The echo and Hydaelyn's contact

So, for the longest time we were under the assumption that the echo was something gifted by Hydaelyn (and maybe Zodiark at times) since those with the echo were contacted by Hydaelyn. We now know this to be instead a relic of the Amaurotians that awakens in their reincarnations.

It has been mentioned though that it is the echo that keeps us from being tempered by primals, and while that may have been an assumption in game, I have a theory. Maybe Hydaelyn only contacts people with the echo because they would be tempered otherwise. Not willing to create puppets.

Hydaelyn is constantly broadcasting her "Hear, Feel, Think" message; the Echo is just what lets people pick up on it. Cause and effect were mixed up for the longest time because people believed Hydaelyn speaking to them meant she had chosen them for a special destiny or whatever - that simply isn't the case.

Granted, it's still not clear how the Echo prevents tempering, or if it does so at all in light of Emet-Selch's admission that all the Ascians were tempered by Zodiark when they summoned him. My best guess is still that we are tempered by Hydaelyn, but owing to her raison d'etre she doesn't compel service or influence our behavior in any way.

To make matters more complicated... our own WoL heard Hydaelyn before we ever saw a star-shower. We were simply asleep and saw something in the Lifestream... including Lahabrea somehow? And even then, we don't hear Hydaelyn. We only start hearing her after we get our first Crystal of Light. Which is when we see a vision in our heads of a starshower... in the Lifestream.

We don't actually see something like the Starshower in real life until Elidibus does the thing on Novradant!

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

To make matters more complicated... our own WoL heard Hydaelyn before we ever saw a star-shower. We were simply asleep and saw something in the Lifestream... including Lahabrea somehow? And even then, we don't hear Hydaelyn. We only start hearing her after we get our first Crystal of Light. Which is when we see a vision in our heads of a starshower... in the Lifestream.

We don't actually see something like the Starshower in real life until Elidibus does the thing on Novradant!

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I believe the story assumes your character participated in 1.x, in which case they saw the starshower quite a while before the ARR opening cutscene.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

I believe the story assumes your character participated in 1.x, in which case they saw the starshower quite a while before the ARR opening cutscene.

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Coils seem to support that.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

I believe the story assumes your character participated in 1.x, in which case they saw the starshower quite a while before the ARR opening cutscene.

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Not necessarily. You're given the option to tell your merchant ride in the intro cutscene that it's your first time in Eorzea (or at least the city-state you're visiting), and at several points the game acknowledges whether or not you did participate in 1.x (though you have to have cleared a specific quest to get that), such as Cid remarking you saved Eorzea twice in the ending of A Realm Reborn or Count Edmont telling his children you've bested two legatuses when introducing you to them.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Granted, it's still not clear how the Echo prevents tempering, or if it does so at all in light of Emet-Selch's admission that all the Ascians were tempered by Zodiark when they summoned him. My best guess is still that we are tempered by Hydaelyn, but owing to her raison d'etre she doesn't compel service or influence our behavior in any way.

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One thing that muddies the water even further is that both Fordola and Zenos possess the Echo through artificial means. Fordola uses it to stop Lakshmi's attempts to temper the NPCs alongside Arenvald and WoL during a solo duty, and Zenos uses it to not only resist Shinryu's attempt to temper him, but is able to subvert the primal's will and take control of it himself. Unless both of them are tempered by Hydaelyn, too, it does seem like the Echo provides resistance to tempering on its own. It might just be that it relies on the strength of the person's will—the Convocation weren't strong enough to resist Zodiark, whereas Fordola and Zenos were strong enough to resist Lakshmi and Shinryu respectively.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

To make matters more complicated... our own WoL heard Hydaelyn before we ever saw a star-shower. We were simply asleep and saw something in the Lifestream... including Lahabrea somehow? And even then, we don't hear Hydaelyn. We only start hearing her after we get our first Crystal of Light. Which is when we see a vision in our heads of a starshower... in the Lifestream.

We don't actually see something like the Starshower in real life until Elidibus does the thing on Novradant!

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I may be crazy here, but I thought that the Starshower and cutscene with Lahabrea was quite literally the first thing that happens after making a new character, while you're asleep on the carriage/boat, and Hydaelyn only speaks to you after you get your first crystal.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

One thing that muddies the water even further is that both Fordola and Zenos possess the Echo through artificial means. Fordola uses it to stop Lakshmi's attempts to temper the NPCs alongside Arenvald and WoL during a solo duty, and Zenos uses it to not only resist Shinryu's attempt to temper him, but is able to subvert the primal's will and take control of it himself. Unless both of them are tempered by Hydaelyn, too, it does seem like the Echo provides resistance to tempering on its own. It might just be that it relies on the strength of the person's will—the Convocation weren't strong enough to resist Zodiark, whereas Fordola and Zenos were strong enough to resist Lakshmi and Shinryu respectively.

