The tawdry female bosses are tiresome, and we could do with more male fanservice.

So many of them are so obscene I'm hesitant to post them here, but you can have a look - https://twitter.com/meteorswimmer/st...50690592116736

Meanwhile, the Godberts and Sephirots are few and rarely have a nice face or a robust view.

You're meowing up the wrong tree buddy. There's a hella of a lot of male dungeon bosses in this game. In the last dungeon we got that male cyclops/bull thing for example. Plenty of male bosses in the Stormblood dungeons as well; from Doma castle to Kugane castle to Temple of the fist.

Don't call a female body obscene just because of the perverted way you look at it. A body, whatever it is bare or not isn't obscene by essence, it is only the way you look at it.

Women goddesses have always been represented as a metaphore and have to be seen that way.

1. I don't think anything from FFXIV would be considered obscene on the forum for FFXIV.
2. Are you saying that men in skimpy stuff wouldn't be obscene while the women are?

Maybe it's more a matter of hiding the pure form and constructively/destructively portraying it via external extensions that appear and portray as a whole in another way, maybe unfaithfully representing or suggesting, or diminishing, but if your problem is more with the base human likeness (or a fantasy race variation/deviation) then I really disagree. I'm guessing you mean like the dungeon character in the 5.3 patch web page. I don't like the feel of the design, I don't support or defend it, but I really attribute no weight of my dislike for it to how much of the character is shown.

I'd definitely appreciate more in the way of male eye candy. Especially the conventionally attractive sort.

Given all of the Crystal Exarch and Estinien (and Emet Selch) art out there, some of it official SE releases, it would seem to me that they are well aware of how appreciated their male characters are.

We do need
https://jegged.com/img/Games/Final-F...0-Brothers.gif
also some males would be great to have some eyecandy males... Lord zenos was amazing as was thancred .....(goth thancred)

also Lord zeno's for husband <3


but it won't happan sadly tbh shows even Japanese shows rarely fan serivce males... its almost always females (because they know statistcly its a bunch of perv boys watching which is why shows like fairy tale lives while something that has it with males doesn't lol

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

Given all of the Crystal Exarch and Estinien (and Emet Selch) art out there, some of it official SE releases, it would seem to me that they are well aware of how appreciated their male characters are.

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But Emet (my love) and the Exarch aren't running around in little thongs and not much else. There definitely is a style that is favored by the devs when it comes to male vs. female design. The guys are rarely skimpy while the females, on numerous occasions, are all about the T&A.

For what it's worth, I'm female, know we have amazing bodies, and have run around in scanty outfits far too often in this game. Figured I'd clarify so I don't get some weird replies of "It's not our fault if you're simply viewing this through perverted eyes" as was alluded to in one of the earlier comments. I don't take issue with skin being shown, however, there is a definite bias in this game as to which gender gets to show it off and which doesn't.

As an aside, I finally got around to finishing the Eden story last night (been on breaks, not that much interest), and I know this had been a conversation when it first launched, but I've gotta say Shiva/Ryne was a bit of bold choice. Ryne is supposed to be a young girl, but suddenly it's cool to give her deep-plunging cleavage and a skin-tight outfit because she's mixed with a primal. And she has that redress move, again, odd choice for a kid/primal, but I guess they figured she was fair game to be sexed up a bit. The skin showing has always been imbalanced between the genders, but that's been the first time it hit me as being a bit inappropriate.

Those are based on our races mythology and they are already censored because they are naked in those.

Oh, you mean the pose is repeated? well, there is no much iddle poses you can make flying that dont look stiff
https://images2.imgbox.com/6b/97/YBOg5ZQ2_o.png
One leg mid raised arms down is classic superhero flying iddle pose
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20110515050717

On the other hand...
Lotta female bosses have very human forms.
Male bosses are a mix between human and monstrous.
If all OP wants is more bosses like that big fish thing from Shisui I say go for it.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

On the other hand...
Lotta female bosses have very human forms.
Male bosses are a mix between human and monstrous.
If all OP wants is more bosses like that big fish thing from Shisui I say go for it.

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That's the nature of the genders
Men: rough
Women: beautiful

This has been the case since humans have been able to express themselves. And it has been the case since FF1, people knew into what kind of art they were getting into when coming into FFXIV.

I think the OP just wants more male bosses in the game that are almost naked.

