So this is something that's been bothering me a while looking at the forums and how people just expect others to read guides and videos even when they're new, or fighting something for the very first time.
Why is it considered cheating by other gamers if you pick up a walkthrough in the past for say.. FF7, FF8, FF9 and used it to get everything learn everything and play?
But on this game, the moment you go into 'old content' (even if it's not old to you) you're expected to have watched a video on the fight or read the wiki. A lot of 'go read the wiki' from people?
Is that not cheating also? If one starts out this game and all they do is follow the wiki, multiplayer or not. Is that not the same as using a walkthrough or strategy guide back in the day?
I personally don't want to cheat and learn things myself. But that seems to tick people off.
"Cheating" - Walkthroughs on Solo Game vs MMOs
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10-28-2020, 02:47 PMNekaru_Infitima"Cheating" - Walkthroughs on Solo Game vs MMOs
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10-28-2020, 02:55 PMVyrerus
The idea behind not using walkthroughs for a single player game is so that you don't spoil the experience by reading ahead/knowing all of the twists in the plot. A lot of guides and walkthroughs aren't spoiler free. The societal idea behind that is people want you to enjoy the game more and learn to play it yourself. A lot of guides also only opt for middle of the road tactics.
These kinds of things are true for MMORPG fight guides and the like as well, but in the MMO setting you are doing content with other people. People have different priorities and concerns in regards to fights. Most people just want to win, they don't want to think. Basically, we as a player base encourage guide use in order for people to learn a way to win the fight that everyone in the group can agree on and adjust around. There's more than one way to handle a lot of the mechanics in this game, but if 1/8 person is trying to freestyle what they learned on their own vs. what the 7/8 other people are doing, it can lead to death and wipes. So it's mostly about getting sympatico with the groups you're joining, have consideration for the 7 other people and their wants and needs vs. your own. If you want to learn fights without guides, just find 7 other people with the same mentality and prog with them.
Edit: Also, as an aside. A lot of people use walkthroughs and guides with no qualms for single player games, usually due to impatience. It can be surprising to learn, but there are tons of people who've never played a game without consulting a guide. -
10-28-2020, 02:59 PMNekaru_InfitimaI get that. But the question is still. Doesn't that still count as cheating?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
This game is story based. Using a wiki to find all the aethercurrents is the same as using a strategy guide to find all the hidden weapons (FF9).
Using a video/guide to know the mechanics of a fight and how to do it is the same as using a strategy guide to know the best tactic and buildup for a boss in the old FF games.
In the past you weren't considered a real gamer if you cheated and looked everything up. People would say 'git gud' and say you didn't do it yourself.
Now, if you DON'T cheat, you're not a real gamer because you died and people still say 'git gud'.
The standards have changed. -
10-28-2020, 03:08 PMVyrerusNo, it's just the same as in Sports when one coach watches a team they're about to face's game footage for the current and previous season. You learn most of their tricks, and then your team performs better on game day, supposedly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
As for guides being cheating, well no, they're not. They do remove some of the challenge, but they don't do so through unlawful means. There's no hard rules with video games, beyond altering/exploiting coding. Believing that there are is basically endorsing a form of Slave morality. Unless you're altering the game code to win or using tools you're not supposed to have, stuff that's specifically against the ToS for instance, then that's a form of cheating. But guides are just information. How well you absorb or use their information is up to you, and they don't win the fights for you.
Also, I'd say that the reason the mentality is different between an MMO and a single player game is that the challenges are different. In one, it's supposed to be all on you to win the game. Using a guide is using someone else. In the other, it's a team oriented affair. Your individual contribution matters greatly, but it's more important that you don't weigh the team down, rather than be clever or egotistical.
The old mentality about guides is all an ego thing. -
10-28-2020, 03:33 PMPentheaI don't consider it cheating but I do consider it as a way to experience the game the devs did not intend. If the devs intended players to have a walkthrough, then games would be constantly holding their hands and alerting them about everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
I'm fine with people using walkthroughs. Each to their own. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of games and it is by no means making the gaming industry worse.
However people should be cautious when using walkthroughs, especially those that are fan-made. I know a couple of people who got major story spoilers because of walkthroughs.