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Making things even more unclear is that, when your Echo first protects you from being tempered by Ifrit, he says something along the lines of "Your soul has already been claimed by another. And mortal souls cannot hold two blessings." In other words he's not unable to temper you because of the Echo, but because you're already tempered, implicitly by Hydaelyn.

Of course, I am also of the mind that the Echo does provide innate protection by allowing a contest of wills, but given contemporary Source souls are so much weaker and the power of the Ancients so fragmented in non-Echo users they can't win that contest. If one does have the Echo (an Ancient soul), their will is empowered enough to resist it - but even primals on the scale of true deities, like Hydaelyn and Zodiark, by Emet-Selch's admission cannot be resisted.

It's also important to remember that the Blessing of Light and the Echo are two separate things; the Blessing is what power Hydaelyn lends us, while the Echo is the awakened power of an Ancient's (in our case Azem's) soul.

It's rather unclear. Pretty sure the writers didn't have an endgame in mind when coming up with this, lol.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I may be crazy here, but I thought that the Starshower and cutscene with Lahabrea was quite literally the first thing that happens after making a new character, while you're asleep on the carriage/boat, and Hydaelyn only speaks to you after you get your first crystal.

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I started my first toon recently, so it's fresh in my mind:

You do have a vision of Hydaelyn and Lahabrea in the intro cutscene, while sleeping on your transport to [Eorzean City-State]. There is no starshower; that comes after getting the Water Crystal from the Lv5 instanced battle where you first meet your city-state's Scion warden.

You have another starshower vision after getting all six and obtaining the full Blessing of Light, for some reason.

Irony is, in 1.0 upon immediately starting the game a player actually did see the starshower right away even before they arrived in their starting city, as it signified their awakening of the Echo (as they didn't realize it at the time, but they were immediately thrown into an Echo scene of events that transpired some ten years earlier when that city's Archon first arrived right away).

At the time no one knew what the starshower meant, although a later Echo vision in 1.0 depicted everyone in Eorzea experiencing the starshower ten years before (it was pretty much stated that was the actual moment the Echo first "sounded" and resulted in a sudden spike in people in Eorzea being awoken to it's power, and the result Sharalyan considered it a sign of impending Calamity). Back in the 1.0 era this later one was believed to have actually been the explosion of the Agrius over Silvertear Lake, but naturally the starshower was too big and high altitude for that. Of course we now know different, but back then we just didn't know squat.

Either way, SE altered things with ARR's opening depicting the starshower being shown to the player's character much later in leiu of a foreshadowing scene from ARR's climax of Lahabrea and Hydaelyn instructing the player's character to make "a Blade of Light" to banish the Ascian out, with that scene used for the awakening of the Echo, with the later starshower scene now repurposed to basically introduce Hydaelyn Herself properly, and more importantly, also depict the granting of the Blessing of Light, which is related but a different concept to the Echo.

I thought our dream in the opening sequence included the starshower overhead? If so then potentially that's what awakens us.

Though personally I've been figuring that my characters simply saw the starshower from 1.0 and were awakened to the Echo then, even though they didn't get caught up in the following events.

Frankly the real confusing thing from the intro (Which may have increased importance now) is the sort of mini sun flying around. Lahabrea appears from it (Or at least before it), and it grants you the power to defeat him. Later on when you get your crystal it's also seen far above Hydaelyn, and you fly into it to end that cutscene.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Frankly the real confusing thing from the intro (Which may have increased importance now) is the sort of mini sun flying around. Lahabrea appears from it (Or at least before it), and it grants you the power to defeat him. Later on when you get your crystal it's also seen far above Hydaelyn, and you fly into it to end that cutscene.

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Thanks for pointing the sun-like light because I agree, right now after 5.3 it could be even more relevant. First, I have to say I do not trust Hydaelyn at all, even less after 5.0, but the whole leaving-the-WoL-in-read ever since 3.2 was making me doubt Her way before the revelations began. The fact that Azem was involved in neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn's summonings make the whole thing even worse, because Azem would not take any side, yet Hydaelyn (aka Venat) still forces us into Her service. With lies, as proven by the murals of the Qitana Ravel.

At that point, we, an innocent adventurer with a noble heart, are shown a light. The light hovers around, and then this vision of Lahabrea appears. To me, right now, and I might be wrong but this is my reading, is as if saying: "You want this light, your light? You must fight the evil Ascian. It will give you the power to stand as his equal. You want your light? The only way is through me." I am combining this interpretation with Eden!Shiva's theme lyrics, or as I like to call her, Hydaeryne.

