At this point should Bard and... I dunno, "Sniper" just be split into two jobs?

While the initial concept for the Bard also being an Archer was pretty neat, now that the Bard doesn't really provide much support... it's kind of just an archer class, y'know? They've still got their buffs and all, but they're kind of underwhelming for the most part.

Would it make more sense, at this point, to simply make the advanced form of Archer a Sniper, and make the Bard its own proper Bard-like class? Or are we also beyond ever having a real support class? As for performance for playing instruments, I really wouldn't care, let "Snipers" continue to perform in addition to Bards, not really a big deal. Wouldn't make much sense, but would seem a bit lame to take it away from people who specifically leveled it to perform.

I think for me this is a symptom of a greater issue in the game, where everything has to be rigidly defined as DPS, tank or healer, and the absolute fear the team apparently has of letting anything be too unique, lest it be "required," which seems like a poor reason (again, to me) to sort of hinder the overall design of the game.

I think about how they had to literally carve off a part of the game to let BLU even sort of function as a bootleg job, and I worry that we'll see similar issues (or just more homogenization) for future jobs we may or may not get, like Beastmaster, Time Mage, Puppeteer, that kind of thing.

Personally I think it'd be neat if they just, I dunno, either swapped the DPS role to a support role or, heaven forfend, added an additional slot to dungeons for another person, that person being support.

One of my bigger fears overall is that any new classes we get will just feel the same but with a unique job gauge or a single mechanic to differentiate them, rather than feeling like an entirely new experience. I'm sure it certainly keeps the balancing very simple, but I think it sucks some of the soul away from the game.

Balance is both important and good, but it's a beast that if you tame too strongly, will make everything more boring and less interesting. Having totally unique classes is, to me, far more important than whether something might "break" a savage raid or what-have-you.

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

Would it make more sense, at this point, to simply make the advanced form of Archer a Sniper, and make the Bard its own proper Bard-like class?

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Maybe, but it's not something I believe we can expect.

It would be neat if they did have the two separated, but I think we are too far down the rabbit hole to have that happen. The best I can think of, is there being a new job called Sniper added, but not sure what they could use as a weapon since Bows are already used...maybe a crossbow instead since those aren't used. Or make a Minstrel class that is 90% support - more healer style than DPS I guess, and uses a harp or lute as their weapon.

I'd like that to be honest. Just like I'd like Machinist to focus on machines and a new gunner/corsair job to focus on guns...
But yeah, I don't expect it to happen.

I don't see this as likely. They'd have to untangle the story/lore they've already established on top of restructuring combat around a whole new role type. This far into the game's life, that's an awful lot of work.

Engineering sniper? Sign me up!!!

They could make a Crossbow job "Hunter" or "Ranger" in the future. There's precedent for this type of job in the FF universe, typically employing traps/snares/special arrows and sometimes a falcon or other forest pets. But the problem is a few BRD skills kind of incorporate these, e.g. Nature's Minne/Wanderer Minuet/Barrage

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Originally Posted by Avatre

It would be neat if they did have the two separated, but I think we are too far down the rabbit hole to have that happen. The best I can think of, is there being a new job called Sniper added, but not sure what they could use as a weapon since Bows are already used...maybe a crossbow instead since those aren't used. Or make a Minstrel class that is 90% support - more healer style than DPS I guess, and uses a harp or lute as their weapon.

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Are we too far down the rabbit hole? It kind of seems like the opposite to me. Like the Bard part of the class is slowly being bled out to focus on the archery. For the storyline, definitely, but as far as mechanics and design, it doesn't really strike me as very Bard-y at all anymore.

It's because BRD in 2.0 had to sacrifice DPS to replenish resources for MP/TP regen for the party. These were slowly phased out. Then they decided casting songs no longer made sense since that's time spent no longer DPSing. Since this isn't a game with Support Classes, they reworked the songs to just be "stances" that confer a slight boost to raid DPS. They cannot make BRD a true support job as it was in other games because that's not a role that exists.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

It's because BRD in 2.0 had to sacrifice DPS to replenish resources for MP/TP regen for the party. These were slowly phased out. Then they decided casting songs no longer made sense since that's time spent no longer DPSing. Since this isn't a game with Support Classes, they reworked the songs to just be "stances" that confer a slight boost to raid DPS. They cannot make BRD a true support job as it was in other games because that's not a role that exists.

