I hope the Nier raids aren't a sign of the future

shadowbringers at first was the best expac yet to me but after dealing with the nier raids its really dropped. My main issue is that ff14 pulls from the history of the final fantasy series as a whole to make its own stories and thats awesome....so why bring in and tack on another completely different game?

What really brought this gripe on was playing in bojza, which is very optional content because you dont even need to go in it for that shiny new weapon, but anyway, the story thats happening in there is very well put together yet relegated to bojza, the new eureka. I bet players skip right past it which is a shame.

Meanwhile the nier raids for me at least, I dont care for them at all, i've never played nier, know nothing about it and after having it shoved in my face like this if I did have any curiosity then its been violently extinguished. I admit they're well put together(copied factory is overly long, puppet is better on that)the music is neat i guess, not a fan of the moody glam.

The main issue is the nier content is alliance raids, I now have to run content that I dont care about every week for months to keep up, this isnt fun, this is annoying and grating each time i go into this content, I feel nothing for it, I dont push my rotation to outdo anyone else, i pick my easiest/no responsibilty job(sam) and just go through the motions, i feel nothing when i queue for this until its over and i rush for the exit. sry for being dramatic.

on the flipside theres the ivalice raids! those were perfect how they weaved in tactics in so many ways, I was always amped to run into those and still am, same with the mhachi tier....and even though im tired of them, even crystal tower. I subbed for final fantasy not whatever game they wanna cram in.

I'm not against nier being added in but it SHOULD NOT be alliance content, nothing that isnt final fantasy should get that big of a role in this game, anything you have to do every week, multiple times should be pure FF content. in the past other content like that was small trials like monster hunter or the yokai event, nier shouldve been like the four lords quests, would still get their quality fights and story but also it wouldnt get crammed in your face, you'd finish it and that would be that, theyll pop up in roulettes and no biggie.

Because of nier in this game, well, i now dislike nier because ff14 is my fave game and im stuck with nier forever in it sadly but also im on edge because 6.0 is being worked on, we know nothing about it and although the content makes me sad i know its been a hit and they're toiling on something for that alliance spot and I can only hope it gets back to FF content.

The Nier raid actually got me wanting to play Nier Automata itself. I have since bought and finished the game. Thinking about it, the crossover with Monster Hunter World also got me to buy that, plus its expansion.

I was already interested in both games beforehand though. The crossovers work just fine in my view, as long as they can properly integrate them into the world.

From my point of view, Alliance raids are just something i don't do ( considering i have nothing to gain from it, and the queueing times were just insane everytime i tried to go for it to do something on stream ), while i'm doing Boja a few hours evey day ( even tho Eureka was probably the feature i disliked the most in the whole game )... Again it's only my personal opinion but i don't see Nier getting that much of an importance compared to pure FFXIV content like the Relic

I dont have much of an opinion on this topic. If they do something original, thats fine. If they reference another FF game, thats fine. If they bring in a guest creator from another game series, thats fine too. If i dont like the story, i can not pay attention to it(skip cutscenes, click fast and not read dialogue). If i dont like the raids at all, i can not run them. Its nice to have the extra option for gear/upgrades/glamour, but it isnt at all required to progress. A set of crafted gear from this tier would be more then enough to get me through the story of the next tier, let alone with some tome pieces added in. My advice to you OP, is that if you arent enjoying the nier content then stop doing it. You say you want to "keep up", and i will guarantee you that you wont "fall behind" in any noticable way by being a couple ilvls lower.

And as an aside, i saw just as many people complaining last expansion that they "wasted the alliance content slot" on the Ivalice retread. They didnt want references to older games, they wanted something new to explore. My point, i guess, is that no piece of content is for everyone. Learn to accept this as a fact, because it cant change.

After the nightmare that was the Eurekas, you couldn't pay me to do this new one. Too much hassle for this child.

I feel Nier being an alliance raid is a little out of place. I don't mind small events like the Yo-Kai Watch stuff or Rathalos fight, but for larger things like alliance raids should be strictly Final Fantasy.

