What would you think of the original CLASSES being expanded into full JOBS?

It's a pretty trivial complaint, but I definitely find it unusual that the core "classes" even still exist. After all, what does a Gladiator have to do with a Paladin, other than using a sword-and-shield?

Well, it's something I've put a lot of thought into. And frankly, I've wondered if ***PERHAPS*** it would be worth considering changing these classes (some or all) into full-fledged Jobs?

Let me use the Gladiator as an example:

THEMATICALLY speaking, there is zero correlation between a Gladiator and a Paladin. Paladins are essentially Holy Knights, whereas when I think of a "Gladiator", honestly I think of Raubaun, or even just Roman gladiators in general.

What if -- again, WHAT IF -- the Gladiator was instead treated as a completely different job?

Instead of being glued to a sword-and-board, you would instead have three difference "stances": Sword Stance, Shield Stance, and Open Stance.

Using the magic of this-is-a-video-game, each of these stances would change what you are holding in your off-hand.

In Sword stance, you literally create a copy of your sword, dual-wielding just like our boy Raubaun used to. This would understandably increase your damage-dealing potential. Some attacks might be "channeled", meaning you remain rooted in-place while delivering an onslaught of attacks.

In Shield stance, you bust out that hunk of metal on your back. But instead of being a "tanking stance", it would still be focused on dealing damage. The difference being, it would exchange some of those channeled frenzy-attacks for more stuns and defensive properties. Because you're not a tank, you're going to be fairly squishy, but Shield stance helps offset that. Maybe visually, a lot of your attacks see you bashing enemies with your shield, just to emphasize the brute force of your character.

Finally in "Open stance", you sheathe both your shield and your second sword, in favor of simply holding the one sword in your main-hand, and nothing in your off-hand. This stance would favor highly increased mobility, but also more "dirty tricks". Throwing sand in your enemies' eyes to blind or lower their accuracy, being able to "tumble" large distances to avoid attacks, maybe even being able to throw a bola to trip or slow your enemies.

Now obviously, none of this is NECESSARY for the game!

However, the reason I honestly kind of like the idea is that... well, so much of FFXIV is about nostalgia for past games in the franchise, right? And I love that stuff. But to me, my FAVORITE things in FFXIV are the things unique to itself! The Xaela, for example, are SO interesting to me, and yet the only appear in FFXIV! And I've heard that, as much as 1.0 was clearly a mess and an unsuccessful game, I've heard many people say that actually, the "classes" it had were actually pretty unique and interesting, and also very different from the "traditional Final Fantasy Jobs" they later became.

What if some of those Classes were actually fully affirmed as their own unique Jobs?

Now truthfully, I don't know enough about the other Classes and their individual Lore to make suggestions. The Lancer, for example, just SEEMS like it would be super boring. The Pugilist, on the other hand, I could totally see becoming a "Tanking job", being more of a rowdy brawler than a skilled martial artist.

But at least in the case of the Gladiator, I actually think there's enough there to constitute an entirely separate Job from the Paladin. And if so, then perhaps the Paladin would be completely unlinked from the Gladiator at all, simply unlocking it at lvl 30 (in the manner newer jobs are unlockable at higher levels without needing "core classes" leveled), making the Paladin even more of the "Holy Knight" archetype (if they so wanted to; they already fill that niche pretty much perfectly as-is).

I dunno. Just something I've been thinking a lot about, and thought it would be interesting seeing you guys' thoughts. Do you think there's merit to the idea? Some "classes" that are more interesting or more compelling than others? Maybe you even have your own ideas how you could distinguish them from the existing "jobs"?

Man, they can do whatever they want to smn if that means I get to keep my carbuncle buddy as an arcanist.
(Which is to say, have arcanist work like smn is now with maybe a beast carbuncle mode where your carbuncle gets hypercharged and RIPPED, and those who want smn to be a slow casting one big hit and then nothing for a while can have fun with the classic FF SMN -the second job smn characters had to actually make those characters interesting)

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Originally Posted by Roda

Man, they can do whatever they want to smn if that means I get to keep my carbuncle buddy as an arcanist.
(Which is to say, have arcanist work like smn is now with maybe a beast carbuncle mode where your carbuncle gets hypercharged and RIPPED, and those who want smn to be a slow casting one big hit and then nothing for a while can have fun with the classic FF SMN -the second job smn characters had to actually make those characters interesting)

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Interesting! I'll admit, I kind of feel like the Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar thing is like the one instance that would potentially mess up this whole idea, lol. But I've never played ANY of them, so I can't really speak to how those would work, or how you might make them feel distinctive? And the other, like I mentioned, is the Lancer, who feels like it would be really hard to make feel unique. Unless you allowed them to wield a shield, making them a tank?

