No New Abilities in Next Expansion/No Button Bloat 6.0

I do not see for the life of me why people want more abilities. I can only speak for someone who permanently plays on the controller because I don't like playing on the PC period. How self-centred people can be when they are asking for new abilities. In the current state of play your hotbar is already full enough, your cross hotbar is already full enough and some classes, not all of them, don't have enough room. In fact I find the only reason I come on here to make sure the devs don't get the wrong idea and mess up the game for those already playing it. Look, you don't have to like what I am going to say and it is your right to disagree but you aren't going to change my mind like I am not going to be able to change yours. But there are things they can do first before they start slapping new abilities in an already bloated system.

1. Re-balance or remove useless abilities in the game that are not used or not commonly used or is too weak to warrant being an ability. A good example is Fluid Aura.
2. Compressing 1-2-3 combos into a single button and adding more traits to add to that combo as it is in pvp. For the life of me, I cannot understand why this is allowed in pvp and not pve. The amount of button space this could save would warrant adding more abilties to the game.
3. Makiing macros queue. I don't know whose idea it was to decide that people who use macros should be punsished. If those who do not understand what queueing is, it is that you are 1 second slower than everyone else when you use an ability that is macroed. There is nothing lazy about macros when you don't have space to support the 50-100 abilities that people wish to have in the game. Not everyone wants to play with every single key hotkeyed to every number and letter of a keyboard. You must think of other people other than yourself. I guess people like remembering 150 buttons you just had to press to have a perfect rotation ad if you make one mistake you lose so much dps. Unforgiving. If this is what the player base says, then I say no.
4. You give Astrologian to buff people but you won't give a class to debuff monsters. Yet the ones in the game are trash Bind, stun really? They used to be somewhat useful. I mean now, everyone and their mother is immune to it you have made certain abilities in parts of the game completely useless. I would like to have a chance to stun monsters to stop them doing certain thing. I would also like to reduce the strength or vitality of a target without stepping on am Astrologian's shoes. And for the love of all what you believe in, stop giving us more skills that do the same damn thing. I mean there is no reason to have a 52 button dps rotation, a tank rotation, or adding such a rotation on a healer it would make it unbearable.
5. Why not add a mastery system that lets a player master their own abilities that make them a little bit stronger than they were before? Or add new effects to them instead of adding more abilities which makes the game even more hard to play. If you need to take a chainsaw to the abilities and rebuild them slowly then good. I am fine with that, but when you say that you are going to spend your time to rework healers and you don't actually fix what is wrong with them? I have a problem with that.

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

I do not see for the life of me why people want more abilities. I can only speak for someone who permanently plays on the controller because I don't like playing on the PC period. How self-centred people can be when they are asking for new abilities.

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Calling people who have a different opinion than yours "self-centered" in literally the first few sentences of a new topic isn't the best way to get a proper discussion going.

You realize you are also being self-centered, right? You want what You want. Other people want what they want. Pot meet kettle.

Also SE always adjusts, and changes abilities around and/or removes abilities etc at an expansion, to prevent button bloat as much as possible.

Kinda have to wait until 6.0 to see what they do before you freak out this badly calling people self-centered just for wanting new abilities. New abilities are going to happen at every expansion anyway, you do realize that right? SE, so far, just does their best to handle the button bloat by adjusting things.

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

2. Compressing 1-2-3 combos into a single button and adding more traits to add to that combo as it is in pvp. For the life of me, I cannot understand why this is allowed in pvp and not pve. The amount of button space this could save would warrant adding more abilties to the game.

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This was done in PvP due to the faster paced and unpredictable nature. Supposedly, they were afraid people would focus too much on their hotbars whereas PvE lacks such a problem since everything is scripted. With that said, it's been near universally hated. Why? It reduced all the jobs to essentially spamming one or two buttons. While yes, the current combo system is little more than an illusion. It feels better—at least for many people—to press 1234 instead of 1111. And Astro highlights more than ever why how a job feels can heavily impacts the enjoyment. Personally, I want them to make new combos chains; like True Thrust -> Vorpal Thrust - Full Thrust having a different effect than the current Chaos Thrust combo. If they did that, or added an entirely new combo, I could maybe be convinced of combo consolidation. If it's simply reduce Dragoon down to 22221111 and add two new oGCDs. Yeah, no. Hard pass on that.

