What exactly do we know as of 5.3 about the sound that was heard before Amaurot fell?

I'm trying to compile some lore for this particular question, yet am running into a few walls between not knowing what cutscenes to re-watch and if I'm even misremembering what happened to begin with. The wikia isn't helpful at all either sadly... :(

Could someone please give me a run down of what we know?? When did it happen? DID it happen or am I misremembering it? If it did how long until the destruction began? Etc. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. <3

Pretty sure the extent of what we know is from Emet-Selch's recounting of the Final Days of Amaurot in the eponymous dungeon from back in 5.0. Though admittedly my interest in the story has largely waned, so I could've missed some mention in Anamnesis Anyder or forgotten details and such. Sound came from the earth, Ancients' creation magicks started going haywire and giving birth to their fears and nightmares, rocks fall and most everyone dies. In so far as I am aware, they've yet to elaborate in any way on what the sound is supposed to be, with the only possible source of potential information off the top of my head being the Scions' trip to Anamnesis Anyder since the MSQ has largely been more concerned with getting the Scions back to the Source than anything. I seem to recall mention that the calamity which befell the Ancients started on the "mainland" and took some time before it reached Amaurot. Long enough that rumours of what was happening abounded and they'd (the folks at Akadaemia Anyder) gathered specimens to research.

We have no new information on what the Sound was since 5.0. All we know is what it did. There are various theories floating around on what it could be, but we have nothing concrete as of this moment. We're basically going to have to wait for 5.4 at the earliest, 6.0 at the latest to get more info on the Sound.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Pretty sure the extent of what we know is from Emet-Selch's recounting of the Final Days of Amaurot in the eponymous dungeon from back in 5.0. Though admittedly my interest in the story has largely waned, so I could've missed some mention in Anamnesis Anyder or forgotten details and such. Sound came from the earth, Ancients' creation magicks started going haywire and giving birth to their fears and nightmares, rocks fall and most everyone dies. In so far as I am aware, they've yet to elaborate in any way on what the sound is supposed to be, with the only possible source of potential information off the top of my head being the Scions' trip to Anamnesis Anyder since the MSQ has largely been more concerned with getting the Scions back to the Source than anything. I seem to recall mention that the calamity which befell the Ancients started on the "mainland" and took some time before it reached Amaurot. Long enough that rumours of what was happening abounded and they'd (the folks at Akadaemia Anyder) gathered specimens to research.

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Awesome, thank you for your help!

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

We have no new information on what the Sound was since 5.0. All we know is what it did. There are various theories floating around on what it could be, but we have nothing concrete as of this moment. We're basically going to have to wait for 5.4 at the earliest, 6.0 at the latest to get more info on the Sound.

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Alright so I didn't miss anything extra then, thank you for the help!

To add to this, I think it was implied that this Sound was in response to the overuse of creation magic by the Ancients.

Here's my theory: The Sound was brought into being as a result of the Ancient's creation magics. The way it's described, the very nature of life and the aetherial sea became endemic to living things - The Lifestream literally started killing itself, and wherever the noise screamed (And indeed it appears to have systematically targeted every civilization on the planet one by one), all life in the area started twisting and dying in horrible ways. People tend to speculate that the Sound was some sort of defense mechanism from the planet, activated due to the transgressions of the Ancients breaking the cycle of life and death, but from the fact that the entire world would have been rendered a lifeless husk without the Ancient's intervention, I think we can rule that out.

Now, we're told that a single stray thought can bring about unexpected results when the Ancients were creating, and that seemingly all of them, even as small children, are inherently capable of that sort of magic. From what we're told of how it works, isn't it possible, then, that the Ancients may have created things unknowingly, unconsciously? That something may have been born from thoughts, feelings, or desires that they were not actively aware of? Something that may have accumulated over time, stirring in the depths of the Lifestream, until finally one day awakening and bringing an end to all things?

Two more particular details stuck out to me when reaching this conclusion - First, both Emet-Selch and Elidibus (His lyrics especially) heavily imply that it was the ancient's own sins that ruined them. Secondly, that Venat states the Convocation's solution was not permanent, and wouldn't last. We take it as a given that this describes Zodiark and the necessity for sacrifices, but in reality this does not explain why they summoned Hydaelyn with the capability to sunder the world, and split the souls of all things into lesser forms. Could it be the true purpose of this was not only to kill Zodiark, but instead to ensure that creation magic would forevermore remain beyond the reach of any sapient beings?

Such a proposition as I've described also ties neatly back into the first main conflict of the Primals. Effectively, they come about because of man's self-destructive nature, a result of a self-perpetuating cycle of violence.

Lastly, going into truly radical speculation here, but I think at least some of the Convocation were (at some point) enthralled to whatever force the Sound was. With what we now know about the Calamities and Rejoinings, many of their earlier plans, well, they don't make sense.

What does Lahabrea instigating the summoning of Primals have to do with the Ascian's long term plans to rejoin the First with a Calamity of Light? In 1.0 it had a purpose, to empower Dalamud and bring about a Calamity of Darkness of all aspected elements together, but he continued it in 2.0 - In fact he drastically stepped it up and provoked way more summonings than ever before. And as we now know, summonings are a very primitive form of creation magic. This was also partially used (Though importantly, continued afterwards regardless) to empower the Heart of Sabik, which Lahabrea describes as a "sliver of my god's power".

It tends to be overlooked, but when Lahabrea is describing all this, and the necessity of Primal summonings to resurrect "the one true god", he never names Zodiark. And what is Ultima, something which is created by the fragment of his god? A form of magic described as endemic to creation, defying the laws of reality, something which should not exist. And, what is the raid storyline introduced off the back of this ending? The Coils, where it's revealed that a sufficiently powerful Primal is capable of overwriting the tempering of others. And now who are our modern antagonists? Right, two guys who quite literally just want to cause as much death and destruction as possible, one of whom is seemingly described as the beast of the apocalypse, who has seen the Final Days of Amaurot with perfect clarity every night since he was a child even before acquiring the Resonant, a guy who says this,

https://i.imgur.com/150g0B1.png

While we only know so much about the Sound, Zenos could not be a more perfect living incarnation of the force it's described as.

I do not consider that the Ancients' use of creation magicks was the cause of the Sound and the Terminus; Y'shtola notes that they had enough intrinsecal aether to do that without harming the Lifestream, and whenever they needed to do greater things, they resorted to their own life energy, like the researcher in Akadaemia Anyder who surrenders his very soul in summoning Quetzalcoatl, or the collective summoning of Zodiark. The sins of the Ancients, the way I see it, are more related to being responsible of the greatest catastrophe in mankind's history: the cycle of eternal war and mistrust. Zodiark's summoning upset the balance, aye, but I would argue that was the only solution they had for what it was coming, and it was Hydaelyn's summoning what caused the first war in history, because fear had taken root in the Ancients. Fear of the unknown (at this point it was unknown, because Venat and her followers knew not what Zodiark might do, and yet they were willing to, and they were well aware, doom their people) begets violence. And it has been mostly the cause of many, many wars; to put it in Emet-Selch's words: "A war without knowledge of the enemy is no war—it is mere bloodletting."

