Shared Classes Are Not Failures (ie SCH/SMN)

As the title suggests, I first would like to say that Scholar and Summoner are a success. I’m tired of pretending it’s not. Because the devs felt like it was some kind of failure and difficult to balance, the community as a whole seemed to have let HORIZONTAL growth go by the way side. Instead we can individually level almost 20 Jobs. Job Stones had such a cool vision back when I was a 1.0 player and they just dropped it because they could not make ability sharing work well between Scholar and Summoner. It's too stifling on design and I completely get that.

All jobs should share a base class with another job, SOLELY for exp purposes. It does not mean they necessarily share the same role, or abilities. This is a means to consolidate level progression, and give players flexible options when it comes to end game metas. Only have Arcanist at 80? That’s cool because I can choose to Heal or DPS. Couldn’t get into that group because I only leveled Pugilist, and Monk isn’t optimal for this raid, that’s cool because I can become a Dancer, which is.

I don’t want to level 20 different jobs to 80. It takes an obnoxious amount of effort to do it especially as more jobs get added. At first it was fun trying to max all my jobs, then I said okay only Healers and Ranged. Then in Shadowbringers I did one of each role, which is actually nice to have, but it’s so easy to get burnt out on the leveling grind- especially if it’s going to take getting that many jobs to max. At the end of the day, it's way too much. I want to be able to enjoy trying out every job at their max capacity, but level grinding 20 different jobs is a pain in the rear. And while I'm not advocating for increased exp or level skips that bring you to 80, I am advocating for reducing the amount of Jobs to level as to also revive the class system. The reality is that the jobs that I have leveled now, took YEARS, almost a decade, of playing this game to achieve. That's not palatable to a new player what so ever. Leveling for Crafting and Gathering has been streamlined by the addition of the Firmament. Because of this, I am FINALLY taking the time to level these Disciplines, whereas I missed out on them before. Leveling Disciplines of War and Magic need streamlining as well.

BIG EDIT - I apologize for less structure in my original post. Maybe I was not very clear with my message, but I also needed to discuss this with other people to better understand my own thoughts. Thank you to those who bring up valid points of discussion even if you disagree. Trolls and those who do not contribute to discussion will be ignored from here out, and I will be using the report button liberally.

This is what I’m proposing as a shared class structure. If you have better ideas about it, even if you don't care for this kind of system, I'd be happy to hear where you choose to pair expansion jobs with a class.

Gladiator - Paladin & Dark Knight
Why did I group these together?
-Gladiator gets 2 Tank Jobs, because it is the "primary" tank.
-Paladin and Dark Knight are polar opposites and been so since FFIV's Cecil famously changing jobs.
-Paladin and Dark Knight do not have the same tanking style, allowing for specialization.

Marauder - Warrior & Machinist
Why did I group these together?
-The Marauder's guild features gun users among the Yellow Jackets, known as Musketeers.
-Marauder can be DPS or Tank, depending on your needs.
-Warrior and Machinist are heavier damage dealers among their role categories.

Lancer - Dragoon & Gunbreaker
Why did I group these together?
-The Gunbreaker quest already starts very close to the Lancer's guild.
-Gunbreaker is already a more heavy damage Tank.
-If Gunbreaker were a DPS job, it would probably wear Maiming Gear.

Pugilist - Monk & Dancer
Why did I group these together?
-In 1.0, Pugilist could initially use Chakrams for ranged attacks.
-Many of us thought Lyse would be a Dancer with her fluid movements, but she's a Monk.
-One could pair Samurai here, but I'm intentionally avoiding jobs that are functionally similar in a pairing.

Archer - Bard or Samurai
Why did I group these together?
-Most players according to a poll would prefer Bard to be a more supportive job.
-Archery is a common skill for Samurai, and not just according to FFXI.
-One could pair Dancer here, but I'm intentionally avoiding jobs that are functionally similar in a pairing.

Rogue - Ninja & Red Mage
Why did I group these together?
-Ninja's rotation is about fighting at melee range using jutsu at range.
-Red Mage's rotation is opposite, fighting at range and entering melee.
-This wasn't an easy decision to pair, but I wouldn't want to give RDM to Conjurer or Thaumaturge.

Conjurer - White Mage & Geomancer
Why did I group these together?
-Both (If Geomancer is the new healer) have different ways of playing the role, like PLD and DRK.
-White Mage has gone further from its "roots" as a nature mage, and now uses light magic.
-We heavily anticipate Geomancer as a new job. Conjurer as a nature class, matches Geomancer.

Thaumaturge - Black Mage & Astrologian
Why did I group these together?
-Thaumaturgy is an introspective art. Similar to reading cards.
-Y'Shtola and Urianger both became Black Mage and Astrologian as their darkworld counterparts.
-Black Mage is to White Mage as Astrologian is to Geomancer.

Arcanist - Summoner & Scholar
This Is The Example.
-Does not need explination.

No Class or Animist - Blue Mage & Beast Master
Why did I group these together?
-Blue Mage can do a lot, but it cannot become a Physical Ranged DPS, which is the gap not filled.
-Beastmaster will clearly be the new job, some in game hints point towards this.
-Blue Mage and Beastmaster have always been complimentary.