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Turn the light on
And let her in. Won't you
Turn the light on
Turn the light on
You'll never win 'less you
Turn the light on
Turn the light on
The pain won't end 'till you
Turn the light on
The soul longs for oblivion, oblivion

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Not necessarily. You're given the option to tell your merchant ride in the intro cutscene that it's your first time in Eorzea (or at least the city-state you're visiting), and at several points the game acknowledges whether or not you did participate in 1.x (though you have to have cleared a specific quest to get that), such as Cid remarking you saved Eorzea twice in the ending of A Realm Reborn or Count Edmont telling his children you've bested two legatuses when introducing you to them.

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I mean, if you came from 1.0 and managed to complete certains quest you simply teleported you didn't have a merchant ride.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

Thanks for pointing the sun-like light because I agree, right now after 5.3 it could be even more relevant. First, I have to say I do not trust Hydaelyn at all, even less after 5.0, but the whole leaving-the-WoL-in-read ever since 3.2 was making me doubt Her way before the revelations began. The fact that Azem was involved in neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn's summonings make the whole thing even worse, because Azem would not take any side, yet Hydaelyn (aka Venat) still forces us into Her service. With lies, as proven by the murals of the Qitana Ravel.

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Except Hydaelyn doesn't force us to do anything. She lends us power, but we don't do anything we wouldn't have without her lent power. She lends us power because she thinks us worthy after seeing our good heart, putting faith in us to continue doing good. Not all Warriors of Light stay on the side of good, though (Saint Ajora); and even if people do stray from her laid out path and disobey her orders as we do in Shadowbringers, she still sees fit to lend us her power.

It's sort of how Emet-Selch complains about Hydaelyn vilifying the Ascians; yes, she does so, but their genocidal (Source-side) / omnicidal (shards) plans would cast them as villains to people who live there anyway. She lies about context to give people incentive, but we'd still do the things we do regardless of whether or not Hydaelyn told us to do them.

It's important to remember that, however duplicitous she may be, Hydaelyn's raison d'etre is protecting extant life from being consumed as Zodiark's fuel for resurrecting the Ancients who died during the Final Days. She literally exists for no other purpose than to restrain Zodiark and in so doing make sure the future belongs to those who live in the here and now, rather than those selfsame lives being used as livestock to bring back those who died aeons ago. While she may be increasingly shady, Hydaelyn is still benevolent to the races of man.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Except Hydaelyn doesn't force us to do anything. She lends us power, but we don't do anything we wouldn't have without her lent power. She lends us power because she thinks us worthy after seeing our good heart, putting faith in us to continue doing good. Not all Warriors of Light stay on the side of good, though (Saint Ajora); and even if people do stray from her laid out path and disobey her orders as we do in Shadowbringers, she still sees fit to lend us her power.

It's sort of how Emet-Selch complains about Hydaelyn vilifying the Ascians; yes, she does so, but their genocidal (Source-side) / omnicidal (shards) plans would cast them as villains to people who live there anyway. She lies about context to give people incentive, but we'd still do the things we do regardless of whether or not Hydaelyn told us to do them.

It's important to remember that, however duplicitous she may be, Hydaelyn's raison d'etre is protecting extant life from being consumed as Zodiark's fuel for resurrecting the Ancients who died during the Final Days. She literally exists for no other purpose than to restrain Zodiark and in so doing make sure the future belongs to those who live in the here and now, rather than those selfsame lives being used as livestock to bring back those who died aeons ago. While she may be increasingly shady, Hydaelyn is still benevolent to the races of man.

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Neither Zodiark and Hydaelyn have full control of those they temper; Fandaniel is proof of it because he was already acting on his own before Elidibus was defeated. They are elder primals and we do not know exactly how much they influence others.

I agree that Hydaelyn is and probably will not be malevolent, but She is not exactly benevolent either. There was no need to try telling a version of the story that would erase the past of the star and automatically make everyone demonize the Ascians. Of course the Rejoinings are bad, but the Ascians were not given the chance to explain, and no one would believe them because Hydaelyn's main argument against them is that they are all liars. That would perpetuate the war instead of bridging the differences.

And yet there is to be seen what happens when we bring the truth of the world to the Source, her domain. That which She has been trying to erase for a very long time. Not to mention we have not had any contact with Her since 3.2. For now, I do not trust She will approve on us having basically being restored to our Convocation seat until proven contrary. And whatever the reason, if end-does-not-justify-the-means applies to the Ascians, that goes for Hydaelyn and Her followers as well. The way I see it, both Hydaelyn and Zodiark are a blight upon the star. Their very existence divides the people and causes discord.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's important to remember that, however duplicitous she may be, Hydaelyn's raison d'etre is protecting extant life from being consumed as Zodiark's fuel for resurrecting the Ancients who died during the Final Days. She literally exists for no other purpose than to restrain Zodiark and in so doing make sure the future belongs to those who live in the here and now, rather than those selfsame lives being used as livestock to bring back those who died aeons ago. While she may be increasingly shady, Hydaelyn is still benevolent to the races of man.

