So, about Coils and the MSQ Roulette.

First time poster, and long time lurker! There will be slight spoilers.

While I was pushing my alt through ShB some time ago I had hit the wall that directed me to finish CT. This irked me at first. I had my alts made to only unlock ShB content to make their daily roulettes dish out only current tomestones. Then, I remembered way back when I started this game back in HW. I was enthralled by the story until Alisaie popped up. I had completely forgotten she existed, and I felt like I must have missed an entire questline. Turns out I did. I, as a new player starting in HW, was never directed to do the Binding Coils in any way. A set of instances that I argue hold more importance to the MSQ than CT. I didn't even KNOW that story existed until SB when an fcmate ran it with me.

I was floored! So much story and context that changed my second, third, fourth.. (okay it's been a few times >>) run through the msq.

Now, what does this have to do with MSQ Roulette? Well, we can agree Praetorium and Castrum are unique instances that do not fit into any of the other DF categories, but exist to facilitate the completion of the MSQ for new players by enticing older players to que with juicy exp.

What about slipping Coils in somehow during the lull periods of the ARR post-50 msq? I'm not entirely sure how or where, but it would also help break up a lot of the monotony. They could be added to MSQ Roulette to expand the variety, and keep the story flow for new players moving on from ARR to HW. Also, who doesn't want more Alisaie? (Old and bad voice acting aside).

The problem is coils when done synced is very above the difficulty scale of the average duty finder player. To THIS DAY you still encounter people who fail at two or three of the turns when doing them undersized.

Not to mention coils are Normal Raids and MSQ is for dungeons.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

The problem is coils when done synced is very above the difficulty scale of the average duty finder player. To THIS DAY you still encounter people who fail at two or three of the turns when doing them undersized.

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That is actually very true. Considering that it's not in content anymore, perhaps they could give people entering it through the que some kind of legacy buff? Or turn down the severity of certain mechanics.

Uh... I know this is a selfish reasoning, and I mean no offense, but I'd rather they left coil alone.
Duty Roulettes over time already impacted dungeon and raid design in a way I find very negative.

I would say selfish, unfortunately. They have just made a point of enforcing participation in old content for the MSQ, and Coils is jam packed with important story bits. Besides, I honestly think with a sync buff and a bit of tweaking it would be good to have some instances with bite in the currently fangless leveling experience.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I would say selfish, unfortunately. They have just made a point of enforcing participation in old content for the MSQ, and Coils is jam packed with important story bits. Besides, I honestly think with a sync buff and a bit of tweaking it would be good to have some instances with bite in the currently fangless leveling experience.

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You can unsych them quite easly, though? And still get to see the story - I dont see much difference between them nerfing Coil outright and you nerfing Coil yourself by going in at level 80 with one or two friends, at least not for your personal experience. The only difference would be that at the current point, there are two options to play through Coil:
One easy one, if you're just doing it for the story and/our loot and/our achievement.
And one "difficult" one that lets you experience the fights and might even provide a little challenge still.

Dont fool yourself thinking that its an achievement to clear raids that are DF friendly. If Coil would be made "DF-fit" it would be nerfed so much into the ground that you wont see the fights/mechanics anyways because it would be made braindead easy - pick the braindead easy option that already exists and leave the challenge of the post to those who'd like to have it, I'd say.

A sync buff wouldn't be nearly enough for most players to figure out those old raid mechanics.
They'd need to revamp the whole raid series completely (not just a bit of tweaking) and add an easy mode, similar to the other raids.
I think it would be cool and rewarding for those who beat ARR, to be able to experience some raid boss fights. Totally agree with that. (and I would actually like to have to face some of those bosses sometimes in my raid roulette, not gonna lie)
But it sounds like a lot of development effort, for something that would really not be that useful.

Honestly, a simpler solution would just be to make it mandatory for the level 90 MSQ or something like that, so players could just go unsynced and go through it easily solo.
Maybe it will be, so that, when we finally meet with Fourchenault (the twins' dad), we can explain him what truly happened to his father...
Actually, they could have added it as a requirement to the Wherlyt questline...or even for the first step of the Relic quest. Both of those are also somewhat related to the end of 1.0...

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Dont fool yourself thinking that its an achievement to clear raids that are DF friendly.

