Leveling Kit tweaks for Tank Jobs

[bundythenoob]

I want to start by stating the philosophy behind my ideas. I feel that even though tanks are currently balanced at lv 80, there could be a few tweaks done to the leveling kits to make them feel more "complete" by lv 70. I strongly feel that the tank jobs should have their toolkits more or less "complete" by that time, not only because of the existence of ultimate content, but because moving forward, lv 70 should be the "middle ground" for the jobs, and that lv 71-80, possibly 90 in the future, can be used to further empower the existing kits through smart use of traits, with an occasional new skill for more flavour.

I wanted to compile a list of short changes to the leveling kits of the tank jobs that i think could make them more fun for new players during the leveling process, for core players who run synced content such as dailies, or veterans who run ultimate content, as well as maintain their balance at lv 80. not only that, but I believe introducing these tools earlier would help newer tanks become adjusted to using them as part of their rotation at a more natural rate, as well as building some much needed game sense at an earlier level for those who strive to do their best.


PLD: while it does not need many changes, there are a few things that can be done to make it feel smoother and adding a bit of fun.

sheltron- lv 35. this should have a base duration of 6 seconds imo, with a trait around the 60-70 range that lowers its gauge cost to 30. these changes would make PLD feel sturdier without adding button bloat.

Intervene- lv 52. introducing PLDs gap closer at an earlier level will help newer tanks with being more efficient in their movement between mobs, and can also be helpful with efficiently moving to bosses after an aoe. besides, it's a fun skill, and most tanks get their gap closers by lv 60, so PLD shouldn't be left out. at lv 74 it gets the trait to add a second charge


DRK: while its not STB DRK, the current build has potential to be fun for both new players and veterans, and it definitely needs some tweaks to achieve that.

Blood weapon- lv 30. this would help new DRK players learn about building and spending mana from the getgo, while at the same time easing the difficulty of haukke and brayflox for those who are leveling.

Edge of Darkness- lv 35. moving this back would make a few of the middle dungeons such as sunken temple and cutters cry a little more bearable, and would make room for the next skill to be moved in its place

Stalwart Soul- lv 40. this skill is extremely nice for DRK to have at a lower level. it's not too strong, and helps round out the aoe rotation of DRK, but it is unlocked way too late for a 160 potency skill. the other 3 tanks have their aoe rotations at this level, and I feel DRK would benefit from this change a lot. mana generation is already extremely limited in this class, and getting stalwart earlier would be the perfect tool to ease that problem for both older content as well as helping newer DRKs get accustomed to mana management at an earlier level. it would of course need to undergo slight changes to balance DRKs damage output at the lower levels, but it could also introduce a trait at lv 72 that brings it back to its current form, or maybe even stronger. might need to be weakened and then given a trait to power it up later, since it might be too strong for the lv 40 content.

Abyssal Drain- lv 56. if you wont make it a mana spender, give it 2 charges you cowards!

Dark Missionary- lv 58. the hole in DRKs kit (rip soul survivor) at this level could be filled with DM. there is a lot of magical raidwide damage in HW, STB and SHB, and bringing this skill to an earlier level would allow newer DRKs to get used to using it for raidwide damage much sooner, an important skill in the long run. this would also help fill DRKs lack of raidwide mitigation for savage and ultimate content as well. might need a trait later down the line to bring it up to 90 sec cooldown, as it might be too strong for the older HW content.

the hole left at lv 72 could introduce traits that enhance stalwart and CnS mana generation. perhaps making them each generate 1200 mana to help DRKs lower DPS in the lv 80 content.
the hole at lv 76 could be used for anything else the devs might want to tweak for DRKs performance, but I cannot think of anything other than a trait that makes BW 15 seconds, but i dont know how much help that would be, or if its even wanted/needed. possibly the aforementioned Dark Missionary trait.



As for WAR and GNB, I feel that I am not educated enough on their kits and playstyle to make any comments, so I would instead invite you guys to add your own ideas. I just hope that compiling a list of simple changes to leveling kits would help Square see that even with balance at lv 80, there are gameplay issues in the everyday synced experience, the new player leveling journey, and as well as for those who run savage and ultimate content synced.