But I digress. What I consider interesting is something that is generally overlooked and it could be a clue about the nature of the Sound and the Terminus: the DNC quest, specifically the Kriegstanz and the Totentanz. The "dance of the damned" is negative feelings taking hold of people and controlling their bodies, and the Kriegstanz forces those energies out, and curiously, the forms they take are eerily similar to the Terminus monstrosities. Now, the narration of Amaurot mentions a passage of the Book of Revelations that goes more or less like: "But it was neither fang or claw, but our very sins, stacked to the heavens where they took root." The Ancients' society tried actively to get rid of any negative feeling, to foment peace and cooperation, but going by Azem's role, they were not strangers to issues and threats. Perhaps, subconsciously, they "stacked to the heavens" their fears until they burst and caused the Terminus and the Sound, which could be the collective suffering and fear of the Ancients throughout the ages that they cast aside. We would need further insight into the Ancient society, true, but to me that sounds (no pun intended) rather similar to the Totentanz phenomena.

One thing that I find kind of interesting is that there's no indication that Emet or any of the Convocation had ANY CURIOUSITY AT ALL about what the Sound was, what was causing it, or how to stop it. They're all, "Yup, it all started with the Sound," but from that point on they do nothing but talk about the damage control.

I'm guessing that the whole reason the Dissenters stood against the Convocation is because they had a better understanding of the Sound, and realized that the Convocation's plan was not going to accomplish anything to solve the underlying problem.

The Sound is one of the great remaining mysteries of the Final Days, and I doubt we've heard the last about it.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

One thing that I find kind of interesting is that there's no indication that Emet or any of the Convocation had ANY CURIOUSITY AT ALL about what the Sound was, what was causing it, or how to stop it. They're all, "Yup, it all started with the Sound," but from that point on they do nothing but talk about the damage control.

I'm guessing that the whole reason the Dissenters stood against the Convocation is because they had a better understanding of the Sound, and realized that the Convocation's plan was not going to accomplish anything to solve the underlying problem.

The Sound is one of the great remaining mysteries of the Final Days, and I doubt we've heard the last about it.

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I doubt it were Venat and her followers who had a better plan. The Convocation was formed of the greatest sages of their kind, and if they did not know, then the dissenters probably did not have more knowledge. Their priority with Hydaelyn was subduing Zodiark, they mention nothing of the Sound. As for the Convocation, I assume they had their hands full on trying to prevent the ongoing catastrophe.

I would say, if anyone might have had any idea about the Sound's origins and the determination to quell it, that would be Azem. It was part of their role as Wanderer, to know the star and any threat to it. If Hydaelyn had meant to be a solution, Azem would have not rejected Venat's invitation to join them. No, I think Azem set out to find the origin of the Terminus, but as we know, whatever they might have uncovered was lost when they were sundered. Yet, who knows. Perhaps the key resides in us and whatever memories of Azem we possibly regain. That would be certainly interesting.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

To add to this, I think it was implied that this Sound was in response to the overuse of creation magic by the Ancients.

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This is what I've always assumed. Their magic pushed the world too far.

That was also my assumption as well, and that by extension the fate of Aumarot read more of greek warning on hubris as a result.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

I would say, if anyone might have had any idea about the Sound's origins and the determination to quell it, that would be Azem. It was part of their role as Wanderer, to know the star and any threat to it. If Hydaelyn had meant to be a solution, Azem would have not rejected Venat's invitation to join them. No, I think Azem set out to find the origin of the Terminus, but as we know, whatever they might have uncovered was lost when they were sundered. Yet, who knows. Perhaps the key resides in us and whatever memories of Azem we possibly regain. That would be certainly interesting.

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It'd be very interesting if we had discovered it, and revealed it to Hydaelyn right before we were Sundered. Remember, Midgardsormr had a pact with Hydaelyn and was protecting something in Silvertear Lake, whatever is there is incredibly important to what's going on. Whether that's the path to Hydaelyn herself, the seal to the cause of the Sound, or something else entirely is the question.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It'd be very interesting if we had discovered it, and revealed it to Hydaelyn right before we were Sundered. Remember, Midgardsormr had a pact with Hydaelyn and was protecting something in Silvertear Lake, whatever is there is incredibly important to what's going on. Whether that's the path to Hydaelyn herself, the seal to the cause of the Sound, or something else entirely is the question.

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Hmm. The equivalent of Silvertear Lake in the First is called "the Source". I doubt Azem would have told Hydaelyn anything, they were neutral and if anything I would have seen them telling their former comrades in the Convocation rather than Venat. But it could be possible that you are onto something. Actually, if you dive into the Source Lake, there are strange crystalline structures near the string of isles of Sullen. To me, there are two main possibilities: 1) the Source is where Hydaelyn dive-kicked Zodiark and sundered the star, being some sort of shared link between the shards, 2) it is the literal "Source" of the Sound. Both possibilities are relevant enough to have Sormr as a guardian there.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

I would say, if anyone might have had any idea about the Sound's origins and the determination to quell it, that would be Azem. It was part of their role as Wanderer, to know the star and any threat to it. If Hydaelyn had meant to be a solution, Azem would have not rejected Venat's invitation to join them. No, I think Azem set out to find the origin of the Terminus, but as we know, whatever they might have uncovered was lost when they were sundered. Yet, who knows. Perhaps the key resides in us and whatever memories of Azem we possibly regain. That would be certainly interesting.

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I'm glad you mentioned this. Since we know that 6.0 is culminating the end of season 1 of the Warrior of Light and subsequent expansions will be a season 2 story, I wonder if the whole Hydaelyn/Zodiark story ends with us realizing who we are and our importance; only to know that the big bad of season 2 will be our true purpose.

Essentially, season 1 is our origin story. Season 2 is where we have real villian/evil we need to face.

We haven't learned anything new, but to recap what we do know about the Sound:

• It started somewhere outside Amaurot.
• It spread in some manner; whether radially or like a contagion is unknown.
• It came from the Planet itself, before Zodiark existed as its "will made manifest."
• It caused the Ancients' creation magicks to go haywire, involuntarily forcing them to invoke creation spells making their deepest, darkest fears manifest.
• When it reached Amaurot, it basically caused the apocalypse.
• It was finally halted by Zodiark's summoning, which consumed the lives of half of the Ancients still alive at that point.

