Are all BTN stupid or is it just on my server?

How do you go from selling something for 8k to 500g in less than 12 hours when crafters are still selling their items for a million? What is the point of you gathering all this stuff to sell it for 500g? Why don’t you just do a roulette?

This applies to everything basically. Stupid people ruin stuff

Definitely not a BTN only thing. The geniuses who undercut each other in steps of 10-500k have already managed to drive the prices of Exarchic gear down to 1.2mil-900k and some pieces even less.


Good thing I didn't even try to sell any of it this time, you're only ever going to be disappointed.

I was wondering the same regarding prices of some of the exarchic items yesterday. On a couple items there was several listings for around 2.5 million, and one or two sales at that price as well. Then someone listed those items for 1.6 million. Can't fathom why they would undercut by that much. The usual seems to be around 10-50k which I find reasonable for this stage; there wasn't that many crafters selling things yesterday and I think many of them were focusing on crafting rather than constantly updating prices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Definitely not a BTN only thing. The geniuses who undercut each other in steps of 10-500k have already managed to drive the prices of Exarchic gear down to 1.2mil-900k and some pieces even less.


Good thing I didn't even try to sell any of it this time, you're only ever going to be disappointed.

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Aiming chest is under 500k on Cerberus already. But they probably still make a profit because BTN are selling things for 500G :-/

They're Botanists

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

They're Botanists

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just +1. I like what you did there.

Honestly FFXIV economy is beyond my understanding. Like a few days before the patch i was like "let's make some quick gil" and sold 200 Savage Aim VIII materia for 21k gil each for a total of 4mil in a day. Now after the patch dropped, they price for the same materia is below 10k and i am like wut? I understand people want to undercut, but that's beyond ridiculous.

supply & demand

If there is a ton of supply and everyone wants to sell stock, prices are going to plummet. Economics isn't some kind of fair game, idk how this community can't grasp its head around that.

Also, yes, bots. This isn't anyone being stupid, it's just a market crash. That happens.

(also lmao to anyone who ever complains about undercutting. Start playing smarter, not greedier.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

(also lmao to anyone who ever complains about undercutting. Start playing smarter, not greedier.)

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Ah yes, because selling an item for a quarter of what you could've gotten is playing smart /s


I do agree on the supply and demand however, with the changes to crafting and gathering in ShB there is a significantly higher supply than there is demand.

With the way gathering works the market is destined to become oversaturated.

If you don't like the price you can alway trying buying it up and flipping it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

If there is a ton of supply and everyone wants to sell stock, prices are going to plummet. Economics isn't some kind of fair game, idk how this community can't grasp its head around that.

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While this is true in principle, there are some pretty crucial differences between video game and real world economies which make them behave differently. Video game economies tend to be much more volatile and unpredictable.

The scale of things is very small. There aren't that many endgame crafters on each server, and some of them will gather their own materials. The market for endgame gear on patch day isn't exactly huge either. A small economy dealing in highly valuable items means the supply and demand is going to be very spiky, which destabilizes prices. In the real world any non-niche product is likely to have millions of customers, resulting in a much more steady flow and more stable prices.

The cost of entry is very low or nonexistent - for materials you can literally just go out and gather the stuff quickly and in decent quantities. There's no need to invest in any kind of production infrastructure, and the investments you can make (better gear, expensive overmelds) result in only a small increase in productivity. In the real world you could go into the forest and pick some berries, but someone who has the capital to set up a farm will outproduce you 100x or more. The consequence of this is that in a video game it's easier for someone without a clue to disrupt the market.

Players don't have to make a living inside the game. Video game characters do not have running costs like food or rent, so players are not incentivized to put any value on their time. In the real world you have to consider that if you can do a thing X hours per month, you have to get at least Y money per hour to pay your bills. If you run a factory there will be many more things to consider if you want to make a profit. Someone who also doesn't have to make a living in the real world (unemployed on welfare, underage on summer vacation) is able to put all their efforts towards manipulating the video game economy if they so wish.

