Garlemald and Azys Lla

Even though the 6th Legion is stranded on Azys Lla, and Regula van Hydrus is dead fighting Zurvan, one would think some officer that outlived Zurvan would become an acting legatus as well as a de-facto viceroy over Azys Lla since Garlemald is the only faction that has any claim over Azys Lla after Zurvan's death.

Notwithstanding the logistical obstacles to either using Azys Lla as a staging area for reinforcing Gyr Abania (and/or attacking Coerthas, Dravania or the Sea of Clouds) or exfiltrating the 6th Legion out of that location, could Azys Lla be regarded as Garlean territory in SB and beyond?

Also, was Garlean bureaucracy so slow that no replacement to the 6th Legion legatus, and/or viceroy over Azys Lla, was appointed over the course of both SB and ShB?

If only Hydrus was still alive...
For a moment when i saw the first ShB trailer, "the history must be unwritten" part reminded me of him, i thought we would have to somehow bring him back in hopes of preventing or ultimately defeat Varis or prevent the Black Rose as he was his true friend and probably his death had something to do with him falling into madness. Also would have developed unukalhai more.

Azys Lla is in a time bubble right now, those imperials don't even know what's happening in the capital probably.

How safe is it to assume that the 6th is only at a fraction of its strength in HW? If so, is it more likely to be a large or a small fraction?

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Azys Lla is in a time bubble right now, those imperials don't even know what's happening in the capital probably.

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And then I would expect whoever is currently the viceroy in Azys Lla (as of 5.3; I would assume the current viceroy to be in office since Regula's death) to become a champion of those Garleans who would rather remain neutral in the Garlean civil war.

Or, barring that, to become the leader of an isolationist "Garlemald remnant" faction if Garlemald does collapse in the future.

A big part of the reason the Empire was in Azys Lla in the first place was anti-primal technology. Regula noted that said technology was flawed, since the Warring Triad were awakening and breaking loose. Presumably nobody's bothered going back since. After all, they have plenty of Allagan ruins in their own territories, without having to put an airship fleet out over hostile territory, especially now that Ishgard isn't bogged down in the Dragonsong War anymore and can actually pay attention. We also know that the Garland Ironworks is still watching the place, since they detected that one Ixal who found his way in (see Fractal Continuum Hard), so there are still eyes in the sky. It's just not worth the risk right now, even without accounting for Zenos throwing the Empire into chaos.

Of course, the real reason is the time bubble, but.

I get that Azys Lla is perhaps the most vulnerable Garlean province and its current viceroy has its hands tied, both militarily and politically. But why go through the trouble of getting a castrum built on Azys Lla if Garlemald didn't intend to occupy the region for the long run?

Also, what would prevent the current viceroy from getting the Eorzean Alliance (or at least Ishgard) to the negotiation table and surrender Azys Lla to it?

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Originally Posted by Townowi

How safe is it to assume that the 6th is only at a fraction of its strength in HW? If so, is it more likely to be a large or a small fraction?



And then I would expect whoever is currently the viceroy in Azys Lla (as of 5.3; I would assume the current viceroy to be in office since Regula's death) to become a champion of those Garleans who would rather remain neutral in the Garlean civil war.

Or, barring that, to become the leader of an isolationist "Garlemald remnant" faction if Garlemald does collapse in the future.

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What viceroy? Azys Lla is an ancient Allagan research facility that few people even know exist that is completely empty of anyone other than some Allagan nodes and the trapped VIth Legion, it's not an Imperial province so it would have no viceroy - the VIth were basically marooned there due to Ysayle freezing the engines of the Gration resulting in the ship being stuck there permenantly with no way out. The Empire has never sent any further reinforcements to the place or even tried evacutating the forces stuck there, so it can be assumed they've been given up for dead, especially with Regula's death, the Empire probably considers his legion extinct and not worth bothering with anymore.

So they're just remnant forces there, just like the remains of Gaius's XIVth still holed up in their assorted Castri within Eorzea, strong enough to resist any attempts by the Alliance to clear them out, but not strong enough to do anything else but defend their walls accordingly. And the Alliance has more pressing matters with pushing back Garlean forces on the border with Islabard to worry about a bunch of remnant Garlean forces holed up in Eorzea who are now little more than bandits in Garlean uniforms.

For Azys Lla to have a viceroy it would have to be a sovereign territory. Even assuming the Empire laid claim to Azys Lla, it's... just an excavation site.

Besides which, given the Ironworks was able to retrieve the G-Warrior from Azys Lla... whatever's left of the VIth up there clearly does not have much authority, if any. Yes, there is a makeshift Castrum up there, but they have no plans, no backup, no means of escape... nothing. They're just stuck there. If the Alliance wasn't busy fighting the main host of the Empire they could probably get rid of them; and what reason would Ishgard (or the rest of the Alliance) have to give the remnants of the VIth sovereign control of Azys Lla anyway?

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

What viceroy? Azys Lla is an ancient Allagan research facility that few people even know exist that is completely empty of anyone other than some Allagan nodes and the trapped VIth Legion, it's not an Imperial province so it would have no viceroy - the VIth were basically marooned there due to Ysayle freezing the engines of the Gration resulting in the ship being stuck there permenantly with no way out. The Empire has never sent any further reinforcements to the place or even tried evacutating the forces stuck there, so it can be assumed they've been given up for dead, especially with Regula's death, the Empire probably considers his legion extinct and not worth bothering with anymore.