My frustration with the Nier raid is more with the lack of standardized indicators/telegraphs. It was like at some point, they just gave up and started doing random crap.

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Originally Posted by ChocoPuni

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Why do you feel bad about FF XIV having NieR raids? Besides, NieR Replicant and Automata are some of the best JRPG ever made. I literally see no reason for you to be angry about it. You could just go and play those games instead of being angry about the raids... If you don't want to, that's fine but still no reason to be angry. :confused:

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I think because it simply doesn't really fit the gameverse of FFXIV and it really doesn't fit. DOn't get me wrong I enjoyed the challenge the NieR raids offered but I was really hoping for a visit to another location like the previous raids did. Although I think I am one of the few that liked the HW raids but I totally loved the return to Ivalice raids.

For whatever its worth, I see why SE went this route and it was to get folks to buy the game. After doing the raids and going back to get the notes in each area to see what is up, got me to go buy NieR: Automata to see what the story is all about afterwards. And You're right the story for NieR is great. But in the end it really doesn't fit the FFXIV universe when you compared it to the last 2 raid sets we had. I think that is were the OP is coming from. I dunno I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

My frustration with the Nier raid is more with the lack of standardized indicators/telegraphs. It was like at some point, they just gave up and started doing random crap.

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i think this was a great addition actually, like on the first boss of the new one, at some point there are no marks, you just have to remember to pay attention to the boss itself and its movements, and that gets you out of the habit of *learning the patterns and avoid the marks without having to think*

( and i want to add up that my statement is in no way directed at or trying to blame any kind of player )

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

I think because it simply doesn't really fit the gameverse of FFXIV and it really doesn't fit. DOn't get me wrong I enjoyed the challenge the NieR raids offered but I was really hoping for a visit to another location like the previous raids did. Although I think I am one of the few that liked the HW raids but I totally loved the return to Ivalice raids.

For whatever its worth, I see why SE went this route and it was to get folks to buy the game. After doing the raids and going back to get the notes in each area to see what is up, got me to go buy NieR: Automata to see what the story is all about afterwards. And You're right the story for NieR is great. But in the end it really doesn't fit the FFXIV universe when you compared it to the last 2 raid sets we had. I think that is were the OP is coming from. I dunno I could be wrong.

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Yes you got a point, even if they are 2 very good games, the universe don't fit into one another, the same with MH, i don't like MH so i just avoided the trial

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Originally Posted by ChocoPuni

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Why do you feel bad about FF XIV having NieR raids? Besides, NieR Replicant and Automata are some of the best JRPG ever made. I literally see no reason for you to be angry about it. You could just go and play those games instead of being angry about the raids... If you don't want to, that's fine but still no reason to be angry. :confused:

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It's not really a feeling of anger and more of slight disappointment. Don't get me wrong, the NieR raids are well designed and I like the outfits but it neither fits into the XIV world, be it the Source or the First, nor does it expand XIV's universe in any way. The NieR raids simply exist, a bit of fan-service that is mostly disconnected from everything else.


Take the Crystal Tower raids for example, the whole thing is basically taken from Final Fantasy III, including Xande, Doga and Unei, but altered heavily to not only fit into XIV but actually become an integral part of it.
Same with the Ivalice raids which take more than just inspiration from FFXII and FF Tactics but again have been reworked to fit into and expand the universe. The same can't be said for the NieR raids.

Personally, I'm digging the Nier raids so far. They've come up with some bosses that shake things up pretty well. Aesthetically it might not quite mesh with everything else, but A:we've kinda hit that point already with the variety of modern styled crafted glamour gear and mogstation items and B:its in the First, so I'm okay with them going a bit wild.

The story is pretty scarce so far too, but somehow it isn't bothering me too much, though I accept that others might feel stiffed. I'm hoping they are saving the big reveals for part 3.