A large portion of the people on the market don't have a grasp of economy. They're not familiar with things like opportunity cost. If you use some amount of materials to craft an item, you lose the opportunity to sell those materials. It's common to see items being sold for less than the price of their component materials, because people don't bother to do market research. This does happen in the real world but there's usually a catch, like video game consoles being sold at a loss because the profits are made from the games. Or a clearance sale for an old product. If someone actually sells their main product at a loss they'll be out of business very soon.

Items can appear out of nothing. This is hardly a concern with endgame crafted gear, but retainers bring back all sorts of older items from ventures. In this case there's practically no opportunity cost involved in obtaining those items (the venture currency is basically free because you get so many GC seals from turning in all the dungeon trash loot), so players are inclined to just get rid of the items fast, without doing market research. This obviously does not happen in the real world.

Market tools in most games are inadequate. This actually warrants several sub-items.

There's limited or no market history. FFXIV is already ahead of many by showing a history of sold items. But that history is very short, often too short to reveal any significant trends. The spiky nature of the market I mentioned above combined with short history means that you may see a local trend from someone having just bought out half the supply and prices have gone up, but a longer history or a graph could reveal that this kind of surge will be followed by a period of little or no sales and the prices will crash again.

There's no way to buy partial stacks of items or set up flexible pricing. In many cases a crafter who needs only a few items is forced to pay for a large amount of extra items because there's no listings with a suitable stack size. Gatherers have to either put a lot of work (and market slots) into splitting stacks, or sell large stacks which take longer to sell and may yield less gil per item.

There's no way to place buy orders. A crafter who regularly crafts items can't announce "I'm willing to pay X gil for material Y, up to Z units". This is another thing which could stabilize a spiky market; the buy orders provide a lower limit for prices and allow buyers to compete with offers as well as sellers.

In the real world all these are possible. The only video game I've seen to implement them so far is EVE Online.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tdb

Market tools in most games are inadequate. This actually warrants several sub-items.

There's limited or no market history. FFXIV is already ahead of many by showing a history of sold items. But that history is very short, often too short to reveal any significant trends. The spiky nature of the market I mentioned above combined with short history means that you may see a local trend from someone having just bought out half the supply and prices have gone up, but a longer history or a graph could reveal that this kind of surge will be followed by a period of little or no sales and the prices will crash again.

There's no way to buy partial stacks of items or set up flexible pricing. In many cases a crafter who needs only a few items is forced to pay for a large amount of extra items because there's no listings with a suitable stack size. Gatherers have to either put a lot of work (and market slots) into splitting stacks, or sell large stacks which take longer to sell and may yield less gil per item.

There's no way to place buy orders. A crafter who regularly crafts items can't announce "I'm willing to pay X gil for material Y, up to Z units". This is another thing which could stabilize a spiky market; the buy orders provide a lower limit for prices and allow buyers to compete with offers as well as sellers.

In the real world all these are possible. The only video game I've seen to implement them so far is EVE Online.

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RIFT has many of those. I don't recall buy orders, but you can buy partial stacks and all kinds of market analysis.

There is also no competition for nodes. Everything is there for everyone and getting rare items is usually just a matter of knowing when and where.

I do this as a crafter, I’ll take over an entire market section. First I start by crafting 40 items of what ever is selling the fastest. The. I start my listing 1000 Gil to 10k Gil under the last listed item. Then I go all the way down to about 1000 Gil. Completely destroying the pricing of that item and making ME the only one you buy the items from.

This kinda how our market works today. The one who has the most supplies and for the cheapest is the one you want. And since I am a crafter and a gatherer, it costs me NO Gil to over run a market. And I have no shame in destroying markets this way either.

Cry harder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

This kinda how our market works today. The one who has the most supplies and for the cheapest is the one you want. And since I am a crafter and a gatherer, it costs me NO Gil to over run a market. And I have no shame in destroying markets this way either.

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Opportunity cost. It may not cost you gil but it costs time, and there might be another thing which would yield more gil in the same time.

I don't care though. I have more in-game money than I'm likely to ever spend so I rarely craft for profit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

supply & demand

If there is a ton of supply and everyone wants to sell stock, prices are going to plummet. Economics isn't some kind of fair game, idk how this community can't grasp its head around that.

