Mch, Revive Ability

So I already know this is probably going to be a hard no for most players but last night I was thinking about what is MCH had a revive ability, Defibrillation. Now I was thinking it could have a 10s recast but require the use of Battery which limits its use since you have toe decide to use it on a fallen ally or save the battery for queen.

It's an interesting ideas, never heard a mch raise suggestion before, but outside of the healers I'd just stay with rdm and smn doing raises, wish more smn players would remember they have a raise.

conceptually sound but why MCH? it has zero support what so ever it would be incredibly wonky to give a job with no supporting a rez out of no where, besides....mch needs much more than a rez

I like it, interesting concept.

Please no. There is already RDM if you want to sacrifice your damage in exchange for rezing people dozens of times in a 24 man raid, the green dps healers thinking "i will let the rdm waste all his mana doing the rez job while i continue to dps to get a good parse on fflogs muhahaha !", all that for you getting no coms at the end despite the fact that you did prevent numerous wipes. I did not switch from RDM to MCH as a main dps job to get all this kind of problems again.

I mean, I'd love to go down the route of MCH having various, even eclectic, utility but... we're nowhere even near to that path. The devs have removed literally any and all utility from MCH. And if we're to pick up this bit of utility again, I'd like to see a cohesive place for it, rather than have rez the only (awkward, presently) mention of utility in the kit.

It terms of lore, how would MCH Raise technology work exactly? Is it magiteck based, or just straight up mechanical with no magical connection at all? Would the Empire have such a thing as well seeing as natural magic usage is not so common amongst the people there?

Probably thinking too much in to it eh....

At the beginning of ShB there was a suggestion like that.

Some/all jobs could have an instant 10 mins cooldown to raise or ranged as a role action.
The goal was to tip the scale between ranged and casters. Back then and even now Prog-wise, your group is punished for having 2 rangeds while you are heavily rewarded with an additionnal res and better DPS with a second caster as a RDM/SMN. Giving an instant res usable only once every pull would have fixed a bit the lack of utility in the ranged role (Rip Dismantle).

But currently, MCH needs something else than a new ability being a res.
If it's a role action, yes. If it's a new action after lv80 then no.

I can see the case for giving PLD, even MNK a raise, but MCH doesn't make much sense to me.

If it's just because you want a more technologically based raise skill, wait for Chemist.

So my thinking of it is that since the MCH build battery it could send an electrical charge to stimulate an unconscious ally essential raising them. The reality is that none of our current raises actually bring someone back from the dead but wakes them up from their unconscious state so an electrical charge walking someone up doesn't seem that out of place. Also I was thinking that unlike other raises this ability would only have a 5y range with the target waking up where they lie since this is not magic based.

As for why MCH since it has no utility, that is kinda the point. Though lots of MCH players like how it plays I personally miss the utility the job use to bring and I know other do too. Personally I'd like to see Dismantle or the old turret Hypercharge effect return but I still like this concept.

Technologically I don't see how this would be too out of place for MCH who literally summons a mech out of nowhere and whether or The Empire has this kind of technology matters very little since MCH was inspired by magitek and Cid's works and not directly influenced by them. I can see how this feels out of place this late in the game/lv for MCH to receive this kind of ulitily.

Also I just want Battery to have another use.

The problem is, giving MCH something as effective as a raise would see it's DPS plummet like RDM.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The problem is, giving MCH something as effective as a raise would see it's DPS plummet like RDM.

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What's MCH got left to lose?
http://prntscr.com/umzs9x

Also, RDM's never not had Verraise, and yet its DPS (be it rDPS or aDPS) relative to other damage-dealers has only steadily increased.

On mobile so can't edit.

As for not wanting this on MCH since RDM is kinda expected to to raise and waste their MP on it. SMN also has a raise but isn't expected to raise all the time and doesn't sacrifice DPS because of it. RDM only suffers because of how easy it is for them to raise. They doesn't have to worry about a long cast time like SMN does, they are able to get multiple raises out quick which SMN can't, and MP on RDM and SMN our important they don't have to worry too much is they manage it properly and use Lucid on CD.

Overall I see MCH being in the same boat as SMN and not RDM. Yes my initial though of this Raise would be that it has a 10s CD and is instant making it easy to pull off but it requires Battery which you need to build first, it also takes away battery from Queen causing her to be delayed which is a hit to your DPS as where for RDM it's one GCD. Also as for how much Battery it would need to be used on it idk but I would imagine enough that it wouldn't be too hard to build up enough to use but enough that it can be punishing to your dps and should be looked at as a tool to use if needed but not something so easy to use that it's almost a requirement you use it in place of others, like RDM and their raise.

