I want to start by stating the philosophy behind my ideas. I feel that even though tanks are currently balanced at lv 80, there could be a few tweaks done to the leveling kits to make them feel more "complete" by lv 70. I strongly feel that the tank jobs should have their toolkits more or less "complete" by that time, not only because of the existence of ultimate content, but because moving forward, lv 70 should be the "middle ground" for the jobs, and that lv 71-80, possibly 90 in the future, can be used to further empower the existing kits through smart use of traits, with an occasional new skill for more flavour.
I wanted to compile a list of short changes to the leveling kits of the tank jobs that i think could make them more fun for new players during the leveling process, for core players who run synced content such as dailies, or veterans who run ultimate content, as well as maintain their balance at lv 80. not only that, but I believe introducing these tools earlier would help newer tanks become adjusted to using them as part of their rotation at a more natural rate, as well as building some much needed game sense at an earlier level for those who strive to do their best.
PLD: while it does not need many changes, there are a few things that can be done to make it feel smoother and adding a bit of fun.
sheltron- lv 35. this should have a base duration of 6 seconds imo, with a trait around the 60-70 range that lowers its gauge cost to 30. these changes would make PLD feel sturdier without adding button bloat.
Intervene- lv 52. introducing PLDs gap closer at an earlier level will help newer tanks with being more efficient in their movement between mobs, and can also be helpful with efficiently moving to bosses after an aoe. besides, it's a fun skill, and most tanks get their gap closers by lv 60, so PLD shouldn't be left out. at lv 74 it gets the trait to add a second charge
DRK: while its not STB DRK, the current build has potential to be fun for both new players and veterans, and it definitely needs some tweaks to achieve that.
Blood weapon- lv 30. this would help new DRK players learn about building and spending mana from the getgo, while at the same time easing the difficulty of haukke and brayflox for those who are leveling.
Edge of Darkness- lv 35. moving this back would make a few of the middle dungeons such as sunken temple and cutters cry a little more bearable, and would make room for the next skill to be moved in its place
Stalwart Soul- lv 40. this skill is extremely nice for DRK to have at a lower level. it's not too strong, and helps round out the aoe rotation of DRK, but it is unlocked way too late for a 160 potency skill. the other 3 tanks have their aoe rotations at this level, and I feel DRK would benefit from this change a lot. mana generation is already extremely limited in this class, and getting stalwart earlier would be the perfect tool to ease that problem for both older content as well as helping newer DRKs get accustomed to mana management at an earlier level. it would of course need to undergo slight changes to balance DRKs damage output at the lower levels, but it could also introduce a trait at lv 72 that brings it back to its current form, or maybe even stronger. might need to be weakened and then given a trait to power it up later, since it might be too strong for the lv 40 content.
Abyssal Drain- lv 56. if you wont make it a mana spender, give it 2 charges you cowards!
Dark Missionary- lv 58. the hole in DRKs kit (rip soul survivor) at this level could be filled with DM. there is a lot of magical raidwide damage in HW, STB and SHB, and bringing this skill to an earlier level would allow newer DRKs to get used to using it for raidwide damage much sooner, an important skill in the long run. this would also help fill DRKs lack of raidwide mitigation for savage and ultimate content as well. might need a trait later down the line to bring it up to 90 sec cooldown, as it might be too strong for the older HW content.
the hole left at lv 72 could introduce traits that enhance stalwart and CnS mana generation. perhaps making them each generate 1200 mana to help DRKs lower DPS in the lv 80 content.
the hole at lv 76 could be used for anything else the devs might want to tweak for DRKs performance, but I cannot think of anything other than a trait that makes BW 15 seconds, but i dont know how much help that would be, or if its even wanted/needed. possibly the aforementioned Dark Missionary trait.
As for WAR and GNB, I feel that I am not educated enough on their kits and playstyle to make any comments, so I would instead invite you guys to add your own ideas. I just hope that compiling a list of simple changes to leveling kits would help Square see that even with balance at lv 80, there are gameplay issues in the everyday synced experience, the new player leveling journey, and as well as for those who run savage and ultimate content synced.
Leveling Kit tweaks for Tank Jobs
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07-20-2020, 11:46 AMbundythenoobLeveling Kit tweaks for Tank Jobs
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07-20-2020, 05:53 PMDaliena
Having TBN a bit earlier than 70 as a DRK would be nice, I feel..
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07-20-2020, 06:00 PMJirah
Stalwart soul is literally no reason to be a late 70 skill. While GNB, WAR and PAL get their AOEs pre-50s
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07-20-2020, 08:36 PMQuor
Can't disagree with any of these, they're all pretty reasonable.
GNB - it's fine as is because it starts at 60. Only 10 levels later you get your full Renzokuken combo and your aoe cartridge spender comes shortly after that. No changes needed.
