Why are duo's allowed to be so toxic in dungeons?

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08-28-2020, 09:59 AM
Azure2

Why are duo's allowed to be so toxic in dungeons?

Too many times this week, I've either seen a pair of people or one user on two accounts, harassing the absolute crap out of other players. Then are capable to just kick them for the lol.

Waiting for a duty already takes a chunk of time, as well as completing them. Why is the duo allowed to control the votes???
08-28-2020, 04:35 PM
Frizze

Then report them. The GMs take harassment SUPER seriously. People who do that all the time wont last long, and we dont need them.
08-28-2020, 05:50 PM
Legion88

Report them.
If you don't report nobody cares.
08-28-2020, 07:23 PM
Azure2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frizze

Then report them. The GMs take harassment SUPER seriously. People who do that all the time wont last long, and we dont need them.

The copy and paste message is not all that encouraging. ESPECIALLY when this happened three duties in a row. That's almost over TWO hours of wasted time because of these toxic players.
08-28-2020, 07:40 PM
Vidu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure2

The copy and paste message is not all that encouraging. ESPECIALLY when this happened three duties in a row. That's almost over TWO hours of wasted time because of these toxic players.

They wont give out information in regards to what steps have been taken - and they shouldnt.

While it sucks that this happend to you, I'd be curious to hear what solution you'd propose? I dont really like the idea of not being able to remove troublesome players just because I queued up with a friend - so you cant just take away their ability to kick people or vote on kicking people.

And while I dont say that I dont believe you... three times in a row seems a bit excessive and definitly not in line with my personal experience with the game... was it always the same two people kicking you (are they holding some kind of grudge)? If it were different people: how do you even know that they were together?
In short: while I dont doubt that there are jerks out there just kicking people for fun, right now there is one common factor within those runs and thats... you. Is there maybe a possibilty that they kicked you for a reason? Did they say anything in chat?
08-29-2020, 06:17 PM
Vyrerus

Well it's a simple majority thing. Whenever a vote kick comes up, it's the 3 players who aren't being vote kicked that have the votes. That's 3 votes. If there's a couple, they have 2/3rds of the votes. It's always been this way.

And yeah, couples in my experience are pretty assholey about kicking, because they know they can do it. I even have a couple of friends who kick people pretty much every other time they run dungeons together, because they can't stand people at all who give them a hard time or consistently play poorly. I myself have run into myriad couples who do shitty things in dungeons, that aren't always outright kicks. And of course it goes the other way sometimes, where you initiate kick on one part of the couple. As long as the other person votes yes, it usually results in both partners in the couple leaving.

I have no idea how they'd implement it, but it would be kind of nice if they could make pre-made portions of dungeon groups count as a singular vote. That way it would be 2 votes or 1 vote, and couples wouldn't be able to flex a power they really shouldn't have.
08-29-2020, 06:23 PM
Doozer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I have no idea how they'd implement it, but it would be kind of nice if they could make pre-made portions of dungeon groups count as a singular vote. That way it would be 2 votes or 1 vote, and couples wouldn't be able to flex a power they really shouldn't have.

People who group together for content don't always agree on votes. Taking away their option to vote helps no one.

Majority is majority, even if they're being scummy about it. If you think you have proof that they're doing it to harass you or something, report it. Otherwise, fair is fair.
08-29-2020, 06:45 PM
Voidedge_Ragna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure2

The copy and paste message is not all that encouraging. ESPECIALLY when this happened three duties in a row. That's almost over TWO hours of wasted time because of these toxic players.

3 Times in a row? What are you doing in dungeons? You are on the same Datacenter and i encounter runs like this once in 2 months.
08-29-2020, 06:51 PM
Vyrerus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doozer

People who group together for content don't always agree on votes. Taking away their option to vote helps no one.

Majority is majority, even if they're being scummy about it. If you think you have proof that they're doing it to harass you or something, report it. Otherwise, fair is fair.

They usually do, because they are friends or lovers with the same mindset and similar perspectives. What I propose doesn't take away their vote, just their ability to be shitty. They'd still get 1 vote as a collective. Which if it was a 3 man pre-made, would be the only vote and still equal a kick. If it was a couple and 1 stranger versus another stranger, it would still hinge on majority, the stranger would just have to be in agreement to the couple, rather than the couple getting to lay down the law.

I report it anytime a couple kicks me. It is infrequent, but it still happens several times to me a year. And I witness it happen several times to the other guy in party several times a year also. Sometimes for disagreements in chat. Other times because I pulled too much or something silly like that. I have never seen a couple initiate a kick and disagree on it.
08-29-2020, 07:05 PM
Doozer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

They usually do, because they are friends or lovers with the same mindset and similar perspectives. What I propose doesn't take away their vote, just their ability to be shitty. They'd still get 1 vote as a collective. Which if it was a 3 man pre-made, would be the only vote and still equal a kick. If it was a couple and 1 stranger versus another stranger, it would still hinge on majority, the stranger would just have to be in agreement to the couple, rather than the couple getting to lay down the law.