Core classes still exist because Class/Job Quests. A lot of stuff would need to be rewriten to make a change like this make sense. With the story as it is right now, how exactly a total nobody who just arrived to Eorzea is already a Sultansworn Paladin? And the same question can be asked for most, if not all, starting Jobs

I don't think this would really be worth the hassle compared to just making new jobs.

SE have been trying to distance SMN and SCH adn diverge them more over the expansions I doubt they want to slap on a bunch of similar scenarios to these.

And some of the base classes I feel don't really have enough to go on anyway. THM and CNJ are basically black mage and white mage lite anyway. Pugilist is very similar to monk as is, just with less of a focus on form and more of a MMA feel it seems from the way the SB monk quests compare them having Pugilists being better able to fight those trained specifically to counter monks. Lancer and archer I don't even remember having much theming or interesting lore outside of 'we use lances/bows.'

The only one I'd personally probably be interested in seeing devloped would be rogues, but that's mostly just because I find the Rogues as a group more interesting than Oboro and his ninja buddies.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I don't think this would really be worth the hassle compared to just making new jobs.

SE have been trying to distance SMN and SCH adn diverge them more over the expansions I doubt they want to slap on a bunch of similar scenarios to these.

And some of the base classes I feel don't really have enough to go on anyway. THM and CNJ are basically black mage and white mage lite anyway. Pugilist is very similar to monk as is, just with less of a focus on form and more of a MMA feel it seems from the way the SB monk quests compare them having Pugilists being better able to fight those trained specifically to counter monks. Lancer and archer I don't even remember having much theming or interesting lore outside of 'we use lances/bows.'

The only one I'd personally probably be interested in seeing devloped would be rogues, but that's mostly just because I find the Rogues as a group more interesting than Oboro and his ninja buddies.

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Fair enough! I personally really dug the idea of a proper "Gladiator" (as probably evidenced in how much detail I had on how I might change them), but I can totally see where some things might get a little wonky.

As far as the story stuff... honestly not sure there. Maybe the story paths would just diverge at a certain point (ie. going back to the Bloodsands after unlocking Paladin has a guy wondering where you've been, and saying an old-school Gladiator arrived looking to properly train you). Just a thought!

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Originally Posted by Terin

Fair enough! I personally really dug the idea of a proper "Gladiator" (as probably evidenced in how much detail I had on how I might change them), but I can totally see where some things might get a little wonky.

As far as the story stuff... honestly not sure there. Maybe the story paths would just diverge at a certain point (ie. going back to the Bloodsands after unlocking Paladin has a guy wondering where you've been, and saying an old-school Gladiator arrived looking to properly train you). Just a thought!

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My guy, you are not alone in your thinking and its not just gladiator, for me anyways. Idc if its wishful thinking; I wish archer either stayed archer with none of the brd stuff. Maybe become Ranger/Sniper later and use crossbows with using poaching traps or deal extra dmg depending on how far you're shooting your target.

Going back to gladiator, I envision it as this colloseum style gladiator, with skills like throwing nets, javelin spike, using chains, tossing dirt (blinding your opponent). You know, like a really gritty fighter, combating his/her opponent tooth and nail.

Oh well, we can always dream...

Personally, I think they should get rid of classes altogether. When ARR first launched, sure I saw a use to it considering various jobs needed a certain cross class ability or level to unlock the job. But now, in the post-Shadowbringers era, I think it's just redundant.

Honestly IMO I still kind of feel like the original base classes should have all had forking paths like ACH did into SMN and SCH where they had a choice between 2 roles. But thanks to the headaches caused by the bookworms that will probably never happen. :P

While it's never going to happen, especially given how the devs have repeatedly brought up the back end issues caused by Summoner and Scholar using the same base, it's definitely something I would like to see. For me, I'd much rather have a pure Archer class rather than a pseudo support Bard.

Not going to happen. The devs even said making SCH/CMN share was a mistake. The only thing you'll get from them as fas as those base jobs will be them taking them out the game completely.

There are a few that could potentially branch into different jobs, only a few at most, and when they could just make brand new jobs not beholden to base classes it just feels unnecessary to me.

I doubt they'll ever remove the classes that are there though. Not only do they have their own guilds and stories that would be awkward to remove, but many of the JOB questlines bring back npcs from the class quests. The paladin SB and SHB quests, the monk SB quests, some of the Ninja quests etc.