WAR - sure would be nice if Nascent Glint came earlier though. I really miss WAR being the self-healing meat tank. Just mounds of HP to carve through coupled with the ability to keep themselves up when in a crowd. I miss Bloodbath, and I've come to terms with the fact that WAR will never know that glorious feeling again, but NG gets close. Alternatively, add a healing component to IB/SC/FC/Deci such that a WAR gets some HP back when those moves are used, scaling as all other such things do of course. -
07-21-2020, 01:37 AMReinhardt_Azureheim
Generally I agree that moving certain skills down the pipe is generally not a bad idea like they did with Sheltron with Shadowbringers, however I don't quite agree with all of them. I'll go over it in detail and explain why it is actually not ok / healthy for the levelling process and experience. Power budget matters for levelling too.
I can get behind the Sheltron changes and I for one would love Sheltron get some love after they took away Bulwark from them in favor of the meme that we currently have, but honestly baseline 8s is a bit powerful. Making it baseline 6s and traiting it up to 8s with the Lv74 Trait does sound alright though.Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
Lowering gauge cost is effectively a cooldown reduction. While I am receptive of this change, it still has two fundamental issues:
- you still have to generate the resource with auto attacks (NIN had this replaced)
- you shift the power budget a fair bit around within the kit, assuming you keep Intervention at 50 gauge. Not bad per se, but would require careful tuning.
Personally, make Sheltron a 25s / 30s cooldown with two charges and share resources with Intervention. Upside, you have Sheltron from the get go and dont have to farm it and dont get punished if you lose uptime for any reason from a boss, making PLD sturdier as a maintank. Downside, potentially less Sheltron over the course of a fight (22s charge time right now with 2.2s auto attack interval) after a certain breakpoint, assuming you use Sheltron without ever overcapping.
Intervene, honestly no. PLD has their niche for Lv60 being the only tank with their 2nd AOE mitigation (bar reprisal), for Lv70 they have a ranged attack window and even more AOE mitigation. Having Intervene be the Lv74 gapclosers will make it a big "FINALLY" for when players eventually reach it, rather than have it handed down "just because others have it". Great skill, but there should be joy in learning skills after reaching a higher point in the game - Intervene does a good job on that.
Literally just "I want this a bit earlier", but overall for the levelling or dungeon experience it hardly matters and you will learn it in time by Lv50, assuming you don't POTD.Quote:
DRK: while its not STB DRK, the current build has potential to be fun for both new players and veterans, and it definitely needs some tweaks to achieve that.
Blood weapon- lv 30. this would help new DRK players learn about building and spending mana from the getgo, while at the same time easing the difficulty of haukke and brayflox for those who are leveling.
Edge of Darkness- lv 35. moving this back would make a few of the middle dungeons such as sunken temple and cutters cry a little more bearable, and would make room for the next skill to be moved in its place
Unless it has restrictions and is traited up, hard no. Let me explain.Quote:
Stalwart Soul- lv 40. this skill is extremely nice for DRK to have at a lower level. it's not too strong, and helps round out the aoe rotation of DRK, but it is unlocked way too late for a 160 potency skill. the other 3 tanks have their aoe rotations at this level, and I feel DRK would benefit from this change a lot. mana generation is already extremely limited in this class, and getting stalwart earlier would be the perfect tool to ease that problem for both older content as well as helping newer DRKs get accustomed to mana management at an earlier level. at lv 62 it can generate the 20 blood just like it does now
At Lv40+, every tank has access to at least two AOEs, including DRK. What sets DRK apart is that their's is oGCD and at a rather high potency, only restricted by MP cost. It also is their way of entering Darkside, buffing their general damage output. PLD's AOE in comparison is fairly alright at 120-220, WAR has 150-200 but refreshes Storm's Eye if applied and GNB generates cartridges for Burst Strike.
If you gave DRK Stalwart Soul at lv40, you'd need to remove or heavily reduce MP generation until a later point, otherwise the AOE dps of DRK at lv40-60 would be absolutely bonkers. What you could do for example is introduce it at Lv40, let it generate blood at lv62 (blood gauge acquired) and generate (more) MP [200/300 -> 600] and even Blood [10 -> 20].
The other tanks have a similar scheme there. WAR doesnt generate Beast Gauge until Lv74 with their AOE combo, PLD doesnt have use for MP until they learn Holy Circle for AOE and same applies for GNB's Fated Circle.
In a nutshell, current Stalwart Soul is too strong for anything below Lv72. In SHB, the AOE combo is viable at two targets already due to the resource generation being applied over two GCDs rather than 3, only losing out when it comes to utilizing Blood Weapon due to their 2.50s GCD recast.
Honestly, fat YES from me. Having that second charge to allow me to manage it better for pack healing would be fantastic. Though similar with Plunge trait, likely a trait at a later point, but I'd be ok with it.Quote:
Abyssal Drain- lv 56. if you wont make it a mana spender, give it 2 charges you cowards!
