Is pvp dead? Can it come back?

I've played on and off and always had nothing but a bad time whenever I tried pvp in ffxiv.

Is there anything being done for this? Are there any plans to make pvp competitive or playable at all?

Lol didn't they just have a big PVP overhaul with, like, 5.0 where they almost doubled the number of abilities you have and added new maps?
It's been what I've needed to finally enjoy PVP, sorry to hear it hasn't made it better for you.

I wouldnt say they doubled your abilites they mostly added AOE abillties that are pretty bad unless your doing large scale PVP like Frontlines.

What i have learned from years of PVPing in this game PVP is an aftertought and the PVP devs dont seem to listen well to the playerbase.

They keep making dumb decisions for PVP specially around balancing jobs.

Why do we have to wait for a patch to fix something super broken like healing down stacking wich is a thing in the current PVP it's an easy thing to fix by a hotfix or something like that. :confused:

As a rule Jobs should be balanced around Feast wich is the arena based PVP in this game not around Frontlines.
They somewhat managed to balance jobs in the end of Stormblood the FRC event but then they made a complete overhaul once Shadowbringers hit and right now PVP is a complete mess thanks to it.

Also there is just not enough reason to PVP in the game you can get everthing you want from Wolf Marks in a week of doing PVP. :mad:
They keep adding special rewards for Feast to keep players doing it, even then it just dies out after a month or so when ppl find out whats meta and not and when Q ends up dying because none play.
You can do so much more other things outside PVP in the game so why even bother, you might have some players who only PVP and dont even do other things in the game but they are a super rare.

I was never a big fan of PvP and the last time I actually "enjoyed" playing it, was when we had access to our full skill list. The last time I played it, was to unlock the "Metal Gear Revengeance" gear. Haven't bothered with it since.

PvP has a reasonably-sized audience compared to other side activities, like for example serious crafters, or Gold Saucer monsters (like me), or people who do ultimates, etc. Frontline queues are <5 minutes in the evening which is pretty good. To call that dead is hyperbolic, and eager to over-simplify the situation either wilfully or out of ignorance.

I think there are fundamental improvements that can be made, and I think we need to change the offerings to have more smaller scale activities (since FL asking for 72 players to queue at once is a bit much and not sustainable past peak hours), but I wouldn't say it's dead. Just not really using a design that does a good job of serving its audience as well as it can. Maybe get an 8v8 mode going, do a daily challenge for RW or have it share one with FL and switch based on the number of people in queue. Have some rotating maps for Feast. Bring back map rotation for FL (which they are doing in a few weeks).

All in all the audience is there and the foundation is there. The limited resources the developer gives to PvP just needs to shift a bit.

They just need to revert back to 24 men

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Originally Posted by Lenko

I've played on and off and always had nothing but a bad time whenever I tried pvp in ffxiv.

Is there anything being done for this? Are there any plans to make pvp competitive or playable at all?

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Do you play any other comparable MMO type PVP in other games? Have you ever and did you like it?

Give people a difference in levels again and it would explode. People do PVP to compete, cowards like me who look for a fair fight and balance were not made for how it used to be. But give people a goal to work for with special gear and materia abilities, more people would care guaranteed.

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Originally Posted by Gula

Give people a difference in levels again and it would explode. People do PVP to compete, cowards like me who look for a fair fight and balance were not made for how it used to be. But give people a goal to work for with special gear and materia abilities, more people would care guaranteed.

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Nooooo thanks.
Side content that I need to perpetually keep up on in order to continue doing it or be at an unfun artificial disadvantage?
I'd legit quit PVP. I only play it because I'm free to enjoy it whenever I feel like it.
No other content in FF14 has upkeep and I'd like that to stay out of this game.

Yeah it took MMO PvP in general a long time to stop catering to toxic players, and getting rid of giving players gear that made them hard to beat at PVP just because they played a long time was one of the better long term changes in this and most other similar PVP games.

Playing for a long time should make you a better player anyway. If it doesn't then why should gear give you an advantage. When you combined the two things you'd have veteran players who were actually much better than other players AND they'd be wearing their super hero gear. It was ridiculous.

It lead to a sort of clubhouse effect where you'd end up with a small 'clubhouse' of regular pvp players while everyone else avoided it. They were the 'biggest fans of pvp' or so the argument went, so the game companies were 'just making the game for the people who liked it.' The MMO PVP genre probably still hasn't recovered from it even though they changed their ways years ago.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Nooooo thanks.
Side content that I need to perpetually keep up on in order to continue doing it or be at an unfun artificial disadvantage?
I'd legit quit PVP. I only play it because I'm free to enjoy it whenever I feel like it.
No other content in FF14 has upkeep and I'd like that to stay out of this game.

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I agree with pretty much ItMe and Esmoire's posts.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. They had intentions of making gear and materia matter at one point clearly, what was the only PvP stat called? Morale? Lol. They just never went through with it and I'm glad they didn't. The way it is now where anyone can get involved and improve at varying levels is important.