[Daliena]

Having TBN a bit earlier than 70 as a DRK would be nice, I feel..

[Jirah]

Stalwart soul is literally no reason to be a late 70 skill. While GNB, WAR and PAL get their AOEs pre-50s

[Quor]

Can't disagree with any of these, they're all pretty reasonable.

GNB - it's fine as is because it starts at 60. Only 10 levels later you get your full Renzokuken combo and your aoe cartridge spender comes shortly after that. No changes needed.

WAR - sure would be nice if Nascent Glint came earlier though. I really miss WAR being the self-healing meat tank. Just mounds of HP to carve through coupled with the ability to keep themselves up when in a crowd. I miss Bloodbath, and I've come to terms with the fact that WAR will never know that glorious feeling again, but NG gets close. Alternatively, add a healing component to IB/SC/FC/Deci such that a WAR gets some HP back when those moves are used, scaling as all other such things do of course.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Generally I agree that moving certain skills down the pipe is generally not a bad idea like they did with Sheltron with Shadowbringers, however I don't quite agree with all of them. I'll go over it in detail and explain why it is actually not ok / healthy for the levelling process and experience. Power budget matters for levelling too.

PLD: while it does not need many changes, there are a few things that can be done to make it feel smoother and adding a bit of fun.

sheltron- lv 35. this should have a base duration of 8 seconds imo, with a trait around the 60-70 range that lowers its gauge cost to 30. these changes would make PLD feel sturdier without adding button bloat.

Intervene- lv 52. introducing PLDs gap closer at an earlier level will help newer tanks with being more efficient in their movement between mobs, and can also be helpful with efficiently moving to bosses after an aoe. besides, it's a fun skill, and most tanks get their gap closers by lv 60, so PLD shouldn't be left out. at lv 74 it gets the trait to add a second charge

I can get behind the Sheltron changes and I for one would love Sheltron get some love after they took away Bulwark from them in favor of the meme that we currently have, but honestly baseline 8s is a bit powerful. Making it baseline 6s and traiting it up to 8s with the Lv74 Trait does sound alright though.

Lowering gauge cost is effectively a cooldown reduction. While I am receptive of this change, it still has two fundamental issues:
- you still have to generate the resource with auto attacks (NIN had this replaced)
- you shift the power budget a fair bit around within the kit, assuming you keep Intervention at 50 gauge. Not bad per se, but would require careful tuning.

Personally, make Sheltron a 25s / 30s cooldown with two charges and share resources with Intervention. Upside, you have Sheltron from the get go and dont have to farm it and dont get punished if you lose uptime for any reason from a boss, making PLD sturdier as a maintank. Downside, potentially less Sheltron over the course of a fight (22s charge time right now with 2.2s auto attack interval) after a certain breakpoint, assuming you use Sheltron without ever overcapping.

Intervene, honestly no. PLD has their niche for Lv60 being the only tank with their 2nd AOE mitigation (bar reprisal), for Lv70 they have a ranged attack window and even more AOE mitigation. Having Intervene be the Lv74 gapclosers will make it a big "FINALLY" for when players eventually reach it, rather than have it handed down "just because others have it". Great skill, but there should be joy in learning skills after reaching a higher point in the game - Intervene does a good job on that.

DRK: while its not STB DRK, the current build has potential to be fun for both new players and veterans, and it definitely needs some tweaks to achieve that.

Blood weapon- lv 30. this would help new DRK players learn about building and spending mana from the getgo, while at the same time easing the difficulty of haukke and brayflox for those who are leveling.

Edge of Darkness- lv 35. moving this back would make a few of the middle dungeons such as sunken temple and cutters cry a little more bearable, and would make room for the next skill to be moved in its place

Literally just "I want this a bit earlier", but overall for the levelling or dungeon experience it hardly matters and you will learn it in time by Lv50, assuming you don't POTD.