The NieR Raids are cool, though I do have some minor beefs with them:

1). The boss fights take waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. I think they could have been sped up a little, to be quite honest. I like the content, but sometimes I cringe when I Q up for Nier because it's going to be quite a long dungeon, and by the end of it, I'm just glad to be done with it so I can log off.

2). Some of the mechanics' margin of error is way too small and sometimes the server and network latency means you get hit with crap you should have rightfully dodged.

3). Some of the mechanics are too obtuse, there's not enough clues as to what you are ACTUALLY supposed to do, especially the thing in the Command Room and all of those TVs on the wall and you're supposed to somehow magically know which one won't kill you in one hit, and if the rest of the raid has a bunch of newbies in it, you can't just use the "follow the others" rule when you got 3 groups going to 3 different places... yeah that doesn't exactly work.

4). Hit Detection on the pink energy balls is all kinds of jank. I've stood nearly ontop of one before, perfectly fine. Other times, I'm 10 feet away from one, and POOF, +Vulnerability and cue an eyeroll as there's no way in frick that should have hit me. And to exacerbate the problem, they love throwing whole rows of the stupid things where you're supposed to squeeze between them, in gaps far smaller than the margin of error and... yeah, sometimes you're just gonna get hit even though you shouldn't, and you were perfectly in the middle between two of them (which is the only place you coulda been, esp that stupid hallway of death). Other times you can just sprint through and not care and you never get hit. It lacks consistency something terrible.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

3). Some of the mechanics are too obtuse, there's not enough clues as to what you are ACTUALLY supposed to do, especially the thing in the Command Room and all of those TVs on the wall and you're supposed to somehow magically know which one won't kill you in one hit, and if the rest of the raid has a bunch of newbies in it, you can't just use the "follow the others" rule when you got 3 groups going to 3 different places... yeah that doesn't exactly work.

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The mechanic(im assuming youre refering to the pods, as i dont remember any of the other mechanics using the TVs) is shown and easy enough to follow, but the tell is in a place people arent used to looking. When the boss gets to the pod phase, he randomly does one of two attacks(the lines or the circles) then follows it up by doing the other one. In both cases, the dodge is to get to the middle of the space inbetween the pods where theres some sort of safe zone. The key to the mechanic though is to notice the screens. The pods that do the line are called R10s, the ones that do the circles are R30s(both also show a timer so you can see exactly how long you have to get to the safe spot). For the first round, it doesnt matter. The lines/circles are all properly spaced to leave a safe spot. You can even tell which version of the attack is coming based on how spread out the pods are - the lines are narrower attacks so there are more of them spread in a way that they end up closer to each other. The third and fourth time he summons pods(ive never had the fight go long enough to know if theres a 5th and beyond in his mechanic rotation), he summons a mix of both types. These pods are all spread out in the closer formation, so you need to check the screens to find 2 R10s next to each other for their attacks to leave a safe zone - any R30 will overlap with the neighboring pod regardless of its type. Then the fourth time is the same, but the pods shift to one side or the other - so find a pair of R10s and follow the shift lines to be in the actual safe spot that will form(admittedly, THIS one took me a few weeks to figure out - i thought the shift meant they were firing their lasers at an angle instead of straight and i couldnt wrap my head around where the safe spot should be).

Wow, you guys actually do see my point.

Like many others have said imo the nier raids just feel very "placed" into the game, nothing feels natural about them in the world of this game. And I get that nier is highly regarded but I pay to play ff14 online cause I'm a massive final fantasy fan not nier online or any other wild crossover idea that square wants to toss into this game.

I get they want new players but that's the wrong way to do it, you can't really skip this content yknow because those raids are casual content, your weekly to do list, MH, yokai, Garo, those were all side things you could choose to do and if you weren't interested then easily pass it by, not so with nier and thats why I get nervous that they'll pull this again.

This game itself has so much lore just waiting to be tapped into so why use up that massive alliance raid spot with its 3 tiers and story on a completely different game?

I'm not against crossovers either and think the 2 raids so far are fine albeit a bit long and weird as all hell, but other games should be given small roles and not be placed into the main spotlight.