I'll admit that having Dark Missionary earlier than Lv76 (at least for Stormblood content) would be desirable even from me, given what they did with GNB and how it affected Ultimates (UCOB + UWU) with their kit being pretty much "complete" with Lv70. For HW content, idk man. Seems overkill to me, would leave PLD as the sole tank having their AOE mitigation for that period honestly.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Dark Missionary- lv 58. the hole in DRKs kit (rip soul survivor) at this level could be filled with DM. there is a lot of magical raidwide damage in HW, STB and SHB, and bringing this skill to an earlier level would allow newer DRKs to get used to using it for raidwide damage much sooner, an important skill in the long run. this would also help fill DRKs lack of raidwide mitigation for savage and ultimate content as well.
Lv72: Carve and Spit, no, Stalwart Soul, yes if you apply what I wrote above. Important to remember that you can translate MP to potency for OGCD spenders, meaning +600MP would mean +100 potency at Lv80 (assuming Edge of Shadow use only).Quote:
the hole left at lv 72 could introduce traits that enhance stalwart and CnS mana generation. perhaps making them each generate 1200 mana to help DRks lower DPS in the lv 80 content.
the hole at lv 76 could be used for anything else the devs might want to tweak for DRKs performance, but I cannot think of anything other than a trait that makes BW 15 seconds, but i dont know how much help that would be, or if its even wanted/needed.
Lv76: Abyssal Drain trait as I wrote above maybe?
BW trait would just further excarbate the issue that current Blood Weapon has, which is that each BW represents +500 potency in MP and +200/300/400 potency in GCD depending what you replace for Bloodspiller and it generally is rather annoying to deal with even with really good ping due to potential jitter in your connection. More ticks = more pressure on making sure to land all GCDs under it. Also lul more MP generation.
Anyways, that is just my take on how I see the kits and as you may notice, I am less interested in the "fun" and rather in the appropriate design of kits / game design, so feel free to disagree and take things with a grain of salt. -
07-21-2020, 04:31 AMbundythenoobYou actually brought up a few points I hadn't thought about when I initially posted this, and I was going to edit into the post today, but I'll just post as a reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
For the reasons behind my initial post, I believe that all of the tank job kits should be more or less "complete" by lv 70 (for both the leveling players enjoyment and for ultimate content as well)
with lv 71-80 adding traits that further empower their already existing kits. this would make each job feel more complete, while helping new players get used to their toolkits at an earlier level. i think this may be a more natural way to solve the problem of tanks not being up to par at lv 80 content.
For BW and Edge being moved earlier, they might not seem to be big changes, but I would suggest moving these just to make those middling dungeons a little easier for new DRK players. not everyone plays POTD, so they have to suffer with having those synced levels, and this makes the lv 28-38 dungeons a bit of a chore.
for Dark Missionary, It might be a little too overkill for HW, but I think if anything the 10% magic reduction isn't a whole lot when compared to how much stronger Divine Veil is at raidwide mitigation at that level. either way, my reasoning for this choice was that I had a convo with a friend of mine (he just started at shb) in which I asked him what he thinks DRK could use in their toolkit, and he suggested missionary because he noticed there is a lot of lv 58-76 content in which missionary could be useful, and that the hole in DRKs kit at lv 58 would be a nice place to have it. having it at lv 58 wouldn't hurt the lower end HW dungeons, and would allow DRKs to begin learning about raidwide magic mitigation at a much earlier stage in their gameplay.
As for Stalwart, I do think you're right about Stalwart being too strong. I initially thought it would be fine with its current power level only if abyssal drain was reintroduced as a mana spender, which is why I suggested it get a trait at lv 72 to bring it up to power, but I guess I should have elaborated on that. the current iteration of stalwart can definitely be reigned in like you suggested,
lv 40 would be something like 160 potency, 300 mana generation
lv 62 blackblood trait makes it generate 10 blood gauge
lv 72 enhanced stalwart would make it 600 mana generation/20 blood gauge
I just think stalwart is a neat tool and its animation is great, but it shouldn't be restricted to a lv 72 skill. not only do the other 3 tanks have their full aoe rotation by lv 40, but moving stalwart early would also help with the mana generation that DRK is lacking in its 1-70 kit. Pre-50, it only has Syphon and BW, and by lv 60 it only adds CnS (which is a measly 600). the problem imo is that all of these are single target, and it makes unleash feel somewhat weaker in comparison. by adding Stalwart in, I think that DRKs can get that hole in their kit patched up quite nicely. to further add in, I play a lot of synced content with friends, and I noticed that DRK feels somewhat squishier than PLD in the pre 60 content, and what better way to make up for that lack of defence than with a stronger offence, as DRK always did? -
07-21-2020, 05:22 AMReinhardt_Azureheim
Making the jobs feel complete by Lv70 is a fair point. That probably is the reason why you moved things like Intervene to a lower point, which would be a bit redundant though given PLD's ability to cast Holy Spirit at that level, but I repeat myself, so moving on. Making jobs feel complete for Ultimate content needs to be primarily adressed within mitigation tools if anything. I can't speak for UCOB, but for UWU DRK falls a bit behind if only for Dark Missionary missing compared to the other three tanks. The fight itself is very raid-wide heavy, so it stings. Things like gapclosers or combo advancements shouldn't necessarily be added for Lv70 Ultimates - if anything I think they made GNB a bit too good for having such a powerful kit at that level.