Everything else is just speculation, but to throw my two cents in...

I am of the mind that it may have been a reaction from the planet to the Ancients' hubris. Even in contemporary times the few that remained were extremely arrogant until their defeat; adding to this is that Amaurotine civilization takes many cues from Thomas More's Utopia (its existence as a utopia in Emet-Selch's memory; Amaurot; Hythlodaeus; Anyder) - a place that cannot exist in reality. It also has a smattering of Greek in it (Therion the "Chthonic Riddle;" Hades; several Greek words such as Akademia and Utopia), which lends credence to the idea of hubris being a part of the Ancients' downfall (a recurring theme in Greek myth).

The Ancients' refusal to try and understand the Sound, and in so doing try to prevent a recurrence of the phenomenon, is what peeves me the most about how they handled the situation. Instead of learning from the event they just tried to go back to the way things were before. Again, this ties back into their hubris - those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, and the Ancients didn't even appear to want to learn any sort of lesson from the Sound.

Considering G'raha's 5.3 closing narration mentions a "beast" and the "apocalypse," I have little doubt the Sound will factor in going forward; but we still know next to nothing about it. (Given modern peoples aren't nearly as well-versed in creation magicks, would it affect them the same way it affected the Ancients?)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Considering G'raha's 5.3 closing narration mentions a "beast" and the "apocalypse," I have little doubt the Sound will factor in going forward; but we still know next to nothing about it. (Given modern peoples aren't nearly as well-versed in creation magicks, would it affect them the same way it affected the Ancients?)

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I mean they could have set the "apocalypse" in motion and Zodiark stopped it. Our defeat of Zodiark (I'm not alone in thinking this showdown is coming, right?) may set it off again. Destroying the great evil only to reveal the greater evil behind it huge jrpg trope. Guess we'll wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I mean they could have set the "apocalypse" in motion and Zodiark stopped it. Our defeat of Zodiark (I'm not alone in thinking this showdown is coming, right?) may set it off again. Destroying the great evil only to reveal the greater evil behind it huge jrpg trope. Guess we'll wait and see.

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Maybe, maybe not. Zodiark himself is not malevolent; if anything he's benign, the problem with him having been that the Ascians wanted commit genocide / omnicide times over in order to resurrect the dead. Now that the Unsundered are gone, and the sole known active Ascian apparently isn't interested in bringing back Amaurot, letting Zodiark off his chains might be permissible if he doesn't interfere with the material plane... and Zenos weren't interested in devouring him for power.

What gives me apocalypse vibes going forward is the last boss of Amaurot: Therion, the "Chthonic Riddle." Therion is another moniker for the Beast of Revelation from the Bible's Book of the same name; the connection draws itself.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Maybe, maybe not. Zodiark himself is not malevolent; if anything he's benign, the problem with him having been that the Ascians wanted commit genocide / omnicide times over in order to resurrect the dead. Now that the Unsundered are gone, and the sole known active Ascian apparently isn't interested in bringing back Amaurot, letting Zodiark off his chains might be permissible if he doesn't interfere with the material plane... and Zenos weren't interested in devouring him for power.

What gives me apocalypse vibes going forward is the last boss of Amaurot: Therion, the "Chthonic Riddle." Therion is another moniker for the Beast of Revelation from the Bible's Book of the same name; the connection draws itself.

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There is too Therion's boss epithet: "Chthonic" comes from Greek root meaning "of the earth / land". So the title could be loosely translated as "Therion, Riddle of the Land". We see several Therions gleefully spaming laser beams just before getting to the fight with the Terminus Bellweather (the second boss) so apparently there were more than one, but seemingly they were the worse of the Terminus monstrosities. Their epithet directly connects them with the Sound emanating from the land or beneath it.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

There is too Therion's boss epithet: "Chthonic" comes from Greek root meaning "of the earth / land". So the title could be loosely translated as "Therion, Riddle of the Land". We see several Therions gleefully spaming laser beams just before getting to the fight with the Terminus Bellweather (the second boss) so apparently there were more than one, but seemingly they were the worse of the Terminus monstrosities. Their epithet directly connects them with the Sound emanating from the land or beneath it.

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I thought the Therions to be the ultimate culmination of the Ancients' fear for the end of the world and the Sound that initially triggered the Final days as well.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

Zodiark's summoning upset the balance, aye, but I would argue that was the only solution they had for what it was coming, and it was Hydaelyn's summoning what caused the first war in history, because fear had taken root in the Ancients.

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All we know of the Ancients is seen through the lens of the last final survivors of that civilization. To say 'the first war in history' has to be taken as the hyperbole it is -- we know nothing about the history of the Ancients.

There may well have been tens of thousands of years of utter chaos, with war after war after war before the Ancients became what they were in Emet-Selch eyes. The highly structured civilization we see in Amaurot is the culmination of what went before. It did not drop into existence fully formed.

It is entirely possible that the 'Sound-heard-round-the-world' was akin to the Warring Triad in the Allagan Empire. Something to be contained. Something forgotten as the world moved on after the Allagan's civilization was no more.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

All we know of the Ancients is seen through the lens of the last final survivors of that civilization. To say 'the first war in history' has to be taken as the hyperbole it is -- we know nothing about the history of the Ancients.

There may well have been tens of thousands of years of utter chaos, with war after war after war before the Ancients became what they were in Emet-Selch eyes. The highly structured civilization we see in Amaurot is the culmination of what went before. It did not drop into existence fully formed.

It is entirely possible that the 'Sound-heard-round-the-world' was akin to the Warring Triad in the Allagan Empire. Something to be contained. Something forgotten as the world moved on after the Allagan's civilization was no more.

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I too believe the Ancients and Amaurot have to had come from something. My wild guess is that, since the Convocation seats have the names of the opposing scions of Light of XII's espers, perhaps they once fought the Lucavi like Ultima and the others we see in the Ivalice raid? At her defeat, Ultima proclaims: "I am your mother! I am your maker!" Which is... intriguing.

However, I should note that it was Hythlodaeus I was quoting, for he is qwho mentioned that at Hydaelyn's summoning, "for the first time in history, our people stood divided". Given the Ancients' lifespan, however, and that they were not immune to the fog of ages, I cannot put past them the possibility of having forgot whatever conflicts they overcame to reach their heights.

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I am of the mind that it may have been a reaction from the planet to the Ancients' hubris. Even in contemporary times the few that remained were extremely arrogant until their defeat; adding to this is that Amaurotine civilization takes many cues from Thomas More's Utopia (its existence as a utopia in Emet-Selch's memory; Amaurot; Hythlodaeus; Anyder) - a place that cannot exist in reality. It also has a smattering of Greek in it (Therion the "Chthonic Riddle;" Hades; several Greek words such as Akademia and Utopia), which lends credence to the idea of hubris being a part of the Ancients' downfall (a recurring theme in Greek myth).