Stalwart Soul- lv 40. this skill is extremely nice for DRK to have at a lower level. it's not too strong, and helps round out the aoe rotation of DRK, but it is unlocked way too late for a 160 potency skill. the other 3 tanks have their aoe rotations at this level, and I feel DRK would benefit from this change a lot. mana generation is already extremely limited in this class, and getting stalwart earlier would be the perfect tool to ease that problem for both older content as well as helping newer DRKs get accustomed to mana management at an earlier level. at lv 62 it can generate the 20 blood just like it does now

Unless it has restrictions and is traited up, hard no. Let me explain.

At Lv40+, every tank has access to at least two AOEs, including DRK. What sets DRK apart is that their's is oGCD and at a rather high potency, only restricted by MP cost. It also is their way of entering Darkside, buffing their general damage output. PLD's AOE in comparison is fairly alright at 120-220, WAR has 150-200 but refreshes Storm's Eye if applied and GNB generates cartridges for Burst Strike.

If you gave DRK Stalwart Soul at lv40, you'd need to remove or heavily reduce MP generation until a later point, otherwise the AOE dps of DRK at lv40-60 would be absolutely bonkers. What you could do for example is introduce it at Lv40, let it generate blood at lv62 (blood gauge acquired) and generate (more) MP [200/300 -> 600] and even Blood [10 -> 20].

The other tanks have a similar scheme there. WAR doesnt generate Beast Gauge until Lv74 with their AOE combo, PLD doesnt have use for MP until they learn Holy Circle for AOE and same applies for GNB's Fated Circle.

In a nutshell, current Stalwart Soul is too strong for anything below Lv72. In SHB, the AOE combo is viable at two targets already due to the resource generation being applied over two GCDs rather than 3, only losing out when it comes to utilizing Blood Weapon due to their 2.50s GCD recast.

Abyssal Drain- lv 56. if you wont make it a mana spender, give it 2 charges you cowards!

Honestly, fat YES from me. Having that second charge to allow me to manage it better for pack healing would be fantastic. Though similar with Plunge trait, likely a trait at a later point, but I'd be ok with it.

Dark Missionary- lv 58. the hole in DRKs kit (rip soul survivor) at this level could be filled with DM. there is a lot of magical raidwide damage in HW, STB and SHB, and bringing this skill to an earlier level would allow newer DRKs to get used to using it for raidwide damage much sooner, an important skill in the long run. this would also help fill DRKs lack of raidwide mitigation for savage and ultimate content as well.

I'll admit that having Dark Missionary earlier than Lv76 (at least for Stormblood content) would be desirable even from me, given what they did with GNB and how it affected Ultimates (UCOB + UWU) with their kit being pretty much "complete" with Lv70. For HW content, idk man. Seems overkill to me, would leave PLD as the sole tank having their AOE mitigation for that period honestly.[/QUOTE]

the hole left at lv 72 could introduce traits that enhance stalwart and CnS mana generation. perhaps making them each generate 1200 mana to help DRks lower DPS in the lv 80 content.
the hole at lv 76 could be used for anything else the devs might want to tweak for DRKs performance, but I cannot think of anything other than a trait that makes BW 15 seconds, but i dont know how much help that would be, or if its even wanted/needed.

Lv72: Carve and Spit, no, Stalwart Soul, yes if you apply what I wrote above. Important to remember that you can translate MP to potency for OGCD spenders, meaning +600MP would mean +100 potency at Lv80 (assuming Edge of Shadow use only).

Lv76: Abyssal Drain trait as I wrote above maybe?

BW trait would just further excarbate the issue that current Blood Weapon has, which is that each BW represents +500 potency in MP and +200/300/400 potency in GCD depending what you replace for Bloodspiller and it generally is rather annoying to deal with even with really good ping due to potential jitter in your connection. More ticks = more pressure on making sure to land all GCDs under it. Also lul more MP generation.

Anyways, that is just my take on how I see the kits and as you may notice, I am less interested in the "fun" and rather in the appropriate design of kits / game design, so feel free to disagree and take things with a grain of salt.

[bundythenoob]

snip

You actually brought up a few points I hadn't thought about when I initially posted this, and I was going to edit into the post today, but I'll just post as a reply.