BW + Edge, yeah figured, I didn't talk much about it because I felt kinda "meh" about it.
Dark Missionary being available at Lv70 but not at Lv60 has a reason tbh. Dungeons and normal raids are pretty much trivialized anyways, but Dun Scaith and the Savage raids (SYNCED, min. item level optional) still have spice to it and even if it is only a small group doing things synced or so old in content, it shouldn't get trivialized by DRK having an already well-rounded kit at Lv60. The same way Lv60 synced Savage are niche so are Lv70 ultimates, so gotta stay fair here.
Glad you saw my point with Stalwart Soul though. If Abyssal Drain was still a manaspender, I "could" see it work out, but only if we keep it on OGCD and make it weaker than Flood of Shadow - which means the general use of the skill would go down outside of dungeon runs when it is a perfectly viable skill even in boss fights. So that 2-charge idea sits a lot better imo.
DRK being "squishy" at 60 and below, in my humble opinion, is a bit of a myth. Arguably yes, you do simply lack TBN and you rely on magic damage being around for better mitigation options, but if you take out Bloodspiller and Quietus from your GCD options, you are left with your 1-2-3 combo. Souleater goes a *seriously* long way for sustain. Many times I saved myself in The Epic of Alexander just from having the extra sustain from Souleater, so if you have even more in Lv60 content due to lack of Blood skills, up goes the HP/s. So DRK, imo, is fairly rounded at Lv60. It is the Lv63-lv69 gap where DRK may feel a tad squishy if you go REALLY big on pulls without a decent plan and / or healer, but apart from that, on bosses you are tip-top. -
07-21-2020, 06:18 AMbundythenoob
Making Jobs feel complete by lv 70 is an idea I had not primarily due to balance for Ultimate content, but more for the overall enjoyment of jobs going forward. if the next expac is going to give us lv 81-90, then I think that lv 70 would be a good "middle ground" for most jobs to feel complete so to speak. The movement of Missionary would indeed help the ultimate content, but my primary goal for moving skills around would be more for the leveling and synced content experiences.
I can see your point about lv 60 synced content, and I do agree that DRK shouldn't become overpowered for people who enjoy that niche (I LOVE Dun Scaith btw, didn't know theres a community out there who does it min ilv, that's hype).
I am just asking for Dark Missionary to be introduced early so that new players can start getting used to looking for moments to mitigate raidwide damage at an earlier level, thus upping their game sense. perhaps at lv 58 it would be on a 120 or 180 sec cooldown, and then at lv 76 it gets a trait to become 90 sec how it is now? this way it will give DRK the opportunity to mitigate the most important attacks while not being too spammable for the content at that tier.
As for the squishy part, I should have elaborated a bit more. When I said that DRK felt squishy compared to PLD, I was referring to the context of doing medium to big pulls in lv 40-60 dungeon content, not so much for bosses.
When running lv 40-60 content, PLD can deal effective AOE damage while mitigating damage taken through its passive block. DRK, however, must give up doing said effective aoe damage in favor of single target sustain due to the lack of passive block. this isn't much of a problem once you get Abyssal Drain, but there are moments where DRK could use the extra damage and mana from Stalwart to help clear the big mobs faster. 1-2-3 single target + flood is effective, but could be better with stalwart in the mix, similar to PLD using TE + Prom + CoS.
As for dungeon bosses, trials, and normal raids, you are correct in that Souleater is indeed effective sustain in the long run, and there isn't much of a problem in that department, but I do feel that prior to both AD and TBN, DRK does feel somewhat lacking in the defence, which it should make up for with more offence IMO, since giving it TBN too early would completely destroy the balance to an almost laughable degree. -
07-23-2020, 09:24 AMbundythenoob
Dropping a small follow up on my thoughts due to the Live Letter.
The lack of announcements for Tank (and healer) adjustments is concerning. I hope that Square is just saving this stuff to surprise us with? or else I can definitely foresee a large uproar. having gone almost an entire year since SHB dropped with almost no changes to tank jobs could definitely make people feel worse about SQ and might lose faith in them. I just hope they make even some small changes to make each of the tank jobs feel just a little better beyond being balanced at lv 80. -
07-23-2020, 12:23 PMQuorTruth be told tanks and healers are pretty bottom of the list right now, minus the ever-whining SCH's anyway, who are still having trouble adjusting to not being OP after three straight versions of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
That might sound harsh but it's the truth. SCH was way overtuned prior to ShB and was due to be brought into line.