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But when Zodiark is gone, what is stopping her from resundering the source, separating out the previous seven rejoinings? This would be a calamity very much like a rejoining and cause death and mayhem for a greater good that continues to take the power away from the people. Remember she is a primal (and we can debate the tempering issue because that hasn't been made 100% clear yet) and will only live to see her ultimate goal take shape--sunder the star into 14 shards so Zodiark doesn't have the fuel to rewrite the laws of reality.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

The fact that Azem was involved in neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn's summonings...

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While it's been implied, we don't actually know for a fact that Azem refused to participate until we get more information on the exact circumstances of the summoning. We can't disprove that they weren't talked into it sometime after that recorded conversation took place.

I know it's the likely conclusion, but my gut feeling is to tread warily around stating it as fact for now.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

But when Zodiark is gone, what is stopping her from resundering the source, separating out the previous seven rejoinings? ... Remember she is a primal and will only live to see her ultimate goal take shape--sunder the star into 14 shards so Zodiark doesn't have the fuel to rewrite the laws of reality.

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Is this meant to be speculative? We have no reason to be certain that Hydaelyn's specific programming requires Her to sunder the shards, let alone into a preordained number. If She is expected to target Zodiark, and Zodiark no longer exists, then what reason is there to act to limit His power?

I'm more inclined to speculate that the Sundering was a terrible accident in the first place - that Hydaelyn meant to sunder Zodiark alone, but He was bound up in the aether of the world itself and everything was torn apart as an unforeseen side-effect. But having done it, and life now existing in its fourteen reflections, those are now equally precious as the original and should be protected.

Basically, as I interpret it, it's not "the original world should be protected" vs "all fourteen shards should be protected" but to do what is best for all life that exists right now. It's a tragedy that the Sundering happened but also that the rejoinings happened - neither should be repeated or reverted, as both would be catastrophic to those who are currently living in them.

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Fandaniel is proof of it because he was already acting on his own before Elidibus was defeated.

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There's not any proof that Fandaniel was tempered.

In fact if you think about it, it's impossible for any of the Sundered Ascians to be tempered. So far as we know, tempering doesn't persist through death and a dunk in the Lifestream, and all the Sundered Ascians were raised up from shards of their original selves after the Sundering.

And Zodiark, again so far as we know, is extremely dead. He shouldn't be able to temper anyone.

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If She is expected to target Zodiark, and Zodiark no longer exists, then what reason is there to act to limit His power?

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If Zodiark is set to be resurrected, she has reason to sunder the world once again.

Also, I really think there was an alternative reason for the Sundering, something more than just killing Zodiark.

Zoidark isn't dead. He's still alive. He's just not in the Lifestream proper and can't influence it or the Planet anymore. So he needs the Ascians around to do so.

Sundering definetly still works after death. There's a reason Ardbert exists. He's a bit of the Sundered Azem's soul; same as we are. Also, the Sundered Ascians are called Sundered for a reason.

We do know that the Sundered Ascians need to be "raised up" to get their memories back. Given everything we know about the Rift (specifically the Chrysalis), it's very, very likely that is where Zodiark really is. Given that becoming an Ascian involves leaving your body... it's got to be whack. I can't see Zoidark (or the Unsundered Ascians) just letting someone have the power that an Ascian does and not wind up Tempered by Zodiark. The last thing they need is some non-dying individual to take Hydaelyn's side and start wrecking the Ascians plans that way.

It's all but guarantied that we will be getting more info about what Azem did after Zodiark and Hydaelyn were both summoned. We have a very handy crystal of what Emet-Selch remembered of Azem on us as well as a power that can see past events when it is advantageous for us to see them. Azem's Crystal is a Checkov's Gun ready to go off and give us a very fun lore dump.

As far as the Echo goes... If Zodiark can Temper the Convocation... than he should be able to Temper Azem. Even with Azem not wanting to help summon Hydaelyn, I can't see them just letting Zodiark go around demanding aether via killing people. So... I can see Azem having to solve the "don't get Tempered by Zoidark" problem while having a lot of evidence that they would get tempered by Zoidark if they went up against them...

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

We don't actually see something like the Starshower in real life until Elidibus does the thing on Novradant!

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Incorrect. Though it be not in cutscene, we see several starshowers and meteorfalls within combat in FFXIV between the beginning of the game and 5.2, that take place within canonical combat.
Kaiser Behemoth's Ecliptic Meteor in LoTA.
Syrcus Tower Xande fight when he employs the casting of multiple meteors.
Turn 9 of Binding Coil of Bahamut, when Nael deus Darnus drops comets.
Tioman's use of meteors and comets through the fight in Sohm Al.
The meteor spell cast during Thordan's Knights of the Round phase.
Sophia using meteors to tip her scales.
Zurvan's meteors during Broken Seal.
Ozma's meteors in Weeping City.
The second boss in Bardam's Mettle, "Be not afraid of falling stars."
Simulacra of Halicarnassus teleporting us to a desert wherein a "starry gift" moves to crash down on the desert.
Simulacra of Exdeath casting Meteor on us in Omega 4.
And then the entire simulated existence of the end days of Amaurot in the dungeon Amaurot during 5.0.