For the reasons behind my initial post, I believe that all of the tank job kits should be more or less "complete" by lv 70 (for both the leveling players enjoyment and for ultimate content as well)
with lv 71-80 adding traits that further empower their already existing kits. this would make each job feel more complete, while helping new players get used to their toolkits at an earlier level. i think this may be a more natural way to solve the problem of tanks not being up to par at lv 80 content.

For BW and Edge being moved earlier, they might not seem to be big changes, but I would suggest moving these just to make those middling dungeons a little easier for new DRK players. not everyone plays POTD, so they have to suffer with having those synced levels, and this makes the lv 28-38 dungeons a bit of a chore.

for Dark Missionary, It might be a little too overkill for HW, but I think if anything the 10% magic reduction isn't a whole lot when compared to how much stronger Divine Veil is at raidwide mitigation at that level. either way, my reasoning for this choice was that I had a convo with a friend of mine (he just started at shb) in which I asked him what he thinks DRK could use in their toolkit, and he suggested missionary because he noticed there is a lot of lv 58-76 content in which missionary could be useful, and that the hole in DRKs kit at lv 58 would be a nice place to have it. having it at lv 58 wouldn't hurt the lower end HW dungeons, and would allow DRKs to begin learning about raidwide magic mitigation at a much earlier stage in their gameplay.

As for Stalwart, I do think you're right about Stalwart being too strong. I initially thought it would be fine with its current power level only if abyssal drain was reintroduced as a mana spender, which is why I suggested it get a trait at lv 72 to bring it up to power, but I guess I should have elaborated on that. the current iteration of stalwart can definitely be reigned in like you suggested,

lv 40 would be something like 160 potency, 300 mana generation
lv 62 blackblood trait makes it generate 10 blood gauge
lv 72 enhanced stalwart would make it 600 mana generation/20 blood gauge

I just think stalwart is a neat tool and its animation is great, but it shouldn't be restricted to a lv 72 skill. not only do the other 3 tanks have their full aoe rotation by lv 40, but moving stalwart early would also help with the mana generation that DRK is lacking in its 1-70 kit. Pre-50, it only has Syphon and BW, and by lv 60 it only adds CnS (which is a measly 600). the problem imo is that all of these are single target, and it makes unleash feel somewhat weaker in comparison. by adding Stalwart in, I think that DRKs can get that hole in their kit patched up quite nicely. to further add in, I play a lot of synced content with friends, and I noticed that DRK feels somewhat squishier than PLD in the pre 60 content, and what better way to make up for that lack of defence than with a stronger offence, as DRK always did?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Making the jobs feel complete by Lv70 is a fair point. That probably is the reason why you moved things like Intervene to a lower point, which would be a bit redundant though given PLD's ability to cast Holy Spirit at that level, but I repeat myself, so moving on. Making jobs feel complete for Ultimate content needs to be primarily adressed within mitigation tools if anything. I can't speak for UCOB, but for UWU DRK falls a bit behind if only for Dark Missionary missing compared to the other three tanks. The fight itself is very raid-wide heavy, so it stings. Things like gapclosers or combo advancements shouldn't necessarily be added for Lv70 Ultimates - if anything I think they made GNB a bit too good for having such a powerful kit at that level.

BW + Edge, yeah figured, I didn't talk much about it because I felt kinda "meh" about it.

Dark Missionary being available at Lv70 but not at Lv60 has a reason tbh. Dungeons and normal raids are pretty much trivialized anyways, but Dun Scaith and the Savage raids (SYNCED, min. item level optional) still have spice to it and even if it is only a small group doing things synced or so old in content, it shouldn't get trivialized by DRK having an already well-rounded kit at Lv60. The same way Lv60 synced Savage are niche so are Lv70 ultimates, so gotta stay fair here.

Glad you saw my point with Stalwart Soul though. If Abyssal Drain was still a manaspender, I "could" see it work out, but only if we keep it on OGCD and make it weaker than Flood of Shadow - which means the general use of the skill would go down outside of dungeon runs when it is a perfectly viable skill even in boss fights. So that 2-charge idea sits a lot better imo.