I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of info right now; what we're seeing with the LL is both stuff that's been delayed largely due to the coronavirus as well as been in the pipeline since prior to 5.2. Any recent ideas or criticisms from prior to that won't have had a chance to be addressed due to the backlog. Although to be fair, we probably won't see any kind level shifting for job actions until 6.0 comes out, because SE has shown that they are very unlikely to make that kind of change mid-xpac. -
07-25-2020, 07:01 AMbundythenoobI wouldn't say that SCH deserved to remain at the top, but their criticisms are much valid in my opinion. DPS neutering aside, they broke the fairies, selene is outright deleted, and the jobs older healing potencies were not buffed to compensate for their loss of mitigation via dps just to name a few problems. it has glaring mana issues from lv 30 to 45 because of the removal of aetherflow, but adloquium still costs 1k mana, and without lustrate till lv 45 (or energy drain for that matter) you go through your resources way too fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
My bigger worry however, is that in their chase for "balance and accessibility", square will be too busy catering to the wrong crowd to realise that their core audience no longer wants to play said jobs, and with the core audience gone, the overall skill level of the playerbase will be reduced to cure1 bots and tanks who dont use mitigation -
07-29-2020, 01:45 AMcactuarzzzzThe translation in discord says WAR will get adjustment to make it easier to keep Storm's Eye buff. Nothing about DRK tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
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07-30-2020, 05:33 AMBrandedblade
From what i understand of warrior, the biggest thing i wish it had was beast gauge generation the moment you learned it's AoE combo, even if it's at a lower rate of generation and then upgraded to the current value at level 74. Not being able to steel cyclone or decimate pre-74 without popping cooldowns feels really bad tbh.
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08-02-2020, 02:22 PMbundythenoobWould this also fix the problem of WAR's gap closer? I have a friend that says he doesn't like how it feels like it eats into his DPS just to move between packs. not too sure since I don't play WAR (I'm more a greatsword than greataxe type of player)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandedblade
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08-02-2020, 02:41 PMQuorOnslaught is a strange beast. It's technically dps neutral for it's cost, with the benefit of the lowest CD of the gap closers on tanks, as well as the longest range. The issue is you lose out on potential better damage, as it's only a gain if you're making up for a lost GCD via the gap closer OR if it's used under IR.Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
This is in contrast to PLD and GNB, which want to stuff their gap closers into their dps window. DRK is a bit of a middle ground, as they only want to dump their charges under raid buffs, but otherwise are free to keep a charge in the tank as needed. Onslaught is perfectly fine where it is imo, because it's great for utility and ok for damage under the right circumstances. If you remove the cost then it just becomes free damage used on CD, and if you buff it then it just becomes something you use on CD. As it stands now, it's actually a decision that needs to be made instead of something you use as soon as it's available. -
08-05-2020, 07:45 AMbundythenoobMy friend had an idea he told me about the other night. he said it might be cool if the lv 15 ranged attack generated the gauge needed to use the gap closer, but I'm not sure how much of a big change that would bring. also he said he desperately wants butcher's block back, perhaps repurposed as an alternate combo ender with either a buff or a dot . thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
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08-05-2020, 04:25 PMQuorI suggested something nearly identical to that back in Stormblood. The general idea was for each aggro combo to place a debuff on the target that increased damage dealt by 1%, with each tank having it's own unique version of said debuff (so 2% damage bonus possible, 1% from each tank). Have the debuff last 30s, meaning each tank is incentivized to throw out one aggro combo every half minute. Fairly simple, but provides worth and reason for using the aggro combo, but not to the exclusion of the other combos. I also wanted them to treat each aggro combo similar to Butcher's Block. BB was actually the highest potency combo for WAR, but it was overshadowed by the 20 gauge gain on Storm's Path, since 10 more gauge was worth more potency than the 30 additional potency you got doing HS>SS>BB. But at least this way you've got a nice utility debuff paired with the highest raw potency combo a tank can do. Maybe the actual potency numbers would have needed tweaking, but maybe there would have been justification for certain situations where putting the 3rd hit or the 2nd and 3rd hit of your aggro combo inside raid buff windows was worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
One thing I've learned about these boards is that most people here are sheep. That might sound harsh, but it's merely my observation. Appeals to emotion or authority, logical fallacies all the way down, no desire to any meaningful debate...I could go on. Now to be fair, I've had some good discussions with a few people around here to be sure, but it's a sad truth of most humans that they are much more prone to making the easy criticism than they are to try and take a risk and actually suggest something and face that criticism themselves. This is to say nothing of making a criticism and then trying to create a synthesis of concept by offering their own suggestion.
Suffice it to say, my idea was not well-received. Most people just wanted to "get rid" of aggro combos. More simplification. Of course, these same people often sneered at those people who couldn't "git gud" at a job, so it was ironic seeing them encourage further dumbing down of tank gameplay.
