Question: Relics first? Extreme primals last?

Just so that we make it clear to the devs; would you guys prefer if we didn't get the extreme primals immediately and would instead get the relic quest in the beginning of the patch cycle? Then at the end of the patch cycle we get the extreme primals with higher ilevel weapons?
I would not mind this, relics from the start of the patch would actually keep the casuals around. It would also in a sense give the normal trials of that patch a lot of breathing room as they'd be the only version we can fight until 2 months later when the extremes make their debut.

Their project allocation schedule and creation for the next expansion is probably well under way but there's still time to influence what happens in 6.1 and beyond. Interested to know which side people fall on.

But extreme fights are casual content at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

But extreme fights are casual content at the end of the day.

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Not true.

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Originally Posted by Tint

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Weapons and ilevel, they would "cancel" each other out. Having relics 2 months later gives people the illusion that farming extreme primal weapons now is worth the time/investment. Then you throw in the tomestome weapon and it's 3 choices at the same time, it's why they divide them into "one immediately, and one 2 months later."

You can say not true as much as you want. Changes nothing, is casual content.

I'm only using the same amount of effort you're using in claiming that it is casual content. Casuals are not the ones clearing Seat of sacrifice, that much I can guarantee you, unless they're carried by 7 non-casuals.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

I'm only using the same amount of effort you're using in claiming that it is casual content. Casuals are not the ones clearing Seat of sacrifice, that much I can guarantee you, unless they're carried by 7 non-casuals.

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I'm a casual player and I cleared it. The friend I generally play with is an extremely casual player (only has one class leveled up to 80 for example) and FFXIV is his first MMO. He also manages to clear all extremes fights so far in this expansion (and a few savage too).

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I'm a casual player and I cleared it. The friend I generally play with is an extremely casual player (only has one class leveled up to 80 for example) and FFXIV is his first MMO. He also manages to clear all extremes fights so far in this expansion (and a few savage too).

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People that can clear extremes are the same ones that can clear all savage (except maybe the 4th duty). Savage raiders are considered the "hardcore crowd."
Just because you think you're casual doesn't meant that you really are.
Also, I'm not talking about you and your friend clearing Hades now in patch 5.3. I'm talking about casuals clearing things like Hades and Seat of sacrifice when they're relevant, the first 2 months they come out.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

People that can clear extremes are the same ones that can clear all savage (except maybe the 4th duty). Savage raiders are considered the "hardcore crowd."
Just because you think you're casual doesn't meant that you really are.

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You are mixing being casual with being "not good" at the game.


P.S: We cleared extremes when it was relevant.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I'm a casual player and I cleared it. The friend I generally play with is an extremely casual player (only has one class leveled up to 80 for example) and FFXIV is his first MMO. He also manages to clear all extremes fights so far in this expansion (and a few savage too).

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You and your friend are what is know as "Midcore" in actuality not "casuals."

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Originally Posted by Driavna

You are mixing being casual with being "not good" at the game.


P.S: We cleared extremes when it was relevant.

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Once again, it's people having 2 opinions on what denotes "casual, mid core, hardcore"


To me it's always been time spent. Casual players spend the least amount of time playing while hardcore players spend the most.


I am a hardcore player, but a casual raider.

I have 3 2.5 hour raid nights. I have cleared the 4th savage floor, and am doing ultimate. But I am not in a hardcore or even midcore static. We are casual.


However, I am definitely hardcore when it comes to xiv in general. I have 15000 hours logged on my character since 2010, I play most days. I have done nearly all content available. Been to nearly every fanfest.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

You are mixing being casual with being "not good" at the game.


P.S: We cleared extremes when it was relevant.

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No I don't. You can't just bring any level 80 out of the streets and clear Seat of Sacrifice with them. It takes a more dedicated type of player to clear that trial, thus not a casual.

As someone who rarely does Extreme Primals when they're new I'd prefer it if they released the relic steps earlier instead, but thats just my preferrance and hardly seems fair to the mid- to hardcore players who have little enough "current" content at most times as it is.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

No I don't. You can't just bring any level 80 out of the streets and clear Seat of Sacrifice with them. It takes a more dedicated type of player to clear that trial, thus not a casual.

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No, that's just skill. You can play the game very seldomly and be skilled, just like all the people who play lots and aren't skilled.


We need to stop using terms that apply to time spent as skill level.


We need to stop calling bad players casuals. We need to go back to calling them what we should have been all along. The unskilled players.

Not sure you can truely consider relic casual anyway, sure its not difficult, but still a hell of grind, with as much if not more time and effect than savage or ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No, that's just skill. You can play the game very seldomly and be skilled, just like all the people who play lots and aren't skilled.


We need to stop using terms that apply to time spent as skill level.