So they're just remnant forces there, just like the remains of Gaius's XIVth still holed up in their assorted Castri within Eorzea, strong enough to resist any attempts by the Alliance to clear them out, but not strong enough to do anything else but defend their walls accordingly. And the Alliance has more pressing matters with pushing back Garlean forces on the border with Islabard to worry about a bunch of remnant Garlean forces holed up in Eorzea who are now little more than bandits in Garlean uniforms.

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The "Scared Sylla" FATE implies that supplies and personnel are still being ferried over to Azys Lla, since it involves the titular Sylla mal Albinus being a "senior magitek technician" from Garlemald being sent in to check on the location of Castrum Solus. Given that Garlemald was (at least at the time bubble period of Heavensward) willing to send people in, and high-ranking officials at that, it would be reasonable to assume they would be willing to evacuate people out.

I would assume a lot of their recent allagan based constructs and the tools used to temp bind shinryu were from azys lla, we can only assume that they are essentially time bubbled until the story explicitly mentions them. My theory is they are simply told to remain there and collect tech/data on allag and send it back to the empire. As for the XIVth, the story did mention they were more or less marooned however that was even before the ivy stuff came in and we can probably assume that even though they are just being left there they probably act as a spy agency of sorts or even just remaining there as convenient reinforcements if the imperials decide to invade again .

OK, now that I'm not tired with 15 minutes before my usual bedtime...

Garlemald does not have sovereign control over Azys Lla. It has an archaeo-technical excavation outpost there, which would be closer to an Antarctic research center in real life. After the events of the Warring Triad arc, they probably left a skeleton crew on the Gration to prevent it from falling into Eorzean hands and got the heck outta dodge. It's not impossible for them to have gotten cruisers up there and evacuated everyone else; it's even implied van Hydrus' body was shipped home to be buried after the Zurvan battle.

Again though, Garlemald does not have sovereignty over Azys Lla. It's mostly wilderness after a fashion, inhabited by Allagan mutant creations, robots, and escaped research subjects. There is no civilian population and no governmental system to speak of; therefore, there is no viceroy. There's the lingering remnants of the VIth Legion, a few oddballs hanging out in the Helix like Ardashir and Gerolt sometimes, and that's it. The VIth doesn't even have access to most of the Allagan facilities, if any at all.

It's unclear how long it takes for a Legion to get a new legatus (speed of plot, really); van Darnus died for most intents and purposes at the climax of 1.X, and van Varro wasn't known to be her replacement until 5.3!

The Eorzeans would undoubtedly contest any assertion of sovereign rule over Azys Lla by the VIth; they have a field excavation site there, not a state of any sort at all, and the only reason they're still there in any capacity is because the Gration is dead in the air. (Why they don't just tow it back I don't know...) The Alliance has no reason at all to give them sovereign rule of the territory either, and given they're aligned with the Empire it would be extremely counterproductive to their interests to do so.

Shinryu was temporarily bound first by Papalymo's sealing spell, then by Omega until he was released by Zenos. Azys Lla never factored into Shinryu in any capacity.

The XIVth Legion has a very different situation to the VIth. Having followed van Baelsar on his attempted conquest of Eorzea against Varis' orders during 2.0, they are wanted for desertion and treason in Garlemald; they'd be killed even if they could go back. It's why Nero lives as a drifter post-2.0 until informally throwing his lot in with the Ironworks. Considering the state of the Empire post-5.3 though... they really are just bandits in Imperial uniforms at this point.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

and the only reason they're still there in any capacity is because the Gration is dead in the air. (Why they don't just tow it back I don't know...)

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Considering the sheer size of it, they'd probably have to send a rather sizable fleet to tow it all the way back to a castrum capable of servicing it. Especially if it can't stay in the air at all on its own. And that entire fleet would have to pass over hostile territory, not to mention the various horrors in Azys Lla itself. The logistics are a nightmare. So they just strand a small force of conscripts up there to keep the savages out and otherwise ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The XIVth Legion has a very different situation to the VIth. Having followed van Baelsar on his attempted conquest of Eorzea against Varis' orders during 2.0, they are wanted for desertion and treason in Garlemald; they'd be killed even if they could go back. It's why Nero lives as a drifter post-2.0 until informally throwing his lot in with the Ironworks. Considering the state of the Empire post-5.3 though... they really are just bandits in Imperial uniforms at this point.

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Nero did confirm that however when they served under varis' orders in acting as a spy agency this was after that info was confirmed, point being that particular legion is treated as a rabble of deserters and the like but that can change at anytime merely based on how useful they are to the current ruler. They aren't allowed back in garlemald but they probably remain as they are in the hopes that they can earn their way back in, feeding info back to the capitol is one way of doing that. That being said we haven't heard anything about them at all so until we do it's all conjecture really. I didn't notice the seal on shinryu was omega, it's been a while since i saw that scene lol.

BTW I wonder if any of Gaius' and Regula's legions joined their respective legati in allying with the Alliance and its related factions. After all I kinda doubt Cid was able to get the parts for the G-Warrior without the Gration crew noticing (especially if it used Proto-Ultima parts).

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

BTW I wonder if any of Gaius' and Regula's legions joined their respective legati in allying with the Alliance and its related factions. After all I kinda doubt Cid was able to get the parts for the G-Warrior without the Gration crew noticing (especially if it used Proto-Ultima parts).