So like, yeah, we've seen things similar to the starshower quite a lot during our heroic shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

And Zodiark, again so far as we know, is extremely dead. He shouldn't be able to temper anyone.

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Zodiark is very much alive, but is sealed in the moon. As this is a plot point from ARR, if the 8th calamity/rejoining takes place that will give Zodiark enough power to slip his bonds. And Hydaelyn (since Heavensward, when she speaks to you after Anti-tower) does not have the power to stop him again.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Zodiark is very much alive, but is sealed in the moon. As this is a plot point from ARR, if the 8th calamity/rejoining takes place that will give Zodiark enough power to slip his bonds.

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No, there is not and has never been a plot point that the eighth rejoining would give Zodiark enough power to break free.

That was speculation based on an out-of-game statement during promotion for Shadowbringers about the "eighth and final" Calamity.

The idea of it being a tipping point was our best guess at that time as to why the eighth might be the last.

In hindsight it is almost certainly referring to the alternate timeline where, depending on how you interpret it, either our time-altering escapades brought that world to an end entirely, or - on the assumption that the timeline continues to exist - the world may even be too ruined for even the Ascians to salvage.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

It's all but guarantied that we will be getting more info about what Azem did after Zodiark and Hydaelyn were both summoned. We have a very handy crystal of what Emet-Selch remembered of Azem on us as well as a power that can see past events when it is advantageous for us to see them. Azem's Crystal is a Checkov's Gun ready to go off and give us a very fun lore dump.

As far as the Echo goes... If Zodiark can Temper the Convocation... than he should be able to Temper Azem. Even with Azem not wanting to help summon Hydaelyn, I can't see them just letting Zodiark go around demanding aether via killing people. So... I can see Azem having to solve the "don't get Tempered by Zoidark" problem while having a lot of evidence that they would get tempered by Zoidark if they went up against them...

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A lot to unpack here, but to start with tempering: We are not 100% sure if we were tempered by Hydaelyn in the sense that the blessing of light is tempering that allows freedom of thought. The Echo and the Blessing seem to be two different powers and some would argue that it's the blessing that prevents the tempering because it is a tempering from another primal. If you refer back to the cutscene before we face Ifrit, his followers are upset that we can't be tempered because we've been tempered by some other primal, but Ifrit corrects them and says its the blessing. I would assume we'll get a straight answer about this before the end of 6.0.

Regarding the Azem flashbacks/echos, this is probably a going to be a thing, but I don't think it will be flashbacks to us just adventuring. We do this now, literally playing the job of Azem every time we play the game, so to flashback to Azem has to serve the double function of filling in missing history. My personal theory is we've been reincarnated before every calamity and have been a participant in said events. Obviously we've failed 7 times but may have done damage control at best. Most likely we won't see two of the time lines because we've already seen them--specifically Tenzen during the 4 lords quest where our soul is recognized to be his and then again during Return to Ivalice with ff14 original Ramza where we are recognized as him too; also this may or may not be stretch but Warring Triad also recognizes you as a citizen of the Allagan empire during the war with Mercyadia. We also know that our characters are all implied to have been at the battle of Carteneau only to have been trust forward in time by Louisoix before he becomes Phoenix (with legacy players getting remember flair from returning characters from 1.0). I think it's important that we look at what has happened before these calamities because just wining the fight doesn't stop the calamity from coming to pass and we are at crunch time because the 8th calamity will free Zodiark.

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Zoidark isn't dead. He's still alive.

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What's the source on this? Because so far as I know, he's very very dead, and everything the Ascians have done is (in part) to resurrect him.

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Sundering definetly still works after death.

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Sorry there, meant to say "tempering", not sundering. Once someone dies, their tempering is undone - People aren't born pre-tempered to Primals that may have tempered a previous incarnation of them in the past.

Basically, because the Sundered Ascians are just that, sundered shards of their former selves, that means they, unlike the three Unsundered, did not survive the Sundering. Meaning they should not retain the tempering resulting from Zodiark's summoning. And given that Zodiark himself was Sundered, is stated to be dead, and his remains are bound away within the moon, it is extremely unlikely that he has either the power or agency to temper anyone anymore.

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I can't see Zoidark (or the Unsundered Ascians) just letting someone have the power that an Ascian does and not wind up Tempered by Zodiark. The last thing they need is some non-dying individual to take Hydaelyn's side and start wrecking the Ascians plans that way.