We need to stop calling bad players casuals. We need to go back to calling them what we should have been all along. The unskilled players.

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Indeed, the mmorpg community has had a really hard time with these terms.
I'll agree the skilled/unskilled definition of the 2 types of players that exist in mmos. However, people act dumb, they know things like extremes are not meant for the "unskilled," which is the majority of the subscribers. Which in turn is why they should give them something to do first, they're the first kind of people that will let the subscriptions lapse, as they are not that dedicated to the game in the first place.

The "skilled" ones are the ones who live at the bleeding edge, who can still do Eden 8 savage until the Extremes come out 2 months later.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Not sure you can truely consider relic casual anyway, sure its not difficult, but still a hell of grind, with as much if not more time and effect than savage or ultimate.

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Yes, if people were around during A realm reborn or Heavensward they'd understand that just 1 relic would take a casual who only plays maybe 4 hours a day 4-5 days a week 2 months or more to complete 1 relic step.
And that's exactly the point, this keeps casuasl busy. Just expecting them to do roulettes every day is borderline torture.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Indeed, the mmorpg community has had a really hard time with these terms.
I'll agree the skilled/unskilled definition of the 2 types of players that exist in mmos. However, people act dumb, they know things like extremes are not meant for the "unskilled," which is the majority of the subscribers.

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The problem is that skill is a spectrum not a binary and not all casuals are unskilled and not all hardcore players are skilled.

The Casual/Hardcore descriptions was originally present as a description of how a player participated in content rather than an amount played description. You can play a game casually nearly constantly (like a fair amount of RPers) and you can play a game hardcore for a limited amount of time each week (like many savage raiders and PvPers).

The main problem is that some players do not want to be considered "Hardcore" due to the negative connotations associated with the term (things like "no life," "elitist," etc.) which is how you end up with Hardcore raiders who consider them selves Casuals because they "only" spend 7.5 hours each week reclearing the current raids.

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Which in turn is why they should give them something to do first, they're the first kind of people that will let the subscriptions lapse, as they are not that dedicated to the game in the first place.

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Subscriptions lapsing happens even with Hardcore players. A fair number of Hardcore raiders actually stop playing after their statics have gotten all the gear they need until the next big Ultimate or Savage raid comes out.

Casual players on the other hand are more likely to actually have stuff they are slowly doing without rushing.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

You can say not true as much as you want. Changes nothing, is casual content.

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Just because you say something is true, doesn't mean it is.

To many, EX content is not casual content because they have Enrage timers and DPS checks, one shot kill mechanics. If anything I'd call it mid tier content between normal raids and savage.

IMHO:

Dungeons / Normal 8 mans / Normal 24 mans > Casual

EX content / Unreal > Mid Tier

Savage > Upper Tier

Ultimate > Top Tier

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Subscriptions lapsing happens even with Hardcore players. A fair number of Hardcore raiders actually stop playing after their statics have gotten all the gear they need until the next big Ultimate or Savage raid comes out.

Casual players on the other hand are more likely to actually have stuff they are slowly doing without rushing.

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In my experience the opposite is true.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Once again, it's people having 2 opinions on what denotes "casual, mid core, hardcore"


To me it's always been time spent. Casual players spend the least amount of time playing while hardcore players spend the most.


I am a hardcore player, but a casual raider.

I have 3 2.5 hour raid nights. I have cleared the 4th savage floor, and am doing ultimate. But I am not in a hardcore or even midcore static. We are casual.


However, I am definitely hardcore when it comes to xiv in general. I have 15000 hours logged on my character since 2010, I play most days. I have done nearly all content available. Been to nearly every fanfest.

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My main thing here is people mixing casual/hardcore (the time you are willing to commit) with the personal skill level required to clear something.

Examples of hardcore content:

- SKybuilders ranking
- Hunt achievements

No, this is fine. It allows the people who commit to clearing harder content early access to better gear, but then gives those who aren't as interested in that access to better gear later on. Besides, Bozja is presumably going to be more substantial than a single ex fight, so it's understandable that they are releasing it later rather than at launch (if you agree that spreading out content over a few months rather than frontloading everything is a good idea)

It blows my mind how the definition of Casual, Midcore, and Hardcore has changed over the the last 16yrs.

In my eyes it is combination between midset and playtime. Skill or Experience has NOTHING to do with skill.

I would define it as this:

Someone playing <15hrs a week is playing the game casually. If they clear all the content and have top parses on all the logs but only play 10hrs a week.... they are still playing the game casually. They are just really really good. In fact at this point most the best players are playing extremely casually because they beat everything already.
Someone playing between 15 and 40 is playing midcore. Again could be good or bad. That does not effect it.
Someone playing 40hrs+ a week is playing the game hardcore. If they struggle to beat normal mode trials. They are still playing hardcore they are just really really bad.

