core gameplay that much.

- All tanks got dumb´d down, have nearly the same defs (next to mag/phy inscriptions) and all have them has 1 damagebuff and playing 123 until their burstwindow comes up. The differences are negatable. 2 have permanent damagebuffs, the other point&click CD. One has more magical defs, another one more lifesteal, the next blockchance, the last pretty much everything you want. PLD/WAR/DRK has 5x 1 button spam meanwhile GNB has a 142434 burst attack. Nothing is real unique between them, such a difference between animations.

- Healers the same. A handful of single / aoe heals and off-heals. 1 groupshield which works slightly different. SCH has 2 similar pets (thx to the dumb down) which assists a little bit but can´t do more. AST has the cards (which got dumb´d down). WHM some nice selfbuffs and a full heal. But that doesn´t change the playstyle that much. All of them keep up a dot effect and spam 1 other attack until they´ve to heal. There is only a little difference in mobility made up by casting times, which is needed otherwise AST wouldn´t be able to use the cards. But having a unique playstyle is something else.
(The probably most unique thing on AST is the choice to choose between hots or shields compared to the other healers, but that is doomed once again with 6.0.)

continue...


- Phys. ranges are the same either. Running around as you want and do what you want, whenever you want to do it. 1 just goes for damage and spams off gcd´s. The other relies on dot proccs and group buffs. The last one more on another dps in the group. But calling it unique to press "dance into 1342" or whatever is shown every couple of minutes, is again... nothing what i can call a unique playstyle. It´s a feature and instead of pressing 1 button to buff the whole group, you press a handful of lightning buttons next to your standard 123 procc depended rotation. It´s such a simple design and nothing which forces the player under pressure or let them enjoy a real unique game experience.


Now we come the positionals. To play them permanently IS a unique design choice and change the playstyle completely. There are overall much more thoughts put on the melee and magical dps. MNK has permanent positionals and is the only class without a range attack. RDM has range and melee combos, which is definately unique. NIN has a teleport, stealth and ninjutsu you can use by your own choice. BLM is pretty much static compared to any other class and have to adjust the rotation based on proccs and mechanics.
Only DRG, SMN and SAM are pretty standard melee/magical dps. Pretty sad to say that about SMN since they could be so cool, but you just stuck on 1 egi mostly, because damage is everything in this game. They could even get ride of it and put some potency on some other nameless off gcd´s like they did on MNK. SMN is fine to play, but not worth to be called like that. SAM´s unique experience is probably a high midare burst, like wow... DRG has atleast a soul in his kit which fits the class and backgroundstory.

That said, MNK was (still is in some way) more of a unique gameplay experience next to a lot of other classes and positionals definately don´t hold him back. If you don´t like to play them, then you´ve 2 choices:

- be lazy and lose a minimum of 10% max. dps.
- don´t play MNK.

And for me and tons of others, nothing could be more boring than being static on a boss in a forgivable, item based 100% rotation game like FF14 is. To dumb down one class after another IS NOT a good thing. The game is predictable in a lot of ways, the most content doesn´t even need a real tactic or anything. The only good design choice in the current tier is, that healers actually have to be healers in E11/12s and medigation has to be on point to survive. More of that is needed in the future to go away from the full dmg healers/tanks. Other stuff is far away from being that MMO teamchallenge or unique class experience.

[QUOTE=ssunny2008;5501944
- be lazy and lose a minimum of 10% max. dps.
- don´t play MNK.

And for me and tons of others, nothing could be more boring than being static on a boss in a forgivable, item based 100% rotation game like FF14 is. To dumb down one class after another IS NOT a good thing. The game is predictable in a lot of ways, the most content doesn´t even need a real tactic or anything. The only good design choice in the current tier is, that healers actually have to be healers in E11/12s and medigation has to be on point to survive. More of that is needed in the future to go away from the full dmg healers/tanks. Other stuff is far away from being that MMO teamchallenge or unique class experience.[/QUOTE]

All good points!

I fail to see how your static on a boss, when there are numerous mechanics that get in the way. In the case of monk (which WAS unique with GL uptime) had to be engaged with the boss to generate more GL. Compound this with positional's, AOE, mechanics, with GL? GL was the one thing that needed to be abolished to not change EVERYTHING else for one job. That's the past now. Look towards the future.

Your argument is based on Monk HAS to move around like a moron to be unique. Pretty loose argument. That's like saying Paladin has to jump twice to block. Silly.

