Something in 5.3 MSQ felt off to me (SPOILERS)

That moment where you've kindda grown out of an old opinion but there's no "Delete thread" option in this forum...

https://cdn.betterttv.net/emote/56e9...e5287e/1x.webp

There are some theories that the WoL and Arbert are part of the same sundered soul, so in a way, he is 'us' so it kinda works for me.

I felt that in the scene with Seto we pulled his essence from within, so it didn't feel for me so intrusive. I understand you may dislike not having the option to not summon him tho

EDIT: Thanks guys! It's not a theory, it's fact. Bad wording on my part, I didn't mean to present as fact something I couldn't elaborate at the moment.

I did find it a little odd as I took that scene of Ardbert walking with his friends at the end of 5.0 to symbolize that he had finally found his peace and departed from the world completely.

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Originally Posted by Rofel

There are some theories that the WoL and Arbert are part of the same sundered soul, so in a way, he is 'us' so it kinda works for me.

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It's not a theory - it's outright stated. It's how and why we merged.

On voices, it's a curious thing but I've never enjoyed playing this with the voices switched on. I've tried a few times but it always feels a bit off and not paced quite right, plus I think it highlights the contrast of our character never making a noise even if visibly speaking. When everyone is just words on the screen and imagined voices, she talks as loudly as everyone else. I'm quite sure she and Ardbert spoke together in that scene! It was strange afterwards to find out that only Ardbert spoke - of course there's no choice but to do it that way, but it doesn't feel like that was the intent.

Honestly I was a bit surprised as well..seeing how Minfilia died when she fully joined with Ryne I dont understand how Ardbert is still here.

Same, I was surprised at first, but considering the WoL asked Seto to close his eyes I thought it more as a view of Seto's mind when he realized WoL and Ardbert are one and the same, so while Seto "saw" Ardbert in our soul, I think it was a "this all happened in a thought bubble" moment.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Honestly I was a bit surprised as well..seeing how Minfilia died when she fully joined with Ryne I dont understand how Ardbert is still here.

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Maybe Minfilia's not actually dead. I mean, Ryne doesn't have the Echo—she wasn't able to hear Hydaelyn's voice during the starshower scene in 5.2. And Minfilia did have the Echo, so it stands to reason that despite the whole "Minfilia reincarnation" thing, Ryne and Minfilia's souls aren't fragments of the same original soul. And if that's the case, it leaves me wondering just how merged their souls really are.

But yeah, Ardbert just spontaneously manifesting himself through our body. It was heartwarming, to be sure, but definitely a little confusing.

The WoL is explicitly one of the Sundered, and as such that makes Ardbert technically part of Azem too.

That doesn't exclude the two from still being their "own people". That's pretty much the whole basis of the conflict of 5.0; Emet thinks the Sundered trying to claim they are still their own people are nothing but pathetic shadows of their actual "complete" selves that shouldn't even count as people, and we're trying to show him otherwise.

As for the scene of Ardbert walking away with his former comrades, I took that as more symbolic than anything else, like he had finally found his peace after remaining in post-Flood limbo for a century.

I think its because albert anf the WoL are 2 part of the same person and thats why our soul were able to fuse easyly despide not being the same person at first glance
We also have that weird connection to the ancient as we are as he put it his ''new old friend"

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Originally Posted by Rofel

There are some theories that the WoL and Arbert are part of the same sundered soul, so in a way, he is 'us' so it kinda works for me.

I felt that in the scene with Seto we pulled his essence from within, so it didn't feel for me so intrusive. I understand you may dislike not having the option to not summon him tho

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I mean it's not so much a theory as a fact. Ardbert and the Warrior of Light came from the same soul. That's why that guy in Aumarot said our souls looked the same and why Ardbert was able to fuse with the WoL at the end of 5.0.

I viewed it as seto simply reading a message from the soul of adrbert, nothing more.

He wasn't really speaking through your mouth.

Thanks everyone for your kind responses! I'm very glad to see that I'm not the only one who thought the situation was odd.