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Evidently the Sundered were previously reigned in by the Unsundered, which is why Fandaniel is now free to do whatever the hell he wants.

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I can't see them just letting Zodiark go around demanding aether via killing people.

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That's not exactly what the situation was.

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Zodiark is very much alive, but is sealed in the moon. As this is a plot point from ARR, if the 8th calamity/rejoining takes place that will give Zodiark enough power to slip his bonds. And Hydaelyn (since Heavensward, when she speaks to you after Anti-tower) does not have the power to stop him again.

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Whenever his return is referenced, it's always in the context of "resurrecting" him.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Whenever his return is referenced, it's always in the context of "resurrecting" him.

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As opposed to "summoning" him. If he was dead he would need to be summoned. But he isn't dead, just needs more of the shards and the source rejoined to have the power break out of the moon. Which is very much a "resurrection" and not a "summoning".

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As opposed to "summoning" him. If he was dead he would need to be summoned. But he isn't dead, just needs more of the shards and the source rejoined to have the power break out of the moon. Which is very much a "resurrection" and not a "summoning".

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When a Primal is killed, their essence is actually cast back to the aetherial sea, from which they can be summoned once more. This is why the Allagans favored capturing Primals over killing them, and why multiple instances of the same Primal can't be summoned at the same time.

Hydaelyn not only killed and sundered Zodiark, she also bound the remains of his essence in the moon so he couldn't return to the Lifestream from which he may have been resummoned. Basically, Zodiark is the most truly dead anything in this setting can possibly be, which is why the Ascians constantly describe his return as a resurrection, because he's utterly broken and out of commission until they can rejoin the shards.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Hydaelyn not only killed and sundered Zodiark, she also bound the remains of his essence in the moon

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Do you have a quote for that? Especially the killing part?

My understanding is that Zodiark was sundered and bound, but not killed.

The first lorebook describes (via the in-universe framing of research by the Scions and the Sons of Baldesion, so their understanding at the time) that because Darkness has grown out of balance, Hydaelyn "passed judgement that Darkness should be physically excised from the planet, and cast the will of Darkness - Zodiark - into space where it became the moon".

It also describes the Ascians' purpose as being to "regather the aether distributed amongst the thirteen mirrored planes [...] where it can be used to wake the exiled Zodiark and restore Him to his rightful place back within Hydaelyn".

So no, I don't think He's dead.

Even during Word of Mother minfillia states as the voice of Hydaelyn that she split zodiark across the shards and sealed him into the moon. There was no specific mention of her killing him.

Also when Emet Selch demonstrates Hydaelyns power, which he even says she was created to enervate him, it show us that it would split the person in half of EVERYTHING they have using Ryne as the example.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

But when Zodiark is gone, what is stopping her from resundering the source, separating out the previous seven rejoinings? This would be a calamity very much like a rejoining and cause death and mayhem for a greater good that continues to take the power away from the people. Remember she is a primal (and we can debate the tempering issue because that hasn't been made 100% clear yet) and will only live to see her ultimate goal take shape--sunder the star into 14 shards so Zodiark doesn't have the fuel to rewrite the laws of reality.

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One thing to remember about Hydaelyn (and Zodiark, for that matter) that sets her apart from other Primals, is that she explicitly has a non-Primal being acting as her heart. Venat, in the case of Hydaelyn. We cannot assume that she's a mindless sundering machine, programmed to divide the world and keep it divided for as long as she has the power to do so. She could very well have enough agency to decide that enough has been done, and that no further action is required on her part.

One could take the stance that it's too great a risk to take. We have a being who could potentially destroy us all, and she's temporarily(?) weakened. We must kill her, before she regains her power! Never mind that she could well be a gentle, benevolent being who means us no harm - she's too powerful and therefore must die! I doubt that the game will ever take us down that path, as it's pretty much the farthest thing from heroism, and if the Warrior of Light has any grey in her morality, it's a light shade at best. If we do end Hydaelyn's life, it won't be because of paranoid fear, but because Hydaelyn herself wishes it.

On the topic of Primals with hearts, I have to wonder if Elidibus is still functioning as Zodiark's heart. The Elidibus we slew was explicitly a Primal, and Primals are NOT the individual they were originally patterned after (Primal Bahamut is nothing like original Bahamut, original Garuda was an Allagan general rather than an insane bird-woman, and so on). I don't know if the story meant to imply that the Primal-ization of Elidibus explicitly removed Zodiark's heart and wrapped it up in Primal skin (similar to Ysayle's transformation into Shiva), or if the Primal Elidibus is an independent being. I suspect that Primal Elidibus is intended to be Zodiark's removed heart, as that would leave a convenient vacancy for Zenos to move into, but I still wonder...