I am personally getting tired of fighting the same scantily clad young lady boss archetype that this game loves. Floating, right leg up, staff held lazily on one hand, doesn't even use staff to attack because she steps on you instead.

There is a whole thread about this on reddit listing all the bosses that share the same exact model and theme with that new boss coming out.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

That's the nature of the genders
Men: rough
Women: beautiful

This has been the case since humans have been able to express themselves. And it has been the case since FF1, people knew into what kind of art they were getting into when coming into FFXIV.

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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/35...2ebe1a1f71.jpg

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

That's the nature of the genders
Men: rough
Women: beautiful

This has been the case since humans have been able to express themselves. And it has been the case since FF1, people knew into what kind of art they were getting into when coming into FFXIV.

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Sure, but if someone wants more things like
https://i.postimg.cc/CBmY96tk/download.jpg
there's nothing wrong with the request.

I'm all for more male fan service bosses, but the female body isn't obscene.

The boss is just another eye roll moment for me, at least we had Innocence this expansion as monstrous as he is on the inside his outside is Hot! while being modest in design.

The devs can do it, they just don't do it anywhere near as often as the female form.

Indeed. We should get something like this too

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Originally Posted by Roda

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/35...2ebe1a1f71.jpg

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I love Kuja's design but we don't even get someone dressed like Jecht anywhere near as often as females get shown off.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20180101223830

I've always thought the butt naked Byakko was a little weird. I think it's mostly due to his head arm.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pMydRJjLwDc/maxresdefault.jpg

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I love Kuja's design but we don't even get someone dressed like Jecht anywhere near as often as females get shown off.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20180101223830

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Oh yes, I'm in the camp of pls more man butt, but that was more of a rebuttal (heh) to "FF is about rough men and pretty women, u should know better" 'cause I've no idea what universe that opinion crawled out of.

ok coomer.

Ok Roda, you win.
Let's get shirtless male Roegadyn bosses, it doesn't get any more manly than us.
Also, no thongs please, that's female attire, just put us in there shirtless with some pants and accessories.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Ok Roda, you win.
Let's get shirtless male Roegadyn bosses, it doesn't get any more manly than us.
Also, no thongs please, that's female attire, just put us in there shirtless with some pants and accessories.

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No thongs?
Hmm, I mean Idk if gaming is ready for just a loincloth and pure bear ass.

Hmm, a gentlemanly shoulder cloak and some thigh highs... yes..

What's really tawdry and tiresome at this point, PondHollow, is the unmistakable smell of 1950s "cover it up, ladies!" misogyny cloaking itself in a flag of moral decency. It's always disappointing to see that lives on in people like you.

Careful what you wish for, the mystery trial might be you putting down a male fanservice Crystal Exarch.

But somehow I think a lot of people on here would be okay with having to do that.

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Originally Posted by Lasana

What's really tawdry and tiresome at this point, PondHollow, is the unmistakable smell of 1950s "cover it up, ladies!" misogyny cloaking itself in a flag of moral decency. It's always disappointing to see that lives on in people like you.

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Yikes. Jumping straight to claiming OP is a misogynist is impressive considering they're just asking for more male-fan service. We have a plethora of scantily-clad females in game, but very little on the male side. Time to even it up.

And honestly, some of the outfits are rather obscene. Doesn't mean they're calling women's bodies obscene, or saying we can't dress how they want. It's still perfectly fine to enjoy what you're seeing, but let's not pretend they're sporting totally normal looking outfits.

Because I evidently have nothing better to do on a Saturday, here are some of the outfits I'm referring to. Echidna's bum is the clear winner for me.

https://i.imgur.com/gMPAay3.png
https://i.imgur.com/OLbTaj4.png
https://i.imgur.com/dDrDOwj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DCKNmor.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jmK4fBW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DozDNS4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jMmNBsd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dBMU8EY.jpg

I suppose these are all fairly standard fare for female outfits in an MMO, but lets give the guys some love too, eh?

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Yikes. Jumping straight to claiming OP is a misogynist is impressive considering they're just asking for more male-fan service.

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You're right, a misogynist would never use a blindingly obvious dogwhistle like "tawdry female" to start a conversation. Silly me.

Quote:

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And honestly, some of the outfits are rather obscene. Doesn't mean they're calling women's bodies obscene, or saying we can't dress how they want. It's still perfectly fine to enjoy what you're seeing, but let's not pretend they're sporting totally normal looking outfits.

