May seem like a strange topic to bring up (though this is meant more for RP servers in FFXIV) but with the new patch bringing people back and lots of RP events filling up with people again, I noticed the topic coming up of what is canon and what isn't (such as people bringing up the mention of anything from the first as if their character has been there.)
Now I know it is impossible to really put down for all players to agree on what is allowed and what they will accept but perhaps in this thread we can at least get an idea of what should be accepted by at least a good amount of players.
Like for myself, the discussions of a PC being a warrior of light/darkness, the first (or shadowbringers in general), and just being able to travel there as a PC should be canon.
I do want to get this thread going to get an idea of what a lot of RPers or lore nuts see as acceptable.
What is canon and what is not (Spoilers)
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08-21-2020, 11:58 AMRuinfeildWhat is canon and what is not (Spoilers)
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08-21-2020, 12:10 PMValkyrie_Lenneth
If it happens in the story, its canon, anything player made is not canon.
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08-21-2020, 12:12 PMWhiteArchmage
The general rule I think is that:
Anything in the MSQ is hard canon.
Sidequests are semi-canon until the MSQ brings them up and confirms them. Like Crystal Tower which has been deemed canon since 5.3 (technically speaking since 5.0, but with some Time Travel Tense Problem meaning that it's happened in the past but can still happen in your future, but 5.3 NEEDS the events of CT)
Omega, Alexander, and Coil are kind of canon in that the first 2 are not REQUIRED for 5.x, but greatly flesh it out.
Ivalice is generally canon as of 4.5, given that the Dalmascan Resistance shows up in an Easter Egg; and the Wandering Dramaturge from the Prima Vista is now in the Blades of Gunhildr storyline.
IIRC the only thing not SUPER canon are Hildibrand Quests... and even then I'm not that sure because the Scholasticate quests needed the ARR Hildibrand quests to unlock, and Ultros, Typhon, and Yojimbo have become part of the Gold Saucer...
However, technically speaking, the PC is not the only one of Hydaelin's Chosen (there are other people in the opening cutscene), but IS the only "Warrior of Light". The other PCs you run into are random adventurers who are probably Echo-blessed so as to fight primals but aren't THE WoL/D. The game, at least, doesn't treat their race/gender combinations as anything special (like Moonkeeper Miqo'te Males being rare, or Au Ra not being shot on sight in Coerthas pre-3.0); any Lore about it would be the RPers personal backstory, I'm guessing.
And traveling to/from the First... afaik only The WoL/D should be able to do that in both body and soul... any Loremongers are free to correct me on this one. -
08-21-2020, 12:18 PMDamianFataleThe thing about Coerthas happened. A tribe of Au Ra migrated to Coerthas and was almost completely wiped out. Only one person remains. He is the Dark Knight quest giver.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage
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08-21-2020, 12:30 PMMariaArvanaConsidering it took harnessing the power of an almightily powerful construct like Omega to travel across the rift, pretty much anyone that's not the WoL of the story/An ascian would never be able to travel there unless the MSQ showcases another method to do so. In the current MSQ, only the player character has the ability to travel between worlds.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage
Which to answer the OP's thoughts, is while they're canon, you'd have to write some intensely extreme reason why your RP character can even travel there in the first place, to the point it'd be heavily immersion breaking unless you're just straight up RPing as the WoL/An Ascian (Both of which are generally frowned upon, afaik, as many people see it as far too 'snowflakey' and many aren't interested in RPing with such characters. Also because tbh, they're extremely boring cop-outs for writing an intricate life story for your character.)
So pretty much unless you RP with others that want to bring the First and those types of themes into it and don't mind bending lore to do so, RPing as a WoL/WoD & interacting with the first are very frowned upon. -
08-21-2020, 12:45 PMRuinfeild
MSQ being hard canon I get but didn't know much about the side quests (since Balmung has a wide range of characters who play as what they want). So the MSQ being hard canon is one I think everyone can agree on (and even side quests depending on what they are and who has done them).
When it comes to the WoL/Ascian, it is subjective if they are boring and the like but people still like to try or even do play as them. Sure there are a lot more as WhiteArchmage put it that play as being echo gifted and the like but with 5.3, it does bring up the question if our characters can be WoL without it being frowned upon and that SE just hasn't done/said anything in terms of the story or out of it (in interviews or fanfest) that our characters and those we meet are also the WoL/WoD.