Also, yes, bots. This isn't anyone being stupid, it's just a market crash. That happens.

(also lmao to anyone who ever complains about undercutting. Start playing smarter, not greedier.)

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Nope. People were buying them at 8k, 7k, 6k, 5k and 500gil. The items that they make with them haven’t fluctuated in price nearly as much. The economy doesn’t benefit in any way, if anything it gives the BTN less Gil to spend on the crafted items and crashes the economy. These items would eventually settle but could easily settle at 3-4K and the demand would still be there.

But completely crashing it in 12 hours is stupidity. And I have an economics degree before you go on about how economies work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

I do this as a crafter, I’ll take over an entire market section. First I start by crafting 40 items of what ever is selling the fastest. The. I start my listing 1000 Gil to 10k Gil under the last listed item. Then I go all the way down to about 1000 Gil. Completely destroying the pricing of that item and making ME the only one you buy the items from.

This kinda how our market works today. The one who has the most supplies and for the cheapest is the one you want. And since I am a crafter and a gatherer, it costs me NO Gil to over run a market. And I have no shame in destroying markets this way either.

Cry harder.

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That’s an absolutely terrible way to make money though. You’d actually make more selling at the higher price over a longer period of time and you’d be free to do other things to make more money.

Think about it. You spend time out of your life sitting by a market board in a video game when you could be doing far more amazing things with that same time. It’s you who should be crying xD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

I do this as a crafter, I’ll take over an entire market section. First I start by crafting 40 items of what ever is selling the fastest. The. I start my listing 1000 Gil to 10k Gil under the last listed item. Then I go all the way down to about 1000 Gil. Completely destroying the pricing of that item and making ME the only one you buy the items from.

This kinda how our market works today. The one who has the most supplies and for the cheapest is the one you want. And since I am a crafter and a gatherer, it costs me NO Gil to over run a market. And I have no shame in destroying markets this way either.

Cry harder.

---

All I have to do to tank your marketing scheme is set my prices lower than yours. But I don't even have to, because you're doing that yourself. All I really have to do is set the MB price the same as yours, and I can instantly rely on you to undercut it. Then I do it again, and again, and again until you undercut the item so badly that I buy up all your stock and redistribute it while you go out gathering and crafting again. During this time, I place everything YOU just crafted/gathered back on the MB at higher prices, and profit from your greed, or keep the items for myself and profit from your time.

Monopolization doesn't work in the game the same as it does in the real world. Those who do it, or try tend to end up frustrated like the OP. Just like the real world, there is always a bigger fish. Time is also money, so while profit is 100% when you gather and craft yourself, spending that time on an item that is steadily decreasing in price means that you are not making the best use of it.

Well since its possible to lock out any other listing with extra retainers and market bots is it any surprise that the easiest stuff to flip drops like a rock?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vickii

And I have an economics degree before you go on about how economies work.

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If I may impose on you for a bit, I'm kinda curious to hear if what I posted above about video game vs. real world economies makes any sense? I don't have an economics degree so it's mostly my own general experience and deduction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vickii

But completely crashing it in 12 hours is stupidity. And I have an economics degree before you go on about how economies work.

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I said economies aren't some kind of fair game. What matters at the end of the day, for players, is whether or not they have the gil they want out of it. People don't care what the most optimal way to get that is, only that they have it at the end of the day.

Whenever I've got something to sell I undercut for the quick sale and continue to ignore the marketboard until the next thing I can undercut. All I care about is that I get a decent enough chunk of gil out of it for the times I have to spend a quick 100k on one thing or another. I had enough gil to buy someone else a full set of Neo Ishgard armor, on top of the full set I already owned, when the average piece ranged anywhere from 150k to 300k a pop, and that's while barely getting involved into the marketboard economy at all.

Not to mention the fact any gil gained from the MB economy was farmed by other players to begin with. It's a valid way to make money, but not everyone is gonna give much of a damn about stabilizing it when most of us just need enough to get by to do what we need to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

I said economies aren't some kind of fair game. What matters at the end of the day, for players, is whether or not they have the gil they want out of it. People don't care what the most optimal way to get that is, only that they have it at the end of the day.

