Materia for tanks

I'm matting my tank up and was wondering if Tenactiy a good materia to put on. I remember hearing or maybe reading something that it's not that good. What sort of Materia should I be using?

If you're still learning and getting used to tanking? Go for it.
TEN isn't a wasted stat for learning.

Ideally, once you get more used to tanking and get a feel for what you're doing however, you'll find things dying faster is the best thing there is, so aiming to kill things faster is what you should do.
For that, WAR loves Crit and Determination more than Direct Hit. PLD/DRK/GNB however are different and value D.Hit more than Det.

Roughly.

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Originally Posted by Ahikito

I'm matting my tank up and was wondering if Tenactiy a good materia to put on. I remember hearing or maybe reading something that it's not that good. What sort of Materia should I be using?

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Get to a comfy sks tier, then Crit > DH > Det, on PLD, DRK, GNB, for WAR, its comfy sks tier, then Crit > Det. You really shouldn't bother with melding tenacity, you don't get enough of it to make it worth. Generally it is enough, having tenacity on your gear, but rarely ever worth melding it.
Tenacity isn't a terrible stat, you just need too much of it to be actually worth, where the other stats just give so much more.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Tenacity isn't a terrible stat, you just need too much of it to be actually worth, where the other stats just give so much more.

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I would honestly consider it a terrible stat. Sure, there is always gonna be one substat that is better than the others at a certain point but Tenacity scales so badly that it becomes negligible at best, if it weren't on some mandatory pieces of gear you would probably be just fine without any of it.


Maybe Tenacity would gain some value if things in this game were to hit you harder and therefore require you to have some passive damage reduction...alas, this is not the game we're currently playing.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I would honestly consider it a terrible stat. Sure, there is always gonna be one substat that is better than the others at a certain point but Tenacity scales so badly that it becomes negligible at best, if it weren't on some mandatory pieces of gear you would probably be just fine without any of it.


Maybe Tenacity would gain some value if things in this game were to hit you harder and therefore require you to have some passive damage reduction...alas, this is not the game we're currently playing.

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I mean for what it actually does, it isn't terrible, what makes it terrible is definitely it's scaling and as you say, things just don't hit hard enough. Even in Ultimates, I never needed tenacity melds, just whatever was on my gear.
When I said Tenacity isn't terrible, I just meant it's not so bad in that say a Crit Ten piece would still be considered if it's counterpart is Det Sks for example. It's not as bad as parry back in ARR/ HW where you avoided it as much as you could.

Even if things did hit harder, tenacity melding wouldn't provide you with the necessary eHP to require it.
I do think they should revisit the secondary stats, and make it a bit clearer their effectiveness.
I don't like how they make things so mercurial.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Even if things did hit harder, tenacity melding wouldn't provide you with the necessary eHP to require it.

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That is more on the fight design being so damage spike/tank buster heavy. Fights just don't have enough consistent damage hitting the tanks that 0% reduction (380 Tenacity), 5% reduction (2030 Tenacity), 9% reduction (3400 Tenacity), and 11% reduction (3911 Tenacity) would have a noticeable influence on how much healing is needed. When gcd heals are less than 10% of a healers gcd actions in a 12 minute fight, taking 10% less damage than other tanks isn't very much of a gain.

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I do think they should revisit the secondary stats, and make it a bit clearer their effectiveness.
I don't like how they make things so mercurial.

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The increases for every X points of secondary stat is fixed but their proportionate effect is what is changing. Every ~33 points of Tenacity increases damage done by a multiplier of .001 and decreases damage taken by a multiplier of .001. Every ~25 points of Determination increases damage dealt by a multiplier of .001. Every 16.5 points of Critical Hit increases Crit rate by .1% and damage bonus by .1%. Every 5.5 points of Direct hit increases the Direct Hit rate by .1%.

All but Crit have diminishing returns on damage as each increase is proportionately smaller. Crit has increasing proportionate returns on damage because increase of the crit damage multiplier increases the proportionate effect of each previous Crit rate increase.

Tenacity actually has increasing returns on mitigation as each increase is actually a greater percentage of the remaining damage.

Honestly, it would be nice if they would consolidate the stats since half of them do the same thing anyway. Determination and tenacity are almost the same things. Determination should just give slight damage reductions for tanks, slight MP recovery for healers replacing piety, and work the same for dps. Skill speed and spell speed should just be made into speed or haste whatever you want to call it.

If you want to keep the stats (materia sales) then have determination for DPS only, and tenacity for tanks only, and piety replacing determination for healers. Then have them scale for the appropriate roles, cutting down the need to avoid gear. Pretty much everyone wants crit and DH (Except warrior) and they don't want the other things. They aren't interesting enough for most people to be mad that they would be gone. It would be more interesting to have a speedy determination/tenacity build for tanks than always just melding and going for crit gear. They could make a new interesting stat similar to WoW's mastery stat that actually interacts with your class instead of just you do .001% more damage.