How Does This Impact New Players And Existing Players
For existing players, who have unlocked the expansion job, the lower job will be brought up to the higher job's level. Like if my Machinist were 80 but my Marauder/Warrior was 50, after consolidation I would be an 80 Marauder that can either become Warrior or Machinist.

For new players who unlock an expansion job, like Dark Knight, the job will be automatically tied to Gladiator's level. If they have not played Gladiator at all, then Dark Knight will also be level 1.

PROS & CONS
What are the benefits of consolidation?
-Less level grinding for those who do not have time to grind so much
-Class selection for new players is more meaningful.
-More opportunity for players to queue for duty finder faster under a different role.
-Cleaning up arbitrary level gates in earlier content, that made sense back then but does not now.
-Having 2 specialty jobs under 1 class at max level allows the developers to focus a tiny bit less on homogenizing between roles.

What are the drawbacks?
-Less level grinding for those who like level grinding.
Objection:If you like grinding that much, you can always start new character.
-More work for developers to re-edit old content.
Objection:The developers are always improving the game, its just part of their processes.
-I feel that it treads on class lore.
Objection:Class lore and job lore are already essentially separate entities. Doing this won't impact lore. It only improves systems.
-Existing players who benefit consolidation, or players who don't touch the other job while leveling might not know how to do their job right!
Objeciton: Mogstation currently sells level skip and content skips. Scholars can play Summoner and vice versa. Players will learn and adapt. Anyone can play bad or make mistakes on a job they have played often. Additionally, many players may take an extended break from the game yet find a job they have maxed to be reworked or need to remember how to play it. Babying others is not your job.

That's a lot of nonsense for something that is just for "I want to level 2 jobs at the same time."

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

That's a lot of nonsense for something that is just for "I want to level 2 jobs at the same time."

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I’m stating a case, not begging for what I want.

If you don’t have anything important to say, kindly leave.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

That's a lot of nonsense for something that is just for "I want to level 2 jobs at the same time."

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Smn and sch is indeed a success after they fixed it back in stormblood. The rest of the ideas though are not going to be succesful.

The reason Smn and Sch work is cause they are specializations of their main class , they are a different version of the same flavor of job with one getting abilities for summoning while the other focusing more on healing , not only that since their lore talks about the same art , arcanima , it means that some stuff intermingle , for example we learn from summoner that we use the pure essence of a primal to summon and that it is not conscious , yet the summons of scholar show consciousness , they remember their old master and they stopped us from killing them , they can even guide us to stuff. Yet the way summoner and scholar summon stuff is the same one arcanist uses .

The other jobs dont have such kind of bond , so it would literally be completely pointless and a major plothole . What common ground does a guy who blasts other with dark arts using their own aether , with someone that uses the constellations coresponding to the twelve in order to heal and put out beneficial effects have.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

I’m stating a case, not begging for what I want.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

You know what? I don’t want to level 20 different jobs to 80.

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You beg to differ with yourself.

Interesting because that’s where I said something I don’t want. But if you insist on being a troll.

To reference your signature, I’m trying to petition for an expanded option at the behest of others.

It’s not about me. It’s about every player’s experience. Are you going to argue that having 20 individual jobs is worthwhile
Or did you come to this thread to be an asshole. If it’s the later then see your self out, thank you.

I would say they have a lot in common. Weird how Y’stola and Urianger became BLM and AST as darkworld counterparts. They are both also introspective arts. Warriors and Machinists may not have a lot in common, but there are those who practice with guns in the Marauders guild.

Probably the biggest stretch for commonality is Rogue to Red Mage.

But this isn’t really about lore either. The job lores easily stand independent of class lores. It’s about hijacking the old class system to breath life into horizontal growth.

The Gladiator NPC isn’t going to tell you to go to Ishgard and become a Dark Knight like she does with Paladin. The option, shared by EXP would simply be there when you get there.

I'm saying your suggestion is pointless except as a way to level the 20 jobs faster which you yourself were very clear about. Your entire post was quite explicit that it was entirely about being able to level multiple jobs simultaneously. Everything about your suggestion is just window dressing to that. At least SMN and SCH are actually linked in some way other than via xp.

This is really the last response I’m going to entertain with you. I’m a player of this game and I’d consider my self an investor at this point. I have as much a right for my voice to be heard on these forums as well. There are people out there who probably feel the same way as I do about it. All the more reason for me to voice my concern. So for the 3rd and final time, kindly buzz off.

I didn't say you weren't allowed to state your position or opinion. I'm telling you what my opinion of your suggestion is. You even asked people to do this in your original post. I suppose you only wanted/expected people to agree with you, but things don't always work out that way.

I think your suggestion is bad. No, you should not be able to level up more than one job at the same time. The only reason SMN/SCH can do this is because of the original planned design which they quickly realized doesn't work well in practice. It does not need to be tacked onto other jobs that have nothing whatsoever in common with each other.

i want to start an argument on a public forum where only my point of view is valid! lol

On paper I would love the ability to level one class and get two jobs, one could argue summoner/scholar in it's heyday was superior to other jobs due to that nature.

That being said in practice it causes too much issues (having them linked the way in the OP doesn't make sense either, because while they've changed a bunch of things on summoner and scholar the base kit is still "similar" and shares some things... the other ones wouldn't).