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This may be partially true somehow, but again I don't think the Final Days actually makes sense as a response from the planet.

Firstly, because we're told that the Ancients used their own personal aether to fuel their creation magic. As far as we know, they didn't draw from the land or the Lifestream. Secondly, the effects of the Sound was killing everything on the planet. We're told the Lifestream was quite literally suicidal and killing itself, just like all other life touched by the Sound. If the Ancients hadn't stopped it, the planet would almost certainly be a lifeless rock. So to think it was a response from the Lifestream, we'd have to take it as a given that it overreacted to a truly absurd and utterly self-destructive degree. Basically even if the Ancients caused it somehow, which I do believe, I very strongly doubt this was the scenario.

It's worth keeping in mind that Azem was the Convocation member traveling around the world and solving problems. And he's us. There is no way I can see Azem hearing about the Sound and its effects and not going to check it out to see what the problem is. In fact... I'd go so far to say that Azem being out and about and seeing the impact of the Sound was probably a major factor in why they were opposed to Zodiark's creation in the first place. Azem has more... practical knowledge of what the world (and people) are really like than the rest of the Convocation does. So it makes sense that they'd have a very different perspective of what was going on and how it should be dealt with.

While the Sound does mess with the Creation Magic... nothing we have seen of it indicates Creation Magic is the cause of it. From the sound of it, it comes up out of nowhere and starts wrecking havoc. More interesting, the "solution" to fixing the Sound isn't getting rid of Creation Magic. Whatever Zoidark did to end the Sound (or contain it) he left Creation Magic alone.

It is also worth saying that the races of the current era all use magic too... and way less efficiently than the Ancients did. The entire danger of White and Black Magic is that they use up the ambient aether and too much of that results in an imbalance in the aether... to the point it caused a Calamity. So if the Ancients got whacked by the Planet for using aether wrong... we should have got whacked a very, very long time ago. That we've been fine with our sub-par magic compared to the Ancients makes me think it wasn't that.

What I find interesting about The Sound is that it's mere rumor, in so far as we are aware. They tell us about it, what it did, but not what it really was, what it really "sounded" like. A keening from deep within the earth? Pah.

We know that the Ancients were real people with feelings, desires, aspirations, jealousies, envies, and other similar emotions. Far from perfect, they still attempted to be, at least within the simulacrum of Amaurotine society that we are shown. This attempt at a unified, perfect society came at the cost of extreme suppression of the individual. They were only allowed to express themselves through officially sanctioned creation. Yet, this Azem seat existed that had to go out into the world and solve problems, meaning that there were other societies around the world that did not kowtow to Amaurot or their methods of societal restriction for the greater good.

Personally my thoughts on it are that the Sound is the result of uncontrolled creation magic, whether consciously created or more likely, sub consciously created, say by a dreaming individual. I think that the writers for XIV are likely to reference the old film, Forbidden Planet from 1956. Within that film a human scientist learns that a superior race of Alien, the Krell, once inhabited the planet he has been the lone researcher on, 200,000 years prior. They created a machine powered by 9,200 nuclear fusion reactors that was capable of constructing anything from their mere thoughts alone. The Krell apparently existed for over a billion years, and evolved past the point of war and violence. Yet, they disappeared, and all surface level structures of theirs on the planet were ground into dust in the span of a single night. "The secret devil of the soul of every person on the planet set loose all at once to loot and maim. To kill and take revenge." Within the movie, the professor who studies the Krell is shown to have gained their capacity at a limited scope to create with his mind, and he creates an intangible, invisible beast when he sleeps that seeks to destroy things that plague him in his waking hours. Of course, it differs in that the Krell could only create with their minds because they had a giant machine that ushered in all the energy and actually did the creating. The machine is subterranean, and it could be quite possible that the Ancients had something similar.

The Il Mheg pixie dailies somewhat show us this style of dream creation, wherein the reincarnated old Titania makes manifest the negative feelings of the children he's haunting in their dreams. The porxie sucks them up, and we slay them when the porxie sneezes them out into a tangible form. We've also been shown multiple times in past expansions that machines are created which can create clones, simulated primals, and even life... though that particular machine is alien in origin.

We're then shown Eden, which is, "the first sineater" that has a massive aether reservoir and can be used as a creation platform. We use it to make jank primals. Yet within the context of those fights, Ryne uses it to create solid matter for us to fight said primals upon. Note that the things created are being created both by the envisioner but also by Eden itself.

I think we're being fed foreshadowing with all these side threads to show us what caused that "keening." It's quite possible that something even bigger than Eden was held in a machine in the underground, and that it tapped directly into the Lifestream in order to facilitate the Ancients' lifestyle. We know they used their own extensive life energies to power their personal creations, and we assume that they had these large aether reservoirs because they were unsundered, but I speculate that this is not the whole story. It's quite possible that they augmented their entire race using the technology they had created in order to birth entire generations of gifted people.

Of course, it need not be a machine, but as others have said in the past, they tell us of a, "Sound." And the Ancient's most special power is dubbed, "The Echo." If the Sound really did directly influence their powers, rather than just their psychological state, then what's to say that it was always malevolent or chaotic in nature? Perhaps what was truly so terrifying about it was that it had never before been out of alignment with its intended purpose of gifting and guiding the powers of the Ancients. As for why it's underground, could be where it needs to be intertwined with the Lifestream, as in its first appearance the Lifestream was both physical and spiritual, being a green glowing liquid that runs through the entirety of the planet.

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While the Sound does mess with the Creation Magic... nothing we have seen of it indicates Creation Magic is the cause of it. From the sound of it, it comes up out of nowhere and starts wrecking havoc. More interesting, the "solution" to fixing the Sound isn't getting rid of Creation Magic. Whatever Zoidark did to end the Sound (or contain it) he left Creation Magic alone.

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Zodiark fixed the immediate issue, but it was Hydaelyn that actually got rid of creation magic by sundering the world and splitting everyone's souls. Previously it was a natural ability inherent to (at least) all Amaurotines. Some semblance of it exists within current magical systems, but rather than drawing upon concepts, they mostly brute-force effects through the manipulation of aether. If it actually worked the same way, you'd probably see a lot of people trying to cast Fire 1, only to conjure a fit of bubbles or gust of air, as even the slightest idle thoughts or flawed conception ruined the spell they were trying to enact.

I think the primary invocation of creation magic we see in the current world is Primal summoning. It was explicitly taught by the Ascians, and the combination of a great many minds in the process may mitigate the issues of a flawed conception by drawing upon consensus as a whole rather than relying on a single ideal to form the summon.