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Yeah but what if it was? New jobs are neat, but new roles? I find the even more exciting! Especially since so many of the classes are starting to feel very samey. I was kind of excited to give Gunbreaker a shot, my mistake was switching to it from a Paladin, and immediately recognizing a huge portion of my toolkit with a slightly different flavor. Like I said, they change a mechanic or two and give you a unique bar, but it doesn't feel the same as each class feeling wildly different.

Im already predicting beastmaster as ranged limited. Unless they add a whole support role I don't see a bard sniper split. And I absolutely do not use them ever see them doing that. It might just end with that as 4 for each type.

I don't see how a support role could be less homogenized than the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

Im already predicting beastmaster as ranged limited. Unless they add a whole support role I don't see a bard sniper split. And I absolutely do not use them ever see them doing that. It might just end with that as 4 for each type.

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I hold onto some vague hope, I guess, since Yoshi-P occasionally talks about not wanting new content to get too predictable, and them really liking the ability to surprise players. Of course, that's a mile and a half away from a specific hope like "boy more roles sure would be nice," but I think it would be a logical and very interesting way to expand the gameplay systems without having to turn everything on its head. I'll keep this dream in my back pocket alongside a generally lower GCD and a dramatically higher tick rate. I'm not expecting it, but I can hope, can't I?

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

Are we too far down the rabbit hole? It kind of seems like the opposite to me. Like the Bard part of the class is slowly being bled out to focus on the archery. For the storyline, definitely, but as far as mechanics and design, it doesn't really strike me as very Bard-y at all anymore.

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Splitting Bard now would necessitate revamping the entire lore surrounding the job. They subsequently have to redesign the entire job while designing a brand new one. Simply put, it would require far too much work. Furthermore, Bard cannot function in this game the way it typically has in other FF titles. We don't have a dedicated support role, thus it has to contribute damage. Unless they opted to make new Bard a healer, which it has never been in any iteration, they'll need to deal damage.

I don't disagree that they have drained out far too much of the Bard gameplay aspects this expansion but Stormblood merged them to near perfection. The issue isn't Bard vs. Ranger but the dev team "fixing" what was never broken in the first place out of some strange belief they can't have two support Range jobs.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Splitting Bard now would necessitate revamping the entire lore surrounding the job.

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I understand the rest of what you said, so I'm not ignoring it, I just... am I the only one who doesn't think it would be some huge undertaking to revamp the "lore" of like 17 job quests that are mostly some text followed by walking to a place and killing a thing or clicking on a thing? I get that it's not nothing, but really, the "lore" doesn't amount to much when you zoom out a bit. It's not like the job quests were ever action packed endeavors filled with huge unique art assets and high quality voice acting.

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

I understand the rest of what you said, so I'm not ignoring it, I just... am I the only one who doesn't think it would be some huge undertaking to revamp the "lore" of like 17 job quests that are mostly some text followed by walking to a place and killing a thing or clicking on a thing? I get that it's not nothing, but really, the "lore" doesn't amount to much when you zoom out a bit. It's not like the job quests were ever action packed endeavors filled with huge unique art assets and high quality voice acting.

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I think you are severely underestimating the amount of time and resources that would entail. We can't even have simple things taken care of, let alone something like that.

Why should it impact the lore? Didn't they remove abilities from a lot of jobs already without impacting much of the lore and simply by changing a couple job quests to use an action instead of another?
Why should it be different if they change how bard works?

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

I understand the rest of what you said, so I'm not ignoring it, I just... am I the only one who doesn't think it would be some huge undertaking to revamp the "lore" of like 17 job quests that are mostly some text followed by walking to a place and killing a thing or clicking on a thing? I get that it's not nothing, but really, the "lore" doesn't amount to much when you zoom out a bit. It's not like the job quests were ever action packed endeavors filled with huge unique art assets and high quality voice acting.

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sounds like you don't think writing is "real work"

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

I understand the rest of what you said, so I'm not ignoring it, I just... am I the only one who doesn't think it would be some huge undertaking to revamp the "lore" of like 17 job quests that are mostly some text followed by walking to a place and killing a thing or clicking on a thing? I get that it's not nothing, but really, the "lore" doesn't amount to much when you zoom out a bit. It's not like the job quests were ever action packed endeavors filled with huge unique art assets and high quality voice acting.