Another thing that I had been thinking of was the fact that a lot of people subscribe to the 'only the Hyur in the trailers is the true WoL'. However, I do wonder if he is just meant to be the placeholder/stand in for our own PC characters. -
08-21-2020, 12:51 PMEnlaI tend to RP the WoL as a nebulous, agendered and non-racial being just to keep things fluid between RP encounters. Better if they never come up, but if they do I'm comfortable using the most basic and non-identity confirming details just to keep things easier across the board. About my only rule is that if my characters meet someone actually claiming to be THE WoL they're going to laugh themselves into a stupor and I'll likely immediately cut the scene. I don't have many rules with my RP but I don't enjoy RPing with people who play as either NPCs or as the big, bad hero of the whole story. It breaks my immersion five ways to Tuesday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinfeild
Nothing against NPC roleplayers, but I've been to one too many RP events where one has absolutely gone off the deep end and ruined the experience. Such as Nanamo showing up to an RP fight club and then proceed to try and order everyone around and tried to take over the event. It sadly was not a troll.
Beyond that I feel people can RP whatever they want, so long as they accept that not everyone will agree or want to RP back if it breaks their definition of the lore. -
08-21-2020, 12:58 PMkaynide
Pretty much echoing the above, but truth be told I would say any content that involves the Scions or Ironworks is Canon for the WoL/D.
I would specifically state any of the Minstrel versions of trials are obviously not actual events but “retellings”.
To Rp, all one need do is:
A) assume you are not involved with any of it aside from hearing about it. Here you can just hook into anything really.
B) assume you were in the WoL/D’s group for a particular battle by chance (like being taken prisoner by Amal’ja before Ifrit)
C) assume you are a rank and file adventurer, involved in Grand Company operations/battles/events often overlapping with MSQ battles like Praetorium.
Regarding interacting with the First, the only real option is being a fairy at this point, or seeing visions via fairy..even then it’s...ehh...
That said I fully expect Y’shtola to full speed ahead in working out how to make a more permanent solution for planar travel. -
08-21-2020, 01:09 PMIscah
The optional stories are still canon - it's just that canon will twist itself sideways to refer to a non-canon version of events if you didn't do it yourself.
For any version of the story that comes from outside of your personal view within the game, such as the lore book's summary of events or the "Tales From The..." series, the side stories have definitely happened. There is no question that they have.
Even when they are not enforced, everything points to them happening. Alisaie sets off on a journey at the end of the Binding Coil and her re-entry to MSQ in post-Heavensward mentions that she's been on one.
Even pre-Shadowbringers, CT was a piece of Cid and Nero's ongoing story - and the first time we'd encountered Nero as an ally, not an enemy.
Alexander and Omega are critical to the background of Shadowbringers, even if the game doesn't force you to do them here and now.
Warring Triad gives more detail on Meracydia, Allag, the Thirteenth and a little more insight into Elidibus. Certain details tie into what we learn in the Lv70-80 role quests.
Eden is heavily linked to the MSQ, to the point that they had to note the Scions' departure from it before the final act.
Not everything ties into MSQ, but there is a clear precedent.
TL;DR: All side stories are canon and happen at the point in the MSQ where they are unlocked. This is the writers' intent, even if they won't actually force you to complete them unless it affects the current state of something MSQ-related. -
08-21-2020, 01:09 PMStepjam
The trailer WoL is just a stand in for our character. The WoL is "canonically" whoever the player plays them as. And yeah, anything that happens in game is canon. Personal RP stuff is less so, though that doesn't mean you can't do it.
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08-21-2020, 02:01 PMJennah
If you're RPing, *You* haven't been to the First. You've probably heard rumors by now though, especially with the Scions waking up.
Exceptions:
1) You are RPing as the Warrior of Light herself (do not do this)
2) You are secretly an Ascian (also do not do this)
3) Your character can shift to different dimensions at will (there's a term for that, and it rhymes with Larry Blue)
4) You were a big enough deal as a hero to be summoned to the climax of 5.0 or 5.3. (Chances are, you immediately went back home. Or died.)
5) Your entire group is based on the First (in which case you haven't been to *the Source*, but you probably know about the Source by now.)
If you aren't RPing, then of course it's canon. Duh. -
08-21-2020, 02:17 PMRitsukoSonoda
Canon is a company that manufactures decent quality affordable printers. :P
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08-21-2020, 02:17 PMGula
There is no such thing as soft canon here. Either it exists or it doesn't.
It's not like, say Kingdom Hearts with its novellas and manga. Is it 1.0? Then it's canon. Is it a side quest? It's canon. Is it a minion description? It's canon.
Did I player theorize that something is possible because of circumstance X Y and Z? It's not canon.
BUT!
That's the point of RP. To play a role. And you can always find someone down to share your ideas. -
08-21-2020, 03:46 PMNanaWiloh
Canon? Ya I use those over at Limsa to fire Lala's off into the distance.