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Personally my thoughts on it are that the Sound is the result of uncontrolled creation magic, whether consciously created or more likely, sub consciously created, say by a dreaming individual. I think that the writers for XIV are likely to reference the old film, Forbidden Planet from 1956. Within that film a human scientist learns that a superior race of Alien, the Krell, once inhabited the planet he has been the lone researcher on, 200,000 years prior. They created a machine powered by 9,200 nuclear fusion reactors that was capable of constructing anything from their mere thoughts alone. The Krell apparently existed for over a billion years, and evolved past the point of war and violence. Yet, they disappeared, and all surface level structures of theirs on the planet were ground into dust in the span of a single night. "The secret devil of the soul of every person on the planet set loose all at once to loot and maim. To kill and take revenge." Within the movie, the professor who studies the Krell is shown to have gained their capacity at a limited scope to create with his mind, and he creates an intangible, invisible beast when he sleeps that seeks to destroy things that plague him in his waking hours.

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Exactly my belief, though I kind of doubt any intentional allusions to that film or the presence of an actual machine beneath the earth. Instead I think it was a manifestation of their collective unconscious, inadvertently birthed through long-term use of their creation magics, that took form in the Lifestream.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

I doubt it were Venat and her followers who had a better plan. The Convocation was formed of the greatest sages of their kind, and if they did not know, then the dissenters probably did not have more knowledge. Their priority with Hydaelyn was subduing Zodiark, they mention nothing of the Sound. As for the Convocation, I assume they had their hands full on trying to prevent the ongoing catastrophe.

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Is it so hard to believe? The Convocation members we know were pretty arrogant. I imagine a situation much like this:

Dissenters: We present to you information about the Sound, and a solution to the problem.
Convocation: We accept your information, and believe you speak true. However, your solution presents a drastic change from our comfortable way of life, and we therefore reject it. Here's our plan.
Dissenters: Your plan is... um... questionable. And doesn't really solve the problem. It'll just pop up again.
Convocation: If it does, then we will solve the problem the same way - and preserve our way of life in the process.
Dissenters: That's a lot of unecessary suffering!
Convocation: It IS necessary. Preservation of the status quo is of the utmost importance.
Dissenters: We disagree, and will enact a plan to counter YOUR plan.

I do like the idea that Azem was the only one to discover the truth about the Sound (and, as you say, it makes sense since she was the one to actually do the legwork rather than just armchair theorize). But it is not difficult at all for me to imagine the Dissenters finding the truth, and the Convocation being just plain unwilling to jeopardize their way of life.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Personally my thoughts on it are that the Sound is the result of uncontrolled creation magic, whether consciously created or more likely, sub consciously created, say by a dreaming individual. I think that the writers for XIV are likely to reference the old film, Forbidden Planet from 1956.

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I was wondering if anyone else noticed that! Yeah, I was getting a REAL strong Forbidden Planet vibe from all this.

I don't think the Ancients had a machine or creature powering their creation abilities, however. The storyline mentions that each Ancient had an enormous amount of Aether within them which they used to power their Creation magic. One Ancient we talked to noticed (who had mistaken us for a child) noted that the Aether within us was WAY weaker than it should be (even for a child), and recommended we get a device to assist us in performing Creation magic.

The origin of Amaraut is an interesting topic. It's clear that they're aware that discord can be a thing (which is why they wear masks and suppress individuality), but they've eventually had no conflict more violent than sprited discussion for as long as anyone can remember. While we know only bits and pieces of what life was like outside of Amaraut, but it seems as though relations between the cities was peaceful (though not cooperative enough that Amaraut immediately leapt to the defense of other cities when the Sound began to manifest - instead, they debated whether they should). Amaruat was a Utopia, and had been for a very, very long time, considering that Ancients are very long-lived and apparently have no history of serious conflict beyond a general injunction against individualtiy.

So, what did this Utopia arise FROM? All we have to go on is our personal experience on our own planet, from which civilization arises from barbarism. Is this the only possible way it could have happened? Were the really, really ancient Ancients similarly barbarous, and eventually found common ground? Or were they peaceful from the day they came to exist as a people? For that matter, did they evolve from lesser beings at all? Or did they just spontaneously come into being fully formed as they are, like the gods they resemble?

The Sound was a change, brought to a society that was largely changeless. If the Sound was CAUSED in some way by the Ancients, they must have had some kind of change the prompted it. Either that, or the change that brought about the Sound was EXTRAORDINARILY gradual. If the Ancients' overuse of Creation magic caused the problem, either something happened recently to ramp up the use of Creation magic, or it had been poisoning the well for a very, very long time...

Forbidden Planet itself was inspired by Shakespeare's The Tempest

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Is it so hard to believe? The Convocation members we know were pretty arrogant.

I do like the idea that Azem was the only one to discover the truth about the Sound (and, as you say, it makes sense since she was the one to actually do the legwork rather than just armchair theorize). But it is not difficult at all for me to imagine the Dissenters finding the truth, and the Convocation being just plain unwilling to jeopardize their way of life.

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They were pretty arrogant towards /mortals/. Their attitude is more or less, "you do not know a thing", and to be honest they were rather right. Not the best approach, indeed, but not without reason.

I would say arrogance was on the dissenters' side. They note that they are few in number because most of the people place their faith in the Convocation. And yet, these fewer decide in stead of all their kind and very well aware that their "chosen course may yet doom all of our brethren". Hydaelyn's summoning was not condoned nor approved not just by the Convocation, but a great majority of the Ancients, and that included Azem, the defector. And they did it merely because they feared Zodiark: Hydaelyn's purpose is not "contain the Sound", it is "keep Zodiark in check". This is coherent with FFXII!Zodiark's bio: he was sealed and bound, forever kept an infant, because the gods feared his power.

Now that you mention a machine, however, I doubt it has anything to do with powering up creation magicks (as you mentioned, the Ancients had enough aether by themselves to cast them without resorting to the land, and if they needed a greater incantation, they surrendered their own life force, see Quetzalcoatl and Zodiark) but the very first relevant Amaurotine building we visit are the ruins of the Walls of the Forgotten, a rather peculiar structure of which we only see the top of the tower, and if you recall the mural, it was from that point that the painting depicting Amaurot in flames was portrayed. The architecture of this tower is definitely different from the usual Amaurotine spires, and Y'shtola wonders aloud how much of the building is buried underground. The whole construct does have the appearance of some sort of machine. Hmm. Room for thought.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

Actually, if you dive into the Source Lake, there are strange crystalline structures near the string of isles of Sullen.

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Sorry to disappoint, but a mining leve from Crystarium tells us these are just giant extra pure salt crystals XD I got excited about those too, but then I got to hack at them later and was deeply disappointed.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

One Ancient we talked to noticed (who had mistaken us for a child) noted that the Aether within us was WAY weaker than it should be (even for a child), and recommended we get a device to assist us in performing Creation magic.