Whenever I've got something to sell I undercut for the quick sale and continue to ignore the marketboard until the next thing I can undercut. All I care about is that I get a decent enough chunk of gil out of it for the times I have to spend a quick 100k on one thing or another. I had enough gil to buy someone else a full set of Neo Ishgard armor, on top of the full set I already owned, when the average piece ranged anywhere from 150k to 300k a pop, and that's while barely getting involved into the marketboard economy at all.

Not to mention the fact any gil gained from the MB economy was farmed by other players to begin with. It's a valid way to make money, but not everyone is gonna give much of a damn about stabilizing it when most of us just need enough to get by to do what we need to do.

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Oh it’s fine that you don’t want to stabilise the economy. But by undercutting by so much and actively destroying the economy you effectively hurt yourself, hence my saying it was stupid. It is.

Put it this way.... pretend we’re talking about real money here. You have made something that you can sell for £8000. It may sit in your storefront for a few hours but you make £8000 profit. Or you can put it for £50 and the first person to walk past your shop will bite your hand off for you.

This is the situation yesterday. There was no supply and demand issue, just a time it takes to sell issue. So effectively they valued an hour or twos wait as 7,500. It’s stupid, there’s no justification unless they really desperately needed 500 right that moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

This is just how things go. It's not just Botanists either. Everyone is looking to undercut everyone so their item gets sold faster, that, or it's bots doing it automatically. It's beyond me why people don't just mimic the sale price of items on there already to keep things steady, with maybe a dip over time. More money for all! That's just not reality though.

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Undercutting is natural since price is the only thing you can compete with. You can't make your items better than everyone else's, or sell them at a more convenient location. You can't make them in a different design and try to start a brand. The complaint isn't that undercutting is happening, it's that players undercut by absurdly large amounts, like going straight from 2.5 million to 1.6 million. I doubt that's even going to result in a faster sale on patch day, since the people in a hurry to get their gear are probably not hurting for money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Oh it’s fine that you don’t want to stabilise the economy. But by undercutting by so much and actively destroying the economy you effectively hurt yourself, hence my saying it was stupid. It is.

Put it this way.... pretend we’re talking about real money here. You have made something that you can sell for £8000. It may sit in your storefront for a few hours but you make £8000 profit. Or you can put it for £50 and the first person to walk past your shop will bite your hand off for you.

This is the situation yesterday. There was no supply and demand issue, just a time it takes to sell issue. So effectively they valued an hour or twos wait as 7,500. It’s stupid, there’s no justification unless they really desperately needed 500 right that moment.

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Also to add to this, you can literally obtain 70 percent of items on the game, undercut them on the market board to make 500 Gil.

This item is a 3 star item that comes with the highest level requirement, gear requirement and requires you to have grinded for a book to be able to obtain that item. So why are you going to sell it for less profit than a piece of leather you randomly obtain? Makes literally no sense besides the fact that it’s a game, not real money and you don’t really care.

But you’ve put an awful low value on your time and effort to be able to get that item. May as well just keep it and let others do the reading.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tdb

If I may impose on you for a bit, I'm kinda curious to hear if what I posted above about video game vs. real world economies makes any sense? I don't have an economics degree so it's mostly my own general experience and deduction.

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Sure, it’s generally on the money. Real economies have laws on monopolies and things that obviously don’t impact video games. And as it’s not real money and many people don’t see their time as money it’s far more volatile. Time is your only real overhead vs a business having to pay materials, suppliers. A shop keeper may cut their price to match their neighbours but neither of them are going to make it non profitable for themselves because otherwise what’s the point?

For instance take those new housing cabinets you can buy from a housing vendor for 12,000. People bought them and tried to sell them for 1 mill then 20,000 now they’re on the MB for 6,000. The players are making a 6k loss on them if they’re selling them at all. That’s not going to happen much in real life because the sellers will go bust. Perhaps a company will gamble on a product but it will all be acceptable loss planned out ahead of time. Breaking even wouldn’t be uncommon but they’d rarely sell for a loss.