Well, it wasn't so long ago that some posters around these parts were fiercely denying the possibility that Hydaelyn was a Primal. That particular theory was proposed here and shot down rather nastily before the official reveal that came with the Shadowbringers pre-launch trailer. Then, even when the scene involving Emet-Selch was seen in-game the narrative shifted to accusing Emet-Selch of lying. It's only recently - almost a year later - that such a plot point has been swallowed properly. I'd say the plot could go in quite a few different directions at this point and pretty much all the predictions based around her being 'benevolent' should be taken with a hefty pinch of salt.

There is something about Hydaelyn's nature as an alleged anti-primal-primal that irks me the most, and it is this saying that I do not know how it is phrased in English, but it goes more or less like: "He who fights monsters becomes a monster himself." You know, the problem with moral superiority. When you believe yourself entitled to pass judgment on others, losing sight of your own flaws and ending up considering yourself above this very judgment. I believe the trope was called something like "Holier than Thou"? Whatever. Perhaps Hydaelyn has not bad intentions per se, but after eons of being the undisputed goddess and revered as such, that could have had an effect. I am reminded of how She presents Herself to others: "I am Hydaelyn. All made one." I will not claim that I know what exactly She means by that, but Her origins do not suggest She is "all made one" at all.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

There is something about Hydaelyn's nature as an alleged anti-primal-primal that irks me the most, and it is this saying that I do not know how it is phrased in English, but it goes more or less like: "He who fights monsters becomes a monster himself." You know, the problem with moral superiority.

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The quote (from Nietzche BTW) goes like this: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you"

But yes there is a large risk that Hydaelyn, would be corrupted by the eons of being what is basiclay the FFXIV version of Yahweh for so long. And thus more likely to take the "my way or the highway" mindset. In fact I do think the story would inevitably go to that point as we learn more about Azem and exactly why they didn't side with Venat's faction.

It if also worth noting that IIRC she was referred to as the "will of the star" (and there were other implications as such, the Source was named after her after all) which meant that she likely usurped Zodiark's role as such when she sealed him. But it also brings some subjectivity to the title as it was also speculated that the Final Days was a reckoning, a revengance on the Aumarotines from the planet itself, as well as Zodiark being incarnated to be the will of the star.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

The quote (from Nietzche BTW) goes like this: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you"

But yes there is a large risk that Hydaelyn, would be corrupted by the eons of being what is basiclay the FFXIV version of Yahweh for so long. And thus more likely to take the "my way or the highway" mindset. In fact I do think the story would inevitably go to that point as we learn more about Azem and exactly why they didn't side with Venat's faction.

It if also worth noting that IIRC she was referred to as the "will of the star" (and there were other implications as such, the Source was named after her after all) which meant that she likely usurped Zodiark's role as such when she sealed him. But it also brings some subjectivity to the title as it was also speculated that the Final Days was a reckoning, a revengance on the Aumarotines from the planet itself, as well as Zodiark being incarnated to be the will of the star.

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That one, yes. My philosophy lessons are a bit rusty, I did not even remember it was Nietzsche's, but for some reason I recalled the quote.

Having replayed Heavensward, Stormblood and Shadowbringers at least five times because of alts, I do not recall Hydaelyn ever being referred as "the will of the star". That has only been said of Zodiark. Which adds insult to the injury, to be fair, because not only Hydaelyn was not created to act as such unlike Zodiark, but She became synonymous with the name of the star. The planet probably had another name back in the Ancients' time, and if it was not "Zodiark", then I highly doubt it would be "Hydaelyn". When Lahabrea called Her a "parasite" in Praetorium, welp, I am afraid he was not exactly lying. I think it was all part of this ruse to hide the truth: perhaps, no matter Her efforts, there remains a figment of Ancient memory in sundered souls (see the Echo PTSD triggering) that might recall something about a great being named "the will of the star"; because these memories would be hazy and fragmented, it would be easy to pose as such since, you know, the real owner of the title has pretty much been silenced and those who remember Him deemed liars and seekers of the apocalypse.

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Do you have a quote for that? Especially the killing part?

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It only comes from the statement that he must be resurrected.

Regardless, Hydaelyn sundered him and bound his lingering essence in the moon across the shards, where he's lain for 12,000 years. In terms of Primals, that is as dead as one can possibly get. I don't think we have reason to believe that he has either the will or capability to temper anyone.

My guess is that "Hear, feel, think" is Hydaelyn's way of protecting people from tempering. Since Hydaelyn was summoned to be a counterbalancing force against Zodiark, I believe she was created specifically with the ability to prevent and maybe even reverse tempering. The way she ended up doing that is by constantly broadcasting her power, in the form of a voice, to people with the ability to hear her.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

My guess is that "Hear, feel, think" is Hydaelyn's way of protecting people from tempering. Since Hydaelyn was summoned to be a counterbalancing force against Zodiark, I believe she was created specifically with the ability to prevent and maybe even reverse tempering. The way she ended up doing that is by constantly broadcasting her power, in the form of a voice, to people with the ability to hear her.