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You're severely underestimating the amount of work that goes into job quests. Not only do they have to rewrite a sizeable portion of both Archer and Bard but need to essentially change every reference the game ever makes since the hypothetical "New Bard" can't have any connection to what is now "Sniper/Ranger". Subsequently, they now have to re-animate all those cut scenes, battles and etc. All of this before having to then create entirely new lore for what is effectively two new jobs. Current Bard may be Bard in name only, but the job's core mechanic are still songs—songs it no longer has. Therefore, they need a new "gimmick." If you believe this "doesn't amount to much," let me put it this way. Ultimate is primarily reused animations and mechanics yet it still takes them three months (or more) to design it.

And they could do all this only to be met with massive scorn from the playerbase who liked Bard as is (or past iterations of it). Simply put, it's a massive amount of work for very little gain. They are far better off designing new jobs from the ground up.

The lore isn't a matter of "how the quests are structured" or "how abilities tie into the quests". The lore is how Gridania's archers have a history of plucking their bowstrings and sing songs on the battlefield to inspire their friends and comrades. The 50+ questline is about a captain in the grand company trying to revive this tradition and start a warsong unit in the Twin Adders, and the Gods' Quiver lends him one of their delinquent archers with the intent of foiling a plan he sees as fruitless, etc. There's multiple bow weapons designed with the intent of being half-harp.

Looking at just writing alone: If they remove the bow from the bard, what does this do to the story and history of the world? Moving onward and retroactively? That's text and code to change, that's localization for multiple languages. And then that's QAing to make sure everything flows correctly and nothing is busted.

Now, what does it do in combat? Is it like FF11's bard, where in group situations it just runs around and casts multiple songs without pulling out any weapon? How does it play? How do they fit this into the current system? If it doesn't offer prominent support, players won't want to use it. If it's too prominent, players won't want to go without it. Are we keeping existing abilities? We're essentially making two jobs here, that's new animations, that's new weapons to model, etc. And again, this all has to be QA'd and tested.

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Originally Posted by Qurho

The lore is how Gridania's archers have a history of plucking their bowstrings and sing songs on the battlefield to inspire their friends and comrades.

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Yeah, it's a shame they don't really do that anymore. Doesn't seem to be affecting the lore very much.

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

Yeah, it's a shame they don't really do that anymore. Doesn't seem to be affecting the lore very much.

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Except they still do.

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

Yeah, it's a shame they don't really do that anymore. Doesn't seem to be affecting the lore very much.

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They... do though? Like, the point of the questlines is the WoL helping and being witness to this revival. Jehantel mentions training new recruits in the archers guild in the ways of song. The expedition is a success and there is an established bard unit in the Twin Adders by the end of the questline, that is even awarded for keeping morale up in Ghimlyt.

Gameplay wise, you're still singing songs on the battlefield, too.

No I don't agree.
I don't think there's enough substance to have a job that just shoots arrows, or conversely with all the complaints about MCH having too many 'machines', for a job that just shoots a gun either.
Both jobs are built around a dual paradigm, shooting and machines or shooting and songs.

Imagine if Dragoon didn't have anything to do with dragons and just stabbed things with a spear, or Dark Knight didn't have any dark magic, just a job that swings a greatsword. You're asking for base classes, not a fully fleshed out job fantasy.

As for it not having enough support, that's entirely a balancing issue. With more support comes less personal DPS, and we now have DNC at the extreme end of that, any more support or less personal damage wouldn't be feasible, not least because all of these party buffs have to be able to work while stacking with each other. The more support jobs we have, the weaker their individual support becomes.

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Originally Posted by Qurho

The lore isn't a matter of "how the quests are structured" or "how abilities tie into the quests". The lore is how Gridania's archers have a history of plucking their bowstrings and sing songs on the battlefield to inspire their friends and comrades. The 50+ questline is about a captain in the grand company trying to revive this tradition and start a warsong unit in the Twin Adders, and the Gods' Quiver lends him one of their delinquent archers with the intent of foiling a plan he sees as fruitless, etc. There's multiple bow weapons designed with the intent of being half-harp.

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True. But why should they actually change that part of the lore?
Wouldn't it be fine if the bard remained an 'archer/bard' until level 80, and then for the 80+ job quests to be about dropping the bow to focus more on actual bard abilities?
They could make it a progressive change over the next few expansions...