Personally, while I understand the concept of the sundered soul, the idea of two people sharing a soul after becoming their own person just feels wrong and intrusive to me. I just won't accept it for my WoL. We may be shards of a sundered original soul, but we are now ourselves, and again: I don't even think Ardbert would want such an existence.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

That doesn't exclude the two from still being their "own people". That's pretty much the whole basis of the conflict of 5.0; Emet thinks the Sundered trying to claim they are still their own people are nothing but pathetic shadows of their actual "complete" selves that shouldn't even count as people, and we're trying to show him otherwise.

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I also very much agree with this! :)

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Maybe Minfilia's not actually dead

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There was a very sad yet heartwarming story bit with F'lhaminn at some point within ShB that pretty much bids farewell to our original Minfilia, which I believe did a great job concluding her arc.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On voices, it's a curious thing but I've never enjoyed playing this with the voices switched on. I've tried a few times but it always feels a bit off

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That's very interesting! I've always played with voices, so turning them off must be an entirely different experience, specially for something like this topic! I don't think I would have ever imagined Ardbert speaking through my mouth if I didn't openly heard it.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

So while Seto "saw" Ardbert in our soul, I think it was a "this all happened in a thought bubble" moment.

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I like this interpretation! I can appreciate the Amaro being able to sense and see some particular colors and shapes in someone's soul, which I think works better abstractly and in a way is much more powerful and symbolic than Ardbert literally being there.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I viewed it as seto simply reading a message from the soul of adrbert, nothing more. He wasn't really speaking through your mouth.

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I like this interpretation too! I believe it gives better closure to both their stories now that we've concluded the ShB story.

Once again, thanks everyone for reading and taking the time to compose a reply! Safe travels across the realm!

-Viv

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

There was a very sad yet heartwarming story bit with F'lhaminn at some point within ShB that pretty much bids farewell to our original Minfilia, which I believe did a great job concluding her arc.

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Oh, I know. And I'm in full agreement on that. But it wouldn't be the first time Minfilia died, with characters reacting to her death and trying their best to move on, only for her to miraculously be brought back to life. That it's accompanied by a funeral this time around makes it seem permanent, but there have been enough odd moments since the Crossroads quest that I feel like the writers are trying to leave her fate partly open-ended.

That said, it'd be pretty weird, being able to do a sidequest where you attend her funeral in a post-revival situation.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Oh, I know. And I'm in full agreement on that. But it wouldn't be the first time Minfilia died, with characters reacting to her death and trying their best to move on, only for her to miraculously be brought back to life. That it's accompanied by a funeral this time around makes it seem permanent, but there have been enough odd moments since the Crossroads quest that I feel like the writers are trying to leave her fate partly open-ended.

That said, it'd be pretty weird, being able to do a sidequest where you attend her funeral in a post-revival situation.

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Yeah, for sure! I sometimes feel the writers have wrote themselves into corners throughout XIV's story, so they make up all these new solutions that sometimes work better than others. With sooo many characters "returning" through "strange means" throughout that story, I guess it wouldn't surprise me, but it'd still feel super weird. Really wanted to give F'lhaminn a hug during that quest at the end :(

I found it a very beautiful scene, it made me teary. And seeing that my WoL is also a male Midlander, it's not odd for me to imagine that Ardbert is a part of him, just like it wasn't odd to hear Ardbert's voice coming from his mouth in that other scene.

I just don't know everything this entails. Is Ardbert alive? Does he have thoughts of his own? Is he aware of everything happening in the WoL's everyday? How does this work exactly?

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Originally Posted by Clover_Blake

Is Ardbert alive? Does he have thoughts of his own? Is he aware of everything happening in the WoL's everyday? How does this work exactly?

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Well, if you ask me personally, the answer to all those questions is a resounding no. Beside such ideas feeling really invasive for the WoL's character/privacy, to me it just feels like it goes against Ardbert's character and the message itself of the story in Shadowbringers about each person's individual and irreplaceable value.