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1. I never said any outfit in this game was "normal looking" (which seems a strange thing to argue in a fantasy world where you can go around looking like a frog if you want). So I don't know who you're responding to. It sounds like you imagined something I said that was easier to refute. I think there's a word for that, straw-something or other.

2. You might as well have just linked me to Dave Chapelle's "well you ARE wearing a *****'s uniform" bit. I wasn't convinced then, and I'm not convinced now.

3. If a woman's body is not obscene, why does it matter if an outfit a woman is wearing is obscene? The answer is it doesn't, unless the speaker actually means something else. They invariably do, and the word itself betrays why. "Obscene" is a word that relies on moral decency, or else it wouldn't work. You would just call it skimpy. But you don't. Instead, you use a word that appeals to some nebulous set of (historically, male-imposed) values that women should adhere to, a word that has been used to police and shame women for their bodies, behavior, and attire for far longer than you or I have been alive. I'm not surprised people still accept it, believe it, and use it - but again, it's very sad to see it lasts even in a space I like to escape to.

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Originally Posted by Roda

No thongs?
Hmm, I mean Idk if gaming is ready for just a loincloth and pure bear ass.

Hmm, a gentlemanly shoulder cloak and some thigh highs... yes..

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Ok I got inspired.
Not my usual body type to draw, or really my preference for fanservice, but practice is good right?

https://i.imgur.com/P90OijSh.jpg

He's a traditional Hellsguard thaumaturge drawing spiritual power from fire and heat. :o

Yeah, I would very much like that. We could use less Cloud of Darkness-like designs (as she's the first one I think of when I think of that kind of style). It's just very generic and repetitive, regardless of anything else.

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Originally Posted by Lasana

You're right, a misogynist would never use a blindingly obvious dogwhistle like "tawdry female" to start a conversation. Silly me.



1. I never said any outfit in this game was "normal looking" (which seems a strange thing to argue in a fantasy world where you can go around looking like a frog if you want). So I don't know who you're responding to. It sounds like you imagined something I said that was easier to refute. I think there's a word for that, straw-something or other.

2. You might as well have just linked me to Dave Chapelle's "well you ARE wearing a *****'s uniform" bit. I wasn't convinced then, and I'm not convinced now.

3. If a woman's body is not obscene, why does it matter if an outfit a woman is wearing is obscene? The answer is it doesn't, unless the speaker actually means something else. They invariably do, and the word itself betrays why. "Obscene" is a word that relies on moral decency, or else it wouldn't work. You would just call it skimpy. But you don't. Instead, you use a word that appeals to some nebulous set of (historically, male-imposed) values that women should adhere to, a word that has been used to police and shame women for their bodies, behavior, and attire for far longer than you or I have been alive. I'm not surprised people still accept it, believe it, and use it - but again, it's very sad to see it lasts even in a space I like to escape to.

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1) This was more for the overall thread. Go back and read some of the earlier comments and people are getting fussy over the use of the word "obscene". As far as what I'm considering "normal", things like what you see on Y'shota, Tataru, Ryne (not the primal), NPCs in town, etc.
2) I don't even know what you're getting at here.
3) An outfit can very well be obscene, hoochie, skimpy, etc without implying anything about the person themselves. Not every insult needs to be taken on a personal level.

Now I don't want to be jumping to any conclusions, but if you're seemingly so offended by someone using the phrase "tawdry females", are you also equally as offended by SE intentionally sexing up many of the bosses we encounter in game? Why do they so often have to be wearing skimpy little outfits? Who is that for? Why aren't the males handled in the same way?

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

1) This was more for the overall thread. Go back and read some of the earlier comments and people are getting fussy over the use of the word "obscene". As far as what I'm considering "normal", things like what you see on Y'shota, Tataru, Ryne (not the primal), NPCs in town, etc.
2) I don't even know what you're getting at here.
3) An outfit can very well be obscene, hoochie, skimpy, etc without implying anything about the person themselves. Not every insult needs to be taken on a personal level.

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1. I'm glad you clarified this is not actually addressed to me. Although I'm a little confused by your example of Y'shtola because her Heavensward and Shadowbringers attire has some obsc...sorry, sexy elements to their design.