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Oh no, you entirely misunderstand my request. I'm proposing this for the explicit purpose of stringing the story together for newer players. I don't think clearing it now, in any capacity, is an achievement greater than finishing an Alliance Raid. There's just a narrative gap between ARR and HW that Coils fills that makes me feel that, if they are making instances like CT mandatory, should possibly be looked into.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

A sync buff wouldn't be nearly enough for most players to figure out those old raid mechanics.
They'd need to revamp the whole raid series completely (not just a bit of tweaking) and add an easy mode, similar to the other raids.
I think it would be cool and rewarding for those who beat ARR, to be able to experience some raid boss fights. Totally agree with that. (and I would actually like to have to face some of those bosses sometimes in my raid roulette, not gonna lie)
But it sounds like a lot of development effort, for something that would really not be that useful.

Honestly, a simpler solution would just be to make it mandatory for the level 90 MSQ or something like that, so players could just go unsynced and go through it easily solo.

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After thinking on it a bit, I do agree. Perhaps taking the story bits and making them bite-sized versions for the msq? As you point out, a lot of things point back to Coils. I just felt kind of cheated going BACK to it instead of experiencing it as it happened in the timeline. Like, yes, I know what happens and I know these characters now. When I started back in HW? It all meant nothing to me and I felt lost in places. Got to think of it from a new player experience.

Binding coil is easy to run unsynced even solo, except for the last turn which I think requires two people but is still easy. Second coil actually gives you a run for your money, especially turns 3 and 4. I think turn 3 has one mechanic which requires at least three players. I wouldn't want to try that synced with random players. I haven't tried final coil yet so can't comment on it. I wouldn't mind introducing rebalanced versions of all three, similar in difficulty to the newer normal raids.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Binding coil is easy to run unsynced even solo, except for the last turn which I think requires two people but is still easy.

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Nah I've been able to solo every turn, it's no big deal if you know how to handle it.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Nah I've been able to solo every turn, it's no big deal if you know how to handle it.

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Oh? Doesn't the boss of second coil third turn have a mechanic where two or three players need to stand together or it's an instant kill? Granted I don't remember if I've tried that at Lv80. I don't have PLD though, so can't cheat.

Edit: I don't remember if it's a true instakill or just really high damage. But the last time I tried it I wasn't able to figure out how to survive it alone.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Oh? Doesn't the boss of second coil third turn have a mechanic where two or three players need to stand together or it's an instant kill? Granted I don't remember if I've tried that at Lv80. I don't have PLD though, so can't cheat.

Edit: I don't remember if it's a true instakill or just really high damage. But the last time I tried it I wasn't able to figure out how to survive it alone.

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Someone *cough me cough* made a coil solo guide just recently. All the turns can be done easy, I think I know the one you are talking about but, no, they can all be easily solo'd, I did my own guides on dnc so I really didn't even have heals to fall back on.

Just look up Mica Does Stuff on youtube and you will find all the coil solo guides.

I feel like some of these raids should have a story mode where you play through the encounters and get the story plus anything the story unlocks (like what happens after you get through the Omega stuff).

Trust system for them maybe? I'd be fine with them dropping less loot or even NO loot but with some of these, especially Coils and lately also maybe Eden, the story is uh...kinda hugely important.

Yeah, looks like second coil turn 3 is a cakewalk now. I didn't even get to the mechanic which requires multiple players. So it must have been at Lv70 I last tried it. And possibly as healer class; the DoT did a decent amount of damage even to me Lv80 RDM, so at Lv70 I might've needed Esuna and/or heals to counter it.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I feel like some of these raids should have a story mode where you play through the encounters and get the story plus anything the story unlocks (like what happens after you get through the Omega stuff).

Trust system for them maybe? I'd be fine with them dropping less loot or even NO loot but with some of these, especially Coils and lately also maybe Eden, the story is uh...kinda hugely important.

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Oh, yes!! That would actually be ideal. As much as I love to run msq dungeons with friends, I started to do them first with Trusts due to the extra dialogue they would throw out.

IMO among the ARR revamp they should've made an easy mode that just drops the crafting items and no titels until maybe the final one, so itll be part of Raid roulett or could at least get its own coil roulett...