I would say, just because there's a possible thematic explanation for it doesn't mean that it should happen. I'm not sure a defibrillator actually fits in the lore anyway (and definitely doesn't fit as a means of reviving someone in this instance). Also, I don't know the damage numbers on Queen, but my guess is that it would never be worth not resurrecting someone versus using the Queen. I don't see someone holding onto battery in case somebody dies, and I just see people bitching because the machinist wasn't paying attention and ended up doing DPS (their job) instead of rezzing someone with the battery they had.

I definitely see arguing that MCH could do with some more support, but I don't think this is it.

THE BIG QUESTION IS:
If your rez is a defibrillator... do you have no be next to the dead person to revive them?
Because if it's a melee range revive I'd never even put it on my hotbar.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

THE BIG QUESTION IS:
If your rez is a defibrillator... do you have no be next to the dead person to revive them?
Because if it's a melee range revive I'd never even put it on my hotbar.

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just a big ole raising drill.

Reassemble it for no Death Penalty.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

I would say, just because there's a possible thematic explanation for it doesn't mean that it should happen. I'm not sure a defibrillator actually fits in the lore anyway (and definitely doesn't fit as a means of reviving someone in this instance). Also, I don't know the damage numbers on Queen, but my guess is that it would never be worth not resurrecting someone versus using the Queen. I don't see someone holding onto battery in case somebody dies, and I just see people bitching because the machinist wasn't paying attention and ended up doing DPS (their job) instead of rezzing someone with the battery they had.

I definitely see arguing that MCH could do with some more support, but I don't think this is it.

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I can where you are coming from but ppl would have to realise that it's not an ability you can store and save for whenever with the way battery and queen work. Queen takes all battery when used and they can't expect the MCH to hold off on queen potentially over filling in battery just because someone might die. This makes it an ability to use if you can and not something to rely on.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

THE BIG QUESTION IS:
If your rez is a defibrillator... do you have no be next to the dead person to revive them?
Because if it's a melee range revive I'd never even put it on my hotbar.

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So I put in a comment earlier that I see this skill having a 5y range since it basically would be the same as using a defibrillator but like the person before said it could also be a 15y ranged shot at the target like other raises but I would prefer if the target didn't raise next to the MCH since it's not magic.

Overall I don't expect this to get added into the game nor expect any players to like the idea. This was simply an idea I had that I wanted to share and see what others thought of it.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

THE BIG QUESTION IS:
If your rez is a defibrillator... do you have no be next to the dead person to revive them?
Because if it's a melee range revive I'd never even put it on my hotbar.

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It would obviously be a drone or device of some kind. They already have several mini-devices in the animations for some of the DPS skills.

at this current rate they might as well if they don't add some abilities back that have cast times. it would just have to have a long cooldown.

This type of a rez would be amazing on a chemist healer.

Its honestly smart idea, but devs will limit its dps potential, so people who parse will commit suicide, so it might not happen.

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Originally Posted by AvenoMatt

I can where you are coming from but ppl would have to realise that it's not an ability you can store and save for whenever with the way battery and queen work. Queen takes all battery when used and they can't expect the MCH to hold off on queen potentially over filling in battery just because someone might die. This makes it an ability to use if you can and not something to rely on.

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Yeah, that's kind of what my point was. With any of the existing rezzers, you can tell if they have it ready (by their MP level) as well as if they are already casting it (outside of a Swiftcast).

If MCH would have something like this, nobody else would be able to tell if they are ready with it, or if they're close to being ready with it, or if they're currently working their way over to use it on a dead body. There's just way too many questions that will ultimately either result in:

1. People assuming that the MCH don't have it ready, and rezzing dead people as the MCH is finding and running over to them which would be frustrating for the MCH.

2. People assuming that the MCH does have it ready, and holding off the rez until the MCH drops the queen and everyone gets frustrated at them.

It also creates a situation where MCH WOULD be expected to rez people, since using battery to rez is probably a lot better than a healer/DPS giving up a quarter of their MP.

Good points. There is no way of letting others know whether you do or don't have enough battery to use the res unless the add some visual effect to the MCH but I don't think players want to see their character glowing or something everytime they have enough battery. Plus there are players who turn off all visual effects.

I still like it and think it would be an interesting battery alternative. Plus why should casters, besides BLM, be the only ones that can res.

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Originally Posted by AvenoMatt

Good points. There is no way of letting others know whether you do or don't have enough battery to use the res unless the add some visual effect to the MCH but I don't think players want to see their character glowing or something everytime they have enough battery. Plus there are players who turn off all visual effects.

I still like it and think it would be an interesting battery alternative. Plus why should casters, besides BLM, be the only ones that can res.