The reason why the devs also didn't want to ever do this again is because it caused way too many balancing issues... and we already have enough lore problems without making it worse by linking things that aren't connected (even if you got the lore right were back to square one of them having balancing issues).

“I disagree, and here’s why...”. That’s what you would have said if you came to disagree.
You didn’t initially come to say that you came to scoff are the idea.

The thread is about how it’s not a failure in the aspect of shared exp and we should readdress horizontal growth.
So saying the devs couldn’t execute it right doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny because having Scholar and Summoner grow together is practical and efficient, even if they are two explicitly independent jobs with no shared skills.

This literally doesn’t tread on lore. Nor do jobs have to share any abilities at all. Scholar and Summoner share like 2 at this point, and that can even be revised..

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i want to start an argument on a public forum where only my point of view is valid! lol

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Hurhurhur I want to comment on a thread without contributing meaningful discussion to the topic.

I actually like the idea.

Its equally as pointless to magically unlock RDM and be level 50, as it would be to couple it with an existing class.

I personally would like to see new jobs start at level 1, or start at max level. (The level you unlock the job as. For example. if you're 50 unlocking a new job, its now 50. Or if you're 80 its now 80.)

Its so absolutely inconsistent and pointless for 3.0 to start at 30, 4.0 to start at 50, and 5.0 to start at 60. Like that is completely nonsense foolishness.

Also I 100% agree that if people post on the forums they should give logical reason for their response.

/no 10char, is technically against the ToS for the forums, its just unfortunate Square-Enix doesnt delete comments more regularly.


The people who disagreed with you so far, have given 0 logic in their reasoning. They are only fishing for likes and just overall rude for no reason except... well, to fish for likes. Cause like the song goes, "its cool to hate."

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

“I disagree, and here’s why...”. That’s what you would have said if you came to disagree.
You didn’t initially come to say that you came to scoff are the idea..

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Uh, I said it was nonsense. I'm not sure how much more clear I could be that I was disagreeing with it. Also, I thought you were done responding to me?

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The people who disagreed with you so far, have given 0 logic in their reasoning. They are only fishing for likes and just overall rude for no reason except... well, to fish for likes. Cause like the song goes, "its cool to hate."

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Yes, thank you for pointing this out. It’s very frustrating to deal with. I used to be a frequent poster here years ago, and I’m glad that at least 1 of my suggestions did make it in at 2.0. (I had a thread about familiars and we got minions.). I do not do meaningless fluff. In a forum, only saying you disagree or calling an idea nonsense without backing up your rationale is laziness and borderline trolling.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

I didn't say you weren't allowed to state your position or opinion. I'm telling you what my opinion of your suggestion is. You even asked people to do this in your original post. I suppose you only wanted/expected people to agree with you, but things don't always work out that way.

I think your suggestion is bad. No, you should not be able to level up more than one job at the same time. The only reason SMN/SCH can do this is because of the original planned design which they quickly realized doesn't work well in practice. It does not need to be tacked onto other jobs that have nothing whatsoever in common with each other.

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I'm going to give you the opportunity to respond with some logic and sense.

Right now, the way it is. And what I gathered from this persons post has nothing to do with "wanting to level 2 jobs at once."

What I gathered, was exactly how the game currently exists, but making a bit more sense of it.

That is....

AST magically being level 30 when you unlock it. Instead of the same level as say RDM and SAM, or even GNB and DNC.

But they dont.

For no reason.

To me, now THAT is nonsense.

What this person seems to suggest, is that there is a bit of consistency.

Since SMN and SCH are the only shared jobs, and they have this mess of other jobs magically unlocking at different levels, he came up with a very good idea, to make it all streamlined. The new jobs for each expansion piggy backing off of base classes.

This gives the choice you make at the start a whole lot more meaning, instead of, "oh look you're a class that will become completely obsolete at level 30 for no reason except we were too lazy to write in better lore, or change the system."

So, with keeping that in mind.

Please tell me, how the current system is not nonsense, and why its better than the proposed idea? Because literally you're already in a way leveling 2 jobs at once, when you do the Main story quest, you unlock new jobs based on that level. So yes, yes you are leveling 2 jobs at once..... at completely random levels mind you. AST 30, SAM 50, DNC 60.

Its just your second one gets stuck at a random level along the way. For absolutely no reason.


So ...
To break it down for you even further.

-Idea:
Streamline all classes and jobs to make more sense. Specialty jobs (new expansion jobs) piggy back off of existing base classes.

-Current system:
Unlock jobs at random inconsistent levels based off the expansion with no lore for the reasoning behind it.
AST, MCH, DRK level 30
RDM, SAM level 50
GNB, DNC level 60.
With future jobs randomly unlocking at even new pointless random levels.

-Your reasoning:
(What I would consider a response from someone who disagrees, and the points they would hit in their response.)

-Why should the current system stay in place. (Jobs unlocking at increasing levels per expansion.)
-Why is the current system not complete nonsense, and horribly inconsistent. Especially with the mindset of a brand new player starting at any given expansion.
-Why do you think inconsistency is good.
-Why do you think it should not be coherent.
-Why do you think there should be no meaning, even a system based meaning such as this, behind base classes, especially when something such as this would actually give impact to base classes without changing a single thing?
-Edit: And why is this idea, "bad" or any different from Square-Enix throwing Exp and levels at crafting and gathering classes, and selling level skip potions in the mogstation?