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08-21-2020, 04:01 PMVenKitsuneThats not specifically true. For example, pretty much ALL of the ARR Primals were canonically solo'd by the warrior of light, he/she did not have 7 friends that all conveniently have the echo along to help kill them. So despite the game clearly putting you in a full party, it isnt canon. This is especially noticeable on the very first primal you fight, ifrit - You're captured alongside some flames soldiers and everyone but you gets tempered, the amaljaa run away when they take you for some unholy abomination that can resist their lords will and then you fight ifrit. During that whole exchange the WOL did not have time to go out and find 3 people with the echo to help fight Ifrit, especially when you're introduced to minfillia they all act as if echo is an extremely rare thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
To answer OP's question - All the other "Adventurers" in the first are native to the first, canonically. The WOL/WOD is the ONLY person or thing that can travel between worlds at will. After all, The Crystal exarch summoned specifically the Source's Warrior of Light (Player), of which there is only one and it wouldn't make sense for rando adventurer's to be able to travel between worlds at will especially when the scions could not. -
08-21-2020, 04:23 PMGemina
Virtually everything is canon, and it would be easier to mention the things that aren't. Even all the little fetch quests are part of the WoL's demeanor, and that even most menial and mundane tasks are not beyond their helping hands.
Even if I was to use the Omega raids which do not tie into the MSQ directly, Omega itself has a massive role in the game's lore, and affiliation with the characters within the MSQ. But the whole 'tournament' and eventually owning the robot? That's what the WoL does when they are told to go and rest for a while. The MSQ stops acknowledging Omega, but all those events still happened.
So yeah, like 99% canon. Including the oil rubdown you gave Godbert, which he will never let you forget. -
08-21-2020, 05:16 PMKayRadleyIn regards to the First: I think the same deal applies with other players as in the Source. You are the Warrior of Darkness and able to move freely between worlds, they are inhabitants of the First.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage
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08-21-2020, 11:51 PMBright-Flower
I treat basically anything as canon except for the crossover promotional events.
That said, very few people actually roleplay being the Warrior of Light/Darkness in the RP community because that whole idea falls apart very quickly, and also beholdens you to a linear story instead of RPing whatever you want for your character's story. If everyone 'is the Warrior of Light' or even just five people in the same room, it gets ridiculous because the story is written very clearly with a singular protagonist in mind, and having everyone say they experienced the same events is very limiting.
As for people going to the First, it's not exactly an easy task to do but I believe Yoshi P in an interview basically gave his blessing for people to do that if they want to in their RP as non WOLS but I'd have to go looking for the exact quote. But in the context of the msq it doesnt' really make much sense because it's a pretty big point that only the WOL is able to freely make that journey. On the other hand, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to cut an entire expansion worth of zones and story out of their RP so I have no issue with people RPing ways to do it. -
08-22-2020, 12:59 AMMorningstar1337
The thing is just because its canon doesn't mean it's RP friendly unless you love getting Mary Sue accusations (which is also why people discourage RP as the WoL or an Asican, well one of the reasons anyway) or finding some contrived explanation to attempt to justify it.
The way I see it, the appeal of RP for some is to immerse yourself in the world and therefore "live" as an average person (NOTE: I speak in relative terms, I'm certain there are a few RPers that play as above average compared to their neighbors but still don't match up to the WoL's power) there. Such a person is unlikely to have any affiliation with the Scions or beings from other universes,and winding up in most of the encounters they have would be a death sentence for them. Hell unless they are a traveler themselves they are pretty unlikely to know about events beyond their nation of origin beyond the rumors and big news.
But that doesn't mean there aren't RP'ers interested in playing as dimensional travelers, but it does mean that they are very few and far between (and probably in relative isolation depending on the RP community). -
08-22-2020, 01:23 AMCatwho
Canon is the material in the game. RP is what you do with it.
If you've got people arguing that your RP isn't "respecting canon" and giving you a hard time about it, then it might be time to consider finding a new group of folks to RP with. I've got a WoL non-RP main character, a Voidsent in a Lala's body, a fairy godmother who has the Echo and can also use Flow to teleport wherever she wants in RP (boom! surprise grandma!), a geomancer hiding out in the Conjurer's guild, and a robot Viera made by the Garleans who was found deactivated in Rabanastre and taken to Eorzea by the Ironworks, who got her functioning again.
Are any of the non-WOL ideas "canon" in the story sense! No, of course not! Are they still fun to RP? Heck yeah! -
08-22-2020, 01:51 AMBrightamethyst
Everything in the game is canon unless specifically stated otherwise (e.g. EX trials being reimaginings by the Wandering Minstrel, not actually battles the WoL fought.) Even quests that you personally haven't done canonically happened and you just didn't see them. It's like skipping pages in a book. The parts you didn't read are still canon.