I report it anytime a couple kicks me. It is infrequent, but it still happens several times to me a year. And I witness it happen several times to the other guy in party several times a year also. Sometimes for disagreements in chat. Other times because I pulled too much or something silly like that. I have never seen a couple initiate a kick and disagree on it.

Relying purely on anecdotal evidence is weak at best. They will never implement anything like that anyway. And "one vote as a collective" means you're taking away votes from the individuals, period. Who would choose what to vote? The party leader? What if someone doesn't agree? What if it's an 8-man party, 7 were a premade, and only 3 actually want to kick the person, but one of those three is the one that gets to 'choose'? Do you expect there to be some kind of internal vote? If not, that's not a vote at all.

Just because people can abuse the vote kick system, that doesn't mean the system should be changed. A vote is a vote. If people agree, the reason for them agreeing doesn't make their vote any less valid.

Oh, and... reporting couples because they kicked you? Yikes. Seems like a knee jerk response, honestly.
08-29-2020, 07:54 PM
Vyrerus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doozer

Relying purely on anecdotal evidence is weak at best. They will never implement anything like that anyway. And "one vote as a collective" means you're taking away votes from the individuals, period. Who would choose what to vote? The party leader? What if someone doesn't agree? What if it's an 8-man party, 7 were a premade, and only 3 actually want to kick the person, but one of those three is the one that gets to 'choose'? Do you expect there to be some kind of internal vote? If not, that's not a vote at all.

Just because people can abuse the vote kick system, that doesn't mean the system should be changed. A vote is a vote. If people agree, the reason for them agreeing doesn't make their vote any less valid.

Oh, and... reporting couples because they kicked you? Yikes. Seems like a knee jerk response, honestly.

My experience is clearly shared, and not just by the OP either. So it's not anecdotal. Secondly, it wouldn't change much. It'd be an internal vote for the premade block, using the same rules as voting now. If no majority is reached, the vote doesn't pass. There's nothing wrong with making couples beholden to the other people in the party, rather than being able to lord over them. It is a common occurrence.

As for an 8 man experience, couples or duos generally have no sway there. It could easily be kept within light party/4-man duty functions only, since it's obvious certain functions can be programmed to be accessible by number of party members or duty requirements anyway.

It is the proper response to harassment and abuse. When the system can be abused so easily and so often it should be changed. It's not really a vote if it doesn't involve all members of the party. Obviously, they could also start including the kick-ee's voice in the vote, thus requiring a 3/4ths majority, rather than a 2/3rds. The way the vote kick system is setup now gives too much power to couples within 4 person duties, is easily abused, and gives no vote to the person being kicked.
08-29-2020, 08:15 PM
Legion88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

As for an 8 man experience, couples or duos generally have no sway there. It could easily be kept within light party/4-man duty functions only, since it's obvious certain functions can be programmed to be accessible by number of party members or duty requirements anyway.

It is the proper response to harassment and abuse. When the system can be abused so easily and so often it should be changed. It's not really a vote if it doesn't involve all members of the party. Obviously, they could also start including the kick-ee's voice in the vote, thus requiring a 3/4ths majority, rather than a 2/3rds. The way the vote kick system is setup now gives too much power to couples within 4 person duties, is easily abused, and gives no vote to the person being kicked.

You have a simple problem, how to handle a draw in votes?
Vote again? Go through with the kick? Cancel the kick?

How it is set up now is that there is always an odd number of votes and only 2 options to decide, so it will always end in a majority vote and never draws, which is preferable for fast decision making instead of making it long, convoluted and save against abuse.
But yeah, if the change the vote system like this I want to be free to leave the party without being punished for leaving a unpleasent environment.
08-29-2020, 08:26 PM
Vyrerus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legion88

You have a simple problem, how to handle a draw in votes?
Vote again? Go through with the kick? Cancel the kick?

How it is set up now is that there is always an odd number of votes and only 2 options to decide, so it will always end in a majority vote and never draws, which is preferable for fast decision making instead of making it long, convoluted and save against abuse.
But yeah, if the change the vote system like this I want to be free to leave the party without being punished for leaving a unpleasent environment.

The system already handles draws. If a draw happens, the vote kick does not occur. Draws happen if someone disconnects during the vote kick.
08-29-2020, 09:14 PM
Legion88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

The system already handles draws. If a draw happens, the vote kick does not occur. Draws happen if someone disconnects during the vote kick.

No, if someone doesn't vote it is handled as voting No, the same happens for people who disconnect during the vote and didn't vote up to their disconnect.
08-30-2020, 03:53 AM
Kanitezz

I always cringe when I see two characters in my party with the same last name. Its never a fun run.
09-03-2020, 04:39 PM
Sarnai

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Obviously, they could also start including the kick-ee's voice in the vote, thus requiring a 3/4ths majority, rather than a 2/3rds. The way the vote kick system is setup now gives too much power to couples within 4 person duties, is easily abused, and gives no vote to the person being kicked.

And then ppl will start complaining about premades of 3. There is no simple solution, just blacklist the harassers so they wont get in your party as often and move on.
Person who is kicked doesnt have any penalty after kick whatsoever, so they can queue back up immediately.