Reincarnation and Amaurot

So, I know that after the Sundering, the souls in the Underworld/Lifestram are now basically washed clean of their lives memories and then set up for another cycle birth and death, however, when it comes to presundering there was no mention of a soul being reborn. We were only told that a soul could manifest through natural means by the will of the Star. Now where I'm slightly going with this also was that if there was no rebirth or reincarnation could that have been a reason why the Final Days happened. It was a sound from the planet and the in Through his eyes it did pretty much say that in a sense the underworld was downwards, well the description used by the story was Emet could see the souls traveling upward to join the Aether then head straight down to join the underworld.

Also, seeing as how right after that they had to send a soul there due to it raging against its own death and, for lack of a better term, possessing, even if involuntary, the pheonix concept that was created.

It could have been that other souls felt the same way and that ended up causing such a discord that it threw off the entire balance of the Star and created the end of the world. It could also be why, Venat and the others decided to create and summon Hydaelyn due to the fact that while Zodiark saved the world from being destroyed, said balance would have ended uo teetering on the brink again.

Any thoughts on this?

Edit: also instead of the souls rising up it could havr just been the over abundance of souls causing the balance to become a skewed.

Edit 2: if this has been touched upon already I'm sorry, I went through 10 pages of forum history to look but then gave up.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

It could have been that other souls felt the same way and that ended up causing such a discord that it threw off the entire balance of the Star and created the end of the world. It could also be why, Venat and the others decided to create and summon Hydaelyn due to the fact that while Zodiark saved the world from being destroyed, said balance would have ended uo teetering on the brink again.

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Although the details haven't been clarified, the ancients that followed Venat and summoned Hydaelyn claimed they couldn't get the convocation to listen to them about how Zodiark was inevitably just delaying the end of the world and the only solution is to summon Hydaelyn.

So its possible this is what they meant? But we'll have to wait till we know more.

My theory is summoning Zodiark is a drain on the planet's aether which will cause the end of the world, but it the aether being depleted by creation magic was what caused the first end of the world, so in essence they just delayed the end and didn't fix it. And the convocation refusing to listen Venat and followers was a result of tempering, as debate and discussion seems to be pillar of their culture.

We still don't know why the Final Days happened (what the cause of the Sound was). The metaphysics of the cycle of souls is something that's only been lightly touched on so far, but if souls are being reincarnated now I don't see why that wouldn't have been the case beforehand. The approximate line is something along the lines of "souls are a gift from the star to beings born in accordance with the laws of nature," which doesn't rule out older souls being reincarnated.

The problem with Zodiark is that while he may have fixed the symptoms of the issue he did nothing to address its root cause, and the Convocation (sans Azem) didn't seem all that interested in actually fixing said root cause or even finding out what it was. They just wanted to feed new life to Zodiark to bring back the old, which would eventually lead to an utterly stagnant world and still doesn't solve the problem. Hydaelyn was necessary to make sure those living in the present are allowed to create their own futures rather than being doomed to exist as livestock to feed Zodiark; however I'm pretty sure she wasn't inteded to be a permanent solution either.

I know that it doesn't rule out reincarnation being a part of the presundered world, but it also doesn't mean that it did either. All in all this was just me having random thoughts about what could maybe have happened *shrugs* I just thought it could be an interesting notion ^_^

Hydaelyn was never a solution to the underlying problem (the sound).
Her entire purpose was to serve as shackles to Zodiark, to stop him from being fed the 'new life' as fuel to bring back the Ancients.

She doesn't solve the original problem in any way. She's merely the result of a "rogue" group (the people "For" Hydaelyn were a minority, it wasn't a 50-50 split, though we don't know for sure how lopsided it was, could've been 60-40, could've been 70-30, etc.. but they were in the minority, as per the Anyder instance...) working to put a halt on the Convocation's plan of using the new life as essentially livestock/fuel.

It's hard to say whether or not the "sound" persists in some manner, because Zodiark was summoned to "rewrite the laws of reality", and we don't know exactly what that did.

Either way, Hydaelyn was never the solution. Primals never are. They were both born of desperation.

Yes I know exactly as to why she was summoned by Venat and the rogue group. They saw that Zodiark did not stop the issue that caused the sound summoned her to stop it from happening again as well as to enervate him, ie weaken him.

This whole thing I posted is more of a what if and just a theory craft that I was thinking about due to not seeing anything mentioned or atleast out right mentioned about souls being reincarnated prior to the sundering.

Ie: a soul dies and rages against the heavens due to regret and anger from dying, just like the soul that ended up merging with the conceptual pheonix that was created by Lahabrea and his academics. We don't know if there are any other souls to that extent that were just wandering around in the underworld and ended up building pressure over time like a pressure cooker with the top on wrong causing it to explode.

Or just too many souls trapped there doing the same thing. With that happening, the influx of souls (who if only their aether was used to summon Zodiark to stop the Final Days,) would build up said pressure again as well as the convocations plan to offer up even more souls to get their lost loved one back could in turn cause the exact same issue to happen. Remember, we can never put an exact ratio on how many people or "mortals" they would consider the "equivalent exchange" to what would be needed to bring just one of the Amaurotines back to life including said soul or if this new life would willingly volunteer to give up their lives for the ones gave before.