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3. Makiing macros queue. I don't know whose idea it was to decide that people who use macros should be punsished. If those who do not understand what queueing is, it is that you are 1 second slower than everyone else when you use an ability that is macroed. There is nothing lazy about macros when you don't have space to support the 50-100 abilities that people wish to have in the game. Not everyone wants to play with every single key hotkeyed to every number and letter of a keyboard. You must think of other people other than yourself. I guess people like remembering 150 buttons you just had to press to have a perfect rotation ad if you make one mistake you lose so much dps. Unforgiving. If this is what the player base says, then I say no.

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While I agree, macros in this game are horrible. I have to say, you're really over-exaggerating the severity of button bloat. Paladin and Scholar are arguably the only two major culprits here; with maybe Samurai being another. Even they can fit all of their abilities—with space to spare—across three hotbars. If you're running out of space, I have to wonder if you clutter your hotbar real estate with emotes, mounts, minion and waymarkers. In which case, that has nothing to do with job abilities.

Ultimately, people want new things because, well, new buttons are fun. Although, I'm of the opinion upgrading older skills is the way to go.

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4. You give Astrologian to buff people but you won't give a class to debuff monsters. Yet the ones in the game are trash Bind, stun really? They used to be somewhat useful. I mean now, everyone and their mother is immune to it you have made certain abilities in parts of the game completely useless. I would like to have a chance to stun monsters to stop them doing certain thing. I would also like to reduce the strength or vitality of a target without stepping on am Astrologian's shoes. And for the love of all what you believe in, stop giving us more skills that do the same damn thing. I mean there is no reason to have a 52 button dps rotation, a tank rotation, or adding such a rotation on a healer it would make it unbearable.

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Because Saboteur classes are notoriously difficult to balance. A significant problem with Astro has been how much utility it brought compared to Scholar and White Mage. In fact, the whole new card system was intended to mitigate the dominance Balance had. As for stuns and such. There just... isn't a point to them. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a greater emphasise on crowd control and such but when dungeon design boils down to simplicity mobs who hit like wet noodles. Using any sort of crowd control that isn't damage focused (i.e., Holy) accomplishes nothing. If dungeons took more inspiration from the higher floors of Deep Dungeon, where you have priority mobs that can and will murder the party easily. Crowd control suddenly has a purpose. Alas, I highly doubt we'll see that as the dev team seems fairly set on keeping dungeon design, well... basic.

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5. Why not add a mastery system that lets a player master their own abilities that make them a little bit stronger than they were before? Or add new effects to them instead of adding more abilities which makes the game even more hard to play. If you need to take a chainsaw to the abilities and rebuild them slowly then good. I am fine with that, but when you say that you are going to spend your time to rework healers and you don't actually fix what is wrong with them? I have a problem with that.

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In a multi-player game. Customization like this inevitably boils down to which abilities are mathematically superior. Someone who likes customizing their Meditation stacks to spam more Shoha aren't being creative if putting that effort towards Midare nets higher damage. They're just wrong. I'd love to bring in mild customization like FFVII Remake did but balancing that would be a nightmare. Saying they can just take a chainsaw to the existing system ignores the sheer workload such a massive overhaul entails. You're talking about a fundamental change to the entire skill system. At that point, they're better off making a new MMO altogether.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If dungeons took more inspiration from the higher floors of Deep Dungeon, where you have priority mobs that can and will murder the party easily. Crowd control suddenly has a purpose. Alas, I highly doubt we'll see that as the dev team seems fairly set on keeping dungeon design, well... basic.

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I'm not 100% certain I agree with the part of the quote I bolded, actually.