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severa is a native garlean so maybe she was one of gaius' soldiers? we'll probably get her story in the next werlyt quest.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Considering the sheer size of it, they'd probably have to send a rather sizable fleet to tow it all the way back to a castrum capable of servicing it. Especially if it can't stay in the air at all on its own. And that entire fleet would have to pass over hostile territory, not to mention the various horrors in Azys Lla itself. The logistics are a nightmare. So they just strand a small force of conscripts up there to keep the savages out and otherwise ignore it.

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If Garlemald was willing to get a senior engineer (re: the Scared Sylla FATE) with a token escort, it would be likely that any attempt at extracting the 6th be protracted since they would need to get only a handful of people out at each time because a smaller airship (the size of the Enterprise or similar) wouldn't attract the attention of the Alliance the way a fleet large enough to tow the Gration would.

If the Gration were valuable enough, they'd put the resources in to tow it back. Yes, it's very big, but it's also a symbol of Garlean might the same way the Agrius was. Logistical nightmare or not, it might be valuable to bring it back regardless.

I don't remember the entire remnant XIVth being a spy agency in service to Varis, just the Ivy (Eline Roaille).

Even if the VIth noticed the Ironworks getting the G-Warrior (or parts used to make it), they lack the manpower and authority to really stop them. Azys Lla is still home to a host of horrors, so it's unlikely they could stop anyone from doing anything up there even if they wanted to.

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Originally Posted by Townowi

If Garlemald was willing to get a senior engineer (re: the Scared Sylla FATE) with a token escort, it would be likely that any attempt at extracting the 6th be protracted since they would need to get only a handful of people out at each time because a smaller airship (the size of the Enterprise or similar) wouldn't attract the attention of the Alliance the way a fleet large enough to tow the Gration would.

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That would also mean they'd have to bring in any materials and equipment they'd need to service it. We can't really know how that would work out without knowing how badly the ship was damaged, but I'd assume it's a lot, given the size of the ship. They'd also have to defend the ship while it's dismantled.

The Ironworks detected an Ixali airship slipping in (again, see the quests leading to Fractal Continuum Hard), so I'm sure they'd notice an engineering team doing that kind of work.

The spy agency thing was just a estimation from the ivy subplot, given that she was a spy and ran to them for assistance it at least implies that the xivth had some role in imperial matters.

Do the Garlond Ironworks, combined with the Immortal Flames summoner squad, together amount to an Eorzean Alliance claim to Azys Lla?

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Originally Posted by Townowi

Do the Garlond Ironworks, combined with the Immortal Flames summoner squad, together amount to an Eorzean Alliance claim to Azys Lla?

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I wasn't aware the Immortal Flames summoner squad was active there... there was the SMN 70 quest up there but there's hardly a Flames presence...

... but no. The Eorzean Alliance has no interest in doing anything on Azys Lla, other than excavating choice pieces of Allagan technology (apparently). Being filled with defunct Allagan facilities nobody can really get into, populated primarily by Allagan horrors, and possessed of few if any natural resources, nobody really can claim dominion over Azys Lla and nobody really has much reason to. Civilizing it would be a massive undertaking costing far more than it's really worth. The only thing of value up there is Allagan technology, which the Garleans (or at least van Hydrus) have deemed useless for their purposes. The Eorzeans doing anything up there at all was a pretty big shock in the Werlyt questline.

No one can devote the resources needed to claim Azys Lla while the war is still ongoing. It's technically in Eorzean territory, but nobody really has any investment in it beyond keeping the other side out.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I wasn't aware the Immortal Flames summoner squad was active there... there was the SMN 70 quest up there but there's hardly a Flames presence...

... but no. The Eorzean Alliance has no interest in doing anything on Azys Lla, other than excavating choice pieces of Allagan technology (apparently). Being filled with defunct Allagan facilities nobody can really get into, populated primarily by Allagan horrors, and possessed of few if any natural resources, nobody really can claim dominion over Azys Lla and nobody really has much reason to. Civilizing it would be a massive undertaking costing far more than it's really worth. The only thing of value up there is Allagan technology, which the Garleans (or at least van Hydrus) have deemed useless for their purposes. The Eorzeans doing anything up there at all was a pretty big shock in the Werlyt questline.

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Also a member of the First Brood who has been wallowing in self-pity for the past five thousand years or so, albeit while being surrounded by the reminders of why she's up there in the first place.

I remember some speculation that Tiamat might not even care if some unscrupulous sorts decided to do a Thordan and take her eyes. Personally I don't actually know if she's that far gone, but she seems not to be concerned about her own well-being to the point where I can't say it's impossible.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I wasn't aware the Immortal Flames summoner squad was active there... there was the SMN 70 quest up there but there's hardly a Flames presence...

... but no. The Eorzean Alliance has no interest in doing anything on Azys Lla, other than excavating choice pieces of Allagan technology (apparently). Being filled with defunct Allagan facilities nobody can really get into, populated primarily by Allagan horrors, and possessed of few if any natural resources, nobody really can claim dominion over Azys Lla and nobody really has much reason to. Civilizing it would be a massive undertaking costing far more than it's really worth. The only thing of value up there is Allagan technology, which the Garleans (or at least van Hydrus) have deemed useless for their purposes. The Eorzeans doing anything up there at all was a pretty big shock in the Werlyt questline.