While Coils is personally fun and has a lot of filler content for Alisaie its optional because honestly while the majority of the coils are pretty cut and dry, the major fights in each grouping was a painful learning experience back and even now with the echo at level 50 and its not something you can easily blow through and people would simply abandoned after the first maybe the second wipe. (Twin, Nael, and Bahamut for example). These raids are still tough.

I for one am against coils in a roulette setting. The fights are a quite a challenge still at sync and I don't want to see them nerf it.

Some of the issues with coils are more related with mechanics that are either unintuitive (i.e. Twintania's Twister) or excessively punishing (T9 Meteors and Golems) for full parties with no previous organisation and people who most likely won't have prepared to death with.

But I must confess a small part of me yearns for the chaos that T9 with no nerfs being snuck in Roulettes would bring.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I feel like some of these raids should have a story mode where you play through the encounters and get the story plus anything the story unlocks (like what happens after you get through the Omega stuff).

Trust system for them maybe? I'd be fine with them dropping less loot or even NO loot but with some of these, especially Coils and lately also maybe Eden, the story is uh...kinda hugely important.

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At level 80, you can unsync and solo all the Coils, so it’s basically a story mode. Some you need to know how to handle certain mechanics, but they’re all very doable by any role at level 80.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

At level 80, you can unsync and solo all the Coils, so it’s basically a story mode. Some you need to know how to handle certain mechanics, but they’re all very doable by any role at level 80.

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The point is that at lvl 80 it doesn't matter. The context going into HW is already lost.

I have to change my stance here and agree that either a brief storymode or a Trust style version of coils would be ideal for this.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

You can unsych them quite easly, though? And still get to see the story - I dont see much difference between them nerfing Coil outright and you nerfing Coil yourself by going in at level 80 with one or two friends, at least not for your personal experience.

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It does make a difference to the experience though - not to Coil as an isolated experience but to its place in the overall narrative. These events are specifically intended to take place at Lv50 alongside post-ARR MSQ. Alisaie gets a lot of character development that is supposed to take place prior to her re-introduction at Lv60.

A story-mode difficulty level for Coil, along with some restructuring to separate the long cutscenes out of the battle intros, would be excellent to allow everyone to experience this at its intended place. Perhaps don't make it mandatory but do make it more accessible - there wouldn't be a need to lock it behind the EX trials for difficulty any more, so it could be accessible immediately or perhaps the mandatory hard-mode trials could lead into it (but not require it).

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

The point is that at lvl 80 it doesn't matter. The context going into HW is already lost.

I have to change my stance here and agree that either a brief storymode or a Trust style version of coils would be ideal for this.

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If you want to talk about HW context, Coil doesn’t have an actual story impact until Patch 3.4. Even at level 60, it was quite doable with just a handful of people. With a full party of 8 it was pretty faceroll unless people didn’t know how to handle things like Nael meteors and golems, or the T11 nodes/egg. That’s when I did them. And jobs like RDM, DNC, and GNB are laughably broken at level 60, so it would make it even easier.

Developer time could be invested in many other things rather than this. Especially when there are already other options for players to pursue. At the “intended time in the story” or afterwards. If you really want to do them at level 50, just get a party of BLUs. Even more faceroll that it used to be at level 60 back in HW when people did them for the story context during Patch 3.3 (this is when the devs dropped the hint that doing Coil would slightly influence the Patch 3.4’s story).

At the end of the day, we cannot even get the developers to make Praetorium and Castrum into level 50 solo/trust instances, and they are actually part of MSQ progression. It’s unlikely they would ever do this for Coil, which would be a far larger undertaking (being as it’s 12 fights versus 2—13 if you want to count the pointless one).

It'd be a lot easier to just unsync Coils or watch the series on youtube.
Cause even if they put it in Normal Raid Roulette and nerfed it down, absolutely nobody will wait for you to finish the cutscenes before pulling the entire raid and destroying the boss.
And if they make the cutscenes unskippable, nobody's gonna do Coil especially when Prae's a lot easier, and has a lot more incentives to do em.

probably for the best they stay out not just for difficulty
but for stuff like the phoenix cutscene

The problem is, likely many have probably said, Coils is basically savage by default and has no "normal" mode like the future 8 man raids (Alexander, Omega, and Eden).