In summary, Crit, Haste, Determination (Versatility), Mastery?

I think one issue is that while Haste based stats are generally the most fun (because the baseline GCD in this game is molasses), they tend to be underpowered on melee outside of meeting certain thresholds (i.e. fit X GCDs in burst window). I'd love to see a stat that also lets you incrementally reduce recasts or even give you a chance to proc a reduced recast (i.e. Low Blow Resets).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

In summary, Crit, Haste, Determination (Versatility), Mastery?

I think one issue is that while Haste based stats are generally the most fun (because the baseline GCD in this game is molasses), they tend to be underpowered on melee outside of meeting certain thresholds (i.e. fit X GCDs in burst window). I'd love to see a stat that also lets you incrementally reduce recasts or even give you a chance to proc a reduced recast (i.e. Low Blow Resets).

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As you say Determination is basically Versatility. a boring stat that makes you do a little better in some things. I think they can format the stats as such:

TANKS:
Crit, DH, Speed, Tenacity (Damage+, Healing+, -Damage taken) scales like det does now

Healers:
Crit, DH, Speed, Piety (Damage+, Healing+, Mana Regen+) scales like det does now

DPS:
Crit, DH, Speed, Determination (Damage+, Healing+, critical damage+) make it give dps something that works with their class and have it work with crit. change crit to just a % to crit.

This keeps all the current materia in-game and makes it more valuable. It makes det more valuable to dps and separates them to be better at DPS than other roles. (Looking at you WHM)

Then possibly add a stat like 'Mastery' that interacts and changes gamplay. For instance on a paladin have mastery add more damage blocked and give a % to give an instant, free Holy spirit/circle. Paladin doesn't need more buttons per expansion just make current buttons more interesting. Also, try to highlight the strength of the class in this case blocking. This keeps the same amount of stats and gives people options in gearing besides just CRIT > all. It would be nice to shake up the gearing scene a bit. I would like to see speed lower cool down times and do more than just make the GCD not feel so slow lol. A class like Ninja with daggers should be super fast vs Warrior with a gigantic axe. Likewise, that gigantic axe should have big chunky hits vs the pokes of a dagger.

I'm not quite sure about the change to crit tbh. This would mean that DPS are the only jobs that can in any way increase their critical damage, so unless healers and tanks get something to make up for this it could make the dps gap between dps and non-dps jobs even wider than it is now. It also doesn't make Det more valuable to dps, the scaling is still the same, it just makes crit worse.

Unless they make some major adjustments to the way encounters work it would end up making healers and tanks even more unsatisfying since at that point you're really just a shit green/blue dps.

If I remember correctly that was exactly what crit did back in ARR...and it made the stat rather useless.

I think that's where the 'mastery' stat comes in. Adding dps through gameplay vs just adding .001% crit damage. Every game has to evolve over time. I don't think it's game-breaking to have crit still give critical damage to all roles. Can anyone say that gear and stats are overly exciting for the past few expansions of FFXIV? The game is great but it would be fun to shake up the gameplay just a little. I really hope Eureka and BSF are a testing ground for things like haste for the main game. Also, It would be nice to know the exact % your materia is giving you instead of having to use a site to see the difference.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I'm not quite sure about the change to crit tbh. This would mean that DPS are the only jobs that can in any way increase their critical damage, so unless healers and tanks get something to make up for this it could make the dps gap between dps and non-dps jobs even wider than it is now. It also doesn't make Det more valuable to dps, the scaling is still the same, it just makes crit worse.

Unless they make some major adjustments to the way encounters work it would end up making healers and tanks even more unsatisfying since at that point you're really just a shit green/blue dps.

If I remember correctly that was exactly what crit did back in ARR...and it made the stat rather useless.

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I mean they could just rewrite crit to being just chance of proccing a crit, whilst having crits deal a flat plus damage that scales with det, but agree it would totally capsize the gap between the roles for sure. What is worse is that seeing how they seem to want to do this anyway, it could very well be something they're thinking of doing, just to shove the roles in their place. Almost final nail in the coffin in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by MariAmaranthine

I think that's where the 'mastery' stat comes in. Adding dps through gameplay vs just adding .001% crit damage. Every game has to evolve over time. I don't think it's game-breaking to have crit still give critical damage to all roles. Can anyone say that gear and stats are overly exciting for the past few expansions of FFXIV? The game is great but it would be fun to shake up the gameplay just a little. I really hope Eureka and BSF are a testing ground for things like haste for the main game. Also, It would be nice to know the exact % your materia is giving you instead of having to use a site to see the difference.

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Yeah it might just be my experience with the mastery stat in WoW, where it barely addds any dps benefits to healers and tanks, that is making me biased. A more interesting stat like Mastery would certainly shake things up a bit. A stat like haste is unfortunately always going to be limited by the game's combat system, it is only ever going to increase your cast speed and lower your GCD since they literally can't make auto attacks and dot ticks faster.