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I mean, there's Adamantite. That's got value in metallurgy. There's a metric fuck ton of crystals... and as I remember it, it wasn't that the Garleans deemed everything up there useless, just the primal containment bays. Also keep in mind that, within the idea of the time bubble, most of the facilities were warded up by Urianger to keep the Garleans stymied. There's obviously the issue that they have a plethora of dropships, and the technical know how to get into any of the unwarded facilities. They just didn't, for some inexplicable reason. The Garleans on the Gration should have been the first force inside of the Fractal Continuum. It's much like the plot hole where Thordan, seeking power overwhelming for world domination, didn't fly over to the dragon quadrant and get two more eyes before heading into the ARF, despite having ample time and power to do so.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I mean, there's Adamantite. That's got value in metallurgy. There's a metric fuck ton of crystals... and as I remember it, it wasn't that the Garleans deemed everything up there useless, just the primal containment bays. Also keep in mind that, within the idea of the time bubble, most of the facilities were warded up by Urianger to keep the Garleans stymied. There's obviously the issue that they have a plethora of dropships, and the technical know how to get into any of the unwarded facilities. They just didn't, for some inexplicable reason. The Garleans on the Gration should have been the first force inside of the Fractal Continuum. It's much like the plot hole where Thordan, seeking power overwhelming for world domination, didn't fly over to the dragon quadrant and get two more eyes before heading into the ARF, despite having ample time and power to do so.

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Well, in answer to that last, it's possible that the bindings keeping Tiamat contained are just as effective at keeping potential rescuers AWAY. Perhaps obtaining her eyes is not as easy a task as you speculate - at the very least, not worth the effort, in comparison to the power he was about to get from the Triad. The eyes he had were already enough for that purpose. Also, considering what happened to Estinien, it's possible that there's a risk in trying to wield the power of too many eyes at once; becoming a Primal allowed Thordan to get away with handling two, but who's to say what four could do? The fact that Ishgard HAD two eyes, but only ever fielded one, might be an indicator that the papacy has known since the beginning that two at once is just too much...

I thought it was cool how they tied Azys Lla and The House of Crooked Coin in Azim Steppe together, I wish they'd do more of those kinda things in 14.

My guess is those garlean troops are gonna be stuck there forever no matter what the direction of the story goes, like the ones in Mor Shona, East Shroud and Eastern La Noscea.

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Originally Posted by VictorTheed

I thought it was cool how they tied Azys Lla and The House of Crooked Coin in Azim Steppe together, I wish they'd do more of those kinda things in 14.

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Mind clarifying on how those two are tied?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Mind clarifying on how those two are tied?

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Wasn't it that the House of the Crooked Coin was the device used to lift Azys Lla out of the ground in what would become the Burn? This was in 4.4 or 4.5, when we went there with Y'shtola.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Wasn't it that the House of the Crooked Coin was the device used to lift Azys Lla out of the ground in what would become the Burn? This was in 4.4 or 4.5, when we went there with Y'shtola.

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More accurately it was the device used to cut off aetherial circulation to the Burn so the land could be excavated and made into what we now know as Azys Lla.

As for Azys Lla itself... it's pretty much uninhabitable. There are few trustworthy sources of food and no known sources of potable water. It's a wasteland for most intents and purposes, valuable only for the Allagan crap up there. Nothing else is worth the effort of exploring the place, and it's completely not worth civilizing it.

Are the Imperials unable to get to anything due to Scion wards / time bubble? Maybe. Does it make much sense for Thordan to overlook Tiamat as a power source and rush to the Triad? Not really. There are all sorts of logical nitpicks that can be made, though; at the end of the day the Garleans don't have the resources to civilize the territory and the Eorzeans have no interest in doing so. (The Garleans might not want to either.)

So back to the original point... no, I'm pretty sure the VIth Legion can't really lay a claim to Azys Lla given they don't have the resources to civilize it. The Eorzeans don't want to.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Well, in answer to that last, it's possible that the bindings keeping Tiamat contained are just as effective at keeping potential rescuers AWAY. Perhaps obtaining her eyes is not as easy a task as you speculate - at the very least, not worth the effort, in comparison to the power he was about to get from the Triad. The eyes he had were already enough for that purpose. Also, considering what happened to Estinien, it's possible that there's a risk in trying to wield the power of too many eyes at once; becoming a Primal allowed Thordan to get away with handling two, but who's to say what four could do? The fact that Ishgard HAD two eyes, but only ever fielded one, might be an indicator that the papacy has known since the beginning that two at once is just too much...

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Nidhogg is the strongest dragon of the First Brood, and he was defeated by non-primal Elezen who'd gained the power of Ratatoskr's eyes. Thordan at the time only had 1 of Nidhogg's eyes and only ever had the one, since Estinien and the WoL had the other. With that and the entire Heavensward, coupled with the fact that Tiamat is despondent and restrained... yeah it would have been really really REALLY easy for him to take her eyes. We're told she could escape if she wanted, but we're not told how much of an effort she'd have to exert to break her bonds. Point is, they're still a hindrance.

It's not a matter of sheer amount of dragon eyes that lead to Estinien's possession. It was the fact that they were both Nidhogg's eyes, and he had spent most of his adult life entangled with Nidhogg's mind. Quite clearly, when we beat the Aery, he holds Hraesvelgr's eye and Nidhogg's eye, and nothing bad happens to him.