That said, I still appreciate you took the time to read my topic and reply with your honest thoughts! I have friends who felt the way you did and I just like seeing how each player treats story bits for their WoLs. I've explained in detail how I feel in my previous posts. If anything, I believe the game speaking to us in different ways is a testament to how much we care :)

Thanks again for your post! <3

-Viv

It is my (technically) (head)canon that ever since the end of 5.0 that all our WoL's, even the smallest, girliest lalafel - talks with Ardbert's voice and no one can convince me otherwise and all the npcs just accept that.
No one can change my mind. I love it.

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Originally Posted by Kirajah

It is my (technically) (head)canon that ever since the end of 5.0 that all our WoL's, even the smallest, girliest lalafel - talks with Ardbert's voice and no one can convince me otherwise and all the npcs just accept that.
No one can change my mind. I love it.

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But then what would we have sounded like before the end 5.0?

I don't view it as a soul merge. But simply soul wandering like a ghost/angel?

The question then: If Ardbert still somehow exist, why is our head not full of the souls of all the other people that got rejoined with us? (We would have been alive at the 7th calamity) Why would he be special?

The blessing of light was always iffy, and it should've stopped at that. But now we're tied to Ardbert and that one super special ascian, too... More and more, I feel like my character isn't really my own and now I'm starting to feel guilty over being a lalafell too. The scenes with Ardbert were supposed to be touching but I didn't feel anything, I don't identify with him at all... same thing with that ascian whose name I still can't remember.

This is why I never complain about the scions, I'd rather if my character is left to be my own while the scions move the plot forward.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

The question then: If Ardbert still somehow exist, why is our head not full of the souls of all the other people that got rejoined with us? (We would have been alive at the 7th calamity) Why would he be special?

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Maybe because he's also a WoL and he joined willingly with us instead of through a calamity. The previous people may not be WoL and/or they joined because of calamity.

I find it sad overall how we simpyl got so many vice options but only for emotes, while our character itself is silent, it feels off since you need characters like Arcbert or even the Twins as main chars basically to let them speak for us this way. I really wish we had voice over honestly, i mean we are the main char anyway in the cutscenes, GW2 does this well, tho with corna latest updates not voiced at all but, it feels nicer then just having some grunts honestly. Even more so with other characters having to speak for or trough us in this case. It makes me feel even more of a puppet for Hydalin and others.

The role quests had put forward the idea that Ardbert's friends' final thoughts were encoded into their crystals and that our retrieving them allows it to "play" these messages. I think something similar was in play for the reunion in Il Mehg but Ardbert's unique circumstances, meant that the message wound't play out in the method depicted in the role quests.

I also thought the seen with Sento goes back to the MSQ of 5.0 "you remind of him, but you are you" he said or so such. so at the end when he see Ardbert, we are still there but in his eyes he see he partner in crime.

We are the 14th. We are technically an ascian. This is basically confirmed by Hythlodaeus when you talk to him after gathering the shards. He talks about the 14th. If you are a female character he says "She" - if male, he says "He". He talks about how the 14th went out and met people, gathered them and did great things. Basically what we do now. So the part where its stated where we and Arbert are part of the same sundered soul "The 14th" are basically true.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

As much as I wanted to love the scene with Seto in the epilogue, I just couldn't. Again: Was that literal Ardbert speaking through me? Cause that feels much more like something an Ascian would do, Inhabiting someone else's body to keep living on and I don't think Ardbert would ever want that. If it wasn't Ardbert then, did they just make the WoL play pretends in such a solemn moment? Or was it just Seto's perception and an echo of Ardbert remaining within the crystal? Maybe it feeling open to interpretation was intentional.
-Viv

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I thought this part was pretty obvious. Your character asked Seto to close his eyes and "feel" the presence of Ardbert in the crystal.
The fragment of Ardbert is talking to Seto. It could just be Seto's imagination or Ardbert's is really doing it, is up for interpretation. I would personally go for the latter, being a fantasy world and all.

I suppose they could have made Ardbert semi-transparent in the cs.

Thanks everyone who keeps reading and posting their replies!