Yes, you nailed exactly what I’m trying to say.

I know Geomancer is a highly requested Job. And exsists in Yanxian lore where earth, wind, and water can form barriers.

Some people even express that White Mage has gone too far away from its Conjurer “roots” as a nature mage.

Geomancer is explicitly a nature mage, and would make total sense to branch off Conjurer.

It’s elementary really. It’s knocking out like 3 birds with 1 stone-

-It revives the obsolete class system
-It streamlines arbitrary unlocked level gates
-It grants more casual players flexibility in what to play, especially in late game raiding

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

Yes, you nailed exactly what I’m trying to say.

I know Geomancer is a highly requested Job. And exsists in Yanxian lore where earth, wind, and water can form barriers.

Some people even express that White Mage has gone too far away from its Conjurer “roots” as a nature mage.

Geomancer is explicitly a nature mage, and would make total sense to branch off Conjurer.

It’s elementary really. It’s knocking out like 3 birds with 1 stone-

-It revives the obsolete class system
-It streamlines arbitrary unlocked level gates
-It grants more casual players flexibility in what to play, especially in late game raiding

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Because, bringing logic to the forums is apparently taboo.

Its much more popular to be rude, say pointless things, and just post an insulting meme or type no /10char.

Oh.. and saying something off topic. Thats a huge "like" magnet. If someone can say nothing at all, or derail the thread, thats like magic.

I have no idea why.


Again, I used my brain, and saw exactly what you were trying to say. You linked every expansion job to a base job. Anyone with half a brain would have caught on. It had nothing to do with trying to level 2 jobs at once.

Which honestly with the changes to crafting and gathering I dont get how people can get upset with someone even suggesting that. Which you werent even doing that anyway. I mean seriously. You linked only expansion jobs to base classes, then said they would share Exp. nothing else. I took not even 3 seconds to realize each of those jobs dont start at level 1, and thought about how they start at random levels, and was like "this is actually logical 100%."

Then I read a few of the responses, and how people said you were full of nonsense, and I was like... yup, typical FFXIV forum responses. You made absolute sense, and cleaned up the game without changing a SINGLE thing lore, or system wise. You just breathed some sense into it. You actually made more sense in the game, and people said it was ridiculous. Like I wish I could say I was surprised , but I'm not.

Ya know it’s sad that it’s like that. I have tons of ideas that I just write down on my phone, and I haven’t voiced them in years here because there always this crowd of naysayers that derail the thread before I can generate a discussion. And it’s not like there’s ever really a dev response where they say “oh that’s something we’re considering too.” It’s always the silent surprises with this dev team and they really need to cut that shit, because player input is what saved this game from oblivion. I have plans to update my Big Blue Feedback Thread, and I’ve also got a really hot concept for a Summoner rework that doesn’t compromise what Summoner is. I try to read what people are wanting out of this game and respond accordingly. It’s really not about me alone, ya know?

What’s even worse about Dark Knight, Machinist, and Astrologian being unlocked at level 30, is that they are gated behind Heavensward, while Red Mage, Samurai, Gunbreaker, and Dancer all unlock at 50+ without being locked behind a physical barrier. They are all available in ARR areas.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

What’s even worse about Dark Knight, Machinist, and Astrologian being unlocked at level 30, is that they are gated behind Heavensward, while Red Mage, Samurai, Gunbreaker, and Dancer all unlock at 50+ without being locked behind a physical barrier. They are all available in ARR areas.

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I honestly think sometimes some people post what they want and desire without thinking of the realities needed to create what they want (not to mention whether or not that's healthy for the game as a whole). Will come back to this in a bit... because we have two quick detours to make before looping back to this point.

When heavensward was created there was a reason why the jobs were gated at 30 versus starting them at 50 and it was due to for two reasons. The first was to create extra things to do, you'd have more people running fates and leveling dungeons to get those jobs up to make them playable for heavensward and the second reason it helped them understand their job better. The second reason was to help keep people from jumping into existing content new content with the new jobs without playing them to some degree, which is a precedent that exists with the newer jobs (sure there is a less of a level gap but the xp is a lot less needed to get from thirty to fifty and you have even more options to level once you hit fifty).

Also, moving those in charge of the jobs from heavensward to other areas doesn't make sense for lore or any of the intertwining stories that come out of it and at the time you get there you already can unlock the jobs. (Also if you're playing the game and are level sixty and haven't gotten ishgard you've either bought a job potion or you're playing the game very very differently than most do).

The instances created for the heavensward jobs alone currently don't make sense (at least for machinst or astrologian) because the job no longer works that way at all and they never wasted time to redo the instances. If they wasted time to recode things (get the jobs to adjusted to fifty once you get to heavensward) they would have to redo the instances.... which would cause a content situation we have for this expansion (yes I understand covid has caused a lot of delays, even without covid though the content were getting is completely different and "less" than other expansions because of there ARR rework.... and that was half needed for overall complaints they got from both new players and existing players).