Also now I'm imagining a Thordan with Ascalon, sword with the eye in the hilt. Then a shield with Tiamat's eyes. That'd be ballin'

Re; Thordan and Tiamat, bear in mind that he knew the Empire and the WoL were on his tail, and didn't know if that giant dragon over there (who, it should be noted, he had no reason at all to know about beforehand; Tiamat had no involvement in the Dragonsong War, and has been chained up there since the Allagans still ruled most of the world) would be hostile. Given the trouble that Nidhogg has given Ishgard with one eye for the last thousand years, attacking another giant dragon who still had both eyes while two hostile forces were right behind him would be completely idiotic. He probably figured he could come back for them later, but then we kill him.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Re; Thordan and Tiamat, bear in mind that he knew the Empire and the WoL were on his tail, and didn't know if that giant dragon over there (who, it should be noted, he had no reason at all to know about beforehand; Tiamat had no involvement in the Dragonsong War, and has been chained up there since the Allagans still ruled most of the world) would be hostile. Given the trouble that Nidhogg has given Ishgard with one eye for the last thousand years, attacking another giant dragon who still had both eyes while two hostile forces were right behind him would be completely idiotic. He probably figured he could come back for them later, but then we kill him.

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He knew the WoL was on his tail, somewhat, but not the Empire. They're after Azys Lla itself, and Mr. Pope-hat Archbishop gets into Azys Lla before they even bomb the Zundu. As for Nidhogg giving the Holy See trouble, that was just as much on the Holy See's desire list to reinforce their own control over Ishgard as it was the dragon's tenacity. If they'd wanted to, they could have mounted an offensive using both eyes and their powers long before we arrived and put Nidhogg to death. They didn't, because it would compromise the legitimacy of their rule and air too much dirt, breaking the faithful and weakening the faith aspect of their primal power.

I can concede he wouldn't have known she was weaker than Nidhogg by some league, but given he and the Heavensward had at least a full week of free reign about Azys Lla as well as guidance from the Ascians, as well as the knowledge that their forebears killed a First Brood great wyrm without any special powers... it's not idiotic at all. The end of Heavensward's plot suffers from having us have to catch up to the villain, and realistically, the villain had no reason to wait on us, other than to maybe see if we could kill the Ascians for them. But that just begs the question, if they didn't think themselves capable of beating the Ascians themselves, then why would they think themselves capable of beating us? /shrug

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

He knew the WoL was on his tail, somewhat, but not the Empire. They're after Azys Lla itself, and Mr. Pope-hat Archbishop gets into Azys Lla before they even bomb the Zundu.

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It's hard to imagine that they wouldn't notice the Gration out there, especially considering that the Empire even beats us into the Aetherochemical Research Facility, where Regula van Hydrus is the first boss.

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As for Nidhogg giving the Holy See trouble, that was just as much on the Holy See's desire list to reinforce their own control over Ishgard as it was the dragon's tenacity. If they'd wanted to, they could have mounted an offensive using both eyes and their powers long before we arrived and put Nidhogg to death. They didn't, because it would compromise the legitimacy of their rule and air too much dirt, breaking the faithful and weakening the faith aspect of their primal power.

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The plot with the Primal Thordan was recent. It doesn't justify the entirety of a thousand-year war. Nidhogg had also defeated previous Azure Dragoons who tried to use one Eye against him by influencing their minds (see the 30-50 dragoon quests), which was a known problem with them. Bringing both of his Eyes together also proves an extremely terrible idea later with Estinien. Also, the Heavens' Ward were already under primal influence (given that four of them use their primal forms beforehand, in the Vault, it seems clear that they'd already conducted at least a partial summoning), so it's entirely reasonable to assume that they weren't thinking rationally anymore.

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I can concede he wouldn't have known she was weaker than Nidhogg by some league, but given he and the Heavensward had at least a full week of free reign about Azys Lla as well as guidance from the Ascians, as well as the knowledge that their forebears killed a First Brood great wyrm without any special powers... it's not idiotic at all.

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We don't really have a time scale for how long they were there due to the time bubble, and the Ascians weren't exactly fully cooperative. Both sides were locked in trying to double-cross each other without the other side knowing.

Their ancestors killed Ratatoskr by ambushing her while she already trusted them and had her guard down; no other dragon is gonna fall for that again. And taking Nidhogg's eyes, they had the power of both of Ratatoskr's, and still lost half their number and the first King Thordan in the process, so it was hardly a clean victory.

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The end of Heavensward's plot suffers from having us have to catch up to the villain, and realistically, the villain had no reason to wait on us, other than to maybe see if we could kill the Ascians for them. But that just begs the question, if they didn't think themselves capable of beating the Ascians themselves, then why would they think themselves capable of beating us? /shrug

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I feel that a lot of it comes from Lahabrea being a cackling loony who loves to ham up the villain role, at least on the Ascian side. As for Thordan, he likely knew that we'd defeated Lahabrea once already and was counting on us to weaken him enough to spring their trap with the primal summoning, while counting on the Ascians to soften us up enough to defeat once Thordan had his fully-powered primal form. He was trying to play his enemies against each other; it just doesn't work out because we're that badass (hence his horrified dying scream of "WHAT ARE YOU?!?!").