Anyway, I don't suggest too much nowadays. There's a handful of people who are willing and able to engage in meaningful discussion, and I enjoy the occasional conversation I have with them on the boards, but mostly people look at FFlogs or listen to the e-celeb flavor of the month to get their "idea" of how tanks are doing, with little thought beyond that. Maybe the numbers on FFlogs "don't look right" to them or something, so SE has to have all hands on deck to buff tank damage because it "feels bad" or something. Nothing interesting that would add challenge or complexity to the job; just gimme bigger numbers. Or the tired refrain that "only" dps matters, but when you bring up that if the healers don't heal and the tanks don't tank then no fight would ever progress past the first 60 seconds, and it's just assumed that the tanks and healers will be flawlessly performing their tank/heal stuff so that means the only thing that matters is damage. Peak sophistry. It's all so tiresome. The kind of tired that sleep won't fix.
As for your other suggestion, I've often thought about what would happen if the tanks each had something unique tied to their ranged attacks. Not anything that you would want to incorporate on a regular basis, but something where "oh, I have to do this mechanic so it's time to spam my ranged attack for 4 GCD's" isn't seen as a complete and total loss like it is now. It could be something as simple as DRK gains like 100-200 MP, GNB gets a small stacking potency buff on their next attack (20 pot per attack, stacks 3 times maybe), that sort of thing. Taking that idea and expanding it I think having Tomahawk grant beast gauge is too simple, and too strong. Every 10 points of gauge is worth ~118 potency, and that would damn near double the effective potency of Tomahawk, which is a huge buff. But the idea is certainly a sound one. Taking a page from DRK, maybe Tomahawk grants a buff for 15s that makes the next use of Onslaught free. You could only ever have one of this buff at a time, but repeated uses of Tomahawk would refresh the duration on the buff, essentially giving WAR all the incentive in the world to dive back in when the opportunity arises.
That's a hair too much like DRK though (specifically how Dark Arts works, albeit much more limited here) so let's add a bit more to it. In addition to this "free Onslaught" buff, Tomahawk would also grant a second buff that stacks up to 3 times. This buff would make it so that the next non-Tomahawk GCD has an additional two effects; first off, each stack of the buff grants an extra 20 raw potency to the attack, for a maximum of 60 additional potency. This potency would work on stuff from Heavy Swing and Overpower to Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone; every GCD in other words. Secondly, with at least one stack of this buff, the next non-Tomahawk GCD used would also refresh Storm's Eye back to it's full duration.
Putting all this together, WAR now has a ranged attack that zeroes the cost of their gap closer, making it a bit easier to maintain their rotation over the course of a fight (no more being stuck out because you miscalculated gauge or missed a GCD by a hair at some point). At the same time, it also increases complexity; 60 free potency isn't much, but 60 free guaranteed direct crit potency sure is nice. That's essentially 10% of a Fell Cleave. WAR now has an incentive to unleash a big attack - ideally Inner Chaos or an IR'd Fell Cleave - immediately after closing back in on the target, the better to optimize this 60 potency with. WAR's are now rewarded for planning ahead a bit more with their CD usage, maybe tweaking Infuriate use or slightly delaying an IR window in order to maximize the damage gain.
And if you can't get that whole 60 potency, then you still get at least 20 potency, a free Onslaught, and SE gets refreshed in a single GCD. This would tackle a pair of QoL issues for WAR but in a way that's way more interesting than something like increasing SE's duration or what not. -
08-06-2020, 07:06 AMbundythenoob
i quite like the idea of the ranged attacks not breaking your combo and giving each job a small QOL perk. the idea that tomahawk could refresh SE buff and make your next onslaught free would be really nice, ideally a trait you can get in the mid 60s. the 60 potency thing would probably work out if they made it a high level trait (like 70+) so as to not upset the balance for ultimate content while also making the other 3 jobs have unique versions of that.