The only sort of exceptions to this are are crossover events and Hildibrand, which are technically canon but exist outside of normal continuity and don't interact with the rest of the story. -
08-22-2020, 02:26 AMMelichoir
My understanding is that more or less, if it's handed to you by a quest giver and isnt a Cross over Event - its canon.
If you want to be more nuanced, MSQ is hard Canon. This is the undisputed story, but it will take liberties in assuming youve participated in certain side events at times.
Side Quests, Beast tribe Quests, Raids, etc are all soft canon events and they exist more to flesh out the world and explain some of the things going on that influence the MSQ. You dont have to do them, but they do impact your understanding of whats going on in the MSQ and the world at large. There are admittedly inconsistencies in the timeline of things, but that is just the nature of playing an MMO. Not much you can do about that.
As examples: CT, Alexander Raids, and Omega Weapon help fully explain how ShB can even occur as technology from these events allow for the creation of the tower machination that makes the CT go to the first in the first place. If you havent done it, it is implied you know about it and the MSQ kind of glosses over this. But these events do take place one way or another, regardless of your involvement.
Event Holiday Quests are incredibly loose canon. They do happen and the NPCs will recognize you if you do the event repeatedly through the years, but what happens isnt reflected in MSQ or indicative on how much time has passed. It's almost like Holiday Quests are in their own separate timeline from the MSQ. Holiday quests may reference MSQ stuff loosely on occassion, but very rarely do the actually impact one another.
Cross Over Quests are canon in name only. They dont affect MSQ or seem to have any real world impact on things. These are purely cosmetic sub mini stories and games. -
08-22-2020, 02:43 AMRuinfeildI did a quick search and came up with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright-Flower
https://brytedarklyt.tumblr.com/post...related_post=1
So if this is true (even with the source link), it does seem like Yoshi-P is indeed giving his blessings to RPers who are just simple adventurer's to be able to travel to the first and back to the source.
The question now becomes though that despite yes, even though Yoshi-P supports the idea of normal adventurer's going to the first and back because it is all about making the players own fun, will the RP community be able to accept it and move on or still throw in the excuse of 'but the story says x and y'
Even though I know in RP it is all about having fun and creating a character you enjoy within reason of course (not like x character is the son of these two named NPC's but was actually adopted and y is their father), but I seen new RPers and those wanting to get into it put off because of how fractured the community can be.
Edit: First link I looked at also had to do with the topic and seemed the discussion was more pointed at the question being asked for lore purposes and it wasn't really an answer other than 'RP how you want and not worry about what others think' -
08-22-2020, 03:25 AMMariaArvanaI mean what do you expect him to say when being asked an innocent question like that? "NO, WOL ONLY YOU DARN RPERS"? 90% chance he'd say something similar if someone asked if they could RP WOW's horde invading Eorzea through a portal or just joke and say "whatever you guys find fun!". He's not gonna try and fun police people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinfeild
For many people, wanting to RP is to immerse yourself in the world and all its limitations, physics, etc. Every last bit of the lore to this day has stated that travelling to the First is basically impossible outside of supernatural or super-engineering feats, which nobody but the most mary-sue like characters are going to have the means to do so. So by wanting to explore themes and settings that are impossible to reach by all except for a very small amount of people, you're naturally going to shun a vast majority of people who want to stay bound by the lore of the universe the devs have created or turn them off from Rping with you due to your character having mary-sue like properties. It's not an excuse; its simple lore-adhering.
But like any RP, it's about the groups you find. You could RP anything you want in FF14 and bend the lore as much as you like, just find a group of like-minded individuals who are interested, and leave anyone who's not interested alone instead of trying to convince them otherwise. -
08-22-2020, 03:32 AMIscahActually it's sort of the opposite. The "undisputed story" as intended by the writers includes the optional events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
Meanwhile, it does not assume you've participated in events if you haven't - this is where canon starts to twist itself according to your individual game progress.
The canon version of the Binding Coil, for example, ends with Alisaie inspired to depart on a journey of self-discovery. When she rejoins you, she makes reference to that time you spent together.
If you haven't progressed the Coils storyline by that point in the MSQ, she will instead mention your partial progress, or maybe that you haven't met since you first encountered each other early in the game, and she's been on a journey for some vague reason. It's a less satisfying version of events, and it's not how the story is supposed to go, but the game will do its best to alter the dialogue to your individual situation if you don't look too closely at the rough edges. It's only meant to be a temporary non-canon version of events until you see how the story actually played out.