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SMN branches off from Arcanist so thats that on that, RDM is a Cater support, and both take massive hits to their MP if they res while MCH has no real concerns as TP doesn't exist

I love this idea for giving MCH a revive tool. It would also mean that all the free mobility MCH has is finally worth something. Healers and casters can't move nearly as freely to the oppsite side of an Allaince Raid to rez someone out of range but MCH would suffer no penalty dashing to save them. We have very little if any reason for Physical Ranged Classes to be so carefree with movment. I always thought they should have more tools that require them to move like attacks that do more damage based on proximity whether being close or far. Make movement a part of the rotation if they are going to be so incredibly simple to play. Imagine if Drill did more damage within 5 yalms of the target but Air Anchor required you to be at least 15 yalms away for max damage. Let Reassemble nullify the positional requirements just to be fancy. These small changes would make the class a lot more fun and dynamic to play for me. A positional that isnt affected by the boss spinning that can still be optimized around is engaging. Running to a specific person to revive them and saving a run would feel really good as well. The simple raid wide shield just doesnt feel very rewarding right now and I miss having 'feel-good' utility.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

People who parse aren't playing MCH in the first place, so no worries there.

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They currently hold the second highest spot for having the most parses on fflogs for the current raid tier. It's Bard that you're thinking of. Only Monk has fewer people parsing than them.

https://i.imgur.com/YKrjASQ.png

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Just because a lot of casual players play the job doesn't mean that people who parse are using it. Allow me to correctly use FFLogs, as you are obviously not able to:

When you go into each fight's top speedruns, it gives you a breakdown of the jobs used in the current top 50 runs. Here's MCH's spread:

E5S - Appears in 3 of 50, well behind Dancer and behind bard.
E6S - Appears in 1 of 50, tied with Bard. Rest are obviously Dancer.
E7S - Appears 6 times, with it appearing in double Physranged in current rank 43.
E8S - Appears 10 times. Likely its best fight, but there are still a ton more DNC over it.

So tell me again how MCH is seeing any real use in parsing when Dancer is clearly ahead in all fights? Do I need to go slower for my Crystal folks?

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My screenshot was of savage clears for all 4 of those bosses combined. Apparently savage clears are casual content, and people who post parses of savage clears are not "people who parse." :rolleyes: Inferring that speed runners are the only people parsing is laughable.

As for why DNC is more popular in speed runs specifically, it's because speed runs require more specific party builds that coordinate stacking damage buffs with the highest dps jobs as much as possible so Dancer brings more to a speed run than MCH does since MCH does neither. For example, almost every single one of those runs brings SAM/DNC/BLM/NIN and if anything gets swapped out it's usually the NIN.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Learn to read. The person I was responding to said this:



This implies people who actively parse, aka top level players who do speedruns.

I understand why someone who doesn't do savage would think anyone who uploads anything is "parsing," but let me learn you something here: "Parsing" is people aiming SPECIFICALLY for a parse, not a clear. There is a big difference. As you're not doing either, I hope you've learned something today.

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Okay, I can see that you're just a blowhard then. Welcome to the ignore list. Carry on.

Okay so it seems like quite a bit of ppl like the idea of a res for MCH but the issue is it could be to much of a demand for the job and/or be to easy to use with little consequence.

Some have suggested a cooldown. My thinking is at minimum 120s CD and at maximum 240s. So a free res every 2-4 minutes. Anything more it it becomes mostly useless to have or count on and anything less it could possibly be to powerful.

I think 120s is reasonable personally. An additional 60s cooldown compared to other jobs is a good tradeoff from having no cost to use it whether mp or burning a resource like Swiftcast on it. Also, if it were too long of a cooldown the new meme to replace benediction-superbolide would be mchraise-rdmraise. ;)

It'd be an interesting dynamic, though. MCH always gets first raise and then calls out in the chat log when it's up again so that they get the next first raise, etc.

I can see MCH having a res being within the realm of possibility, it is the gadgeteer after all. But I'm not sure if any non-magic jobs should have a res period since it complicates things on how to balance it on a different role which don't use the same resources needed for a raise. Frankly I'd prefer to see MCH's utility shift towards mitigation and or debuffing. (as it once was in Stormblood)

Aesthetic wise however, it would be hilarious to go up to my pals and shock them wide awake. Just as much as it is fun to shoot people in the face as Gunbreaker to protect them.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

*Gets proven wrong*

"Lol ignored"

How childish. Can't admit when they're wrong. Crystal's best, I suppose.

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>Calling them childish then mocking them for being in a different data centre.

Pot meet kettle.

I'll be honest I miss Dismantle. Using just before tank busters or raid wide aoes but ppl will say "We have Tactician, we don't need Dismantle" and then general consensus that dmg mititagion and debuffing is useless unless it increases rdps.