2. Maybe before your time. It's a redundant point anyway.

3. Here we go again. "Hoochie" and "skimpy" do not share the same meaning as "obscene." Obscenity requires morality. When you say something is obscene, you are saying it is unaligned with morality and decency. I suspect you view the word as more innocuous in meaning. In my opinion, that's ignorant and shows no understanding of the word or its history. But I'll accept that you aren't arguing otherwise out of malice.

(1/3)

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if you're seemingly so offended by someone using the phrase "tawdry females", are you also equally as offended by SE intentionally sexing up many of the bosses we encounter in game? Why do they so often have to be wearing skimpy little outfits? Who is that for? Why aren't the males handled in the same way?

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Well, "SE intentionally sexes up many of the bosses we encounter in the game" strikes me as a heavily opinionated statement, and I am not sure why you tie my objection to a real person's actual language to it, but I'll play along:

No. In some cases, it's because the design is an homage. Cloud of Darkness, Sophia, and Shiva's appearances are all based on their appearances in other Final Fantasies. Cloud of Darkness looks like she does in XIV because she's based on her appearances in III and Dissidia. Sophia is based on Goddess in FFVI. Shiva is the only one that's been reimagined because she looks different every time, but she's still clearly designed to draw on her past appearances (some of which have skimpier or even no clothing). You could argue that XIV could make them look more "modest" - whatever that means - but they were clearly designed with homage in mind, just as Exdeath and Kefka were. I don't think it's fair to fault XIV for this.

Taking your example of Primal Ryne, she, again, is based on Shiva. Shiva's appearance informs hers. That's not surface level cheesecake, it's a sign they actually sat down and thought about what the WoL's memories would make a Shiva'd!Ryne look like.

So we're back to enemies like Voidsent succubi, Forgiven Venery and her clones, maybe the Ruby Princess and the second boss in the Arboretum Hard mode, and the new one in 5.3. I'm not 100% clear on how often models are reused, but I notice that the Voidsent and the Sin Eater ladies look very similar. I believe there's some thematic intent to that, but I also think it's just easier from a development standpoint to repurpose and embroider on a model you already have. So again, I don't think it's just surface-level cheesecake. The Ruby Princess shows some belly* because she's wearing an outfit that I notice looks a lot like the gear her dungeon drops and which the beefy Male Highlander tank in my group appears to have been grinding all day, because I can see every inch of him from Ul'dah to Kugane. In other words, she's wearing attire that is equal opportunity fashion in-game. I don't see why I should be offended by that.

(* Fun fact: Barbara Eden of I Dream of Jeannie was famously not allowed to show her navel on television because it was considered, surprise surprise...obscene.)

(2/3)

Scathach, Calofisteri and that other one from the Void Ark raids are definitely designed with "creepy sexy" in mind. I guess they could have uglified them for variety, so this might be a point for you? Then again, you're talking to someone that thought Forgall was creepy sexy, too, even if he didn't show a lot of skin.

I don't remember the Arboretum boss well enough besides a thought that she also looked a lot like the Voidsent succubus, and I hated her mechanics. I don't know if there's any lore on her. When I look up her name, I get an article about some Akkadian snake goddess. It could be objectifying, I guess? But then, ancient goddesses tended not to wear a lot. So I have to just take this example with a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It could be an example in your favor, but I honestly just don't remember her that well. She was a "pick up your winnings and leave" boss.

And now 5.3, the character we don't know anything about other than 1) she's a boss and 2) she has a sexy design. I don't feel that's enough to go on. If it turns out she's just like the second boss of the Arboretum, I'll be disappointed and more than a little offended that she's just there for the sexy and nothing else. But I won't know until 5.3. Neither will you, and neither will OP.

So to sum up, no, I am not offended, I do not consider their appearances obscene, and this - once again - has nothing to do with OP choosing to start this conversation with "tawdry females" which is textbook slut-shaming language.

As to "who it's for" - why does it have to be "for" anyone? Is Faye Valentine or Tifa Lockhart's wardrobe "for" people, or is it just how those characters choose to dress? (Similarly, if I dress up in a crop top and cutoffs because it's a hot day and I feel like it, would you say that's "for" someone? Maybe it's just for me. If that thought bothers anyone or they would consider it obscene, well, tough cookies. Like Quina Quen once said: I do what I want. You have problem?)