If you want to make Coils part of the required story, or put it in roulette, it has to be doable on-level. That's a tall ask; I suspect many people who ended up in level-synced Coils via roulette would scream and eat the 30 minute penalty, leaving behind only a cartoonish cloud of dust as they bailed near-instantly.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you want to talk about HW context, Coil doesn’t have an actual story impact until Patch 3.4. Even at level 60, it was quite doable with just a handful of people. With a full party of 8 it was pretty faceroll unless people didn’t know how to handle things like Nael meteors and golems, or the T11 nodes/egg. That’s when I did them. And jobs like RDM, DNC, and GNB are laughably broken at level 60, so it would make it even easier.

Developer time could be invested in many other things rather than this. Especially when there are already other options for players to pursue. At the “intended time in the story” or afterwards. If you really want to do them at level 50, just get a party of BLUs. Even more faceroll that it used to be at level 60 back in HW when people did them for the story context during Patch 3.3 (this is when the devs dropped the hint that doing Coil would slightly influence the Patch 3.4’s story).

At the end of the day, we cannot even get the developers to make Praetorium and Castrum into level 50 solo/trust instances, and they are actually part of MSQ progression. It’s unlikely they would ever do this for Coil, which would be a far larger undertaking (being as it’s 12 fights versus 2—13 if you want to count the pointless one).

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To me its importance is mostly emotional context. It helps you know Alisaie a bit better before she hooks up with the msq and it's the real ending of the 1.0 storyline.


....Also at one point in Stormblood Zenos (I think it was Zenos) was talking about how powerful the WoL is for having defeated Bahamut and he says that whether you stepped into the Coil or not....That was weird.

I’d rather they delete msq roulette entirely and replace the dungeons they’ve admitted were mistakes with solo/trust experiences.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I’d rather they delete msq roulette entirely and replace the dungeons they’ve admitted were mistakes with solo/trust experiences.

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Didn't they say that they planned to update those two dungeons in the future?

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Originally Posted by Garnix

Didn't they say that they planned to update those two dungeons in the future?

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Seems like a better investment of resources than a normal mode of coil.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

....Also at one point in Stormblood Zenos (I think it was Zenos) was talking about how powerful the WoL is for having defeated Bahamut and he says that whether you stepped into the Coil or not....That was weird.

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I think in german it more suggested he was talking about Omega... but either way, as someone said, its the true end of 1.0 and imo it deserves to taken care of - even if its a year long side project.

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Originally Posted by Styrmwyda

The problem is, likely many have probably said, Coils is basically savage by default and has no "normal" mode like the future 8 man raids (Alexander, Omega, and Eden).

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This is normal mode, there is a seperate savage mode for coils

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

This is normal mode, there is a seperate savage mode for coils

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Only the Second Coil has a Savage mode. The rest, when synced, can still be quite difficult for players to complete. Especially the final turns for each tier.

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Originally Posted by Mchappy

Only the Second Coil has a Savage mode. The rest, when synced, can still be quite difficult for players to complete. Especially the final turns for each tier.

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Thats right. only the first and the third sets only have normal modes. Still, its on par on what constituted as normal during ARR. If anything it shows the decline in player skill over the years.

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Originally Posted by Mchappy

Only the Second Coil has a Savage mode. The rest, when synced, can still be quite difficult for players to complete. Especially the final turns for each tier.

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Yes. It's worth remembering that Coils' normal mode would probably be considered savage by current standards; the "savage" mode for Second Coil (T6-T9) was releasing the un-tuned/pre-balancing Second Coil raids as filler content, so far as I know. It was the combination of Coils being too hard (so many people never got the story) and the interest in the harder, more aspirational versions of then that evidently led to our current normal/story mode and savage variant raid design from Heavensward onwards.

A group from my FC actually finally cleared T9 synched last night. It took three hours to do so. And this was with a group of (now-former) sprouts who have wanted to do it for ages, along with experienced savage raiders; it was not like anyone was fresh to the fight, as this was go #3 at it for the group.

I cannot imagine a random Roulette (thus level-synched) party having a productive time in there, any more than if roulette potentially dumped you into E8S.