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As for this, the ancient specifically said our 'capacity for Creation' is nonexistent, so they sent us to beat up a cubus to harness its aetherial energy. Then they gave us an item that apparently was a concept matrix...and it was a lightning cluster. So a crafting catalyst was our reward. I assume this is partially a limitation to Emet-Selch's illusion (the merchant in Amaurot is also extremely limited, for some reason Emet-Selch saw fit to let them sell fishing bait?!) and partially a limitation to our own abilities thanks to sundering.

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Concept Clerk: Pardon me for asking, but your creative potential is, um...relatively low, is it not? We are trained to assess these things, and I fear that you do not possess the ability to express this concept in physical form. It's almost as though you completely lack it, though that can't possibly be...

[...]

Here you are: a creation matrix that you may use to generate your own robes.

The concept is inscribed upon the crystal, which has been infused with the aether of the beast you brought me.

...What? Why are you looking at me as though you do not know how to channel the powers of creation? It is as natural as breathing─even a newborn babe has the instinct. Even if your potential is lacking, as one of our people, you must surely know what to do...

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- Community Cohesion

I sort of figured based on this that crafting itself is a limited form of creation, since all recipes use elementally aspected crystals as catalysts to make something out of just a few items. The issue for the ancients would be that we sundered souls need materials, experience, and a pattern of sorts as well as the catalyst to actually make anything, and we certainly can't create fantastic beasts out of thin air. Now, with an actual proper concept matrix like what's seen in Anamnesis, it's shown that merely channeling aether into one will bring the concept to life. Bigger or more complex concepts require more aether, and therefore more than one Ondo has to channel into it to activate it. It doesn't necessarily kill the channeler, either. Comparing that process to Emet-Selch, who gave us an entire dungeon of monsters to battle with relatively little effort (I assume - we never actually saw him make it, so who knows how long it actually took him or how he did it), you can see why he would consider us weak and malformed.

Related to the topic, I surmised from the MSQ that there was more than one Sound.

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Anxious Amaurotine: Have you not heard? Though yet confined to the lands across the sea, a terrible phenomenon afflicts our star. They are calling it the “Final Days.”

'Tis said it starts suddenly, a cacophonous keening from beneath the earth. The sound distorts all living things within earshot, and wrests from us control of our creation magicks.
Once that happens, all is lost. Fear, pain, despair...every dread impulse is siphoned from our minds and given substance: an eternal fall of fiery rain; an incessant spawning of nightmarish beasts...

None can point to the source of the phenomenon. 'Tis as if the star itself has fallen ill─as if a force inimical to life now festers and spreads.

'Tis only a matter of time until Amaurot, too, resounds to that discordant squall. You should stay with your loved ones, child... Stay with them...

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- The End of a World

It seems from this that the sound would travel and cause havoc. Azem would've followed it, most likely, trying to put a stop to it...

This is mostly conjecture but I have had the impression from the Amaurot dungeon that the boss battles were originally fought by the convocation. I don't think it would be wrong to suggest, post 5.3, that Azem would have arrived in Amaurot (despite leaving their seat) and fought Therion with Emet-Selch + others.

The question remains as to how Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and Elidibus escaped the Sundering when Hydaelyn was summoned, not to mention the exact timeline of summoning...I feel like Emet-Selch would've thrown himself into summoning Zodiark only after Azem ends up falling in battle, considering he chose to make an Azem fruit gummy in secret despite being tempered (I would assume these were made some time after the sundering, to raise the shards of other convocation members to their office), and he made seemingly a dozen contingency plans and even helped us out of the void despite being dead...but that's all baseless speculation for the moment.

Hmm, now I'm all fired up! Time to write some fanfic! XD

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

Sorry to disappoint, but a mining leve from Crystarium tells us these are just giant extra pure salt crystals XD I got excited about those too, but then I got to hack at them later and was deeply disappointed.

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Bah! This is what I get for not leveling crafters / gatherers. Disappointment.

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

It seems from this that the sound would travel and cause havoc. Azem would've followed it, most likely, trying to put a stop to it...

This is mostly conjecture but I have had the impression from the Amaurot dungeon that the boss battles were originally fought by the convocation. I don't think it would be wrong to suggest, post 5.3, that Azem would have arrived in Amaurot (despite leaving their seat) and fought Therion with Emet-Selch + others.

The question remains as to how Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and Elidibus escaped the Sundering when Hydaelyn was summoned, not to mention the exact timeline of summoning...I feel like Emet-Selch would've thrown himself into summoning Zodiark only after Azem ends up falling in battle, considering he chose to make an Azem fruit gummy in secret despite being tempered (I would assume these were made some time after the sundering, to raise the shards of other convocation members to their office), and he made seemingly a dozen contingency plans and even helped us out of the void despite being dead...but that's all baseless speculation for the moment.

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The way Emet narrates, he does it make sound personal, as if he were part of those battles. That Azem would have fought alongside him, that is definitely a possibility, for the whole Amaurot and the dungeon are not exactly aimed at the Scions but at the WoL/D to see if their memories can be given a push.

The whole not-getting-to-craft-a-memory-crystal was Ancient law, but I do not see it being equal to instant-hate-from-the-Convocation. They all were rather close, closer to some than to others as we see with Azem and Emet-Selch, Loghrif and Mitron, and Elidibus, Lahabrea and Igeyorhm, but generally close. In their constellation crystals they mutually comfort each other when the world is heading into ruin. It would not be in Azem's nature to leave Amaurot, her people and their friends Emet and Hythlodaeus and the Convocation deal with the Final Days on their own. As for how Elidibus, Lahabrea and Emet escaped the Great Sundering, my wild guess is that Azem might have had a hand on it. I actually wrote a short thing about that a few months ago... You know, perhaps Azem tried to shield Emet and Lahabrea and Elidibus got into the shield because proximity (?) and that is why they escaped. Emet in particular seems to fiercely resent the notion of heroism because apparently that word essentially means "sacrifice", see Elidibus. It would not surprise me if he actually resented it more because something Azem did. I do agree, all of this is FanFiction fuel at its best. :)

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

Sorry to disappoint, but a mining leve from Crystarium tells us these are just giant extra pure salt crystals XD I got excited about those too, but then I got to hack at them later and was deeply disappointed.

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On the one hand, yeah. The levequest declares them salt crystals and that's super disappointing.

On the other... salt crystals? In a presumably-freshwater lake?

We were also harvesting "driftwood" from ruined buildings at one point if I remember right, so the descriptions are at least slightly dubious. I wonder if the levequest people actually talk to the lore people...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On the one hand, yeah. The levequest declares them salt crystals and that's super disappointing.