DRK being "squishy" at 60 and below, in my humble opinion, is a bit of a myth. Arguably yes, you do simply lack TBN and you rely on magic damage being around for better mitigation options, but if you take out Bloodspiller and Quietus from your GCD options, you are left with your 1-2-3 combo. Souleater goes a *seriously* long way for sustain. Many times I saved myself in The Epic of Alexander just from having the extra sustain from Souleater, so if you have even more in Lv60 content due to lack of Blood skills, up goes the HP/s. So DRK, imo, is fairly rounded at Lv60. It is the Lv63-lv69 gap where DRK may feel a tad squishy if you go REALLY big on pulls without a decent plan and / or healer, but apart from that, on bosses you are tip-top.

[bundythenoob]

Making Jobs feel complete by lv 70 is an idea I had not primarily due to balance for Ultimate content, but more for the overall enjoyment of jobs going forward. if the next expac is going to give us lv 81-90, then I think that lv 70 would be a good "middle ground" for most jobs to feel complete so to speak. The movement of Missionary would indeed help the ultimate content, but my primary goal for moving skills around would be more for the leveling and synced content experiences.

I can see your point about lv 60 synced content, and I do agree that DRK shouldn't become overpowered for people who enjoy that niche (I LOVE Dun Scaith btw, didn't know theres a community out there who does it min ilv, that's hype).
I am just asking for Dark Missionary to be introduced early so that new players can start getting used to looking for moments to mitigate raidwide damage at an earlier level, thus upping their game sense. perhaps at lv 58 it would be on a 120 or 180 sec cooldown, and then at lv 76 it gets a trait to become 90 sec how it is now? this way it will give DRK the opportunity to mitigate the most important attacks while not being too spammable for the content at that tier.

As for the squishy part, I should have elaborated a bit more. When I said that DRK felt squishy compared to PLD, I was referring to the context of doing medium to big pulls in lv 40-60 dungeon content, not so much for bosses.

When running lv 40-60 content, PLD can deal effective AOE damage while mitigating damage taken through its passive block. DRK, however, must give up doing said effective aoe damage in favor of single target sustain due to the lack of passive block. this isn't much of a problem once you get Abyssal Drain, but there are moments where DRK could use the extra damage and mana from Stalwart to help clear the big mobs faster. 1-2-3 single target + flood is effective, but could be better with stalwart in the mix, similar to PLD using TE + Prom + CoS.

As for dungeon bosses, trials, and normal raids, you are correct in that Souleater is indeed effective sustain in the long run, and there isn't much of a problem in that department, but I do feel that prior to both AD and TBN, DRK does feel somewhat lacking in the defence, which it should make up for with more offence IMO, since giving it TBN too early would completely destroy the balance to an almost laughable degree.

[bundythenoob]

Dropping a small follow up on my thoughts due to the Live Letter.

The lack of announcements for Tank (and healer) adjustments is concerning. I hope that Square is just saving this stuff to surprise us with? or else I can definitely foresee a large uproar. having gone almost an entire year since SHB dropped with almost no changes to tank jobs could definitely make people feel worse about SQ and might lose faith in them. I just hope they make even some small changes to make each of the tank jobs feel just a little better beyond being balanced at lv 80.

[Quor]

Dropping a small follow up on my thoughts due to the Live Letter.

The lack of announcements for Tank (and healer) adjustments is concerning. I hope that Square is just saving this stuff to surprise us with? or else I can definitely foresee a large uproar. having gone almost an entire year since SHB dropped with almost no changes to tank jobs could definitely make people feel worse about SQ and might lose faith in them. I just hope they make even some small changes to make each of the tank jobs feel just a little better beyond being balanced at lv 80.

Truth be told tanks and healers are pretty bottom of the list right now, minus the ever-whining SCH's anyway, who are still having trouble adjusting to not being OP after three straight versions of it.

That might sound harsh but it's the truth. SCH was way overtuned prior to ShB and was due to be brought into line.

I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of info right now; what we're seeing with the LL is both stuff that's been delayed largely due to the coronavirus as well as been in the pipeline since prior to 5.2. Any recent ideas or criticisms from prior to that won't have had a chance to be addressed due to the backlog. Although to be fair, we probably won't see any kind level shifting for job actions until 6.0 comes out, because SE has shown that they are very unlikely to make that kind of change mid-xpac.