The real question is who keeps digging up these old post? O.o

Honestly Yoshi P has stated that he doesn’t even like the starter classes and felt trapped by them in the beginning. It’s why nothing new requires them. I wouldn’t be surprised if they got purged in this continuous ARR purging.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

Honestly Yoshi P has stated that he doesn’t even like the starter classes and felt trapped by them in the beginning. It’s why nothing new requires them. I wouldn’t be surprised if they got purged in this continuous ARR purging.

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I doubt it, the class stories have their own lore and plots, and often times these creep back into the job stories too. Again, the last couple paladin stories have been more gladiator than paladin, and several other job stories have npcs from the class quests pop in too. I doubt they're going to want to remove them and have to rework the job stories to that degree to cover levels 1-30 and also having to adjust higher level job stories that reference the old class ones. Just seems like too much work for too little benefit.

I don't want to see the shared roots go away, but I would like to see there be a more thematic split thereafter. A bow makes sense as a weapon for a Bard, but after their split, any further bow tech should be optional and all actual Bard growth should be, well, more support- or musically-oriented. Or alternatively, as a Bard or Ranger, each stemming from Archer, I could choose how much of my playflow I want to owe directly to Archery, rather than to trapping, tracking, or target-marking, or songs, harmonies, and other thematically cohesive but miscellaneous forms of support.

Ideally, I'd eventually like to see a traits selection system, whereby as a Machinist, for instance, I could choose how deeply I want to go into Gunner techniques, Machinist technicraft, Arcanist aetheromancy, Archer focus techniques, Monk gun-fu, etc., in order to perform well in my preferred playflow and aesthetic style. Of course, that'd require that fights not be limited almost wholly to matters of long-term DPS and burst-multiplicity, with most utility a barely noticeable footnote, else our choices would all be made for us rather than providing a means of enjoyably diversifying PuG fights or complementing each others' builds in statics.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I doubt it, the class stories have their own lore and plots, and often times these creep back into the job stories too. Again, the last couple paladin stories have been more gladiator than paladin, and several other job stories have npcs from the class quests pop in too. I doubt they're going to want to remove them and have to rework the job stories to that degree to cover levels 1-30 and also having to adjust higher level job stories that reference the old class ones. Just seems like too much work for too little benefit.

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We'd probably see them eliminate classes on the backend, while the player story will still have you progress through the class storylines and graduate to a job automatically. So like class lables and icons would really only be a cosmetic switch in the system instead of assigning a whole new class id to your character. At least it's probably the cheapest/easiest way to "get rid of classes" in a way that won't call for massive retcons.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

While it's never going to happen, especially given how the devs have repeatedly brought up the back end issues caused by Summoner and Scholar using the same base, it's definitely something I would like to see. For me, I'd much rather have a pure Archer class rather than a pseudo support Bard.

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TBH I think it had less to do with actual back end technical issues and more to do with people complaining on the forum when an SCH joined their duty in DF that had severely outdated gear and was being played by someone that didn't know what their skills did and decided to queue healer because they didnt want to wait for the DPS queue on their SMN main.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

There are a few that could potentially branch into different jobs, only a few at most, and when they could just make brand new jobs not beholden to base classes it just feels unnecessary to me.

I doubt they'll ever remove the classes that are there though. Not only do they have their own guilds and stories that would be awkward to remove, but many of the JOB questlines bring back npcs from the class quests. The paladin SB and SHB quests, the monk SB quests, some of the Ninja quests etc.

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Random thoughts...

Lancer -> Templar (tank)
Thaumaturge -> Sage (Healer)
Conjurer -> Geomancer (DPS) They could have done this before introducing Geomancer as what they did on the AST quests later.
Gladiator -> Fighter (DPS) They could have even added swordchucks if they wanted.
Marauder -> Berserker (DPS)
Archer -> Made BRD a healer role adding more support skills and healing abilities. Make Ranger a DPS branch.
Pugilist -> Made the DPS role path Blackbelt. Designed MNK as a healer type
Rogue -> Duelist (Tank)

So I mean it was easily doable back when they did ARR. Most of those could be done now if they really wanted to. The problem areas are the 2 jobs using titles that would have been better suited to the other role proposed and the 1 that had it's title used for story fluff later for a different job. Doing it now would generate mixed reactions however. You'll have people that like having more options. Then you'll have others that complain about it for various reasons such as more people potentially being able to queue a role at higher levels they hardly ever play.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Random thoughts...