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The Gration is dummy thicc

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Considering the cloud cover up there is dense enough to cloak it such that it is totally obfuscated enough to ambush the Excelsior... it's just as likely that they didn't see it. The Empire beat us to the Research Facility because we suffer from a chronic case of damaged airship... so we had to hoof it to teleporters. They had aerial dropships.

They were all lucid enough to formulate the setup in the Vault, talk Aymeric down with a reasoned, if not old, argument against divulging the truth. Also all lucid enough to have their own wills, such as Grinnaux attempting to try Alphinaud and Tataru for heresy.

We have a solid few days at least. First there's the travel to Gridania and the night spent for Y'shtola to recuperate after being yanked out of the Lifestream. Then there's the time spent traveling to Dravanian Forelands > Hinterlands > Idyllshire. The time spent going to Matoya's, pilfering the Gubal Library, and then the subsequent extra nights for Cid to read, process, and make a concept real for the aetheric ram.

Tiamat doesn't exactly have her guard up, and like I said before, even if she can break out of the restraints there's no telling how easy it would be for her. She is despondent, and I'd say odds are equal that she'd just let them kill her, but even if she did resist, Thordan VII and his Heavens Ward would have the upper hand. Not too mention, when they beat Nidhogg, Haldrath has both of Nidhogg's eyes and keeps them at first. It's not until Nidhogg had Hraesvelgr's eye that he was able to start enacting his will on the ones with his eyes. Tiamat has no such knowledge, and would have no fall back dragon to seek an eye from. Dragons can sense one another, heck, eye users can sense dragons too. Hraesvelgr could sense Tiamat at Azys Lla, and he didn't even drop in to see her. In the days before we pierce the shield, there's also no avenue for Tiamat to leave. Basically, they didn't get them some nearly free eyes cause it wasn't in the script. That's it.

Well, even if that were so, it basically assumes that Mr. Pope-hat and Lahabreadloaf were operating under the assumption that we'd find a way to pierce Azys Lla's barrier. We did, but as I've said, it's days at the very least until we do that. The key from Bismarck gave them free reign of the entirety of Azys Lla. They could have still played the Ascians while getting what they sought.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

As for Nidhogg giving the Holy See trouble, that was just as much on the Holy See's desire list to reinforce their own control over Ishgard as it was the dragon's tenacity.

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No, the MSQ makes it very clear that the war was Nidhogg's to win at any time he pleased. The war lasted for a thousand years, because Nidhogg wished to torture them for as long as possible before finishing them off. While the Holy See DID use the war as a means to secure their legitimacy, the danger and desperation was very real The See was not doing anything to prolong the war for their own benefit, and there's nothing beyond player speculation to indicate that they had.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Well, even if that were so, it basically assumes that Mr. Pope-hat and Lahabreadloaf were operating under the assumption that we'd find a way to pierce Azys Lla's barrier. We did, but as I've said, it's days at the very least until we do that. The key from Bismarck gave them free reign of the entirety of Azys Lla. They could have still played the Ascians while getting what they sought.

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If you expand TIME, don't forget to expand DISTANCE, as well. Everything in the game is scaled down for player convenience. Azys Lla, by the same token, is enormous; while Thordan may have had days upon reaching Azys Lla, it very likely took him days just to get up to the Flagship, bypass the Allagan defenses, and access the Singularity Reactor. He didn't have time to sightsee. It's quite unlikely that he knew that Tiamat was there, so unless the Ascians told him about her, he would not have known. (And that's assuming that even the Ascians know about her - they are not omniscient, and it's unlikely that they kept track of each and every atrocity the Allagans committed.)

Additionally, there's a lot more we don't know about dragon eyes than that we do. We know they can be used as a power source. We don't know how EASY it is to use them as a power source. We don't know whether using one dragon's eyes is exactly the same as using another. A thousand years of using Nidhogg's does not mean he wouldn't be starting from square one while using Tiamat's. And that's even assuming Thordan knows how to use the Eyes he has! Use of the Eye of Nidhogg has been the duty of the Azure Dragoons since pretty much day one, and it's unlikely that Thordan has gone through Azure Dragoon training. The Asicans might be the only reason his plan was workable at all. They could probably have instructed Thordan in the use of Tiamat's eyes, as well, but because they did not encourage him to acquire them we can assume they either didn't know about her or felt it would have been time not well spent (whether this is due to typical Ascian overconfidence, or because it really WOULD have been a poor use of time is irrelevant).

I could go on; there's all kinds of potential reasons Thordan did not kill Tiamat, but, the bottom line is that we're once again at a situation similar to that of the "why not just" thread we had a couple weeks ago regarding dealing with the Light Aether the WoL was overcharged by. Players are imaginative. The writers cannot possibly anticipate every idea the players could possibly come up with - and even if they could, few would have the patience to wade through the walls o' text that would be necessary to cover every possible contingency. There comes a point where you have to accept that your clever idea isn't as obvious as you think it is (this is the first time I've seen it brought up, so it's not as though the majority of the playerbase has been scratching their heads thinking about it since Heavensward) - the writers either didn't think of it, or they have inside knowledge that would preclude it but felt that would be too clunky to write into the script, or it's perfectly VALID, but the writers still felt it would be too clunky to work into the script.

And, as imaginitve as you are, the others on this forum are just as imaginitive, and will be able to come up with counters that explain away the idea. And you will imaginatively come up with counter-counterarguments, and things will continue to go back and forth until folks get tired of debating.