Anyway using walkthroughs could only be considered cheating if the terms of service for the game specifically state that you are not allowed to access information from outside the game to help you. -
10-28-2020, 03:34 PMZomkei
are you talking about dungeons and story trials? because as far as i have seen, no one expects you to watch a guide. unless you come in demanding them to explain mechanics to you, most of them couldn't care less if you mess up. the only time i've seen people demand you watch a guide is for EX trials , savages, and ultimates. if you want to do those blind, you could always just put a PF up for that specifically though.
and to add a note, if you're just doing story mode / dungeons, and someone DOES complain you didn't watch a guide, just ignore them lol -
10-28-2020, 03:40 PMNekaru_InfitimaHad someone tell our party 'videos exist' on normal non-savage Deltascape 2 raid after going back and doing it. (I neglected it my playthrough and now at endgame bored going back and doing things I didn't do.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zomkei
But that's not the first time. I've seen on the forum people try to hammer guides down peoples throats and not waste their time because they want to roulette and get things done as fast as possible. Even if it's new to the player.
Honestly I wish there was a Dutyfinder option like Party Finder to set it to just people who haven't done that fight yet. The first time around. Then open it to roulettes after. -
10-28-2020, 03:45 PMMariaArvana^This. The only time people actually care/should care if you've read a guide or not is EX/Savage/Ultimate, where trying to go in blind when there's guides available is an active detriment to the other 7 players you've partied with and essentially saying your time is more important than the time of 7 other players due to the high volume of one-hit kill mechanics, dps checks, and mechanics where if one person messes up, results in a full raid wipe. Unless you've all mutually agreed to it through day 1 prog or a pre-made of people wanting to enjoy it blind for the thrill, whereas in a single player game your actions of going blind affect no one but yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zomkei
The mental difference of walkthroughs being cheating offline vs MMOs is the difference between partying with many others who value their time (MMO) vs your choice of blind progression vs guides affecting only yourself in an offline game.
From my long experience of doing roulettes, no one has ever said 'did you watch a guide', usually only giving tips if a person dies to a mechanic multiple times or if someone asks something along the lines of 'new here, should I watch for anything'? -
10-28-2020, 03:51 PMJojoyaIt wasn't cheating in the first place. Cheating is doing something the game does not intend or allow to gain some advantage to progression. If the Terms of Use included a clause stating users cannot share information about game play with others, then it would be cheating. I don't think any game has such a provision. The closest you get are alpha/beta testing NDAs where the developer doesn't want too much information leaked in advance of the game's release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
Those who call it cheating are the hardcore gaming purists who think a player should have to figure out everything on their own. Then there's the rest of the gaming community that understands sharing knowledge is the better way to go, especially in a MMO where player interaction is a core part of game play.
You don't need to worry about it. -
10-28-2020, 03:55 PMEdaxKnowledge is knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
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10-28-2020, 03:55 PMSeddrinth
I guess this is a difference between NA and JP. In JP people are diligent about studying up and they want to do their best to not burden others. It's a cultural thing many of us growing up in Asia to always think of what's best for the group, to be considerate. In NA more players have the mindset of "I'm going to do whatever I want" and expect random strangers to cater to them. Players queueing for roulettes not mostly not looking to do a blind prog run for 4/8 members. They just want their daily done, their tomestones, their gil. If you want to do blind prog, I would suggest doing them with friends/static/fc, but if you don't know many people in game as you've stated, then you can always put up a PF indicating that this will be a blind prog for the instance. You also can always recruit other players to form your own blind prog static or join someone else's blind prog static . There are many groups recruiting players who are interested in only blind prog and the requirement is that you don't watch or read guides. I see them in the ff14 recruitment reddit all the time. I hope that clears up your question, and I wish you good luck.
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10-28-2020, 04:08 PMEnla
The only people I've ever seen equate walkthroughs to 'cheating' are literal children. That's playground 'I'm better than you because I did it the right way' talk, plain and simple. Where as in an MMO you're dealing with people who are presumably mostly adults and who mostly have lives outside of the game itself. I'm not going to yell at anyone for not watching a guide for content outside of Savage or Extremes because the vast majority of content in this game doesn't take much effort to pick up. Especially when most of the casual content in this game is designed to 'show' you what needs to be done as the fight unveils itself.
With that said, if you go into an Extreme or Savage party that isn't marked as learning and try to say you haven't watched a guide I'm going to heavily side eye you and insist you go learn with other like minded individuals. That's when it becomes a problem. Any other time? Do what you want honestly. Anyone who thinks that you /need/ to watch a Dungeon guide is kidding themselves. -
10-28-2020, 04:11 PMTheodric
Single player games only impact one individual if something goes awry. Multiple players are impacted if something goes wrong in group content in MMO's such as FFXIV.