Which than loops back to the point I made. Trying to lump the classes (because that's what they are based at on a coding level) into "combinable" jobs so you can level two jobs at once, like summoner/scholar... would take a massive re-work (whether or not they adjust the heavensward ones being started at fifty or not) which would mean allocating resources from somewhere else just to do that.

The fix to ARR was a necessary evil, most people, even if they are complaining about the "lack of content" at least get where the resources went to and why it had to happen. Trying to get folks to get on board another similar system for the next expansion just to combine jobs more than likely wouldn't.

Yeah... no. This is a pretty bad idea. If it had been "let's try to expand each class to have two jobs, and maybe make up classes for the only jobs, which then could have a branching path" that still would have been bad. But "let's combine jobs regardless of shared weapon, thematics, or anything else with only the loosest of justifications"? I'm good. Summoner and Scholar, if anything, should be split apart (and hopefully they're working that out if it can be done) and share less with each other. They have very unique themes and such going for them and could stand to split more with less mechanical commonality.

In comparison to them though almost none of these jobs have anything in common. Mechanically they are all over the place, their weapons range from "kind of in the same ballpark (Paladin/Dark Knight)" to "they have zero overlap" (which is most of them). Thematically these jobs are all very different from the ones you're trying to pair them with, and even without seeing it Geomancer is an entirely separate job from White Mage, the two have next to no common ground in terms of themes. It's just... a mess. For no real reason either. It doesn't add any sort of positive gain except spending less time leveling things, but that's not really a good justification. You could just as easily solve that with some sort of bonus exp system where you get EXP for completing things you can spend on any class. But really, you should be playing the job you're leveling, so it's hardly surprising they don't do that.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Yeah... no. This is a pretty bad idea. If it had been "let's try to expand each class to have two jobs, and maybe make up classes for the only jobs, which then could have a branching path" that still would have been bad. But "let's combine jobs regardless of shared weapon, thematics, or anything else with only the loosest of justifications"? I'm good. Summoner and Scholar, if anything, should be split apart (and hopefully they're working that out if it can be done) and share less with each other. They have very unique themes and such going for them and could stand to split more with less mechanical commonality.

In comparison to them though almost none of these jobs have anything in common. Mechanically they are all over the place, their weapons range from "kind of in the same ballpark (Paladin/Dark Knight)" to "they have zero overlap" (which is most of them). Thematically these jobs are all very different from the ones you're trying to pair them with, and even without seeing it Geomancer is an entirely separate job from White Mage, the two have next to no common ground in terms of themes. It's just... a mess. For no real reason either. It doesn't add any sort of positive gain except spending less time leveling things, but that's not really a good justification. You could just as easily solve that with some sort of bonus exp system where you get EXP for completing things you can spend on any class. But really, you should be playing the job you're leveling, so it's hardly surprising they don't do that.

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the day they split smn and sch is the day they both die.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

Ya know it’s sad that it’s like that. I have tons of ideas that I just write down on my phone, and I haven’t voiced them in years here because there always this crowd of naysayers that derail the thread before I can generate a discussion. And it’s not like there’s ever really a dev response where they say “oh that’s something we’re considering too.” It’s always the silent surprises with this dev team and they really need to cut that shit, because player input is what saved this game from oblivion. I have plans to update my Big Blue Feedback Thread, and I’ve also got a really hot concept for a Summoner rework that doesn’t compromise what Summoner is. I try to read what people are wanting out of this game and respond accordingly. It’s really not about me alone, ya know?

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if they took every silly fan idea to heart this game would be a complete mess.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

if they took every silly fan idea to heart this game would be a complete mess.

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Interesting because in some regards, this game is a complete mess, which is why they have to go back and clean up older expansions. I’m suggesting a concept that cleans up something that’s all over the place.

Next time you post, try to contribute to the topic whether you are for or against, or please leave the thread.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Yeah... no. This is a pretty bad idea. If it had been "let's try to expand each class to have two jobs, and maybe make up classes for the only jobs, which then could have a branching path" that still would have been bad. But "let's combine jobs regardless of shared weapon, thematics, or anything else with only the loosest of justifications"? I'm good. Summoner and Scholar, if anything, should be split apart (and hopefully they're working that out if it can be done) and share less with each other. They have very unique themes and such going for them and could stand to split more with less mechanical commonality.

In comparison to them though almost none of these jobs have anything in common. Mechanically they are all over the place, their weapons range from "kind of in the same ballpark (Paladin/Dark Knight)" to "they have zero overlap" (which is most of them). Thematically these jobs are all very different from the ones you're trying to pair them with, and even without seeing it Geomancer is an entirely separate job from White Mage, the two have next to no common ground in terms of themes. It's just... a mess. For no real reason either. It doesn't add any sort of positive gain except spending less time leveling things, but that's not really a good justification. You could just as easily solve that with some sort of bonus exp system where you get EXP for completing things you can spend on any class. But really, you should be playing the job you're leveling, so it's hardly surprising they don't do that.

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We do not need any justifications to clean up a system that’s all over the place. Nothing would be shared but exp. you still have the same jobs, and the same kits. You only have the added benefit of a 2 for 1. The game overall has the benefit of cleaning up level gates that were pragmatic at the launch of these jobs, but now redundant 2 expansions later.