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

The role quests had put forward the idea that Ardbert's friends' final thoughts were encoded into their crystals and that our retrieving them allows it to "play" these messages

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I love that you bring this up! Now that you mention it, the conversation was very akin to how the crystals of his friends did it, with an old important message "finally being delivered".

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

So the part where its stated where we and Arbert are part of the same sundered soul "The 14th" are basically true

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That's the truth of some previous existence we once may have had, but we're not Azem anymore, and nor was Ardbert. Heck, even if we're their "main remnant" defining things as their gender and apparently ways in which they behave, I believe Azem herself/himself was her/his own individual, not just old us. To me this individuality has always been very important, cause if not, then these characters and our WoL most of all get robbed of their own selves, which is an idea I'll never accept.

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Originally Posted by tymora

Your character asked Seto to close his eyes and "feel" the presence of Ardbert in the crystal.
The fragment of Ardbert is talking to Seto. It could just be Seto's imagination or Ardbert's is really doing it, is up for interpretation. I would personally go for the latter, being a fantasy world and all.

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I fully agree with you that the scene is open to interpretation, which I suppose it's intentional as to let each player craft their own story with somewhat-interchangeable pieces of the puzzle! The more I think about it (and after reading someone else's take on the thtread), I beleive Ardbert's was a sort of message kept within the crystal just like it was with his friends, though harder to see and aided by the Amaro's particular skill to see colors and shapes of the soul.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

I feel like my character isn't really my own and now I'm starting to feel guilty over being a lalafell too. The scenes with Ardbert were supposed to be touching but I didn't feel anything, I don't identify with him at all...

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Agree with this! I really like Ardbert, but his story is not my story. I won't ever accept an idea that forces him into my character. I'll accept that he was once a shard of Azem (14th Congregation Member) and that he had, through his crystal, a final message for Seto, but no more beyond that. And don't feel guilty for being a Lala! Be yourself :D

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Originally Posted by Latarma

I also thought the seen with Sento goes back to the MSQ of 5.0 "you remind of him, but you are you"

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It's been so long I forgot that all too important line! Thanks for reminding me of it! It does bring much needed context :)

I never thought my thread would get so many replies! So many WoLs and so many thoughts about the topic! Once again thanks to everyone who has taken the time to chat about this, it really means a lot to me! :D

Be well all! <3
-Viv

I... Have to agree.
I feel like him being rejoined with us should have perhaps had him dissolved and absorbed within us. I could see us becoming a bit more like Ardbert, although I'm not sure how the game would convey this but eh.

Im ok with our WoL to become Dragon ball Z abridged Piccolo fused with Nail, we is still there in mind, but we take the lead and keep collecting our soul frangments, you are still you and have dead friends go for a ride
https://i.imgflip.com/2uotox.jpg

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Originally Posted by jazo

we take the lead and keep collecting our soul frangments, you are still you and have dead friends go for a ride

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Carrying dead people speaking inside? Oh no, it may have worked amazingly in DBZA's context but I really don't want any of that for my WoL whatsoever D:
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I just spoke with Cyella (Can't believe I didn't think of doing that earlier) but her dialogue truly gives Ardbert's tale a greater sense of finality. I believe I'm gonna fully stick with the "Final message on his Crystal" idea for myself! :D

We are Azem, the 14th member of the Convocation. But we were sundered into completely different people on each of the shards. So consider it like one base soul with spokes. Our aether has always been unusual and dense so more than likely we have the rejoined people that traveled back along their spokes to the base from the previous Rejoinings. Now Ardbert is there. So he's not there in our spoke all the time, but when we need him to, he can come hang out in our spoke like when he spoke to Hades and when Seto needed to get closure. But the whole point is that we all were our own people.

We also don't know who the heart of Hydaelyn is. Maybe it was us. And maybe that "base" where they all reside is the heart of Hydaelyn directly connected to our soul.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

We also don't know who the heart of Hydaelyn is.

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I'm pretty sure it's Venat, not the Defector (Azem).