Real businesses also don’t have to worry about bots (although you could argue that China and many third world countries effectively are ‘botting’ with mass production and cheap labour.. but again there’s laws to protect economies against this).

You could certainly have a more realistic economy in an MMO but there would have to be rules because while one player is willing to cut the price in half and other players are willing to sink to his level, it’s always going to shrink.

The reason is... Good crafters Gather their own items. 100% profit.
So they only goto the market boards if they think it's worth their time. 8k well I can teleport for 999 gil spend 5 mins get 40 items... DONE!

Edit,
I have so much gil I can't spend it.
The only thing that is a really gil sink for people who can make gil easily is housing, and there isn't enough of that.

If I try to make gil I shot for 1m/hour.
Which usually is very easy to do.

Also note, It's very easy to gather items vs the time and understanding to HQ new items.

My Hubby loves Gathering. HATE CRAFTING because he just doesn't want to take the time to learn it or he learns it and takes and break and it's overhauled. But he has all but 2 crafts at 80.
He also is very close to 50k HQ items. But he only does low level items.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

I do this as a crafter, I’ll take over an entire market section. First I start by crafting 40 items of what ever is selling the fastest. The. I start my listing 1000 Gil to 10k Gil under the last listed item. Then I go all the way down to about 1000 Gil. Completely destroying the pricing of that item and making ME the only one you buy the items from.

This kinda how our market works today. The one who has the most supplies and for the cheapest is the one you want. And since I am a crafter and a gatherer, it costs me NO Gil to over run a market. And I have no shame in destroying markets this way either.

Cry harder.

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But... why? Not why are you doing it, but why this method? You’re leaving a lot of Gil on the table for no reason doing it like this. It can’t be for the sake of expedience, you claim to only do this for items that sell fast anyway. It can’t even be to monopolize an item, because as a previous poster points out, your method is easily undermined. You would be far better off holding to a higher price point and buying out anyone who undercuts you, relisting their product for a profit. Or at least when you crash the price, buy up everything and resell it for a higher price.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vickii

Also to add to this, you can literally obtain 70 percent of items on the game, undercut them on the market board to make 500 Gil.

This item is a 3 star item that comes with the highest level requirement, gear requirement and requires you to have grinded for a book to be able to obtain that item. So why are you going to sell it for less profit than a piece of leather you randomly obtain? Makes literally no sense besides the fact that it’s a game, not real money and you don’t really care.

But you’ve put an awful low value on your time and effort to be able to get that item. May as well just keep it and let others do the reading.

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This is basically why I stay far away from the first come/first serve shark waters that is patch day. Trying to compete with the masses is a complete and utter waste of my time. It's not that my items would not sell; I just know they are going to sell for much less than when I initially look up the going rate, and trying to monopolize anything with the time I can put into the game is futile. I don't even consider myself 'economy savvy', and I know that when value depreciates as quickly as the afore mentioned items in this thread do, it is probably not the best idea to invest time and gil into them.

The game's currency might be play money, but the value any individual places on it can and will bleed over into the real world as the majority of us play the game at the cost of RL time and money. By this, I mean that every player has to determine how best to spend their time in game, and I am just not sure if those whom are frustrated are looking into if they are spending their time in a manner that is really worth it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vickii

For instance take those new housing cabinets you can buy from a housing vendor for 12,000. People bought them and tried to sell them for 1 mill then 20,000 now they’re on the MB for 6,000. The players are making a 6k loss on them if they’re selling them at all. That’s not going to happen much in real life because the sellers will go bust. Perhaps a company will gamble on a product but it will all be acceptable loss planned out ahead of time. Breaking even wouldn’t be uncommon but they’d rarely sell for a loss.