I can understand the desire to separate Summoner and Scholor, but the fact of the matter is that they don’t need to share any abilities at all. Having them shared in a class is practical and it’s usually my go to class to level in a new expac because of the flexibility. I wish I could say the same for other jobs.

And by the contrary, the point is for them to have less in common, but not so less as grouping something like Paladin and Astrologian.

The whole idea came to me after reading some other players feedback about how Jobs are being homogenized because they want every job to have a spot in end game despite a meta forming around content no matter what. A system like this gives players more options of what they have isn’t meta. If they allow for this kind of flexibility they have less need to homogenize everything.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

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Don’t see why that would be the case. It’s sorely needed. Honestly they shouldn’t have been paired to begin with, it’s just hurting the jobs.

[QUOTE=AceofRains;5383528]Snip./QUOTE]

As I said, if you are that eager to do it just make it a generic system. But, again, the reason they don’t want to do that is because you’re able to run a job without any experience.

That you personally enjoy the system isn’t a good reason to expand it. And so far, as I said you could accomplish all the “boons” of that system with a generic bonus EXP system without pointlessly tying jobs together.

Almost all of your job pairings make no sense though. Like Black Mage and Astrologian. Not even getting into what you don’t know about tarot (which is clearly a lot) Astro doesn’t have any meaningful ties to Thaumaturge.

As far as this working as a system to prevent homogenization it doesn’t do anything of the sort. Having more options doesn’t mean each option is allowed to be less balanced.

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Originally Posted by Wiccan026

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So let me see if I understand you as to not misrepresent what you’re saying.

-I’m stating a desire with out thinking about the consequences or requisite effort.

Disagree. I’m brining this up now, so they devs will see it and have time to consider it going forward. A consolidation like this should happen at the start of an expansion. Not some arbitrary point during the patch cycle. I understand COVID-19 has brought a lot of delay and issue to the team. I’m not asking for overnight solutions, I’m asking for a serious discussion on the topic.

—At the time, gating jobs at certain levels at the release of an expansion made sense.

I agree. That was then, this is now.

-Moving Job NPCs to new areas doesn’t make sense.

I agree. I did t mean to imply they should be moved at all. What’s weird is You can unlock ones that are higher levels now, without having to get inside Ishgard. It’s reasonable for there to be some kind of adjustment to that. There is obviously work to be done adjusting quests as well. It’s a part of the clean up process.

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Which than loops back to the point I made. Trying to lump the classes (because that's what they are based at on a coding level) into "combinable" jobs so you can level two jobs at once, like summoner/scholar... would take a massive re-work (whether or not they adjust the heavensward ones being started at fifty or not) which would mean allocating resources from somewhere else just to do that.

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Attaching existing expansion jobs to existing classes just to share the experiance points for horizontal growth does not require some major coding effort or rework of the jobs. They rework jobs basically every expansion so, even that doesn’t hold up as an excuse.

Reworking old content isn’t a necessary evil. It’s just necessary for a good game. When a player base becomes so top heavy, developers old decisions can become alienating to new players. It’s essential that they rectify things like this.

I would like to thank you for a well put response. While in some places I kind of disagree with you, overall being able to overcome objections is what’s important in a discussion.

[QUOTE=MirronTulaxia;5383581]Don’t see why that would be the case. It’s sorely needed. Honestly they shouldn’t have been paired to begin with, it’s just hurting the jobs.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

Snip./QUOTE]

As I said, if you are that eager to do it just make it a generic system. But, again, the reason they don’t want to do that is because you’re able to run a job without any experience.

That you personally enjoy the system isn’t a good reason to expand it. And so far, as I said you could accomplish all the “boons” of that system with a generic bonus EXP system without pointlessly tying jobs together.

Almost all of your job pairings make no sense though. Like Black Mage and Astrologian. Not even getting into what you don’t know about tarot (which is clearly a lot) Astro doesn’t have any meaningful ties to Thaumaturge.

As far as this working as a system to prevent homogenization it doesn’t do anything of the sort. Having more options doesn’t mean each option is allowed to be less balanced.

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Oh idk how about
1) current Summoners is begging to get aetherflow back because without it his whole rotation is more rigid than it was
2) current scholars are begging to get back all the dps skills they lost since its now embedded on their identity and dont have any dps skills aside from a counterfeit holy
3) Its the only 2 classes were instead of being just an upgrade to your class youre actually a specialist with 2 paths to choose. something that alot of people love about them
4) their whole magic system is based on the arcanist system which is literally everywhere in the game so making a new one would stick out like a sore thumb
5) All the problems were fixed back in stormblood , with the removal of the attribute point system and traits to remove problems in balancing

So the moment you try to remove them you just created a massive plothole but also removed alot of identity that appeals to alot of players , JUST because some of you dont bother to actually see what actually is and isnt problematic currently and instead echo problems that are already gone and burried.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

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So what about level skip potions you can purchase on the mogstation. You run a job then without a lot of experience as well. That not an excuse at all. Most people will try out a job and try to optimize their hotbars before they just jump into a raid or dungeon. Like are you seriously afraid of a Summoner who only played Scholar trying to learn his job on a dungeon run? They’re going to figure it out, and be on their merry way. Guess what? That was me and it’s easy to learn! Learning your rotation if you normally play the game is not complicated.