Also if the introduction of reincarnation wasn't brought in post sundering, all some of the Amaurotines had to do was just until the cycle happened again and counted among those who could see the hue of souls help them to find lost loved ones those people being like Emet-selch or Hythlodaeus.

Again, just a theory and thoughts of mine *shrugs* not going to say I believe it 100% just as an interesting idea.

Edit: btw I feel like I can also blame this slightly on binge watching Ancient Aliens with my father the past week.

Adding here, we really have no evidence that the "new life" populated by Zodiark was sapient. I think people draw that conclusion because of the current dynamic and say "Well that new life was us", but in fact we have no reason to think the life Zodiark created pre-Sundering was equivalent to the modern life in any way.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Adding here, we really have no evidence that the "new life" populated by Zodiark was sapient. I think people draw that conclusion because of the current dynamic and say "Well that new life was us", but in fact we have no reason to think the life Zodiark created pre-Sundering was equivalent to the modern life in any way.

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Are you meaning for sapient as relating to the human species or the other meaning of it which is wise or attempting to appear wise?

Or are you meaning in terms of sentience?

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Ie: a soul dies and rages against the heavens due to regret and anger from dying, just like the soul that ended up merging with the conceptual pheonix that was created by Lahabrea and his academics. We don't know if there are any other souls to that extent that were just wandering around in the underworld and ended up building pressure over time like a pressure cooker with the top on wrong causing it to explode.

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I feel like the short story with Phoenix is to plant the idea that Louisoix is associated with Ancients in some way.

Maybe this is a stretch, but what if Louisoix was Venat? Or Hythlodaeus? What if the "railing against life" quote is the artistic flourish to justify their association?

The short story also skips the exposition of who created Phoenix other then they worked in the "Words of Lahabrea" (which more like a work department?), but could that creator be associated with the Hydaelyn faction--could that have been Venat?

To my final question, is reincarnation not a thing of the past (I believe it was said the Ancients were immortal) and could it have started after Hydaelyn fractured the world?

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Originally Posted by Kesey

The short story also skips the exposition of who created Phoenix other then they worked in the "Words of Lahabrea" (which more like a work department?), but could that creator be associated with the Hydaelyn faction--could that have been Venat?

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This year's third story (Ere our curtain falls) confirms the Creator had been Lahabrea.

Yeah i said that about pheonix due to Lahabrea being a good concept maker see Ifrita... so good point on that one...

And now I really need to reread ere our curtain falls for a 3rd or 4th time thank you Rica

The reincarnation bit is why that theory popped up in my head. We dont know completely so its neither confirmed or denied ^_^

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

This year's third story (Ere our curtain falls) confirms the Creator had been Lahabrea.

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I had to go back and read this one, because I missed that line, but you are correct.

This association with Phoenix being created by Lahabrea, which is what Louisoix becomes after interacting with 12 (and those 12 might be 12 Ancients), meanwhile Lahabrea looks on in the flashback echo to the battle of Cartenaeu laughing because he got the 7th calamity off without a hitch. Too much is lining up in this area, like as if our understanding of what transpired there is suspect to a new point of view or reexplanation.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Are you meaning for sapient as relating to the human species or the other meaning of it which is wise or attempting to appear wise?

Or are you meaning in terms of sentience?

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Sentience just means a being that is receptive to perception and feeling. All animals are sentient. Sapience means the capability for deeper comprehension and thought, like human beings. So yes, what I'm saying is we have no evidence the life that was to be sacrificed had human-level intellect.

Sapience has nothing to do with human like intellect though since you seem to be drawing not from the meaning of it being of the human species. You're equating it to wisdom and being wise... remember a human can be an intellectual and have absolutely no wisdom at all or even a child can be wiser than an adult.

To address your point about not being on a level as a human being you are correct we do not know, however we can infer to the life that was on the presundered star. Which Ere our Curtain Falls, shows that there was a human like setting of life prior and, in some of the other languages translating it as mortals, who were, for one Island, at the point of the, ( and this is putting it at the furthest it can be) to the agricultural revolution age and had villages as well as living in a community. I myself can not see Zodiark creating said ameobas and allowing for evolution to take place again naturally. (Especially if we compare it to the time frame of how real life evolution took place on earth).

The use of "wisdom" in the context of sapience isn't sagacity, in the sense of "wise old man passing down knowledge and teachings", but instead the ability for insight, introspection, active judgement, forethought, and comprehension, IE the indicators for intelligence beyond the instinctual, things which are important for human-level intelligence. When people say "sentience" to mean "some thinking and reasoning being of at least equitable level to humans", the actual word for that is sapience.

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I myself can not see Zodiark creating said ameobas and allowing for evolution to take place again naturally.

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I don't know about his initial recreation being microscopic life exactly, but we are told directly that their plan was to allow life to propagate naturally on it's own until their was more than enough for them to sacrifice part of it to restore their people. The point I'm making is that we're never given any indication that this life that was meant to propagate was that of the intelligent or human-like variety. If we want to speak in terms of logistics here, the sort of life that would spread the fastest and not take too much from the environment would probably not be humanoid, but instead various kinds of plantlife.
I will say that Zodiark probably did need to create microscopic forms of life in addition to whatever else though, because from what we're told of the nature of the calamity every living thing was dying.