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

No I don't agree.
I don't think there's enough substance to have a job that just shoots arrows, or conversely with all the complaints about MCH having too many 'machines', for a job that just shoots a gun either.
Both jobs are built around a dual paradigm, shooting and machines or shooting and songs.

Imagine if Dragoon didn't have anything to do with dragons and just stabbed things with a spear, or Dark Knight didn't have any dark magic, just a job that swings a greatsword. You're asking for base classes, not a fully fleshed out job fantasy.

As for it not having enough support, that's entirely a balancing issue. With more support comes less personal DPS, and we now have DNC at the extreme end of that, any more support or less personal damage wouldn't be feasible, not least because all of these party buffs have to be able to work while stacking with each other. The more support jobs we have, the weaker their individual support becomes.

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Ah yes, because if you basically left Bard as it is now except stopped pretending their songs are in any way bard-related and just called them something else, it'd be sooooo different. They're already just an archer. The bard portion of the class, despite the class being named bard and not archer, is so minimal it's like someone slapped a "bard" badge on an archer and called it a day. It's bard-lite, it's bard-adjacent. It's an archer cosplaying as a bard. But it's not a bard, and the elements of bard that are there are completely insubstantial and I can't believe I have to actually explain this to another human.

As for the other replies, it is pretty typical of how official game forums go, though. "Hey, I think this would be a good change and make more sense." "No, that could never happen. It would be lots of hard work. Ergo, unreasonable request. Also, we're waiting on them to do X, so clearly they can't do Y." Same goddamn conversation I've had on every MMO forum since the dawn of time. To be quite frank, I don't give a shit how much work it is, I think it sucks right now, and I think the soul of the game is being drained away as they go from the hardworking team that rebuilt the worst MMO ever to the team that apparently needs coddling anytime someone suggests something approaching work outside the typical patch/expansion flow we've seen. It's on them to determine what is too much work. Not me, not you. If they decide things like this aren't worth their time, that's fine, but I don't care what random forumgoers think is too much work. If you don't like the idea, that's great, but I find the "hard work" deflection so tedious.

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

To be quite frank, I don't give a shit how much work it is, I think it sucks right now, and I think the soul of the game is being drained away as they go from the hardworking team that rebuilt the worst MMO ever to the team that apparently needs coddling anytime someone suggests something approaching work outside the typical patch/expansion flow we've seen. It's on them to determine what is too much work. Not me, not you. If they decide things like this aren't worth their time, that's fine, but I don't care what random forumgoers think is too much work. If you don't like the idea, that's great, but I find the "hard work" deflection so tedious.

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Unfortunately for you, the game, the developers, and the community don't exist to give specifically you what you want. And if you don't care what people on the forums think, maybe posting on the forums wasn't your best idea.

Just to point this out, since some people might not be aware, a Bard using a bow as a weapon is nothing new in the fantasy genre. Plenty of games/stories have had Bards us other weapons besides musical instruments, and typically it's a bow because of it's "dual use".

In regards to Bards support, many players agree that the 4.0 changes did Bard wonders as they felt like a Bard, but had the strength behind them people wanted. Unfortunately, with 5.0 and the Devs wanting Dancer to be the most supportive, Bard suffered some even though their playstyle didn't change all that much. The main difference is that Bards doesn't "benefit" from their songs the way Dancers do from their dances. This does makes sense for a few skills, since the song buff for Bard is meant to be the repertoire effect. But it can feel underwhelming at times. The solution isn't so much to fix Bard so that their support "is" more impactful, but so that it "feels" more impactful.

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

As for the other replies, it is pretty typical of how official game forums go, though. "Hey, I think this would be a good change and make more sense." "No, that could never happen. It would be lots of hard work. Ergo, unreasonable request

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If you can't handle other peoples' opinions on a public forum I would avoid posting then. When I hop onto the forums, I don't come here expecting everyone to agree with what I have to say. I just say what I think. Some may agree with it, others may disagree. Things might even get a little heated! But at the end of the day...no hard feelings regardless of the outcome. Life's too short for that.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

True. But why should they actually change that part of the lore?
Wouldn't it be fine if the bard remained an 'archer/bard' until level 80, and then for the 80+ job quests to be about dropping the bow to focus more on actual bard abilities?
They could make it a progressive change over the next few expansions...