Lancer -> Templar (tank)
Thaumaturge -> Sage (Healer)
Conjurer -> Geomancer (DPS) They could have done this before introducing Geomancer as what they did on the AST quests later.
Gladiator -> Fighter (DPS) They could have even added swordchucks if they wanted.
Marauder -> Berserker (DPS)
Archer -> Made BRD a healer role adding more support skills and healing abilities. Make Ranger a DPS branch.
Pugilist -> Made the DPS role path Blackbelt. Designed MNK as a healer type
Rogue -> Duelist (Tank)

So I mean it was easily doable back when they did ARR. Most of those could be done now if they really wanted to. The problem areas are the 2 jobs using titles that would have been better suited to the other role proposed and the 1 that had it's title used for story fluff later for a different job. Doing it now would generate mixed reactions however. You'll have people that like having more options. Then you'll have others that complain about it for various reasons such as more people potentially being able to queue a role at higher levels they hardly ever play.

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How dare you sir.
Rogue would have obviously have thief as a side class

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

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Honestly, Thaumaturge still sounds like a healer, as it was in 1.x, in itself. I mean it's literally a 'miracle worker/maker'.

Warrior, meanwhile, already fills the Berserker niche, and even just deemphasizing its duality (it's two kinds of battlelusting craziness) has been hugely controversial.

How about something Norse, but with a more unique take than Viking alone? Ulfhedinn (half man, half jötunn -- "wolf-runners" / "wolf-riders") would have plenty of unique potential despite being frequently assigned axes in typical iconography (short of any potential overlap with true Lancers, at least)?

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Pugilist -> Made the DPS role path Blackbelt. Designed MNK as a healer type

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And therein we lose so much of the unique opportunities of such a system. Why not allow MNK to flex its outputs towards multiple purposes, as per lore and its original hyper-versatility in XIV? Rather than just trying to try to cut an aesthetic in two, limiting a would-be job into either just Healer or just Damage-Dealer, just find another appealing and distinct job that would otherwise be disallowed because of its using hand-to-hand combat -- say... Morpher, or Wildling.

Hmm...
We got Classes —> Jobs
Who knows ? In the future we might get
Jobs —> Third tier job with new form of job crystal

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I don't want to see the shared roots go away, but I would like to see there be a more thematic split thereafter. A bow makes sense as a weapon for a Bard, but after their split, any further bow tech should be optional and all actual Bard growth should be, well, more support- or musically-oriented.

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Wouldn't it be easier to just make new Jobs themed the way you want them without tying them to existing classes? We're getting to a point where we have most fantasy weapon types present in current jobs, So unless they plan on cooking up funky new weapons for every new Job that comes along we'll run into Jobs that use the same weapon but in different ways.

As long as the way the weapon is held when drawn and used is unique enough, WHM/BLM being a good example, then sharing a weapon type wouldn't matter too much.

Hell, It'd probably help a bit in levelling gear by having a theoretical new Bow Job use Bard bows while levelling, only having a split into unique personalised weapons at the expansion's level cap. It'd save a bunch of time and effort making clones of said weapons for the new Job.
SCH/SMN and WHM/BLM could have gone that way, were it not for the jobs requiring opposite stats.
IIRC, a bunch of early level Shields were used by CNJ and THM.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Wouldn't it be easier to just make new Jobs themed the way you want them without tying them to existing classes?

<snip>

Hell, It'd probably help a bit in levelling gear by having a theoretical new Bow Job use Bard bows while levelling

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...That is the same overlap you get from tying them to existing classes, save that you could also get, say, Ranger to level 50 by having gotten Archer to level 50 or 60, with Bard's and Ranger's experience separate thereafter as they each go off into doing entirely their own thing.

It's basically the same as allowing one to move towards their target job immediately, upon starting the game, as per most class-job progressions, but without having to level a bow-based job while it's still in its infancy (and therefore not yet particularly able to make itself distinct) twice.

That's not to say using shared classes is or is not an inherently good idea; it's just the concessions you're allowing for there are merely one or two steps fewer than what others have asked for in regards to expanded initial classes or the like.

Well, to be clear my goal isn't to "introduce new, eerily-similar jobs". Rather, to SEPARATE the existing Classes and Jobs, either turning the former into something more unique (like the Gladiator revamp I proposed), or just nixing them entirely.

The reason I proposed this idea, is because I remember hearing that when 1.0 first launched, the original Classes were actually quite different from what they are now. In the current game, "Classes" are literally just "Jobs that haven't acquired a Crystal yet". Which feels messy and unnecessary.

As I understood it, the Conjurer in 1.0 was way more deeply-tied to Gridania and utilizing "nature-magic". That seems quite distinct, and not only distinct from the White Mage, but also something unique to FFXIV!

The Gladiator was, again, more of a Spartan-style warrior than a "Paladin". And Archer, obviously, was purely an archer (versus Bard, which seems to have more utility/support magic).