Back in the days when I read Marvel Comics, there were often a section where letters from fans would be printed. Occasionally, letters exposing a continuity error would be printed as well - but the editors had a rule about those. If you wanted to see your mail printed, you not only had to talk about the error, but ALSO supply an EXPLANATION that solved it. (Doing so would also award you the prestigious "No-Prize" award - accept no substitutes!) I always saw this as a brilliant move. It's not hard to poke holes in a narrative - it's REALLY not hard at all. For even the most talented of writers, there's likely a reader out there who's even smarter. There's always a bigger fish, after all!

Narratives cannot be expected to be bulletproof; the best you can hope for is that what holes are there are not glaringly obvious holes. The "butcher Tiamat" hole is not one such hole.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

They were all lucid enough to formulate the setup in the Vault, talk Aymeric down with a reasoned, if not old, argument against divulging the truth. Also all lucid enough to have their own wills, such as Grinnaux attempting to try Alphinaud and Tataru for heresy.

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Back in 2.X (I want to say 2.2, but the ARR patches kinda blur together to me), the sahagin and the Serpent Reavers were lucid enough to set up a crystal-smuggling operation in Thanalan, including infiltrating the Brass Blades, knowing it would be blamed on the Amalj'aa and buy them enough time to collect the crystals needed to summon Leviathan. In 4.1, some of the Resistance troops were tempered by Lakshmi and hid it until she was summoned into the throne room, including smuggling in crystals beforehand to help facilitate it. Tempered people can sometimes act perfectly normal until their goal is in sight. They tend to throw caution to the wind at that point.

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We have a solid few days at least. First there's the travel to Gridania and the night spent for Y'shtola to recuperate after being yanked out of the Lifestream. Then there's the time spent traveling to Dravanian Forelands > Hinterlands > Idyllshire. The time spent going to Matoya's, pilfering the Gubal Library, and then the subsequent extra nights for Cid to read, process, and make a concept real for the aetheric ram.

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This really just spins back into the problem of the time bubble. We'll never know exactly how long it should've taken because the game doesn't have a concrete timeline for anything past the start of ARR.

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Tiamat doesn't exactly have her guard up, and like I said before, even if she can break out of the restraints there's no telling how easy it would be for her. She is despondent, and I'd say odds are equal that she'd just let them kill her, but even if she did resist, Thordan VII and his Heavens Ward would have the upper hand. Not too mention, when they beat Nidhogg, Haldrath has both of Nidhogg's eyes and keeps them at first. It's not until Nidhogg had Hraesvelgr's eye that he was able to start enacting his will on the ones with his eyes. Tiamat has no such knowledge, and would have no fall back dragon to seek an eye from. Dragons can sense one another, heck, eye users can sense dragons too. Hraesvelgr could sense Tiamat at Azys Lla, and he didn't even drop in to see her. In the days before we pierce the shield, there's also no avenue for Tiamat to leave. Basically, they didn't get them some nearly free eyes cause it wasn't in the script. That's it.

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This still doesn't answer how Thordan would know any of this. The only ones who seemed to know about Tiamat beforehand were the other dragons, who seem more or less willing to leave her to her self-imposed penance, and the Ascians, who aren't exactly fond of giving any information they don't think will serve their own ends. All that Thordan's group would know is "There's a big dragon over there, it's not coming after us, we've got another goal first." Again, I don't doubt they would've gone for her afterwards (primals seeking more and more aether, assuming that having Nidhogg's eyes plus drawing on the power of the still-sealed Warring Triad, Thordan's general god complex), but they all die before they get a chance.

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Well, even if that were so, it basically assumes that Mr. Pope-hat and Lahabreadloaf were operating under the assumption that we'd find a way to pierce Azys Lla's barrier. We did, but as I've said, it's days at the very least until we do that. The key from Bismarck gave them free reign of the entirety of Azys Lla. They could have still played the Ascians while getting what they sought.

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Why would they not assume we'd come after them? We've never failed to find a way through all of the other impossible situations we've come across.

Azys Lla has plenty of other horrors to keep them busy for a while. I doubt they had free reign of anything when there's a new aetherochemical abomination waiting around every corner. It seems safe to assume that they had to fight their way into the Singularity Reactor just like we did, albeit presumably from a different path.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

This still doesn't answer how Thordan would know any of this. The only ones who seemed to know about Tiamat beforehand were the other dragons, who seem more or less willing to leave her to her self-imposed penance, and the Ascians, who aren't exactly fond of giving any information they don't think will serve their own ends. All that Thordan's group would know is "There's a big dragon over there, it's not coming after us, we've got another goal first." Again, I don't doubt they would've gone for her afterwards (primals seeking more and more aether, assuming that having Nidhogg's eyes plus drawing on the power of the still-sealed Warring Triad, Thordan's general god complex), but they all die before they get a chance.

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Admittedly I can also totally see Lahabrea go "lol it's just a dragon, it's nothing compared to WE ALL-POWERFUL ASCIANS, who cares about eyes" all the way until he got sucked into a dragon eye himself.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Admittedly I can also totally see Lahabrea go "lol it's just a dragon, it's nothing compared to WE ALL-POWERFUL ASCIANS, who cares about eyes" all the way until he got sucked into a dragon eye himself.

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This is essentially how it played out. The dragons are aliens from another planet that made a deal with Hydaelyn. So they are "less" ancient than the Ancients/Amourtians/Ascians who would see themselves as superior. In Heavensward the dragons were nothing but pawns to the Ascians.