Third, here's a thinker: does it matter if there are fewer scantily clad males if you're just going to call their attire obscene, too? By the way, is it enough to have the male bosses be shirtless or showing off those quads? Do they also have to meet the classical definition of an attractive male? Hashmal (to pick another homage boss) and Ivan Coeurlfist are shirtless, but do they meet your definition of fanservice? Just food for thought.

(3/3)

I don't agree with OP's wording, but I can see why they might be exasperated. I love the new female boss design, however I see where they and other people could be coming from.

It would be nice of SE could reevaluate the way they design some of their female bosses in the future. I love fanservice as much as the next person, but it gets a bit tiresome when so many female characters/bosses are skimpily designed when male characters/bosses don't really get the same, sexualized treatment. I don't think any of the existing bosses need redesigning.

I just would like some (not all!) female characters to be less sexualized and more practically clothed and some male characters who receive the same treatment as the adforementioned sexualized female characters. I think that's a fair thing to say.

I just hope they don't sex up a lalafell female cause that would look way creepy, we're heading in that direction with what they did to ryne in the Shiva savage fight but I hope the breaks are put on and they turn around.

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Originally Posted by VictorTheed

I just hope they don't sex up a lalafell female cause that would look way creepy, we're heading in that direction with what they did to ryne in the Shiva savage fight but I hope the breaks are put on and they turn around.

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When she took the form of Shiva she was a child no more. Even a lalafel could turn into Byakko, that's just how primals work. She looked nothing like a child whens he became a primal (Shiva).

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Originally Posted by Roda

Ok I got inspired.
Not my usual body type to draw, or really my preference for fanservice, but practice is good right?

https://i.imgur.com/P90OijSh.jpg

He's a traditional Hellsguard thaumaturge drawing spiritual power from fire and heat. :o

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I approve of a manly boss like that one. Good lore around the Firewalker title, Hellsguard Roe, very good design. Next time they want to add a female boss, they should think about a strong male boss like that one. You've all swayed me to your side of things, though I still wanna see the beautiful female bosses from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Lasana

snip(3/3)

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Sorry to snip, but that was a lot to try and copy. Not trying to discredit the post by doing that..just saving space.

As far as the term 'obscene' - you are correct in that I just about never use it in the sense of something being 'morally offensive', but more in the sense of just being indecent, which is also within the definition of the word. It can also be used as 'intended to stimulate sexual appetite or lust; lewd'.

In regards to XIV's boss design paying homage to older games, that is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean the older games or XIV shouldn't get any criticism over their design choices. If Calofisteri was a real person and wanted to roam around in her gold bikini, hey, have at it! But she's not an actual person, and was simply the creation of a game developer. She's just one of many in this game who have barely-there outfits.

MMOs as a whole have a reputation for making female armor far more revealing than their male counterparts. I think XIV tends to handle this better than many, but then NPCs like Echidna come to say hello. Sex sells, attractive characters sell, it's just what it is. I don't think the gaming industry is trying to empower women when they put a nearly-naked boss in the game. And so this is why I'm asking "who is it for"? They just know what their players like and what works.

To come back around to the "tawdry females" bit - if you can at least consider my comment above, don't have to agree with it but at least see where I'm coming from, 'tawdry females' is somewhat accurate in this sense. Tossing in a bunch of mostly-naked chicks is just a cheap and easy thing to do. I mean, I like some of their designs, but it's still a very basic MMO move. I can't speak for OP as far as how exactly he intended that description, but that's my take on it.

As far as your last point, I personally don't need my guys to be all hooched up, but I'm sure plenty of others wouldn't mind. I might take Aymeric in a swimsuit or something. :P If the time comes that I see some male bosses sporting g-strings and bending over to attack, or showing off massive bulges in a prominent way, kudos to SE!. And yes, I'd definitely lump that into the "obscene" category. But again, we have slightly ideas as to how the word is used.

I just want to see more monstrous female bosses... like Twintania, Tioman, Dotoli Ciloc (Ixali Beastman) and Rukshs Dheem (Queen). It's silly that male bosses can be anything they want to be (but not skimpily dressed), but female bosses are mostly humanoid.

We have plenty if variety when it comes the female form with bosses. Just because a few are sexy doesn't mean they are bad.

But I will agree with more male bosses like Vauthry, I guess if you find them lacking. :/