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Originally Posted by Acelyn

I'm not against crossovers either and think the 2 raids so far are fine albeit a bit long and weird as all hell, but other games should be given small roles and not be placed into the main spotlight.

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Some of the game's best content has been crossovers, like the Ivalice raids.

RE:Frizze: I don't think forcing players to look up on a fricken wall all around the arena is a good idea while you're trying to DPS a boss, especially when you can't really find a good camera angle that lets you see the ground and the wall both nicely because of the stupid asinine zoom out limits they place on you (which is the same beef I have against bosses like Famfrit that you NEED to see the top of, but it's hard to if you're up close so you don't get blasted with Tsunami because you couldn't fricken SEE which way he was turned because the upper half of his body is off-screen because the game won't let you zoom out far enough).

The ivalice raids are my favorite ones.

What I meant is that other game series shouldn't get that sort of spotlight, tactics is final fantasy so its fine, but nier isn't and thats what made me angry.

I'd very much rather fight organics then mechanicals, so that's the major gripe i have w/ it. Yes, there are mechs in FFXIV universe as well, with all its magitek wonders, and I equally dislike those too, don't worry ;D

The 2B outfit is amazing though; YorHA stuff in general is not bad.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

The NieR Raids are cool, though I do have some minor beefs with them:

1). The boss fights take waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. I think they could have been sped up a little, to be quite honest. I like the content, but sometimes I cringe when I Q up for Nier because it's going to be quite a long dungeon, and by the end of it, I'm just glad to be done with it so I can log off.

2). Some of the mechanics' margin of error is way too small and sometimes the server and network latency means you get hit with crap you should have rightfully dodged.

3). Some of the mechanics are too obtuse, there's not enough clues as to what you are ACTUALLY supposed to do, especially the thing in the Command Room and all of those TVs on the wall and you're supposed to somehow magically know which one won't kill you in one hit, and if the rest of the raid has a bunch of newbies in it, you can't just use the "follow the others" rule when you got 3 groups going to 3 different places... yeah that doesn't exactly work.

4). Hit Detection on the pink energy balls is all kinds of jank. I've stood nearly ontop of one before, perfectly fine. Other times, I'm 10 feet away from one, and POOF, +Vulnerability and cue an eyeroll as there's no way in frick that should have hit me. And to exacerbate the problem, they love throwing whole rows of the stupid things where you're supposed to squeeze between them, in gaps far smaller than the margin of error and... yeah, sometimes you're just gonna get hit even though you shouldn't, and you were perfectly in the middle between two of them (which is the only place you coulda been, esp that stupid hallway of death). Other times you can just sprint through and not care and you never get hit. It lacks consistency something terrible.

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I 100% Agree With You Maeka! I Have Came Across Many Lag Spikes, When Dodging Those AOES! There Is So Much Happening At Once, You Feel Like Your Head Could Spin Constantly. I Have Had One Of My FC People Put A Sign, On Top Of Their Characters Head To Follow Them. No Matter How Many Times I Adjust That Freaking Camera, For My SMN To See And Attack, I Am Not Getting Anywhere With Dishing Out Much DPS, Just To Constantly Dance/AKA Dodge The Freaking AOES In My Opinion. I Feel Like A Ballerina Then Anything.

Also Some People Learn Slowly And Differently From Others! Some People Have To Play The Raid, Over And Over Again Until They Understand It! Some People Have To Look It Up To Learn How To Play The Whole Raid Itself! What I Mean Is, Please Be Patient With Those Who Learn Differently. If Not Then Do Not Join With Them In The Raid, Since It Will Only Stress You As A Person, Who Learns Quickly And Can Not Be Patient. Also If They Have Discord And You Can Chat With Them, Ask Them For It And Help Them While Playing The Raid. Raids Can Be Very Stressful Imo!

Why are you capitalizing every word?