Nidhogg is a useful pawn because he's too blinded by rage and vengeance to think of anything else, and his Eyes are useful for their stored aether after his spirit departs. Tiamat was useful back in the Allagan age when her grief over the death of Bahamut made her more pliable. Otherwise, the Ascians tend to leave dragons alone. Probably because, as the only biologically immortal race (dragons don't die of age, they just keep getting stronger; the only thing that separates a wyrmling from Midgardsormr is time, albeit a huge gulf of it), they have long enough memories that the Ascians' reliance on fading into myth between Calamities won't work.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Bulletproof Monk

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No, the MSQ makes it very clear that Nidhogg wasn't waging a war of destruction, but a war of suffering. He never had the advantage beyond the sheer number of dragons answering his call. Each Arch Bishop perpetuated a lie about his very origins in order to prolong High House authority and papal rule. Without the Dragonsong War raging, they felt their rule unjustified and that they would not be able to conrol the populace. I don't doubt the dragon hordes could have razed Ishgard to the ground, but the papacy could have kill Nidhogg at any time by brandishing the second eye. The very ancestors of the High Houses that we see could have done it themselves, along with Haldrath, once Nidhogg received Hraesvelgr's eye. They chose not to, again, in order to perpetuate their rule and cover up their besmirched honor.

If we expand time and distance, then it expands for the WoL too, and since it is a longer distance at a slower rate of travel until Midgardsormr grants you his wings, then that leaves the WoL even further behind, granting Thordan VII even more leeway to go kill Tiamat. Also, he did not have to bypass the defenses. The key gained from Bismarck that reactivated Azys Lla and made it descend, the same key that allowed the Soleil through the forcefield gave him administrator level access. Thordan VII and the Heavens Ward really got to come and go as they pleased due to that. The only thing up in the air is the particulars of the alternate path they used to go to the Singularity Reactor, where they docked the Soleil, and why they hadn't already enacted their plan.

As for using the Eye, well it's so easy a cave man could do it. It seems to be as simple as holding it up and channeling the aether within it. Estinien does this for the Aetheric Ram. The WoL does it, with no prior DRG training beyond standard DRG, to kill Igeyohrm. There are also three DRGs in the Heavens Ward.

As for writing the death of Tiamat into the plot, it could have been done quite easily, since we were shown earlier that the great wyrms are capable of living without their eyes for a period of time long enough to fly off somewhere else, like Nidhogg did when he beseeched Hraesvelgr for an eye. Just imagine events going the same way, only we get up to Tiamat and she has no eyes, and instead of telling us just of her despondency, but also her impending death that she feels she deserves. It'd even up the stakes, because now instead of just 1 eye, Ascians, and the possibility of gaining immeasurable power from the Warring Triad, Thordan VII has three eyes.

If Thordan VII not killing Tiamat isn't a glaringly obvious hole, then it's at least a glaringly obvious chekhov's gun. That term gets thrown around a lot with FFXIV, but boy-o, do we still have quite a few still mounted on the wall. I assume they left her alive due to not wanting to hamfist in another dragon fight in the middle of the climax's momentum, but also in order to leave themselves crumbs for future storylines without robbing any FFI fans of the future possibility of slaying Tiamat like Sakaguchi intended! /wink

But seriously, often times when a story is new and we are just purely enjoying it we do not question plot holes. I think the trope term is, "fridge logic." You get so caught up in what's happening, you don't think about it until way later after you've cooled your jets. I've ruminated on Tiamat being there and just being there ever since our first and only interaction with her in Heavensward. It isn't really something I got imaginative about, just something that occurred to me on what's my 8th playthrough of this storyline(though it is the first time where I've really taken long hard looks at what's presented). The reason I come to this forum at all is due to the interesting imaginings of the posters here, cause yes, a lot of them have imagination more plentiful than me. That's why this sort of banter is fun.

It's less about poking holes in one of my favorite stories, and more about offering different perception

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

How would he know

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So, Thordan and his cronies flew in on an airship. Their airship was not damaged. Due to the Allagan key, they had admin level access to all facilities in Azys Lla. Other than rogue monstrosities, they didn't have to fight anything. This means they could fly directly to the ARF, or any other of the quadrants or facilities. This means that back when we beat Bismarck and followed them up there, that they got to go enter the ARF right then. Then we took days before we even got back within aetheric ramming distance of Azys Lla's barrier.

For particulars about Tiamat, such as her despondency, he wouldn't have to know, he could operate under the assumption that she was properly restrained, having not broken out of those restraints in 5000 years. Beyond that, he could have read about her in Azys Lla's database, since the key gives him full access.

As for why they'd assume we wouldn't reach them, that's the only other reason beyond, "Lay a showy ostentatious trap for the Ascians." that would have them twiddle their thumbs for days just waiting for us to show up. If they figured we were going to turn up sooner, rather than later, they wouldn't have waited to enact their plan. Why take the chance? Even if they had to fight, the Heavens' Ward are all powerful enough to be dungeon bosses versus dungeon trash. There are 12 of them.

Basically the last few levels of Heavensward's MSQ momentum assumes the player is blowing through it, not paying attention to the in game time passing, so that it seems like we're not far behind the Arch Bishop, when in fact, we are way behind the Arch Bishop.