On the other... salt crystals? In a presumably-freshwater lake?

We were also harvesting "driftwood" from ruined buildings at one point if I remember right, so the descriptions are at least slightly dubious. I wonder if the levequest people actually talk to the lore people...

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No this is probably a real world thing that made it into the final fantasy game. A great example is the great lakes, which today are fresh water lakes, but underneath them is a large deposit of salt from pre-history when the United States or we should say the earth plates that would house the United States in the future were under the ocean.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On the one hand, yeah. The levequest declares them salt crystals and that's super disappointing.

On the other... salt crystals? In a presumably-freshwater lake?

We were also harvesting "driftwood" from ruined buildings at one point if I remember right, so the descriptions are at least slightly dubious. I wonder if the levequest people actually talk to the lore people...

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If the salt isn't floating around in the water actively then it'd still be freshwater, I think. The water in the immediate vicinity might be brackish if the salt dissolves.

I can't comment on the driftwood label being assigned to house ruins, but I'm fairly sure both the names of the items gathered and the lore in the description are the product of the lore/localization team. If it turns into a problem with the MSQ, the locations of that levequest's nodes may find themselves mysteriously relocated in the future... :D

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

As for how Elidibus, Lahabrea and Emet escaped the Great Sundering, my wild guess is that Azem might have had a hand on it. I actually wrote a short thing about that a few months ago... You know, perhaps Azem tried to shield Emet and Lahabrea and Elidibus got into the shield because proximity (?) and that is why they escaped. Emet in particular seems to fiercely resent the notion of heroism because apparently that word essentially means "sacrifice", see Elidibus. It would not surprise me if he actually resented it more because something Azem did. I do agree, all of this is FanFiction fuel at its best. :)

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I think more that perhaps Igeyorhm was the one who saved them. Consider the final scene with Elidibus after we give him the constellation crystals. Which ones did he hold? Igeyorhm and Lahabrea's. Lahabrea as we know was Unsundered, so it makes sense he'd take his considering they'd been together for millenia. But Igeyorhm's feels a bit out of place. If you come with the conclusion that Igeyorhm saved them from being Sundered, it makes a lot more sense.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I think more that perhaps Igeyorhm was the one who saved them. Consider the final scene with Elidibus after we give him the constellation crystals. Which ones did he hold? Igeyorhm and Lahabrea's. Lahabrea as we know was Unsundered, so it makes sense he'd take his considering they'd been together for millenia. But Igeyorhm's feels a bit out of place. If you come with the conclusion that Igeyorhm saved them from being Sundered, it makes a lot more sense.

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Iggy was the Convocation member shown alongside Lahabrea in Elidibus' memories, and she was who told him the line of: "the rains have ceased, and we have been graced with another beautiful day". It is common thought that Lahabrea and Igeyorhm were rather close, and apparently within the Convocation Elidibus felt the closest to them. Given that he cannot remember Azem, implied to have been his inspiration, but you get what I mean.

While we don't exactly know, I think there is reason to hypothesize, and my personal hypothesis is that, Creation Magicks were always dangerous. And an eventual dominoes effect catastrophe was always inevitable.

Ascian society was 'enlightened' because it had to be. Because if they weren't, the keg of gunpowder that was them, themselves, and their dangerous powers, would cause untold desctruction. And even said enlightened society did fall. The sound might not have even been anything important. Or even real. It was their imaginations that were dangerous. They didn't have such an ability to keep the power in check or under safe control, despite their best efforts. It was the fear of the unknown that was their undoing.

Hence why the Sundering of the Source into 13 extra shards was deemed necessary. In order to prevent another Creation Magick's induced calamity.


That's the conclusions a lot of us have come to. And is probably right.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

While we don't exactly know, I think there is reason to hypothesize, and my personal hypothesis is that, Creation Magicks were always dangerous. And an eventual dominoes effect catastrophe was always inevitable.

Ascian society was 'enlightened' because it had to be. Because if they weren't, the keg of gunpowder that was them, themselves, and their dangerous powers, would cause untold desctruction. And even said enlightened society did fall. The sound might not have even been anything important. Or even real. It was their imaginations that were dangerous. They didn't have such an ability to keep the power in check or under safe control, despite their best efforts. It was the fear of the unknown that was their undoing.

Hence why the Sundering of the Source into 13 extra shards was deemed necessary. In order to prevent another Creation Magick's induced calamity.


That's the conclusions a lot of us have come to. And is probably right.

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Except...

The Sundering was, to the best of anyone's knowledge, an unintended side-effect of Hydaelyn sundering Zodiark in order to bind him.

It's not as if the Ancients' creation magicks didn't have dangerous potential - see the Terminus beasts - but if we're to take everything Emet-Selch told us at face value the Sound was definitely what brought Amaurot to ruin. What caused the Sound itself, if anything, remains unknown. (Some mysteries don't have answers, no matter how hard we look.)

Anyway. I don't remember anything stating the Sound caused all life to twist and die - just that it drove the Ancients mad and forcefully invoked their creation magicks, bringing their worst nightmares to life against their will. The nightmare beasts summoned thusly would have been more than capable of wreaking the death and destruction we see in the Amaurot dungeon.

If the Sound was damaging the Lifestream itself, that makes things very different... and is more suggestive of malicious intent from something (Jenova?). Regardless, we still know next to nothing about what caused it and haven't learned anything new since Emet-Selch told us about it.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

If the Sound was damaging the Lifestream itself, that makes things very different... and is more suggestive of malicious intent from something (Jenova?). Regardless, we still know next to nothing about what caused it and haven't learned anything new since Emet-Selch told us about it.

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That could be a very possible event, and now that you mention Jenova we might be onto something because was it not Jenova who caused the Ancients' demise in FFVII? I would assume that Zodiark weaving anew creation might have ended the threat... for the time being. Emet brings up the possibility of it happening again when illustrating the issue with selfless sacrifice and mortals, so it would seem the Unsundered at least were well aware that it could happen again. And if it almost obliterated the Ancients and was only stopped through mutual cooperation, Emet had every reason to worry about what would become of the star if events repeat.

If the Sound was the result of something threatening and damaging the Lifestream, then I would say this by itself puts three names as the best prepared to identify and fight the threat: Azem because it was their role in the first place to locate threats to the star, Emet because of his natural affinity with the Lifestream (to the point he was considered "a denizen of the Underworld") and Hythlodaeus because of his heightened aetherial sensitivity and if the Sound was making the Ancients' creation magicks go haywire he was the Chief of the Bureau of the Architect and probably had a lot of experience in that area. And this of course brings back to the table the original power friend trio, and it reassures me in my opinion that they will be quite relevant for the story's resolution. Something tells me they hold the key.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Zodiark fixed the immediate issue, but it was Hydaelyn that actually got rid of creation magic by sundering the world and splitting everyone's souls. Previously it was a natural ability inherent to (at least) all Amaurotines. Some semblance of it exists within current magical systems, but rather than drawing upon concepts, they mostly brute-force effects through the manipulation of aether. If it actually worked the same way, you'd probably see a lot of people trying to cast Fire 1, only to conjure a fit of bubbles or gust of air, as even the slightest idle thoughts or flawed conception ruined the spell they were trying to enact.