Having played WoW for over 20 seasons of ranked, I never had an issue with PvP gear there, I had an issue with Blizzard's execution of obtaining it because I was fine with getting better gear as I PvPed for ranked, but not back when there were 0 catchup mechanics and if you joined mid season in BG gear you got absolutely trashed and there was nothing you could do about it because the best gear was locked behind a time gate and a rating gate. Which, if you started early season, you'd beat the time gate, but anyone who queued later on into like S8 for example at 2-2.1K MMR into teams with T2 PvP Weapons/SMourne/HC DBW repeatedly knows how it was extremely difficult to win those games because sometimes being better wouldn't be enough, and 2200 teams back then were generally quite good unlike now. A lot of what attracted people like me and some of my friends to this game from WoW's ranked PvP scene (ye, we're calling this game a retirement home) is solo queue ranked pvp + no time commitment requirement whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

They just need to revert back to 24 men

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If you mean 8v8v8, hard pass, at least the way they did it before. I really hated the experience of having these huge maps that clumsily scaled objectives, if scaled at all. Shatter was a disaster especially.

When they had 8v8v8, I didn't want to try queueing too early or too late so I could avoid getting put into that experience, and I was certainly not alone (or people leaving when they zone in). Plus the nature of psychology is that it's easier in 8v8v8 for people to see which team is weaker or stronger, resulting in more people just ceasing to try more readily than 24v24v24. As such, while I can see why some people feel getting put into an 8v8v8 is better than nothing, I think overall it was more detrimental than it is helpful.

The general idea of shifting PvP players into an activity that requires fewer players is good, though. Maybe if they could make like micro versions of the maps with objective changes that work better so we aren't wailing away at chunks of ice forever. Figure if it's just using existing assets they could throw together something. Won't fix all of the problems but it would have been better than what they had.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Nooooo thanks.
Side content that I need to perpetually keep up on in order to continue doing it or be at an unfun artificial disadvantage?
I'd legit quit PVP. I only play it because I'm free to enjoy it whenever I feel like it.
No other content in FF14 has upkeep and I'd like that to stay out of this game.

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I'm explaining what it would take to bring it back. You would quit, but I guarantee hundreds of people would replace you. People like having goals. It's how humans work, and gaming companies know how to wrestle control of people's livelihoods for a profit. See twitch and how easy it will be to find someone with 1k+ views playing an esports title.

Within games that focus on PVP, it's often encouraged to be able to curb stomp someone, have that person waste hours of their youth slaving away to level up arbitrary numbers, and curbstomp the newbies. By the time the veterans quit, it's too late. Days upon weeks of their life they'll never get back.

But hey, I wouldn't change XIV's PVP back to how it used to be. I like having a fair chance.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

If you mean 8v8v8, hard pass, at least the way they did it before. I really hated the experience of having these huge maps that clumsily scaled objectives, if scaled at all. Shatter was a disaster especially.

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I think it could work with a smaller map. Scale it down, 8v8+open outpost. This way there's additional points to be had and an incentive to, you know, actually PVP instead of waiting in line like you're getting your ID picture taken.

I would do solo q for 24 man if it meant I could queue super late or early.
Leveling for pvp again would suck. Having to get gear to have the best stats would also suck. I am pretty sure FFXIV is not ever going to be seen as a PvP game. There already are hundreds of people playing. We are just spread out. Primal has at least two 72 man matches a night for a few hours. And I'm sure its the same on the other DCs.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

If you mean 8v8v8, hard pass, at least the way they did it before. I really hated the experience of having these huge maps that clumsily scaled objectives, if scaled at all. Shatter was a disaster especially.

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It may be the case for you if you are Zerg type of player that must have a healer to follow you around. Not for me, that type of a PvP just plain straight mind numbing clown feasr. (again, this is my perspective of view). I am pretty sure everyone here had countless games at Onsal where a bunch of people just following group mindlessly.

You may enjoy those But not me, I prefer 24 men that requires you to have tactical thinking and human resource management skill. 72 men restriction is not going to work for NA/EU PvP community because we don’t have that size.

If you don’t want any kind of power scaling in PVP, then how do you incentivize players outside of limited time, achievement based events?

And don’t talk as if Frontlines queues popping is indicative of a healthy PVP scene. A 72 player PVP mode is an RNG moshpit with no strategy. And the other 2 PVP modes are inaccessible outside peak times. Please.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

It may be the case for you if you are Zerg type of player that must have a healer to follow you around. Not for me, that type of a PvP just plain straight mind numbing clown feasr. (again, this is my perspective of view). I am pretty sure everyone here had countless games at Onsal where a bunch of people just following group mindlessly.

You may enjoy those But not me, I prefer 24 men that requires you to have tactical thinking and human resource management skill. 72 men restriction is not going to work for NA/EU PvP community because we don’t have that size.

