QoL change with tank stance.

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12-30-2020, 08:14 AM
Kewitt

QoL change with tank stance.

It should be reversed.

Seeing how basically the only time a tank should have a tank stance on. Is while in raid content?

Seeing as this is the case. I don't know how many times I've had to tell tanks to turn it on.

Where has if it was on by default like some of the DoL ability I think it would be very helpful. You would have to actively turn it off.
12-30-2020, 08:53 AM
Ammokkx

I'm like 99% sure the reason stances get turned off on sync has something to do with spaghetti code rather than an intentional dev choice.

Every kind of buff gets removed from your character when you level sync. Go kill a mob as SAM and then do a FATE that syncs you down- you'll lose your Kenki and your Sen, for example. Tank Stance is most likely coded in a similar way.

Mostly has to do with how level sync works. Don't know how hard or easy it would be to get around that part.
12-30-2020, 08:56 AM
Puremallace

Bozdja?!?! Eureka?!?!? Hunt trains?!?!? Fates?!?!

Lots of good reasons to use it outside of a raid. I do agree it is annoying in instances and there should be a menu option to auto enable it. Only reason it would apply only to dungeons is because tanks use it to reduce and increase aggro in raids to do quicker tank swaps.
12-30-2020, 08:57 AM
Vahlnir

My problem isn't usually getting others to turn theirs on, it's getting them to turn them off. lol On more than one occasion I have zoned into a trial or raid, seen the other tank did not have their stance active and turned mine on. I would then start a countdown and OH WAIT, THE OTHER TANK WANTS TO TANK NOW! They turn theirs on and just...rush in. But you go, you totally awesome tank who had to be first! One of my biggest pet peeves right there. It isn't a contest. It's supposed to be teamwork.
12-30-2020, 09:32 AM
Tint

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

My problem isn't usually getting others to turn theirs on, it's getting them to turn them off. lol On more than one occasion I have zoned into a trial or raid, seen the other tank did not have their stance active and turned mine on. I would then start a countdown and OH WAIT, THE OTHER TANK WANTS TO TANK NOW! They turn theirs on and just...rush in. But you go, you totally awesome tank who had to be first! One of my biggest pet peeves right there. It isn't a contest. It's supposed to be teamwork.

Yes, this is the far bigger problem. Since ShB release, when the damage penalty was removed from the stances, all the tanks are running around with the stance active all the time. It is quite annoying in alliance raids and trials...
12-30-2020, 10:14 AM
Vahlnir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tint

Yes, this is the far bigger problem. Since ShB release, when the damage penalty was removed from the stances, all the tanks are running around with the stance active all the time. It is quite annoying in alliance raids and trials...

Just speaking from personal experience. Never said it was a far bigger problem.
12-30-2020, 10:47 AM
Gokuhan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kewitt

I don't know how many times I've had to tell tanks to turn it on.

I constantly see tanks turning it on, leaving it on, and competing for aggro. The system is fine as-is. It's not a system failure, it's a player failure.
12-30-2020, 10:59 AM
WhiteArchmage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

My problem isn't usually getting others to turn theirs on, it's getting them to turn them off. lol On more than one occasion I have zoned into a trial or raid, seen the other tank did not have their stance active and turned mine on. I would then start a countdown and OH WAIT, THE OTHER TANK WANTS TO TANK NOW! They turn theirs on and just...rush in. But you go, you totally awesome tank who had to be first! One of my biggest pet peeves right there. It isn't a contest. It's supposed to be teamwork.

Ugh, this was the worst when levelling tank. Go in duty, no one turns it on, I use it, do countdown and everything, suddenly my tank buddy decides he actually wants to tank!
12-30-2020, 11:07 AM
Vahlnir

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Ugh, this was the worst when levelling tank. Go in duty, no one turns it on, I use it, do countdown and everything, suddenly my tank buddy decides he actually wants to tank!

And then you stare at each other awkwardly, one waiting for the other to make the first move. Then you take yours off, and they still do nothing. It is only when you start to do anything at all that they sprint toward the boss. I don't think some people realize that "main tank" and "off tank" are a thing. Only one tank needs the stance active unless there are...issues. Sadly, half the tanks I run into haven't gotten that memo.
12-30-2020, 12:43 PM
Jojoya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

And then you stare at each other awkwardly, one waiting for the other to make the first move. Then you take yours off, and they still do nothing. It is only when you start to do anything at all that they sprint toward the boss. I don't think some people realize that "main tank" and "off tank" are a thing. Only one tank needs the stance active unless there are...issues. Sadly, half the tanks I run into haven't gotten that memo.

And it's because of "issues" that both tanks should have their stance on.

First time into SoS on one of my alts (it had been out for over 2 months at that point) and I ended up MT even though I had asked the other tank to take MT since I had never tanked it on my other characters. He never replied, didn't turn his stance on. After waiting more than enough time for him to respond, I went ahead and pulled the boss.

At about 25%, I got a 90002 error and DC'd. Took me a minute to get logged in and back to the instance. The other tank had finally turned his stance on while I was DC'd but evidently hadn't thought to Provoke so he still wasn't at the top of the enmity table. DPS had been dying one by one and the boss had just turned to one of the healers. As soon as I was loaded and realized he was not in control of the boss, I Provoked and the healers were able to get the rest of the party back up. (Welcome to why I hate only being able to comm one player per instance - both those healers deserved it.)

If he had had his stance on from the start, it wouldn't have made a difference how bad a tank he was. The boss still would have stuck to him like glue the moment I DC'd instead of going after the DPS.