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

We are Azem, the 14th member of the Convocation. But we were sundered into completely different people on each of the shards. So consider it like one base soul with spokes. Our aether has always been unusual and dense so more than likely we have the rejoined people that traveled back along their spokes to the base from the previous Rejoinings. Now Ardbert is there. So he's not there in our spoke all the time, but when we need him to, he can come hang out in our spoke like when he spoke to Hades and when Seto needed to get closure. But the whole point is that we all were our own people.

We also don't know who the heart of Hydaelyn is. Maybe it was us. And maybe that "base" where they all reside is the heart of Hydaelyn directly connected to our soul.

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The heart of Hydaelyn was Venat, not the PC WoL. The ones who wanted to summon Hydaelyn tried to get in touch with us (the 14th defector) but we weren't answering the phone... all of this was said after we ran through Anyder... and shown via the crystal recordings in the cutscene.

Also, that cutscene with seto our two choices were to either tell him toclose his eyes or we ask him if there seems to be something different with our soul, in which he closes his eyes and sees through his gift that Ardbert merged with us. (It has nothing to do with the soul crystal) I would like to think it as him being able to see it that way with us pulling up his feeling and memories and Seto mentally seeing and hearing Ardbert while we loved on him.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I'm pretty sure it's Venat, not the Defector (Azem).

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Is it? I'll have to go back and watch some cutscenes. I didn't think they come out and said it just that Venat had led that faction, so there was still a chance it ended up being us, maybe so Venat didn't gain that sort of power or something.

If Venat is anything like in XII, we don't want someone like that in a position of power. Though it would go along with how the Ascians think Hydaelyn is bad.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Is it? I'll have to go back and watch some cutscenes. I didn't think they come out and said it just that Venat had led that faction, so there was still a chance it ended up being us, maybe so Venat didn't gain that sort of power or something.

If Venat is anything like in XII, we don't want someone like that in a position of power. Though it would go along with how the Ascians think Hydaelyn is bad.

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in the cutscene the second crystal memory that had popped up had two Amaurotians one being Venat talking to a worried one about Venat becoming the heart of Hydaelyn. And thats also when they revealed that Elidibus also became the heart of zodiark when Venat said something along the lines of thia was probably how the convocation felt when Elidibus became the heart.

Venat, also in that cutscene assured the other that they would always recognize the form Venat took because they had the ability to take on whatever form they desired.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

in the cutscene the second crystal memory that had popped up had two Amaurotians one being Venat talking to a worried one about Venat becoming the heart of Hydaelyn. And thats also when they revealed that Elidibus also became the heart when Venat said something along the lines of thia was probably how the convocation felt when Elidibus became the heart.

Venat, also in that cutscene assured the other that they would always recognize the form Venat took because they had the ability to take on whatever form they desired.

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Hahah, well hopefully that's not just a throwaway mention and they fully manifest the sneaky bugger Venat is. Now I really am wondering if it was a low key clue.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

If Venat is anything like in XII, we don't want someone like that in a position of power.

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Are you sure about that? From what I recall, FFXII's Venat was an outright hero, at least compared to her fellow Occuria. That she was allied with the game's villains (Doctor Cid and Vayne Solidor) had more to do with them sharing the same ideals (reins of history in the hands of man, not gods) and having genuine kinship between them.

I see the thread has spawned quite an interesting conversation about the Heart of Hydelyn! I didn't remember the Venat cutscene, though I feel in relation that the whole Amaurot story became a bit murky in some points. Part of me feels they bit just a tad more than they could chew, though on the other hand it gives so much food for thought!

For myself, I fear I may start repeating myself if I keep answering too much, but I'm gonna keep a close eye on the thread as it goes. I'm so happy so many have come to chat! Love you all! <3

-Viv

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Are you sure about that? From what I recall, FFXII's Venat was an outright hero, at least compared to her fellow Occuria. That she was allied with the game's villains (Doctor Cid and Vayne Solidor) had more to do with them sharing the same ideals (reins of history in the hands of man, not gods) and having genuine kinship between them.

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Venat was manipulating things behind the scenes and trying to put fate back into the hands of Man but they always seemed to be only "good" when placed against the other Occuria who were decidedly not. Neutral if anything.