Amaurot's tethering Detonators and Roilers suggest they might be willing to consider doing that sort of thing. A Roiler in particular can really ruin your day, since that 30% healing debuff can be problematic if you have a squishier-than-usual tank who isn't using cooldowns; that 30% can be the difference between 'keeping the tank alive without serious effort' and 'suddenly struggling to keep the tank up before their health just vaporizes'.

(If you have a well-geared tank using cooldowns, admittedly, the Roiler debuff is just mildly annoying rather than an actual problem. But it is at least slightly different than just the average trash pull.)

At any rate, I feel like that does suggest the devs might be willing to experiment with making individual mobs in a pull act in a way that makes them a priority over others, which could mean changing things up slightly in future dungeon design. Or it could mean they just wanted some different mobs in that one dungeon, and nothing will change.

But you're absolutely right that as things stand right now, trash pulls don't really have much use for a saboteur/crowd control type job. So if we were to get one in 6.0, it would definitely require some different dungeon design for that expansion. (And it would still suffer from the issue of what such a job would do in existing earlier content.)

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Just wanna point out how obvious it is that this is a troll thread so people can quote me later.

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I mean this is the same OP that's posted and then immediately disappeared once the flames had been stoked before, so I'm 100% on board with that assessment.

I can just imagine the complaints if there were no new skills. Of course we're going to get some. What they remove and add is the question. Personally my two mains whm and rdm I've been very happy with the adjustments made in 5.0.

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

In fact I find the only reason I come on here to make sure the devs don't get the wrong idea and mess up the game for those already playing it.

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If you cared about that, you wouldn't have made this post.

Oh it's the 'just joined the game recently, listened to some new found FFXIV hating friends that filled said new players' head with stupid crap about the game and now suddenly has vast swaths of experience' player again.

I play on a controller and I don't have a probably at all and I personally like new abilities because it gives me something new to use and keeps the job feeling fresh.

Why do you think mnk is one of the least played job in the game?
Because it's boring as hell because the only new stuff they get are niche skills you almost never use or just buff skills like riddle of fire or some crap.

Also people, never buy (I play on controller) excuse, its BS. This game gives you a lot of ways to use every skill comfortably on controller.
If you suck at using a controller that's on you honestly.

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Originally Posted by Sedalia

I can only speak for someone who permanently plays on the controller because I don't like playing on the PC period. .

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I play on controller, even though I use a PC, and I have.....

absolutely zero issues with hotbar space.

In fact, I have a lot of empty spaces, and I also repeat actions on multiple hotbars for convenience.

If you're trying to put all your actions onto 1 hotbar, you're the one doing something wrong, not the developers.

The jobs and classes are already horribly homogenized and boring as it is. We need more complexity and customization before we need more actions taken away and reduced and removed or combined.

Seriously, why do so many people complain of button bloat, and ask for actions to be combined. Are you seriously that lazy you cant take the time to organize your actions, or press more than 1-3 buttons? This game is NOT complex or hard AT ALL.

I mean I bet the main reason people cant get to the end of 2.0 is because from level 1 to level 80
until savage content, everything is literally just "are you even pressing any buttons" easy. Extremely trivial and dull and repetitive.

It wasnt always that way, but its become that way over time.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

In fact, I have a lot of empty spaces, and I also repeat actions on multiple hotbars for convenience.

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Yup, I use 1 cross hotbar across all classes for key items, saddlebags, dig action, sprint, aether compass, zodiac glass, and various mounts/minions. The almost all other classes use two sets of cross hotbars - SCH and SMN being the only ones that need more than that. Have it setup to be able to access 3 sets with only having one continuously showing too, so definitely not much of a button bloat issue most of the time.

That being said, I would still prefer them to just give us traits that upgrade skills(that way, if they are able to, they can go all the way back down to the lower levels and make it so we have the majority of skills by the time we hit 20-30, and just get "proficient" at the skills, thus increasing their power) rather than adding more skills, and removing others.

Personally would love new abilities... but some jobs need them more or less than others. This is where the jobs that don't need new abilities could use some clever bloat reduction to pair with new abilities leading to no button gain but mechanically deeper job. So you'll get some with new spells, some with smart spells (changes themselves), and others will be pure upgrades.