To me, I honestly feel like they should either convert the core Classes into their own distinct Jobs, or just nix them entirely.

Of course, I probably wouldn't change our existing JOBS at all. Not unless anyone feels there are compelling reasons to (truthfully, I don't play a Bard, but I would THINK a harp would be more fitting for them, with Archers taking on the existing Bow weapons). Since Black Mage and White Mage already get 1hand and 2hand choices, I would presumably split those accordingly with the Classes.

Gladiator and Pugilist are difficult, as it would be tricky separate their "Arms" from the Jobs they normally become. Only thing I can think, is that maybe you just label them "Gladiator weapon" and "Pugilist weapon", even if they're still actually quite similar. That, or just have them shared between jobs, although that sets kind of a dangerous precedent.

Again, just kind of my thinking.

I've only leveled NIN, and the class - job transition made no sense to me. I'd just prefer to start out at the job designation, and have new abilities added at the same overall rate. I don't even remember what my starting class was or it's abilities.

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It's a pretty trivial complaint, but I definitely find it unusual that the core "classes" even still exist. After all, what does a Gladiator have to do with a Paladin, other than using a sword-and-shield?

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It's just a nod to the very first Final Fantasy and its "class change" system. You likewise didn't HAVE to do it, but there was no denying that the post-change classes were overall stronger.

By the same token, back in FF1, what did a Fighter have to do with a Knight?

I'm not convinced that it would ever happen, though I'd love to see the original classes expanded into full jobs. I dislike the aesthetics and theme of bard, but love the aesthetics and theme of an archer. Other MMO's had core 'RPG' classes in the game right from the very start. Yet it took a while for FFXIV to have a sword wielding DPS job.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It's just a nod to the very first Final Fantasy and its "class change" system. You likewise didn't HAVE to do it, but there was no denying that the post-change classes were overall stronger.

By the same token, back in FF1, what did a Fighter have to do with a Knight?

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if that was the case it would of been better to stay as a pugilist as everyone knows in FF1 blackbelt was more powerful than its upgraded counterpart (one punch man!)

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if that was the case it would of been better to stay as a pugilist as everyone knows in FF1 blackbelt was more powerful than its upgraded counterpart (one punch man!)

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I wouldn't say BB was more powerful; the Master did get higher stats oriented toward its offense, but the Master's magic defense growth at level up was significantly less than the Black Belt's and this is the reason why people often think of the Master as a weaker class. But this was due to a programming oversight (many, MANY of which existed in the original version of FF1) and could be circumvented by either waiting until high/max level to class change or by just giving the Master a Ribbon to make up for the lost magic defense. From what I can tell, later releases of FF1 corrected this oversight.

It also would pretty much never be ideal to hold your entire party back from class change just because there was a BB in it anyway (because in FF1 class change affects the entire party at once; you cannot pick and choose individual members to receive it) unless you were specifically waiting until max level to min/max your party.

Well, I still personally dig the idea. I kind of feel like FFXIV needs to "trim the fat", so to speak, and get rid of any unnecessary stuff, which would probably include the "Class" system, as it currently exists.

But again, why not return some of the base Classes closer to their 1.0 counterparts, which seemed a little more unique, and in doing so make them sort of "alternate specs" for them?

Like I said, I feel like the Gladiator could totally be fleshed-out as its own separate Job, with minimal overlap with the Paladin, or maybe even COMPLETELY separate. Maybe downgrade it to using "medium armor" shared with Dragoons or something (since my vision for the Gladiator is much more mobile and damage-oriented), making Paladin even more distinct?

Again, just a thought! I know most are more eager to get entirely new, classic FF jobs, but I also think FFXIV introduced some interested Classes of its own, and it's kind of a shame to see those kind of trashed in favor of nostalgia. Give them some love and make them unique in their own right! They could become just as "iconic" as anything else in the series!

Simply removing classes would be awkward for story reasons. Many of the job stories have npcs from the preceding class stories showing up etc. Hell the SB and SHB paladin stories are more gladiator sequels than paladin stories.

This would make it tricky to actually completely remove, or completely separate, classes form jobs. And also some classes have less of an identity to stand on anyway. Archer just...shoots stuff with a bow and doesn't really have much of an identity. Nor does lancer.

While I agree the class/job system as it is now is a little clunky I don't see an elegant solution and simply removing is probably more trouble than it's worth.

And IMO I'd rather they just continue to add new jobs with no attachment to classes rather than try and revamp the old classes into new jobs. And going back to 1.0 for inspiration would likely just make things confusing since the vast majority of players are not 1.0 vets that would personally appreciate this sort of move.