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Real world history is littered with failed product launches which ended up in the bargain bin within a month and their makers went bankrupt, but where a fool falls down two others rise to repeat the mistake. In a video game though there's no pressing need to get it sold now (unless maybe you're really tight on inventory slots), so selling at a loss doesn't make much sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gemina

This is basically why I stay far away from the first come/first serve shark waters that is patch day. Trying to compete with the masses is a complete and utter waste of my time. It's not that my items would not sell; I just know they are going to sell for much less than when I initially look up the going rate, and trying to monopolize anything with the time I can put into the game is futile. I don't even consider myself 'economy savvy', and I know that when value depreciates as quickly as the afore mentioned items in this thread do, it is probably not the best idea to invest time and gil into them.

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I didn't even bother doing any market research, just crafted a bunch of items. Most of them turned out to sell for around 2 million apiece. Unfortunately I have IRL work to do as well, but may I'll still have time for another crafting round before the prices are completely deflated.

To people who always complain about underselling: If you think it's worth more, just buy it all up and resell it for the price you think it's worth. You should be happy as a pig in mud people would be throwing their gil away in such a manner... IF it were actually 'worth' that much. But we all know there's no justifiable reason easily farmable materials should be 8k a piece aside from the initial rush.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hydralus

To people who always complain about underselling: If you think it's worth more, just buy it all up and resell it for the price you think it's worth. You should be happy as a pig in mud people would be throwing their gil away in such a manner... IF it were actually 'worth' that much. But we all know there's no justifiable reason easily farmable materials should be 8k a piece aside from the initial rush.

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Even 500g is a bit much, especially for something with high traffic. Even the crafted items will crash out after the initial rush.

If they released new gathering books it probably wouldnt have been as bad; but i guess desperate people who want any gil would still impact it.

I, too, hate when goods find a price in a market.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tdb

In a video game though there's no pressing need to get it sold now (unless maybe you're really tight on inventory slots), so selling at a loss doesn't make much sense.

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This is your first mistake, to believe that someone who undercuts greatly is selling at a loss.

No, they are selling at what they want to receive at a price that will be more attractive to a buyer. You may consider them misguided, they may be frustrating to those who want to max out the gil counter, but they are not selling at a loss.

This is not work. If you approach an MMO expecting to be amply rewarded for your effort beyond what other people think that reward should be, disappointment and frustration will follow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

This is your first mistake, to believe that someone who undercuts greatly is selling at a loss.

No, they are selling at what they want to receive at a price that will be more attractive to a buyer. You may consider them misguided, they may be frustrating to those who want to max out the gil counter, but they are not selling at a loss.

This is not work. If you approach an MMO expecting to be amply rewarded for your effort beyond what other people think that reward should be, disappointment and frustration will follow.

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Time has value and is not that hard to calculate gil per hour from different activities. So yes, selling at a loss is a thing because "opportunity cost" is also a thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

This is your first mistake, to believe that someone who undercuts greatly is selling at a loss.

No, they are selling at what they want to receive at a price that will be more attractive to a buyer. You may consider them misguided, they may be frustrating to those who want to max out the gil counter, but they are not selling at a loss.

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Did you miss the part where they bought that item from a vendor at 12000 gil? The post of mine which you quoted discussed the specific scenario Vickii described. If you buy something at 12000 and sell at 6000 that's a loss in my book. I guess if you feel it's overpriced at the vendor and want to provide it for cheaper at your own expense then sure, you're free to do that. But it's still a loss.

New 5.4 Gatherable mats started at 25k in Balmung, dropped to 10k by 7 am, was below 4k by 2pm lol.

Everyone can mass gather unlimited materials, crafters need limited materials. So the price crashes. Economy 101.

Welcome to everything economy related in ffxiv, it is just poorly designed from the ground up.

Crafted gear will be the same way, stuff selling for 2.5million will be 200k in a week or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vickii

But completely crashing it in 12 hours is stupidity. And I have an economics degree before you go on about how economies work.

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A real life economics degree isn't going to be much help in an online video game where people make random decisions for random reasons.

Most of the crashing is thanks to the bots, not real players. They will vigorously undercut each other because they don't really care. Their time is free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Time has value and is not that hard to calculate gil per hour from different activities. So yes, selling at a loss is a thing because "opportunity cost" is also a thing.

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Only if you care about such things. In a game, not everyone does.