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10-28-2020, 04:55 PMFrizzeYou might think that duty finder option would be a good thing, but it wouldnt work. You que for Delta 2. Now you get to wait for 7 other people who also need to do the same duty, AND who match up to the 2/2/4 group ratio. A que like that for new content that has hundreds of people queing an hour would be workable. But even like a month into the patch when the number of first timers queing is down to a dozen an hour it stops working. And for content several patches old, where you might be the only first timer queing this hour? And on top of that, youre making the assumption that everyone wants to play the same way. They dont. A large percentage(i would guess most actually) would be 100% happy playing with people who know the fight. Some dont want to be spoiled, some dont care, some actively want to be told what to do to make sure they win. As with any time you want something specific from a group of strangers, party finder is the way to go. "Delta 2 normal, going in blind no spoilers" - and get some like minded people or quiet helpful vets to join. Much easier then programing in a new filter that would make duty finder less useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
As for what happened, that honestly doesnt make sense to me. Unless the group was messing up easy mechanics and repeatedly wiping on a very winnable fight, or someone was asking the group to explain everything and rather then type out a guide the response was that videos exist... delta 2 isnt a fight that needs a guide. Its forgettable enough that i had to look up which fight it was(Catastrophe). That was a 1 pull fight when it was brand new and we didnt outgear it by 2 patches. Now it might be clearable even with 2 healers who eat every mechanic. So as Zomkei said, just ignore someone like that. -
10-28-2020, 07:51 PMKageTokage
Foreknowledge is not cheating.
Exploits like Ungarmax outside of squadrons and spinning bosses to prevent them from doing mechanics definitely are, though. -
10-28-2020, 09:26 PMADVSSI too remember when people were able to get titan to walk off his map and dieQuote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
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10-28-2020, 10:43 PMLineageRazor
In a single-player game, cheating is whatever you decide it is. If you believe that using a walkthrough spoils the game for you, then that's fine. If you prefer to speed through, pick up all the secrets on the first try, and so on, using a walkthrough is fine. Basically, unless you're bragging about your "quick win" on the forums, or whatever, what other people tihnk about using guides is totally irrelevant. it's a one-player game. You can play it however you want to, and get your money's worth however you like.
In a multi-player game, however, where you are cooperating with seven other people, all of whom may have different expectations than yourself. you need to take THEIR opinions into consideration. It's not all about you, and your own personal choices. If they're hoping to clear difficult content, and have done the homework, and then one person walks in blind and spoils the run, that one person has wasted the time of seven others, all for their own gratification. When prepping for difficult content that requires the cooperation of other people, you should prepare yourself in such a way that your performance will satisfy any of them. That means doing your homework.
If you PREFER to learn the fight from the ground up, that IS an option as well - but you don't have to spring that option on seven unsuspecting victims. Use Party Finder to tailor your group as you like. If you want to go into the run blind, that's fine - make a party finder group, and make it clear that it's a blind run. It will take longer to fill, to be sure, but once it does fill, you can friend the others that joined your run, make a linkshell and invite them. Chances are they are folks who ALSO like running old content blind, who don't care about a quick win and are satisfied to take the hard road.
I don't think there's many adult gamers that consider using guides to be "cheating", whether for single- or multi-player games, but the important thing is to realize that when you play a multi-player game, it's not all about you. It's about you, on a team with seven others - and those seven other expect you to be on top of your game. -
10-29-2020, 02:50 AMMsMisatoIts going to happen and unfortunately the game has been out for about 7 years now. The only time its good to go blind is during the release of new content but after a few days guides are out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
Honestly its just a good idea to review a guide be it a video or written guide on what to expect. When it comes to roulette, thing is you are playing with other people, you have to be respectful of their time when it comes to roulette. Some folks simply only have a couple of hours to play while others may have tons of time to play. Its great when you get a group of people that are new or ok with taking time to let you go in blind. But doing a little prep work on what to expect makes things go alot smoother and usually results in a happier party all around. personally some fights you should have an basic understanding of is maybe Dun Scaith, the Ivalice raids, and maybe the Nier Raids. If you are going savage, simply do your homework before hand, you will save yourself some headaches. Also you don't necessarily need to watch spoiler laden videos as there are those that upload a 5 to 10 minute video that just touches the mechanics.