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Creation Magic still exists. That is why Primals exist. Primals are created with Creation Magic. You can't say that Creation Magic was gotten rid of while Primal summoning (honestly, all of Arcanism really) is a thing.

As far as we can tell, Hdyaelyn can't really change what a thing is. She can just split it so that the qualities of that thing are fractions of what they used to be. But that doesn't actually stop that thing from being that thing. Zodiark is still Zoidark, he's just 1/14 as powerful as he was originally. Same thing goes for the world and the beings on it. So sure, the races have less aether than the Ancients do... but that doesn't affect their ability to move aether around. Or their ability to decide that an idea they have should be made a reality. It's just that making that thing a reality often require a much greater percentage of their aether than it would if they were Ancients. She never actually stopped them from doing so.

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I think the primary invocation of creation magic we see in the current world is Primal summoning. It was explicitly taught by the Ascians, and the combination of a great many minds in the process may mitigate the issues of a flawed conception by drawing upon consensus as a whole rather than relying on a single ideal to form the summon.

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Except we've seen several Primals summoned by accident with no Ascian involvement. Lakshmi and Susano come to mind. And Lakshmi was summoned by one individual not a group of people. As was Shiva and one version of Titan. And Thordan... etc. Get a lot of aether in one place and a very strong idea someone thinks is real and that's really all you need for a Primal to happen.

We also have a form of magic that seem very, very close to Creation Magic in concept if not in scale: Arcanism. Carbuncles, Egis and Faries all involve bringing an idea into being. It's just that the idea is based on the mathematics of aether that are recorded somewhere: in gemstones for Carbuncles, in your own Aether for Egis or in a Soulstone for Fairies. Arcanism is more or less the math of how aether behaves. And if you figure out one math/geometry that has one effect, it will always have that effect. Which is... pretty much what the purpose of the Bureau of Architecture was for: recording the various shapes/set-ups for Creation Magic. So yeah... Arcanism is probably "Creation Magic Lite", but at such scales that worrying about running out of aether isn't a problem. So the constructs are way smaller than the stuff the Ancients worked with on a regular basis.

There's also our Anima Weapon which is both (a) formed from our own aether and (b) based on a concept of what we want that being to be. And the Anima directly draws a parallel between it and all the Primal's we've fought. There's plenty of "Creation Magic Lite" going around in the world that the Ascians seemingly don't have any input in. It's just... limited by our much smaller aether pools.... but we are figuring out ways around that! Like storing excess aether in materials to use for later! What do you think we're doing for our Zeta and Anima weapons? A lot of that is storing up aether in them to use for some purpose later down the line.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

I too believe the Ancients and Amaurot have to had come from something. My wild guess is that, since the Convocation seats have the names of the opposing scions of Light of XII's espers, perhaps they once fought the Lucavi like Ultima and the others we see in the Ivalice raid? At her defeat, Ultima proclaims: "I am your mother! I am your maker!" Which is... intriguing.

However, I should note that it was Hythlodaeus I was quoting, for he is qwho mentioned that at Hydaelyn's summoning, "for the first time in history, our people stood divided". Given the Ancients' lifespan, however, and that they were not immune to the fog of ages, I cannot put past them the possibility of having forgot whatever conflicts they overcame to reach their heights.

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I just took "our people" to mean Amaurotines, not the entirety of the human(?) species. The Amaurotines all talk like they were the only ancients, but there had to be other cities, other cultures than Amaurot. In fact we know of at least one other city from ambient conversation in Amaurot. Amaurot was just the last city standing.

(Plus, Azem would have basically no job if there weren't other peoples to interact with; no new friends to make and then throw group teleport requests at.)

In that context, to say that Amaurotines, as a people, never experienced a conflict that they couldn't overcome with debate is perfectly feasible. No nation has a civil war until it does, and in theory its possible for them to have always managed to reach a consensus. I dunno how other peoples would have felt about the Amaurotines apparently always "dictating the direction of the star", but maybe they agreed to let them at some point? Maybe that was what Azem's position was made for, to maintain an ear to the other inhabitants of the world from the city that everyone's ancestors had agreed was allowed to decide that stuff.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

That could be a very possible event, and now that you mention Jenova we might be onto something because was it not Jenova who caused the Ancients' demise in FFVII? I would assume that Zodiark weaving anew creation might have ended the threat... for the time being. Emet brings up the possibility of it happening again when illustrating the issue with selfless sacrifice and mortals, so it would seem the Unsundered at least were well aware that it could happen again. And if it almost obliterated the Ancients and was only stopped through mutual cooperation, Emet had every reason to worry about what would become of the star if events repeat.

If the Sound was the result of something threatening and damaging the Lifestream, then I would say this by itself puts three names as the best prepared to identify and fight the threat: Azem because it was their role in the first place to locate threats to the star, Emet because of his natural affinity with the Lifestream (to the point he was considered "a denizen of the Underworld") and Hythlodaeus because of his heightened aetherial sensitivity and if the Sound was making the Ancients' creation magicks go haywire he was the Chief of the Bureau of the Architect and probably had a lot of experience in that area. And this of course brings back to the table the original power friend trio, and it reassures me in my opinion that they will be quite relevant for the story's resolution. Something tells me they hold the key.

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^That is the theory that I like the best, personally. Its between that and the idea that it was overuse of creation magic, I think. And the story hasn't confirmed one way or another, but given how controlled and seemingly well understood creation magic was, I doubt the Amaurotines screwed up badly enough to get blindsided with the end of the world. Plus, the sound started on the opposite side of the world to the Amaurotines, hence why they talk about losing contact with other cities as the phenomena makes its way towards them.

Also, the sound was causing meteors from space, which is just a weird choice to me. How many people's creation magic going haywire would cause the same identical phenomena like that? And how does creation magic on the ground even do that? I know we've got several instances of meteor spells in-game and meteors being dropped on us by bosses, but they don't come from *actual* space, they manifest within a couple hundred feet above us. These meteor showers were from at least low earth orbit.

When I first played, I thought perhaps the Ancients had reached space, tech-wise, and their satellites and/or stations were falling or something. We have no indication they did or didn't have that, but still, the meteors seem to be originating from beyond the planet, whatever they are composed of. It just feels like an external attack to me.