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Originally Posted by Frizze

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Yeah this part is the hardest part for me in that whole raid because it just takes me way too long to figure out where the safe spot is. And most of the time I still have to just follow everyone else otherwise I’ll be too late. Also, what do you mean by shift? I’m not understanding you on that.

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Originally Posted by Espon

I feel Nier being an alliance raid is a little out of place. I don't mind small events like the Yo-Kai Watch stuff or Rathalos fight, but for larger things like alliance raids should be strictly Final Fantasy.

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Why? It's limiting. Imagine Thearhythm without other SE titles as musical options despite being well within property rights. It's good content, and I like having the orchestrations playing in my estates.

https://youtu.be/hD-PfAmuPC0

If they merged the nier raids into ffxiv as smoothly as they did the ivalice ones it would have been no problem. But the fact that these robots and these large piles of spaceship debris is just scattered over the first with no one at all knowing about it, is a stretch. I know some ppl want to say it was due to airships not being able to fly high enough or because it was buried, but airships do fly high enough, that's why one of the options to get to mount gulg, which is definately high enough to fly over the mountains and see what was there, was an airship and their were already mines leading right up to the bunker, which is under open sky, so the discovery was definitely nothing new. Let's also look at the fact that after the robots were able to blow away an entire mountain without batting an eye, there is miles of wreckage strewn about. Kindda hard to miss.

It just makes zero sense, you really need to stretch the lore and think the citizens of the first and the ascians themselves who would totally have utilized this for a calamity given the chance, are either super unobservant or just plain dumb enough to miss everything. It's nothing but fan service which they didn't even bother to try to integrate into the lore, which is why I believe so many have taken issue with it. Not only that, but it has been some of the worst story telling of a 24 man raid we have gotten yet. It was if Yoko Taro didn't really wanna do it but had his hand forced, so he slapped something together haphazardly. We know he is a much better story teller than this.

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

Yeah this part is the hardest part for me in that whole raid because it just takes me way too long to figure out where the safe spot is. And most of the time I still have to just follow everyone else otherwise I’ll be too late. Also, what do you mean by shift? I’m not understanding you on that.

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So the first-third times the mechanic is done, the pod appears right in front of a monitor that tells which attack it will be doing. Then the 4th time, the pods all have shift lines either to the left or the right. So you find the right monitor, and follow the shift lines to where they will actually spawn since it is no longer straight in front. As for it taking too long to spot, thats also a matter of luck. I had a run last week where for the 3rd pod set the safe spot spawned right where we were already fighting the boss. Then the fourth was on the far side and we had to sprint to make it(not everyone did make it, but we still cleared him well enough).

Maeka - I wasnt saying it was a good or bad mechanic, just that its easy to understand and that it has an in game tell if you know where to look. And i also disliked the camera games i had to play for famfrit. Him being a little shorter would have made a big difference on those tsunamis. Looking outside the arena for a mechanic also isnt a new idea, they just dont use it all the time. Thordan Ex had an eye that would do gaze attacks from out of bounds. Watching Ex-Death to see if he was interacting with the black hole helped you determine which version of his attacks were coming. Kefka had a statue outside the arena with different mechanics depending on the phase of the fight. Dodging Twintania(or Bahamut) divebombs is much easier if you spot the side theyre coming from. The first boss in Qitana Ravel has a statue that fires on one side or the other of the arena. Theres even a trash fight in Stone Vigil(as well as a boss fight - if i remember right one is story mode other is hard mode) where a dragon appears outside the window, and you can use a canon to drive it away and make the fight easier. I could come up with more examples, but my point was just that theyve done it before and likely will again.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

The NieR Raids are cool, though I do have some minor beefs with them:

1). The boss fights take waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. I think they could have been sped up a little, to be quite honest. I like the content, but sometimes I cringe when I Q up for Nier because it's going to be quite a long dungeon, and by the end of it, I'm just glad to be done with it so I can log off.