It is not hard to manage enmity when you need to. We can toggle stance off for a few GCDs to let the other tank get a comfy lead. We do have Shirk. If the other tank is still having trouble staying on top of the enmity table, they probably shouldn't be MT.

Obviously, enmity is more difficult to handle in an Alliance raid but there's still no reason to leave stance always off as OT. If it's always off, then you might as well just come as a DPS.
12-30-2020, 01:31 PM
Vahlnir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jojoya

And it's because of "issues" that both tanks should have their stance on.

First time into SoS on one of my alts (it had been out for over 2 months at that point) and I ended up MT even though I had asked the other tank to take MT since I had never tanked it on my other characters. He never replied, didn't turn his stance on. After waiting more than enough time for him to respond, I went ahead and pulled the boss.

At about 25%, I got a 90002 error and DC'd. Took me a minute to get logged in and back to the instance. The other tank had finally turned his stance on while I was DC'd but evidently hadn't thought to Provoke so he still wasn't at the top of the enmity table. DPS had been dying one by one and the boss had just turned to one of the healers. As soon as I was loaded and realized he was not in control of the boss, I Provoked and the healers were able to get the rest of the party back up. (Welcome to why I hate only being able to comm one player per instance - both those healers deserved it.)

If he had had his stance on from the start, it wouldn't have made a difference how bad a tank he was. The boss still would have stuck to him like glue the moment I DC'd instead of going after the DPS.

It is not hard to manage enmity when you need to. We can toggle stance off for a few GCDs to let the other tank get a comfy lead. We do have Shirk. If the other tank is still having trouble staying on top of the enmity table, they probably shouldn't be MT.

Obviously, enmity is more difficult to handle in an Alliance raid but there's still no reason to leave stance always off as OT. If it's always off, then you might as well just come as a DPS.

One tank should have it on, the other should have it off. This is the way.

However, the right way to go about it is something you brought up, and that is for the OT to keep it off while the MT establishes plenty of aggro. Then, every so often, the OT should turn it on periodically to generate some themselves, and then turn it back off again, just in case something happens. Doing it like this is a win for everyone should things start to go downhill quickly. And it avoids any unnecessary confusion/tension at the start. Personally, I'm confident enough to be able to hold my own, but I like doing things the optimal way without conflict.

Perhaps some communication would help at times, but not always. It is, at least in my experience, a silent acknowledgement of who is the MT and OT when one tank turns their stance on and the other either turns theirs off or avoids turning it on at all. When that doesn't occur, there is a bit of a standoff. If my co tank enters the instance, immediately does a ready check and/or countdown, it is also a safe assumption that they plan to take the lead. I have no issue standing down. But I also like knowing what my co tank has planned and, sadly, it is a common enough occurrence that I enter any instance requiring 2 tanks warily.
12-30-2020, 02:15 PM
Garnix

Enmity management isn't really a thing anymore anyways.
So, at this point I think they could just increase the enmity generated by tanks when the stance is off. This way, even if you forget it, you'd still be the one generating the most enmity.
The stance would then just allow the MT to generate more enmity than the OT.
12-30-2020, 02:19 PM
Vahlnir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garnix

Enmity management isn't really a thing anymore anyways.
So, at this point I think they could just increase the enmity generated by tanks when the stance is off. This way, even if you forget it, you'd still be the one generating the most enmity.
The stance would then just allow the MT to generate more enmity than the OT.

I'm not a huge fan of more simplification, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were going to head in this direction regardless.
12-30-2020, 06:12 PM
Seraphor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

One tank should have it on, the other should have it off. This is the way.

Nah, as OT you want to make sure you're second in enmity. You're not just there to be a weaker DPS, you need to be ready to pick up aggro when they mess up.
Turn your tank stance on after your opener and leave it on for the rest of the fight. You shouldn't have to worry about stealing aggro unless the MT is really undergeared, and even then, you'll just have to use shirk once in a while.
12-30-2020, 08:26 PM
Rongway

The 10x enmity generation should be baked into Tank Mastery. Instead of getting a tank stance action at Lv10, they should just get

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lv10 Trait: Tank Mastery II

Significantly increases enmity generation.

which permanently increases enmity generation by a factor of 10x.

Then at Lv50, which is the earliest any tank should ever need to turn it off, along with their cheese button they should also get an enmity suppressing stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lv50 Action: Tempered Will / Self-restraint / Silent Night / Occultation

Significantly decreases enmity generation. Effect ends upon reuse.

which reduces enmity generation to 1/10, returning it to the universal baseline.
12-31-2020, 01:46 AM
Kewitt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garnix

Enmity management isn't really a thing anymore anyways.
So, at this point I think they could just increase the enmity generated by tanks when the stance is off. This way, even if you forget it, you'd still be the one generating the most enmity.
The stance would then just allow the MT to generate more enmity than the OT.

This would be a way better option really.
I have no issues keeping it on while doing Raid content, I have no issue if the other tank wants to main tank, I can give them my enmity.
When I off tank, I make sure I'm 2nd in the enmity list that way if the MT dies, I don't have to remember to provoke or have someone else die before I do seen this a few times in normal 8 person content. So I do my normal opener without the stance off, put it on build my hate turn it off again.
But I've done DR expert enough times in the last week where the tank has totally forgotten to have it up more often than not for the 1st pull.

Making Enmity generation a little higher for tanks so normal combo will set them 5-10% above every other class and stance gives them a lead over other tank classes would solve basically all of these issues. You still have provoke for when you die and want to jump up in the list.