However, you are free to setup a Party finder for older content to run blind in any content though with like minded folk to run in blind and keep it synced. -
10-29-2020, 03:05 AMAbsurdityI don't even want to imagine what it would look like if everyone only did what the devs intended...literally nothing but cure bots, 1-2-3 tanks and freestyling dps *shudders*Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
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10-29-2020, 06:33 AMGothicsharkInternet Social game, it's normal for people to at least take an interest in doing content successfully, you don't need to know 100% of everything, but you should at least learn the Raids and significant group content ie trials.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
It has never been considered Cheating to use a guide/strategy guide/wiki/or videos to successfully clear content in a video game. Some high ego types try and make it sound like "I'm so hardcore I did X solo without any aid." This stuff has always been an ego boost/brag issue. There have been a lot of video games over the years which you couldn't clear 100% unless you used a tip from a strategy guide that they made profit on. Prima Guides use to work with Dev teams to make their guides, and the developers use to make hidden things you could only find if you used the guide. At the same time, Braggards would claim to do 100% clears without the guide, odds are they were lying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
Well, they are echidna and terrible humans, if someone asks before a fight I usually try and give them a 1 or 2 line quick explanation, most good players will, as it's in everyone's interest that you should perform with a minimal amount of competency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
Not cheating never was either. Honestly, you should always use any aid or tool to make the game work best for you. Not to say I encourage people to break the TOS and use 3rd party addons, but using the wiki's and there are a couple of good ones, and a ton of good videos, a few of which I recommend subscribing to the content creators on. Learning a major fight before doing it makes you a better gamer, and it is not and never has been cheating.Now going in changing game files and cracking the code, is cheating and bannable on all Social Games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
Reading a guide, watching a video is not cheating, and a normal part of the learning process, you still have to do the content yourself. The only valid issue about using guides ad videos esp on a first playthrough, and it's also why I avoid using videos on a first playthrough when it's MSQ related areQuote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
. I still ask for a basic rundown of what I need to know in Chat. (ie: /P /A "1st time here, what's new and different, what is important that I need to know?" )spoilers -
10-29-2020, 06:50 AMGothicsharkNo never was either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
There are 3 aether currents you won't be able to get to with using aid from a wiki, well unless you are a really lucky person or the type whose not afraid of wall walking. Also, the dev team designs these things with the knowledge that people share information on wikis. So occasionally they intentionally make things harder to get to knowing full well you need the wiki or luck to find them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
Ego, but self-delusional ego, and most people who said it had the Prima Guide right next to the controller. I had this friend, I'll call him Mark, he would buy the guide with every game, he wouldn't buy the game if the guide wasn't there. Yet he would always brag how he never used the guides to clear the game. Trust me, I eye-rolled hard at him often. But then I was a girl, so I didn't have to brag about not using a guide, I enjoyed the game, looked up the hidden stuff in the guides, and had fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
A: Not cheating never wasQuote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
B: Are you mixing up games a bit, FFXIV players tend to be more Passive Aggressive than "Git Gud", they usually say something snarky, or like healers and their rez macros, extra saucy snark. -
10-29-2020, 07:00 AMGothicsharkUm back in the day Prima Guides were not only included in distribution packing, and sometimes with collectors version, but many of the hints were placed by the dev team, with the intention you couldn't pass the challenge without the tip. Many MMOs include a Wiki with guides, in fact back years ago WOW use to include item likes to several user/fansites which contained guides. (I think they stopped doing this, but not sure)Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
This game specifically encourages the fansites, as it has a bunch of back end tools that allow fans to directly link info from the Lodestone, specifically for use with wikis and character tracking.
Well honestly, that person was an Axolotl, but it's also a bit obtuse to not at least use the wiki guide on an actual raid which Deltascape is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
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10-29-2020, 08:11 AMGemina
For Ffxiv, no it's not cheating to look at a guide prior to entering the encounter. It's kind of like how sports coordinators will review film of the team they are playing prior to actually playing them, and they are allowed to do this.
Fact of the matter is, when you go into an encounter blind, the chances of you failing mechanics are very high. Looking at a guide may help with this, so at least when you die, you know what the hell did you in.
As another example plenty of guides still left me scratching my noggin when the mechanic is explained. Sharp Turn from the second boss in Puppets Bunker is a great example. None of the guides helped me figure out if the formation is on the outside or inside. If I dodged it, it was because I followed everyone (which also resulted in getting hit by it), or just got lucky. I didn't fully understand it until I recorded the encounter and figured it out for myself.