Of course, this approach only works because Alisaie isn't visibly in any different a state whether you completed the story or not, so the difference can be swept over with a few altered lines of dialogue. If the state of something has actually changed, the MSQ will probably avoid referencing it - but may make the earlier quest a prerequisite if it's necessary.
On your hidden paragraph (spoilers up to 5.3):
The CT/Alexander/Omega trio are a special case because of the time travel element. The game is not pretending you have done them by the point that Shadowbringers takes place - only that they will have happened by the future point that Cid needs the information to develop his time machine concept. This is why the game can treat them as definite fact without requiring you to have done them first. If you haven't done CT during 5.0 then the Exarch will say that you haven't met his past self yet.
Again, the reasoning is quite flimsy if you look at it too closely and it all makes a lot more sense if you did the other stories when you should have, but their route around it is not pretending that you've completed them.
Note that the Crystal Tower alone has become mandatory as of 5.3 - not because of its importance to Shadowbringers' plot but because it is absolutely necessary for those events to have happened first. You cannot find G'raha Tia asleep in the tower if he hasn't shut himself in there first. If the writers simply pretended you'd done things when you haven't, this wouldn't be a problem - you'd simply find him there whether you'd ever met him (in that form) before or not. But that isn't how the story handles things. The sequence of events must be that you meet G'raha, then see him shut in the tower, then get him out again. You can put it off but you will not see those events happen out of sequence. -
08-22-2020, 03:46 AMClover_Blake
I believe that you have plenty of freedom to do crazy things, so long as you RP privately with a group where everyone accepts it.
Otherwise, if anyone plans to engage in public RP with strangers, then I'd advise to not break the lore and not claim to be the WoL, for no one is obliged to accept your personal canon in their stories.
Private RP = Anything works so long as everyone involved agrees.
Public RP = You need to adhere to the lore as a basic rule for it to work with everyone. -
08-22-2020, 03:55 AMIscah
Meanwhile, the question of "what is canon for roleplay" is very different to asking what the canon version of the WoL's adventures are. If your character isn't the WoL then should any of that have happened to you? Or are you someone else on the edges on the story, in which case the canon you need to know is (a) events that affect you-the-non-WoL, and (b) world lore about how things work and what people can do.
It's canon that the WoL can teleport across the rift because they were personally pulled there by the Exarch and have now established aetheryte attunements that allow them to travel back and forth at will.
It's technically canon that the same could be repeated for someone else, assuming they could handle the vast travel distances (the WoL is unusually strong in this aspect) but you'd need a very good excuse to get there. The Exarch's summoning method is underpinned by exceptional circumstances and he's unlikely to be pulling random adventurers across.
If you can come up with a way to get your character there, great. But it's not something that anybody can just do.
Ultimately yes, you can make up whatever you like that appeals - but the point of sticking to canon rules about how the world works is to keep everyone on the same page so you can build your ideas from the same basic concepts. Some people will care about that more than others. -
08-22-2020, 03:56 AMRodaSo anything the game presents as possible is up for grabs in rp, pretty much. (hell, even stuff that isn't is up for grabs with a bit of social finesse)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinfeild
But, there's a bit of a catch. What is acceptable to RP is up to the players ('cause it's their imaginations and the devs don't have an official rp server that they moderate for rp), and not the devs.
Balmung -currently- has a kind of reverse arms race when it comes to how fantastical people make their characters in public rp. The Echo/blessing is extremely rare instead of adventurers being prone to having it awaken. There is ONE warrior of light instead of every 1.0 player / decent heroic adventurer being called a warrior of light. And even if an event IS canon, if a common adventurer from whatever region you're rping in wouldn't know about an event, it isn't relavent to apply to RP. Which causes plotline scales to be quite small when compaired to the fantastical powerscales of the msq. No one wants to be the mary sue of the server with the way-too-fantastical character that overshadows someone's mercenary/merchant/hunter/dancer/adventurer/refugee personal plot. A kind of canadian standoff of "no no no, you take the spotlight now, I'll stand back and wait for my turn" while everyone rps what is essentially a side npc that just kinda exists around the msq, just not in its center.
Now, don't be discouraged if you want to delve farther into where the MSQ explores, as that's my general observation of how people set up their characters for random/pickup rp and there are of course different philosophies on how powerscales should be in rp wthin different rp cliques, and an established group would eventually venture into newer and more recent territory. As long as you clearly communicate what kind of stories you're looking for, then you shouldn't have too much of a problem finding those stories. And who knows, with how 5.3 is exploring its themes, maybe we'll see a shift of what is considered "mundane" in a fantasy setting.