Edit: Just a little thought but DNC has a heal; Curing Waltz, and BRD can increase healing on a party member; Nature's Minne. So MCH having a res would just help push the idea of ranged physical being a supportive role that helps with party survivability. I'd say if not a res at least give us back Dismantle so we can offer some support.

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Originally Posted by AvenoMatt

I'll be honest I miss Dismantle. Using just before tank busters or raid wide aoes but ppl will say "We have Tactician, we don't need Dismantle" and then general consensus that dmg mititagion and debuffing is useless unless it increases rdps.

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Mitigation helps your healer to DPS. More glare makes WHM happy.
It can also helps your tank in a tight spot, GNB for example.

As for the res cooldown, I'm still on the stance it should be a role action so every ranged could have access to it.
We think about cooldown but we don't think about charges.

For example it could be an ability with 15 mins cooldown but 3 charges, allowing you to res 3 times maximum in a raid.
If MCH would have its own thing compared to Curing Waltz and Nature's Minne, I'd like a raid-wide shield. It's stronger than raw healing and I like shields.

I'm not a big fan of the res being a role action for all ranged since that just makes me wanna ask "Why not just make raise a role action for all caster?" and that a debate in itself.

As for MCH having it's own thing like Nature's Minne and Curing Waltz, I've had the idea of reworking Bishop Autoturret. Basically Bishop would create a field that mitigates 5% of damage as well as heal any party members within it's field. The heal would be a hot something equal to or slightly stronger then Curing Waltz overall. I was thinking that it would be up for 9-15s though I personally prefer 9. The issue with it is that one the field would be small at only 5y much like Bishop's original AOE so ppl gotta get in close to make use of it and we all know how hard it is to get ppl to actually stand in the bubbles. I call it Bishop Auto-Medic.

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Originally Posted by AvenoMatt

I'm not a big fan of the res being a role action for all ranged since that just makes me wanna ask "Why not just make raise a role action for all caster?" and that a debate in itself.

As for MCH having it's own thing like Nature's Minne and Curing Waltz, I've had the idea of reworking Bishop Autoturret. Basically Bishop would create a field that mitigates 5% of damage as well as heal any party members within it's field. The heal would be a hot something equal to or slightly stronger then Curing Waltz overall. I was thinking that it would be up for 9-15s though I personally prefer 9. The issue with it is that one the field would be small at only 5y much like Bishop's original AOE so ppl gotta get in close to make use of it and we all know how hard it is to get ppl to actually stand in the bubbles. I call it Bishop Auto-Medic.

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I'm definitely in for Bishop coming back as a support rather than AoE damages.
Again, I'd love to see it giving shields rather than healing simply for the reason that it would differentiate the "Healing" between all three ranged.
Dancer would provide raw healing, BRD increased healing and MCH shields.

It would have to be a cooldown, a gauge cannot be either damage either support.
Same argument as tank stance in SB, most tanks got their aggro up and completely gave up the tank stance after it was built high enough.

So an FC mate of mine told me that bishop being a shield is pointless since we have tacticians. Why have another defense buff when we have that. Which they do have a point which iis why I think that hot helps give it a little more to make it stand out against tact.

They however still didn't like it but they also only really play ast and don't touch ranged physical lol

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Originally Posted by AvenoMatt

So an FC mate of mine told me that bishop being a shield is pointless since we have tacticians. Why have another defense buff when we have that. Which they do have a point which iis why I think that hot helps give it a little more to make it stand out against tact.

They however still didn't like it but they also only really play ast and don't touch ranged physical lol

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How come they play AST and can say that?
SCH has both shield and damage reduction.
PLD has both shield and damage reduction.
Nin, to an extend, has a shield and self healing.
MNK has Mantra and Feint, two defensive cooldown to help the team.
DNC has a healing and Samba (The cooldown like tactician).

Having two defensive cooldown helps for more mitigation and flexible support.
SCH is down? You can help against strong raidwide damages by using both for the purpose of progressing.

It's all about flexiblity and stronger abilities to help through survival of the party.
And to an extend, help your healer to less focus on healing and have more room to do anything else.

Exactly. They views it as me giving another support skill that takes away healing from healers but that's kinda the point to help the healer so they don't have to heal so much.

Plus the more I've been thinking about what I am really looking to change/add with MCH is more tactful gameplay. Atm you just work on a priority system and use queen, Hypercharge, and Wildfire when it best without overcharging, or clipping into the use of anchor/drill. Once you know what you are doing there or little to think about.

Having support let's you not only contribute more to the party then just dmg but also let's you think and react more to be a better player.

You might as well dump RDM in the trash if they did this. No, MCH does not need a rez. SMN shouldn't even have one anymore honestly. But MCH definitely does not.

MCH has 99 problems, lack of support isnt one of them specifically as redundant as a freaking RES