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Yeah but what is the identity of Frontline? I don't think it's fair to manufacture and produce that kind of experience from something that says you are queueing for Frontline, you are hoping to get into Frontline, then the gameplay experience is radically different when you zone in. That's not Frontline anymore. Like, it feels like the fundamental shift in 8v8v8 is way out of bounds with the way any kind of duty you queue for in FFXIV can change. Sounds like a reason to craft a small scale experience more conducive to organized strategic PvP that isn't Feast, to stand on its own. I totally respect that some people don't dig the chaotic nature of FL but I think the mode should embrace its volatile experience and when people queue for it, that's what they should get.

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Originally Posted by Kezzic

then how do you incentivize players outside of limited time, achievement based events?

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The most simplest way would be using what already exists. PvP Rank. Make PvP Rank meaningful again, set it to Rank100. Current Rank1-50 should take same time as 1-100, to compensate for people who are already Rank50 in all GC. In the past you could unlock traits to PvP Skills with Rank Points, the more points the more options. There could be unique skills for Frontline and Feast seperately. I wouldn't be against an armor set that has a rank requirement either. It would be a long term incentive for people to actually play longer - like a themed GC armor.
You could display ranks within frontlines and make challenges around killing people with a certain rank. You could adjust matchmaking algorithm to consider Rank, then we wouldn't need forced freelancer.
This is just all the things they already had once in the game or are still in the game, if you really wanted you could do even more. Feast could have way more different incentives aswell, but many people mentioned them in the past already.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

The most simplest way would be using what already exists. PvP Rank. Make PvP Rank meaningful again, set it to Rank100. Current Rank1-50 should take same time as 1-100, to compensate for people who are already Rank50 in all GC. In the past you could unlock traits to PvP Skills with Rank Points, the more points the more options. There could be unique skills for Frontline and Feast seperately. I wouldn't be against an armor set that has a rank requirement either. It would be a long term incentive for people to actually play longer - like a themed GC armor.
You could display ranks within frontlines and make challenges around killing people with a certain rank. You could adjust matchmaking algorithm to consider Rank, then we wouldn't need forced freelancer.
This is just all the things they already had once in the game or are still in the game, if you really wanted you could do even more. Feast could have way more different incentives aswell, but many people mentioned them in the past already.

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The fact PvP Rank does virtually nothing now except titles makes me really sad. Half the reason I was so focused on ranking it up back in HW was because I learned about PvP additionals and knew I needed I think it was 46 or 48 to get the maximum amount of stuff.

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Originally Posted by Gula

Within games that focus on PVP, it's often encouraged to be able to curb stomp someone,

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There's the difference.
FF14 is far from being PVP focused.
It's strictly side content but would suddenly become the single biggest time commitment in this game if you added upkeep to stay competitive in PVP.
You say

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Originally Posted by Gula

You would quit, but I guarantee hundreds of people would replace you.

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What is that based on? Your gut feeling?
Can you support that assessment?
Otherwise we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, because my gut says PVP sometimes feels like it's on lifesupport and making it not respect a players time (very contrary to the rest of FF14's design) would not be healthy for it.

Make frontline roullete an actual roullete for starters.

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Originally Posted by seros

Make frontline roullete an actual roullete for starters.

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They will in 5.3.
It's still being used to showcase the new map that dropped in 5.15 (God 5.2 has gone on forever).

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Originally Posted by seros

Make frontline roullete an actual roullete for starters.

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The daily queue will start rotating all four maps starting on patch day with the Borderland Ruins, followed by Seal Rock the day after, and so forth.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

There's the difference.
FF14 is far from being PVP focused.
It's strictly side content but would suddenly become the single biggest time commitment in this game if you added upkeep to stay competitive in PVP.
You say

What is that based on? Your gut feeling?
Can you support that assessment?
Otherwise we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, because my gut says PVP sometimes feels like it's on lifesupport and making it not respect a players time (very contrary to the rest of FF14's design) would not be healthy for it.

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I'm pretty sure I mentioned it before, if not, probably in another thread.

I know.

I know XIV isn't built for it, but I'm answering OP all the same in what would work.

And how about just looking up any long standing game with PVP and what makes it work? It's not random, it's just how it works. That's why people still play Aion despite it being cash shop trash now, private servers are plenty active too. It's why people play shooters. It's why broken jank games with unfair advantages can live and breathe well beyond what you would think their lifespan to be. Fighting games have meta, Smash has a meta. People. Want. the Meta

Actually take your head out of XIV for one moment and look at the industry. You can get all the proof you want by logging into another online game that's active and PVP focused and seeing the people at it. Even mobile games. You don't need to dedicate hours of your life to youtube something either. XIV isn't going to be like those games, no duh. But OP asked a question, this is explaining why it would work. I am not saying OMG ADD IT RIGHT NOW because I'm guessing you just like, skipped the part where I said I wouldn't want to change it to cherry pick my post.