Yes, this is a means to undo homogenization. You still balance jobs without having them all do the same thing. What they’re afraid of is a player being alienated because the job they leveled isn’t flavor of the month. You can’t alienate someone’s job if they all do the same thing. And so, if a player gets a 2 in 1 deal on a class, now they are less likely to be excluded and they can focus on a little bit of diversity. Now that there’s near 20 jobs and a rising level cap, there is just an exhausting amount of leveling to be done for people who want to try out every job at max capacity. A lot of players, my self included got older, got more responsibilities and just do not have the time to commit to it. I have wanted to play Warrior my self, but it’s been stuck at 50 because just the idea of going through all that leveling just for that one job only to find out it’s basically been homogenized to other tanks already mentally exhausts me. I’m not going to buy a level skip for that, I have already done so for Monk and Samurai, and I STILL haven’t had the time to level those to 80.

Btw, Tarot is introspective. Stop trying to be a know-it-all.

Astrology as in FFXIV might draw rather upon the heavenly stars, but entertain the thought... If you really had to pair Astrologian with one of the existing classes, where would you put it? Gladiator? Marauder? Lancer? Archer? Pugilist? Conjurer???

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

Interesting because in some regards, this game is a complete mess, which is why they have to go back and clean up older expansions. I’m suggesting a concept that cleans up something that’s all over the place.

Next time you post, try to contribute to the topic whether you are for or against, or please leave the thread.

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uh that's your opinion and you don't get to tell me what to do.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

So let me see if I understand you as to not misrepresent what you’re saying.

-I’m stating a desire with out thinking about the consequences or requisite effort.

Disagree. I’m brining this up now, so they devs will see it and have time to consider it going forward. A consolidation like this should happen at the start of an expansion. Not some arbitrary point during the patch cycle. I understand COVID-19 has brought a lot of delay and issue to the team. I’m not asking for overnight solutions, I’m asking for a serious discussion on the topic.

—At the time, gating jobs at certain levels at the release of an expansion made sense.

I agree. That was then, this is now.

-Moving Job NPCs to new areas doesn’t make sense.

I agree. I did t mean to imply they should be moved at all. What’s weird is You can unlock ones that are higher levels now, without having to get inside Ishgard. It’s reasonable for there to be some kind of adjustment to that. There is obviously work to be done adjusting quests as well. It’s a part of the clean up process.



Attaching existing expansion jobs to existing classes just to share the experiance points for horizontal growth does not require some major coding effort or rework of the jobs. They rework jobs basically every expansion so, even that doesn’t hold up as an excuse.

Reworking old content isn’t a necessary evil. It’s just necessary for a good game. When a player base becomes so top heavy, developers old decisions can become alienating to new players. It’s essential that they rectify things like this.

I would like to thank you for a well put response. While in some places I kind of disagree with you, overall being able to overcome objections is what’s important in a discussion.

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Do you code for a living? Do you know how badly the base code is for this game, their running off of shoots of 1.0 which is why at the end of the day "we don't get to have nice things". If you're asking for older classes/jobs... which you did in your OP... than they have to readjust the coding for that because gladiator equals paladin and for anything else to get added to it you have to work it in to that base class (or just abolish the thing to begin with.. but again major rework). Also, the whole point of this streamline was to adjust it so they don't have to retweak everything for the next expansion (Shadowbringers was the first major over haul of the whole system, the previous ones just added and tweaked a few things.. this was definitely a overhaul and other than healing, if their even considering that, I don't think they intend to overhaul the rest of the system).

Like I said previously though, trying to give access to the jobs outside of Ishgard don't make sense not just for lore (which is already gutted enough at this point) but because at the end of the day you still have to go back and rework it so that it can happen... it's not just put character here to let you do things. You are right it may seem weird that you can be the other jobs, although other than samurai and red mage again if you're unlocking the other jobs and haven't gotten to Ishgard you're playing the gave very weirdly.

I've played several games like this and yes they always try to rework things to make things easier to catch up, they've done that since the beginning of Heavensward.... what were talking about is completely different. They went back and slashed out quests that don't matter (and their not returning them into side quests to go back and do for later) and it's because this was filler stuff that didn't need to be done, in order to stream line.... and while that may seem like an easy task it really isn't and this rework is the major reason why were getting so little content this expansion.... they've mentioned this.

Leveling isn't that hard in this game, it can be tedious but than again most aspects of MMO's get that way. It's the nature of the beast.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

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Something kind of weird going on here. But honestly none of those are terribly good reasons barring maybe the 4th, and that can be solved in other ways. It won't happen, but again it's a problem that plagues the jobs from inception onward.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