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Which is more or less fighting fire with fire and in the end it is no less than Hydaelyn's "tempering". Ifrit said quite early in the story that we were "already claimed", and even Ardbert muses about her "blessing" after the Ravel's events. Emet mentions Zodiark tempering them and describes it as: "It was only natural. There's no resisting such power." This implies Zodiark tempered the Ascians rather unwillingly. If His command was "hope / deliverance / salvation" this might explain why the Unsundered were compelled with such determination to accomplish their mission, in their eyes the salvation of all. But it did not rob them of free will, each of them had their own method and in fact Emet was willing to abandon the Rejoining course should we pass his trial (of course, we failed spectacularly until Ardbert and it was too late by then).

I would say most of the mystery resides on Hydaelyn's command. That and her ability to enervate. She /divides/, not just physically but ideologically as well. I do strongly believe in individuality, but there has to be a counterbalance to come together as one in times of need, and /that/ is Zodiark's power and embodiment, how He came to be. The Ancients had a fairly balanced society in this aspect because they expressed individuality in ways that would not make them feel different from others, neither better nor worse.

But I digress. "Hear, feel, think" might be phrased as a protection of sorts, but if it is meant to signify "hear by yourself, feel by yourself, think by yourself" then what is the point of someone else commanding us in the first place? That command causes a predisposition to Her influence. It began as something handy to have when dealing with primals... until She started issuing commands such as "the Ascians cannot be suffered to exist" because of skewed storytime. And then Zenos reveals the Echo by itself is enough to counter a primal. Zenos does not seem to have the "blessing of Light", neither does Fordola. The Resonant are individuals with an artificial Echo, yes, but untouched by Hydaelyn as well. And they are immune to tempering the same. Room for thought.

I think a key concept about Hydaelyn we need to keep in mind, is that she is a primal. She will stop at nothing to continue her chosen mission until she is dispelled into aether.

Now, when I think back to the cutscene following Anemnesis Anyder, Venat and 12 other Ancients that support summoning Hydaelyn make the remark that summoning Zodiark isn't a fix the problem and will only prolong the end of the world. So the permenant solution is to summon Hydaelyn.

Hydaelyn, being a primal, like all the primals after her, needs to feed off the aether of the planet. This is ultimately why Zodiark was summoned in the first place, as aether depletion due to creation magic brought about the end of the Ancient's world. I believe that Zodiark rewriting the rules of reality, stops the end, but at the same time continues to deplete the source that caused that end, bringing a second end of the world.

So Hydaelyn will be a villain if she is doing this exact same thing. The plot points that need to be cleared up first, like if Venat designed her not to do this (which may be why she's out of running out of power). Or, her use of aether as fuel is the reason "ancient" Azem didn't side with either Hydaelyn or Zodiark factions. Until we know these answers, Hydaelyn as a villain is a very real option.

It is true that Hydaelyn is a primal. But.

Primals are only dangers if they're summoned / manifested on the material plane; as far as anyone can figure Hydaelyn is not. She's in the aetherial sea where primals go when not manifested, which is why it takes so much energy for her to so much as communicate. Even worse, due to intervening to protect us from Ultima, she's so weakened she needs to use Crystals of Light as batteries to do so.

Hydaelyn is not a permanent solution; at least I don't think she was intended as such. Her purpose is singular: restrain Zodiark by any means necessary. The sentiment behind this is that Zodiark is not a permanent solution to the problem, and that the future should belong to those living in the present rather than those selfsame lives being offered up as sacrifices to bring back those that died in the past. Ideally more research into the sound would have been carried out if not for the Sundering, but either way Zodiark had to be restrained to stop the world from stagnating. (How ironic fate can be.)

It's unclear what caused the sound that caused the Final Days. Popular belief is that it was a consequence of some sort due to creation magicks, but we still have no information on what caused the sound or why.

Hydaelyn is weak because she has no mortal worshipers and no ready source of aether, as well as lending us what strength she can spare to help us defeat the Ascians and unmake their plots.

Despite being a primal, Hydaelyn's raison d'etre is to stop Zodiark from consuming new life to resurrect the dead; to anyone's knowledge she pursues no other agenda, even if the "by any means necessary" clause really means by any means necessary. To anyone's knowledge she is also not on the material plane, thus any aether consumption on her part is unlikely to be a danger. The only reason we'd really have to go against Hydaelyn, based on the information we have now, is if we needed Zodiark off his chains to stop something like the sound coming back... but even that might not be a wise idea considering captive primals are given to rancor when let loose, and like Venat and her followers said it wouldn't really solve the problem.

I don't deny that Hydaelyn's hands are no cleaner than anyone else's, but I earnestly do not see her becoming villainous antagonistic.