I will say the casual mindset is I just want to chill after work and have fun. Who cares if we win or lose it is the fun that matters. The whole "Btw I have to leave the ex fight at 9pm, me and my friends are doing a screen shot contest in Kugani then we are farming pony mounts to complete our sets." Casuals tend to focus on fluff content: Mounts, Glamours, Titles, Achievements.

The hardcore mindset is ok savage raid is coming out in 2 weeks. Does everyone have their 5 days of PTO in. We start at 8am est, break for 1 hr 12 to 1, and then raid from 1 to 5 with a break to 6 then stop at midnight. Starting Tuesday ending the following Tuesday. If anyone has an issue say something now so we can find a rep for you in the group. Hardcores tend to focus on progression. Sorta an extreme example... but you get the idea.

As for the hardcores playing and casual taking breaks.... it is the exact opposite in my experience from arr to now. Casuals and new players are the only ones with stuff to do ingame still. This game is almost purely designed for the casual weekend warrior... they are the only ones who will never run out of stuff to do.

So...we gonna go back to OP's idea or derail fully into definitions?


I'm for having both, btw

Not really? It's the same concept as savage. people who are capable of doing harder content get to reap the benefits of better rewards early, where those unable to complete said content can play catch-up in later content.

But the reality is, EX primals are also infinitely easier to develop than current Relic content is, which is why Relic content in SB/SHB is set back further than HW & ARR were; they require more dev time. Those normal modes are going to be in the game already on patch release; an extreme trial already has half the work done for it in which it uses the same arena, model, animations, etc as its normal equivalent; while also overlapping multiple mechanics. Relic content like Eureka/Bhulzja is much grander scope, requiring the development of an entire zone's worth of detail, multiple fates/skirmishes, models, triggers, NPCs, dialogue, story writing, etc.

Delaying an EX trial isn't suddenly going to make Relic content release earlier. It just means we have no EX trial on patch release, AND no relic content. If you want relic content to release faster, you want to ask the devs to change it back to how it was in HW/ARR: Not introducing brand new zones, Grinding old content ad nauseum to cap your tomestones 100x over to buy all of -x- number of items to upgrade. If the only actual 'content' that has to be developed for the relic is just the weapon models and quest dialogue/triggers like in HW/ARR and making it re-use all the other content in the game for it's actual battle 'content', it'll come out much sooner.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

Not really? It's the same concept as savage. people who are capable of doing harder content get to reap the benefits of better rewards early, where those unable to complete said content can play catch-up in later content.

But the reality is, EX primals are also infinitely easier to develop than current Relic content is, which is why Relic content in SB/SHB is set back further than HW & ARR were; they require more dev time. Those normal modes are going to be in the game already on patch release; an extreme trial already has half the work done for it in which it uses the same arena, model, animations, etc as its normal equivalent; while also overlapping multiple mechanics. Relic content like Eureka/Bhulzja is much grander scope, requiring the development of an entire zone's worth of detail, multiple fates/skirmishes, models, triggers, NPCs, dialogue, story writing, etc.

Delaying an EX trial isn't suddenly going to make Relic content release earlier. It just means we have no EX trial on patch release, AND no relic content. If you want relic content to release faster, you want to ask the devs to change it back to how it was in HW/ARR: Not introducing brand new zones, Grinding old content ad nauseum to cap your tomestones 100x over to buy all of -x- number of items to upgrade. If the only actual 'content' that has to be developed for the relic is just the weapon models and quest dialogue/triggers like in HW/ARR and making it re-use all the other content in the game for it's actual battle 'content', it'll come out much sooner.

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Not exactly.
That's called project management and asset allocation. The relic quest project can be allocated at to be at the start of the pipeline instead of at the end, it's a matter of shifting it around. If it's not clear I can draw a picture to show how it would work as we go into the next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

It blows my mind how the definition of Casual, Midcore, and Hardcore has changed over the the last 16yrs...

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Indeed. It would seem that those who clear the most difficult content believe they are the ones to move the goalposts. It's not something I really choose to argue against since I don't prog savage or ultimate. I can see why a savage raider would feel this way. It simplifies things to refer to all content outside current raid tier as casual, but that term has negative connotations to it that make players feel like their attempts or clears of the higher end duties that are not current to be trivial.

For players who feel that way, I wouldn't let it get to you. "Casual" in this game doesn't mean it's easy. It just means it's not the current tier of stuff that is being progressed. However, what I will say is that any content that I feel is not easy, I am also not going to approach it casually.

It would also seem that "casual" serves a double entendre. It can refer to the content, and the player. You can find casual players in highend content, and savage raiders in casual content. Then from there are these varying degrees of how casual, and how hardcore a player is. It's a bit of a spectrum that all of us lie on somewhere.