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They take long because we don't outgear them yet. Around 6-8 weeks into 5.4, when people have gotten some classes to 520/530 item level we'll start seeing a reduction in kill times for those bosses. Also, as people get better at mechanics and aren't DPSing with weakness/brink

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3). Some of the mechanics are too obtuse, there's not enough clues as to what you are ACTUALLY supposed to do, especially the thing in the Command Room and all of those TVs on the wall and you're supposed to somehow magically know which one won't kill you in one hit, and if the rest of the raid has a bunch of newbies in it, you can't just use the "follow the others" rule when you got 3 groups going to 3 different places... yeah that doesn't exactly work.

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Looking outside the arena for hints about the mechanic is already required in multiple story trials. Leviathan, Shinryu, Ifrit hard, Stone Vigil second boss. The additional information is directly on the screen, it directly shows the shape of the AOE that pod will spawn (line vs circle), or the number required in the tower (fill all the tally marks). And it gives you a good 10-15 seconds to process it.

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4). Hit Detection on the pink energy balls is all kinds of jank. I've stood nearly ontop of one before, perfectly fine. Other times, I'm 10 feet away from one, and POOF, +Vulnerability and cue an eyeroll as there's no way in frick that should have hit me. And to exacerbate the problem, they love throwing whole rows of the stupid things where you're supposed to squeeze between them, in gaps far smaller than the margin of error and... yeah, sometimes you're just gonna get hit even though you shouldn't, and you were perfectly in the middle between two of them (which is the only place you coulda been, esp that stupid hallway of death). Other times you can just sprint through and not care and you never get hit. It lacks consistency something terrible.

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The energy balls are terrible, not going to even try to dispute that. That being said, you never have to squeeze between the tight ones on the hallway if you're willing to go backward if needed.

Having cross-over raids is fine for me.. I like that we get cross-over content. I never saw FFXIV having a reliance on Nier. You can simply ignore that Nier exists if you choose to.

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Originally Posted by Yuletide

Having cross-over raids is fine for me.. I like that we get cross-over content. I never saw FFXIV having a reliance on Nier. You can simply ignore that Nier exists if you choose to.

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You can choose to ignore anything, but that doesn't mean the devs shouldn't take the time to integrate it into the lore of the world in some sort of fashion that makes sense. Especially in a game from a series that is known for its lore and its worldbuilding. That makes fan service of this scale lazily dropped right into the middle of one of the most well crafted stories that have told in this game yet, stick so much more.

Asking for something to make sense from a lore perspective is not a big ask.

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Originally Posted by Masked-dingus

i think this was a great addition actually, like on the first boss of the new one, at some point there are no marks, you just have to remember to pay attention to the boss itself and its movements, and that gets you out of the habit of *learning the patterns and avoid the marks without having to think*

( and i want to add up that my statement is in no way directed at or trying to blame any kind of player )

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I would agree if they haven't been standardizing indicators for 70+ levels. But the fact that they did is what makes it feel like they just gave up on the indicators.

I've said before in other threads - aside of generally feeling like the series isn't a good fit with FFXIV at a concept level, a big issue with the raids we have had so far is that it feels like there is little or no effort to make the crossover interesting to FFXIV players who have not played NieR.

We are two-thirds through the story now and have barely met the NieR characters or spent time with them. I don't have any idea of their personalities or why I should be interested in them.

The raid series seems to be treated as an opportunity to continue the NieR story for the enjoyment of NieR fans without bothering to make it coherent as a stand-alone piece of storytelling. And when the constant re-running of alliance raids is such a big thing for FFXIV gameplay, it just reminds me every time of how frustrated I am with that storytelling approach, regardless of the game-quality of the raids themselves.

I enjoy a lot of aspects of these raids, but their integration into the overall world is weak. No real argument there. I am however reserving judgement on the story until we see the end. At this stage in the ivalice raids even people who had played all the ivalice games were unclear on how everything kinda fit together(and a lot of those who hadnt were just lost). I havent played Nier(interested but never found the time), so im accepting being somewhat lost for now. If thats still the case at the end, ill have a much lower opinion of the whole endeavor.