as for the return of the old emnity combos, I'm not sure why anyone would rather see them removed than be repurposed, but i do like the idea of them giving you something else. i don't think square wants to return to mandatory debuffs, but small QOL changes would be nice too. Can't think of anything good atm without breaking balance though, but that's more due to square's insistence that tank job damage be curtailed so hard (a whole separate issue entirely) -
08-08-2020, 01:39 PMDRKoftheAzureExcept there are traits that already fit the bill; "Blackblood" which isn't unlocked until you get your first Blood Gauge spender to go with it, and "Darkside Mastery" for the Edge/Flood upgrade. Therefore moving Stalwart Soul is actually a better decision for this expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
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08-09-2020, 07:55 AMbundythenoobI think he was referring more to the fact that the extra 600mp would make edge and flood too strong for ARR content, due to the fact that not only is stalwart 160pot, but the extra edges and floods will add up along with the darkside 10% bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
My thought on that was just to nerf edge/flood, or to maybe reduce darkside to 5% until level 62 or something, but I do strongly feel that stalwart should be moved to lv 40, not because it's OP, but because having to wait until lv 72 for a tool that all other tanks get at lv 40 feels terribad, especially for a job that is being used as the poster boy for SHB advertisement. -
08-09-2020, 08:28 AMDRKoftheAzureIf those people who want to keep spamming Souleater combo in AoE just to get MP back for Flood of Darkness then go for it, I'm not going to stop the people who want to do it. I'm just going to tell them that there is a better QoL option they could go for if they really want it...Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
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08-09-2020, 08:43 AMbundythenoobthis is the reason why i feel that stalwart really needs to be moved to lv 40. by having it moved early, it can let people build more resource and do more damage, while making the gameplay loop of the job feel much better than just spamming unleash with the occasional flood till u can use quietus every now and then.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
in ARR content, DRK is so starved of mana because the devs don't want Edge/Flood to be used more frequently that you end up having to single target while in AOE fights in order to flood, because unleash just doesn't cut it by itself. on top of that, the weaker AOE damage from not having stalwart makes DRK have to rely on souleater for HP even more until we get Abyss Drain (which should at least get an extra charge at lv 60 something sheesh)
in HW dungeons, the lack of stalwart makes the gameplay loop feel identical to ARR until you get abyssal drain, which is only usable once a minute anyway, and with Salted being so much weaker and coming twice as slow as it used to, it ends up getting very little use overall. the lack of Sole Survivor at lv 58 makes the job still feel slow at building, and at lv 60 CnS only restores 600 every minute.
STB dungeons don't get that much better until you get quietus, and even then its lack of inherit mana generation means that until delirium at 68, it just becomes a stronger unleash you can throw out every now and then.
If the devs really want to keep tank damage low, then they could just nerf the potencies on edge/flood to make up for the extra damage and resource that stalwart would bring. this would also end up changing DRKs power in HW and STB content, but it would end up being a healthy change that could allow the job to feel much more engaging and powerful -
08-09-2020, 09:39 AMDRKoftheAzureAgreed. (though if you have seen some of my more recent posts you will know why I think this QoL would not be enough to get former DRK players playing DRK again)Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
Very starved for MP and HP recovery options.Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
Yeah... I never got why a 450 potency attack that restores 600 MP needs to be on a 1 minute cooldown... ESPECIALLY with how boring the overall gameplay loop is making it the longest minute ever... same with putting Salted Earth on a 90 recast timer(Salted Earth being ground targeting DoT justifying the long recast timer is a idiotic argument in the long term)Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
That was mostly because of the "Delirium Rework" which was already terrible at Shadowbringers launch but further proves that the person who did the DRK "rework" does not know what DRK mains want...Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
This would make people just not do content at all and make people ask for class progression skip items to be set at current level cap instead of what's currently set to, while also make people leave because they don't want to spend anymore money than they want/have/need to just to enjoy the overall experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
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08-09-2020, 11:34 AMbundythenoobWhile i do definitely agree that DRK can use a lot more QOL changes, the objective of this thread was to present some ideas that could be implemented quickly using the existing kit as a base in order to give DRK some more QOL during the leveling process (ideally implemented during 5.3, but..) sadly though i doubt anything even close to this will be implemented just because tanks are balanced at lv 80 and square doesnt seem to think that the leveling process is as important as the lv 80, which I think is a huge mistake considering almost 90% of the games content is level synced.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
I am interested to know if you have any other ideas that could be implemented though, so do post away if you want! -
08-09-2020, 01:46 PMDRKoftheAzureI agree with leveling being just as important as the level cap stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
As for "QoL Rework Ideas" I have a lot of ideas for the tanks. And I mean A LOT! So expect this next post to get edited because of character limit.
*Dark Knight:
Bringing back Heavensward PVP exclusive skills Carnal Chill as your target AoE combo starter(10% damage reduction maintenance debuff) at level 50(no class quest needed) with Salted Earth reworked into being the second stage of the target AoE combo(DoT maintenance and Abyssal Drain being the combo ender and it restores HP and MP and generates 20 Blood Gauge, and Tar Pit is the level 40 PBAoE second stage combo restores HP and MP and generates 10 Blood Gauge when you get the Blackblood trait and Stalwart Soul gets its potency buffed and restores HP as well as MP and generates 10 Blood Gauge to justify it being an PBAoE combo ender at level 72.
Blood Weapon needs it's haste buff back and have its MP and Blood Gauge affect all actions that inflict damage, and would need to cut Blood Gauge generation down to 5 increase it's duration to 30 seconds, and bring back Blood Price and have be the HP equivalent of Blood Weapon and they both share a recast timer and their recast timer is 25(this will make sense in the next line).
Scourge can come back as DoT second stage combo that generates and gives you a 50 Cure Potency Regen that generates 5 Blood Gauge per tick, with Delirium being reworked back into its weaponskill form, but not refreshes Darkside and Blood weapon/Price timers by 10 seconds to a maximum of 30, with a trait that buffs your AoE combo enders to do the same at level 78(Plunge would have 2 charges baseline).