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I mean, the premise of the thread is if Bard should be split into a proper support and another ranged class. If that were the case, I'm not sure how this would be implemented without some hitches. Do you suddenly just lose your offensive toolkit on hitting 80+?

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Originally Posted by Eloah

In regards to Bards support, many players agree that the 4.0 changes did Bard wonders as they felt like a Bard, but had the strength behind them people wanted. Unfortunately, with 5.0 and the Devs wanting Dancer to be the most supportive, Bard suffered some even though their playstyle didn't change all that much. The main difference is that Bards doesn't "benefit" from their songs the way Dancers do from their dances. This does makes sense for a few skills, since the song buff for Bard is meant to be the repertoire effect. But it can feel underwhelming at times. The solution isn't so much to fix Bard so that their support "is" more impactful, but so that it "feels" more impactful.

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This is a good point though, it's easy to forget that they'd originally removed all the party buffs from Bard's song rotation at the start of 5.0 to shuffle all that supportive ability on to Dancer, before adding some of that back when folks complained. I don't mind where Bard currently is, but I do agree that it definitely feels underwhelming compared to where it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

Ah yes, because if you basically left Bard as it is now except stopped pretending their songs are in any way bard-related and just called them something else, it'd be sooooo different. They're already just an archer. The bard portion of the class, despite the class being named bard and not archer, is so minimal it's like someone slapped a "bard" badge on an archer and called it a day. It's bard-lite, it's bard-adjacent. It's an archer cosplaying as a bard. But it's not a bard, and the elements of bard that are there are completely insubstantial and I can't believe I have to actually explain this to another human.

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As I said previously. I don't entirely disagree. Bard has lost its identity in Shadowbringers. You'll be hard-pressed to find Bard (or former Bard) mains who don't agree to some degree. The solution, however, isn't to tear the job apart and create two hollow alternatives but to look back on why the job once reigned as the most popular DPS in the game. Stormblood Bard was immensely popular, thus players didn't have an issue with the Archer/Ranger aspects prior. In fact, they obviously liked the hybrid nature.

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Originally Posted by Xbob42

As for the other replies, it is pretty typical of how official game forums go, though. "Hey, I think this would be a good change and make more sense." "No, that could never happen. It would be lots of hard work. Ergo, unreasonable request. Also, we're waiting on them to do X, so clearly they can't do Y." Same goddamn conversation I've had on every MMO forum since the dawn of time. To be quite frank, I don't give a shit how much work it is, I think it sucks right now, and I think the soul of the game is being drained away as they go from the hardworking team that rebuilt the worst MMO ever to the team that apparently needs coddling anytime someone suggests something approaching work outside the typical patch/expansion flow we've seen. It's on them to determine what is too much work. Not me, not you. If they decide things like this aren't worth their time, that's fine, but I don't care what random forumgoers think is too much work. If you don't like the idea, that's great, but I find the "hard work" deflection so tedious.

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Now you're just being childish. Several people, myself included, have provided legitimate and logical reasons why splitting any job like you've requested simply will not happen. We know they aren't going to do it since they're outright said how much they dislike branching jobs off, and would prefer to create a new job instead. Handwaving any opposing argument simply shows you weren't willing to have a conversation. At least not one where people disagree with you. Simply put, you're entitled to have your preferences and ideas you think work best. We're equally entitled to dislike them.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

Why should it impact the lore? Didn't they remove abilities from a lot of jobs already without impacting much of the lore and simply by changing a couple job quests to use an action instead of another?
Why should it be different if they change how bard works?

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Changing the abilities rewarded in a quest is one thing—though it can cause issues if the quest mentions the ability you’re about to learn, like some jobs do. However, completely re-writing Archer becoming a Bard is another. They would effectively doing a huge retcon, since the lore in the BRD quests mentions multiple times that a lot of archers become bards after their time on the front lines is over. This is saying nothing about the lore present in the Encyclopedia Eorzea series that would also have to be retconned. That is a lot of rewriting and a lot of developer work that could be better spent elsewhere in the game.

It would be far simpler to add Ranger/Sniper/whatever as a new job in 6.0 rather than rewrite ARC/BRD lore that has existed for years. (Keep in mind that ARC became BRD back in 1.0 after they added in jobs to the classes, so we’re looking at something that predated the current game’s lifespan.)