There is probably this ideal number they're aiming for so everyone can enjoy playing reasonably without growing new arms and hands, so I imagine people shouldn't worry too much- it's had to be a conversation they've had.. I just can't imagine it's wouldn't be lol.

Also some jobs are a bit special in that they're probably designed to be 'the simple one' 'the complex one' 'tools that are situational and so it has more buttons than usual' etc.

So yay to new goodies, but sure of course within reason ;).

"your cross hotbar is already full enough"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA good one. I play on PS4 and there's a f**k load of available space in my cross hotbars. No class/job in this game fills 3 cross hotbars with their skills; some of those can't even fill 2. which means there're still 5 or 6 groups of available slots for anything else.

As someone who also plays on controller and has done since early access 2.0 I disagree with the OP whole heartedly. If you can’t fit all your abilities on your hotbars and have spare empty slots then there’s something very very very wrong

I certainly like older games and the way they did things, such as FFXI and every job easily taking up 30+ buttons. Those were much slower games though. Between the speed of this one, and the ever-increasing simplicity they incorporate into everything, there's not much point lamenting over complexity we're never getting back. Much better to embrace where we're at now entirely; there are only realistically eight buttons(1-4 + Alt) you can comfortably activate on a keyboard one-handed when in a hurry, so each job shouldn't have more than eight to use. Roll procs and everything else into traits and contextual versions of the base button. Condense more spells. There's no need for Cure III, Medica, and Medica II. Turn it into just Medica II with Medica potency by such-and-such level. RDM's elemental spells can all be reduced to two buttons, one for single-target and one for AoE. DNC is a good example of them already putting some thought into a setup like this, I suspect. MNK alternating between more-damagey and effect-refreshy move sets is pointless, roll the buffs into the job as always-active traits and delete three of the moves, then turn the remaining three into a single context button. All three Fists can be removed as abilities, make Fists of Fire an extra damage trait. Additionally, right now BLM is basically ACN in that it's the only odd hold-out that doesn't fit, so it'll have to be highly reworked to stop relying on the MP flip-flop and dozen different procs. Once that's gone though, there's also no real reason they can't kick MP to the curb like they did with TP.

I want more abilities please!

If you dont like it, there is wow with 4 skills rotation to play.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

I play on a controller and I don't have a probably at all and I personally like new abilities because it gives me something new to use and keeps the job feeling fresh.

Why do you think mnk is one of the least played job in the game?
Because it's boring as hell because the only new stuff they get are niche skills you almost never use or just buff skills like riddle of fire or some crap.

Also people, never buy (I play on controller) excuse, its BS. This game gives you a lot of ways to use every skill comfortably on controller.
If you suck at using a controller that's on you honestly.

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^ this. I play on controlller and I do just fine. There's a lot of buttons but we also have 32 slots on our cross hotbar. Everything fits relatively easy. I think there's only one class of mine that fills it entirely (maybe paladin). But there's no problem playing on controlller. I have a friend that frequently swaps between keyboard & mouse and then controller. She's had no difficulty with both.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

^ this. I play on controlller and I do just fine. There's a lot of buttons but we also have 32 slots on our cross hotbar. Everything fits relatively easy. I think there's only one class of mine that fills it entirely (maybe paladin). But there's no problem playing on controlller. I have a friend that frequently swaps between keyboard & mouse and then controller. She's had no difficulty with both.

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Correction: we have 32 slots within the first two hotbars, which is what is usually used for abilities.

So you insist on making vast, sweeping, systemic changes, then say NO NEW ABILITIES and call everyone who does want new toys to play with self-centered?

Can't tell if OP is just a troll, or if they are so out of touch with their head so far up their own behind. In either case, please stop posting please and thank you.

here's why... maybe I don't have an ability I really want to enjoy... like I really want levithan to be my summon on summoner... his my favorite summon creature in ff... or maybe I feel like something is missing like on black mages... almost half of blm is buff abilities... it would be nice to get an expansion of just pure spells for the MAGes lol