Syphon Strike restores HP, MP, and generates 10 Blood Gauge, and Souleater does the same as Syphon Strike but stronger in HP recovery.
Spinning Slash and Power Slash can come back as the enmity generating combo but would need to generate 600 MP and 10 Blood Gauge each(for offtanking).
Darkside is it's own separate button again with a 25 second recast and last 30 seconds and you obtain Living Shadow at level 70(level job quest can give you the ability glamour Living Shadow pet thing) and is basically a tank pet with all of the DRK tools(including Provoke and Shirk) and basically mirrors all of your attacking actions(when the pet is Main tank it has Blood Price active, other wise Blood Weapon and Darkside are both active and infinite duration on the pet) and is susceptible to taking damage from other mechanics and Living Shadow remains active so long as you have Darkside time remaining or the pet dies.
(Dark Arts is a completely different beast that I have multiple ideas for but some of those ideas might need to be their separate thing skipping this for now and same goes for Carve and Spit, Bloodspiller, Quietus, Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow, and The Blackest Night).
Living Dead... Just make so that you hit that 100% HP restored point you get a buff indicating that you can enter 10 second invincible buff state once Walking Dead debuff wears off and if Living Dead falls off and you don't enter Walking Dead State just reset recast to 30 Seconds.
Dark Dance comes back but with 70-80% parry rate and upgrades into Dark Mind.
Sole Survivor come back in it's 4.3 version but also now increases the targets damage received by 5% minimum(maybe have a trait that upgrades it into a target AoE and increases the targets damage received to maybe 10-15%)
Dark Missionary gives a 25% HP Barrier to all party members in range and reduces magic damage received by 15%.
*Paladin:
Replace Rage of Halone/Royal Authority with Savage Blade(this will make sense in the next sentence)
Move Atonement and Sword Oath trait to level 50, at level 60 you get a Sword Oath Trait that a at 2 or less stacks Atonement becomes Rage of Halone, and at level 70 you get another Sword Oath trait that at 1 stack turns Rage of Halone into Royal Authority(all are unlocked by doing the level 50, 60, and 70 Paladin quests respectively)
Bring back Convalescence and make it a 400-600 Cure potency spell(Vercure for Paladins)
Divine Veil can be an oGCD AoE Convalescence that's a 300 cure potency regen with its current HP Barrier effect.
Cover either has it's gauge cost removed or has it's recast timer reduced drastically.
Shield Oath comes back and gets reworked into a level 60 trait that buffs all of Paladins healing abilities with shielding(or Heal Shields like Scholars and actually stacks with Scholar and Astrologian heal shields).
Shield Bash becomes a 20 Second oGCD and Shield Swipe makes a return but no longer requires the block proc and potency is 110.
Sheltron and Intervention has gauge cost cut to 20.
*Warrior:
Basically anything that boosts Warriors defenses by a certain % also boost it's HP by that %.
(Warriors combo structure, Infuriate mechanic, and Berserk/Inner Release need a more detailed rework)
*Gunbreaker:
Continuation needs to be available at level 1 and get a Continuation skill every time you gain a new GCD skill(yes I know this will require rehashing a lot of Gunbreakers animations and maybe add some new animations to throw into the mix but still)
Aurora gets a baseline 1200 cure potency with its current regen effect and has 2 charges.
Heart of Light still works the way it does baseline but gets additional effects based on if you have both Aurora and/or Brutal Shell buff active(if Aurora is active 1200 cure potency heals with regen of 200 cure potency HoT, Brutal Shell 300 cure potency with heal shield, both effects active are 1500 cure potency heal with heal shield and regen of 200 cure potency HoT).
Camouflage gets buffed with 30 evasion rate to justify 90 second recast timer. -
08-09-2020, 02:30 PMcactuarzzzzClaiming thatQuote:
Originally Posted by bundythenoob
is overstatement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim
The other tanks main like Reinhardt_Azureheim like to assume that without stalwart soul drk aoe power and capability to do big pull is already on par with the rest of the tanks even in ARR.
Let me tell you : I did a potency calculation and found out that even with stalwart soul's mp regen drk's aoe power can only out damage GNB' aoe power at the beginning of the dungeon because mp is full which is like 2 more floods at best. Then for the rest of the dungeon DRK is on par with GNB in term of AOE power. But there is more that other tank love too and try forget to make their argument go smooth if it possible like how at the start of normal 50 dungeon PLD is the tank who came up on top because they can go LEEEEEEEEROY!>Pull the whole room>Pop Hallow Ground + Flight or Fight and burst aoe all the trash mob meanwhile DRK have to go slowly because they can't count on LD, no instant self heal, no extra physical mitigation like other tanks untill lv 70.
I level up both DRK and PLD and clear savage with both. The tanking life of the two in this expansion is like a cliff and a pit.