I will NEVER accept the idea to make a class compelling is to just implement FORCEING me to move around to play better. I will however accept adding more mechanics the support the job/class I like. DNC is compelling, RDM is compelling, MCH is compelling, although I don't fully enjoy the style each of those offer, yet NONE of those need positionals to be compelling. I like monk. Positionals are a lazy way of forcing you to be engaged. If positionals were removed from NIN I don't think anyone would come back and say PUT THEM BACK IN. Honestly? Ask yourself that question.

I embrace the changes, and have NEVER felt bored playing monk before or after the changes. Frustrated before the changes...yes. Frustrated after...HELL NO! Amazing how that works. I personally get bored on RDM and that's the way it is. I always come back to monk, because I like monk's style. I always bring up the conversation about job identity, but others always bemoan the issue of "monk has deep gameplay don't change it!" or "GL was fine the way it was!". Yet here we are...GL is gone...Monk is changed...and still others looking to the past to keep monk the same, but also cry that it has no evolution.

Just because something is simpler...doesn't make it dumb. I also praise the changes to warrior with Storms eye timer, and nascent simpler to use. Defend it all you want...warrior is easy to pick up and play. I think out of ALL the QOL I want out of any MMO, job, class, UI, controls, systems, I don't want to be frustrated. It keeps me playing. It keeps me happy. And more importantly appreciate REAL change vs. keeping things stuck in the mud.

We only ever had 2.00 Monk, and Tornado Kick Monk. The average player didn't like TK Monk (their loss, TK Monk was fun).

There's no step back with this rework, since there were never any steps forward. Monk never had anything added onto its kit after ARR anyway.

Ignoring TK in SB, Monk is the one job that has never changed in the entirety of the game's lifespan.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I love monk, but it's a domestic abuse relationship.

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Honestly, it's your comparison to domestic freaking abuse that makes me dismiss your opinion about monks more than anything else. It's a videogame, dude.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Everyone his/her opinion, but your view to the things is highly casual and more like "I don´t like it, please change." The first thing i thought when i read this once again, go play diablo. It´s a mobsmasher where you can do whatever you want with any class. Playing monk there is a lot of fun to and you don´t have to care about anything a handful of skills you choose by your own.

What you claim to be "unique" is far away from being it. Pretty much any major class works the same, just with some unique buttons spread on the subclasses, which doesn´t even differentiate in the core gameplay that much.

- All tanks got dumb´d down, have nearly the same defs (next to mag/phy inscriptions) and all have them has 1 damagebuff and playing 123 until their burstwindow comes up. The differences are negatable. 2 have permanent damagebuffs, the other point&click CD. One has more magical defs, another one more lifesteal, the next blockchance, the last pretty much everything you want. PLD/WAR/DRK has 5x 1 button spam meanwhile GNB has a 142434 burst attack. Nothing is real unique between them, such a difference between animations.

- Healers the same. A handful of single / aoe heals and off-heals. 1 groupshield which works slightly different. SCH has 2 similar pets (thx to the dumb down) which assists a little bit but can´t do more. AST has the cards (which got dumb´d down). WHM some nice selfbuffs and a full heal. But that doesn´t change the playstyle that much. All of them keep up a dot effect and spam 1 other attack until they´ve to heal. There is only a little difference in mobility made up by casting times, which is needed otherwise AST wouldn´t be able to use the cards. But having a unique playstyle is something else.
(The probably most unique thing on AST is the choice to choose between hots or shields compared to the other healers, but that is doomed once again with 6.0.)

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Incredibly well thought-out reply(s). I'm in full agreement.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

Honestly, it's your comparison to domestic freaking abuse that makes me dismiss your opinion about monks more than anything else. It's a videogame, dude.

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Your taking it literally. Be careful.

This was a joke leaning into the fact that monk has consistently and lowered my expectations. TK during Stromblood was fun...but SE again slapped me around upset that I burned the steak. Then as I lay there reeling SE embraced me saying "I only do this because I care, and want to make you better...."

It's a forum...not everything in here is substantial. Just a way to blow off steam and speak our opinions. I take EVERYTHING in here with a grain of salt. I ignore most (not all) comments designed to elicit an reflex of emotional reaction.

If you can't understand this is to open a dialogue, and place where we can agree and disagree as adults then I suppose SE should just remove the forums all together for fear of it's players not being mature and respecting each other.

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Originally Posted by Luin

We only ever had 2.00 Monk, and Tornado Kick Monk. The average player didn't like TK Monk (their loss, TK Monk was fun).

There's no step back with this rework, since there were never any steps forward. Monk never had anything added onto its kit after ARR anyway.

Ignoring TK in SB, Monk is the one job that has never changed in the entirety of the game's lifespan.

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