Even looking at guides for single player games requires that you execute the playtips. This will take practice, and some players can't figure out certain things on their own.
Cheating to me involves using things that give you an edge that is clearly not the intention of how to handle the encounter. An old school gameshark, cheat codes, or some of the third party tools players use for this game easily qualify. Another thing I highly consider cheating is cheese. Sure, some type of edge has been exploited, so all is fair in love and war, yes? Yeah right. Take your No-skill cheesehead arse to another arcade. -
10-29-2020, 08:28 AMlinayar
As someone who used gamefaq walkthroughs a lot on single player games, no I don't consider using those cheating.
Cheating is gaining an illegal advantage at the cost of another party. So, first of all, anything that is not illegal is not cheating. Second, anything that does not affect another party is also not cheating.
PVE is about multiplayer cooperation against the game environment, so it cannot negatively affect another player (world first race is not part of the game, so it's irrelevant whether something can help you beat a fight faster than other players). So the only thing that is relevant is whether something is legal. Watching a guide is legal, using addon is not. Addons can be considered cheating if they help you gain an advantage in combat because the official stance of the game dev is that you're not supposed to use it, but if the devs were to say yes on addons, it will not be cheating, it's as simple as that. -
10-29-2020, 09:43 AMVirusOnlineThese type of things are what SE would see as not just an individual gameplay mechanic, but also as a source of community knowledge. Aethercurrents. Hunts. Fates. Party Finder. Quest locations. Treasure Hunting. General loot table information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima
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Using a video/guide to know the mechanics of a fight and how to do it is the same as using a strategy guide to know the best tactic and buildup for a boss in the old FF games.
In the past you weren't considered a real gamer if you cheated and looked everything up. People would say 'git gud' and say you didn't do it yourself. Now, if you DON'T cheat, you're not a real gamer because you died and people still say 'git gud'.
MMOs are a different breed
Cheating ? Or community knowledge ? Or is it simply others telling others how they should experience a game ?
In my experience with WoW for nearly 8 years since BC and now FFXIV for 5 years since HW, this mentality of git gud is incredibly rare. I've done it all from casual to savage raiding in both games. It's generally understood that there is a difference between single player games and games which at some point require you to work with other people towards a common goal. Remember, kicking someone for how they play in a group content like for leveling roulette is considered legitimate. SE has literally given us the tools to reinforce the very idea of working towards a common goal that the majority desire.
On the other hand, in single player games we the player can control everything that happens: how we want to approach fights, what paths we want to travel, how we respond in and to that world given to us. But single player games today are often linear with a "unique once run through". Knowing this, in single player games I might want to know all about the hidden or easily missed content I might miss on my one and only runthrough.
After more than a decade playing MMOs, the biggest lesson I've gleaned is that MMOs thrive on it's main gameplay element: multiplayer interaction. It is the community itself who will always desire not just for more knowledge about content in the game, but to want to share knowledge for the sake of sharing knowledge to a plethora of people with different goals. Raiders of all levels, crafters from casual to pure gil dumping pentamelds, the one guy who runs into the hunt target by accident to the server's lead Hunt Masters, the FC that just wants to have a good night treasure hunting, or me who just wants to find the perfect glam and be able to search what dungeons drop what.
The Experts
And I won't forget to mention theory crafting. It is a hobby for some, and a proud stand for the masters of those classes. If WoW or FFXIV decided to tell players how to play and their optimized rotation off the bat, you'd be cutting off an entire community who like to theorycraft. This includes the crafting, class optimizing communities, and savage fight optimizations. It can be incredibly rewarding for a gamer in any game to create a build, theme it, name it, gear it, optimize it, and present their findings. As a gamer and dev, one thing you want is your community to be able to this. Theorycraft.
You have people on the front page creating classes that don't yet exist or modify them to be better balanced/played.
StormBlood NINs and those have mastered it and wrote the guides were truly impressive people to me because NIN was jank towards the end of SB and yet they wanted to find a way to make it good. And those who were good were good. My goal was to become better and see if there was simply a better way of doing things and I simply don't have the knowledge, skill, or whatever tools they use to have been able to theorycraft a SB NIN. In retrospect, look at WoW. They have addons to tell you how to even think. How boring. I remember the days you had to read the quest text to find out how to do anything. But even then, you'd have to google because it's vague. And that's what the community is for, and the community desires to share it.
TLDR
You call it cheating ? I call it community knowledge.
Use it, or don't, but I wouldn't call it cheating for something so simple as seeking knowledge.