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1. Those skip potions don't let you hit end game content without having done anything with the job.
2. Yes, you can run a job without a lot of experience. It's rather difficult to get to 80 without any experience as the job, though I suppose depending on how you view Pixie quests you could pull it off. This plan just makes it simpler, and again not really for any plus.
3. Given how many people I've ran into who clearly don't know what they're doing you're really only making me think we should probably dial back the boost potions, but honestly I understand the philosophy as it lets people play current stuff. But you're vastly overestimating how much people prepare before a dungeon or trial on average.
4. I'm more worried about the inverse, as a Scholar not knowing how to play right can easily wipe a party. DPS not knowing how to play will likely slow it to a crawl but usually doesn't lead to wiping. But it can happen, as I've ran into a Black Mage who clearly didn't know what he was doing, and it made all the fights drag. Coupled with poor plays from others it lead to wipes. It's also going to only increase if you're adding more characters who don't know what to do, to say nothing of raids.
5. That you did it fine is irrelevant. Everyone is not you. Everyone is not that Black Mage I ran with either mind you. But increasing the number of people with poor understanding of their jobs isn't a plus, and it only leads to more issues.
6. It really isn't a means to undo homogenization though. All the jobs aren't the same thing (that you think this really demonstrates you either have an abysmal understanding of jobs or a ridiculously low threshold), but again, having access to more jobs doesn't mean you can throw balance out the window. Which, again, is the focus. It isn't about "flavor of the month", it's about balance being the key deal.
7. If there are too many jobs then... don't play them all. You don't need to max level all of them to get a feel for them. If you want to then buckle in for a long ride. You shouldn't be trying a brand new job at level 80 anyways.
8. I'm likely older than you, and I certainly don't have the time to play this game as much as I want. This game is already very generous with free time as it is.
9. If you want to play as a Warrior I could very easily buy you a skip potion for it, would get you most of the way.
10. I practice tarot on a day to day basis, along with other methods of divination. I wouldn't remotely characterize it as introspective though. Perhaps you meant intuitive?
11. I mean, I wouldn't force a square peg through a round hole and pair it with any of them, that's kind of the thing.

God this thread is a mess.

Okay, parsing through it: Expansion Jobs should be tied to a Base class, many without any rhyme or reason. ((Honestly, if you're reaching for classes to affix classes to together and you just walk past WAR "I use my inner rage to power my abilities" and DRK "I use my Inner Hatred to fuel my abilities"))

If you Leveling either class/Job you will level the other: Important query, you may have addressed it or you may have not. If you have please direct me to where. If I want to unlock Samurai, Do I need to level Archer to 50? Do I unlock it at whatever level my Archer is? Or can I have a level 50 Lancer and do the Samurai Quest as normal and since Samurai unlocks at level 50, it drags my Archer/Bard up to level 50.

If we're going with "I hate tedium, I want to level my classes faster, Why stop there? Why not just say all Classes and jobs in similar groups ((Healer/Tank/Physical/Magical/Ranged)) share exp. It'd make everything easier for leveling, and it'd solve the problem of people suddenly jumping into a new job and not knowing their role ((Though they'd still have problems with their specific Job's mechanics)) And Match exp for the DoHs and DoLs.

As said above, one of the reasons they have you attain the job at a lower level than entry to the new expansion is so that you can level it and learn the mechanics in a familiar environment. Learning how to play the Job without the added issues present in learning a new dungeon or Boss and the associated mechanics. Whether or not you like it, giving a player a lower risk environment to learn mechanics is a staple of good game design.

I like leveling different jobs. Consolidating them gives me less to do in that regard. So, no, I'm against the idea.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

God this thread is a mess.

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Yes I agree. Thank you trolls.

As to your query I don’t think, I directly addressed that. Too many people derailing the important aspects of talking about it, so thank you for bringing that up. I think the best thing under a system like this would be to drop the requirements all together and simply award the job stones. This would mean that if you were say a level 1 Archer still, but had a class like let’s say Gladiator at 50, you can still get the stone, you’d just play Samurai or Bard from level 1 or what ever your Archer level is. Dragging the level up is only something that would take effect for players who already unlocked the job and had a pairing with a higher level. So if you already unlocked Samurai before the consolidation, and your Archer was still 1, it would get dragged up to Samurai’s level. For new players it would make their choice of class early on more meaningful.

For the purpose of this example, I also forgot talk about Bard at level 30. Archer is Bard before 30, so not having that job stone yet wouldn’t make much a difference.

I do hate the tedium. I’m not going to sugarcoat that. But leveling 10 classes instead of 20 jobs cuts it in half. That’s fair, because there are those who enjoy the leveling process. The role gear at endgame allows roles to essentially share an Item level so that basically already exists.

So like I said addressing your query, it’s only for those who unlocked before consolidation. Anyone new that hasn’t unlocked has to rely on the level the respective class is, which would give them a far longer windows to learn their job. I don’t particularly care for the mindset of babying players, but I know I can learn fast enough, and won’t just jump into end game content even when I know a job well. You are right, it is good game design to block out what’s new so people have time to adjust. But a lot of that should be up to the player as well. Every time a new champ comes out in league there are people who take it into ranked. Sometimes the first time pick sucks and sometimes they dominate. Never am I going to expect perfection out of random matchmaking because people still make mistakes on a role they know in and out. I can’t speak for everyone of course, but conversely I don’t really get why those who want to level grind every job has to speak for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I like leveling different jobs. Consolidating them gives me less to do in that regard. So, no, I'm against the idea.

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I get how you feel about that, but this game already has so many things to do. It’s not like you can’t swap between the 2 jobs during the leveling process under this system- that even puts more fun into the process because you won’t get burnt out on 1 job. And why should I have to suffer doing something tedious and impractical just because you like it? If that aspect of the game is something you like that much go start a new game.