Speculation on Eden 9-12

Okay I thought I'd share my thoughts/ideas on what the last leg of the raid series would entail.

1. The story will follow three people, the WoL, Ryne and Gaia as they put the finishing touches on restoring the Empty. However with Nature restored, there is still for some reason an absence of sentience and souls, so they seek to find a way to restore both. the Logical conclusion would be to summon Primals that represent such qualities.
2. However few are related to those ideas and those that are are optional (Namely the Warring Triad, with Sephirot being Life, Zurvan being Time and Sophia being knowledge, at least to my unerstanding), so our group decided to do the next best thing, creating original eikons. Which would represent these qualities, and would also be throwbacks to ether the Eden Story (Adam, Eve and the Serpent), or VIII's Guardian forces (though of the VII-orignal ones some are common mobs,or used elsewhere in places like Deltascape and Pharos Sirius, once's the final boss of Akademia Ayndr and another was dispatched at the beginning of the raid story).
3. With those three defeated and their essences absorbed into the land, the Empty begins showing signs of animal life and even beings akin to those that perished in the flood. However something in one of the girls changes (my gil's on Gaia) forcing a final confrontation with the fairy from before. Now serving as an Ultimercia analogue poised to bring forth a flood of Darkness much like the Void. Defeating her yields the Empty fully restore and Eden's true origins revealed, which would tie her and thus the sin Eaters back to the Amoratines and the sound, optional are corrupted Voidsent versions of the Virtues spawned from the WoL's memories of the First's WoL.
4. Alternatively the ARR throwback trend would continue and we would face Eden versions of Moggle Mog XII, Odin and Bahamut before the Ultimercia analogue fight

I think it'll probably echo the Omega raids, where the first fight is similar to what we've faced before, and then the last 3 fights will be entirely unique. With 4 being Ultimecia, perhaps. Though it could just as easily happen in 3, and then in 4 we will fight both Ryne and Gaia in forms that will be foreshadowing for facing off with Hydaelyn and Zodiark or something.

If we fight the, "Fairy" again, it will most likely happen in 2, and what transpires there will influence what happens in 3 and 4. Similar to how Midgardsormr's recreation lead to us fighting Omega directly. Twice.

I don't really think they will use any more Primals now. We only summoned them to restore life to the Empty, and in the Quests following Eden's Verse Urianger stated that we did all that was possible and now only time needs to pass for life to fully return - in other words, there is no need for summoning Primals anymore.

Considering the build-up and hints with Gaia, I think we will mostly get original FF XIV stuff and some FF VIII Fanservice, Ultimicia at the very least. Maybe the girls decide to use the creation system of Eden in a way that would speed up time in the Empty so that it would recover faster - after all, Ultimicia is associated with time. Or maybe it's Gaia's darkness, who knows.

I'd be surprised if Ultimecia didn't show up. I doubt the development team are unaware of the desire for her to be added to the game. The music alone would make it worth it, though I'm sure it'd make for an incredible fight.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd be surprised if Ultimecia didn't show up. I doubt the development team are unaware of the desire for her to be added to the game. The music alone would make it worth it, though I'm sure it'd make for an incredible fight.

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Given Exdeath and Kefka it wouldn't be impossible, but Ultimecia isn't an especially popular villain so I'm not too positive that would happen. I'm not really sure how she'd fit in from a lore standpoint as is (even if the aforementioned Exdeath/Kefka kind of make it moot I'm personally hoping for less blatant ripoffs).

Ultimicia would actually be a better fit and much less random than Kefka and Exdeath. The whole story since Gaia appeared has been littered with hints of Ultimicia, the most notable Gaia's 'possession' and the idol of Darkness. Also, at one point Gaia brings a straight up Ultimicia quote from the last phase of the Final Battle.

Granted, those hints are only noticeable if you played FF VIII.

It is pretty damn likely we will see ultimecia in some form since we have seen and offed the villains of other FF games mostly in the alliance or 8 man raids. Though I'm not gonna be surprised if in 5.3 we see another FF villain or summon turn up in the msq

Given how Eden is about ff8...Its highly likely ultimecia might be the idol of darkness or something similar and that leads to our opportunity to destroy her and remove another big bad from our hit list which is currently as follows:

Chaos (FF1) in Alphascape V1
Xande and Cloud of Darkness (FF3) in Crystal tower. Though Xande is a bit of a composite of Emperor Mateus of FF2 as well, so its arguable we got 2 AND 3
Exdeath and Gilgamesh, Omega weapon (FF5) in Deltascape 4, Battle in keep/bridge/kugane bridge, Alphascape 3/4
Kefka, Warring triad, train and a general leo expy (FF6) Sigmascape and Warring triad
Ruby weapon and subsequent ones (FF7) in the current weapons series

Gabranth, Ultima, Argath (FF12 and Tactics) we are starting in the relic weapon for SHB. Argath and Ultima we offed in return to Ivalice

Ranjit is similar to FF13-2's Caius Ballad. If we fight Hydaelyn or Zodiark, one of them might be based off of Bhunivelse on FF13-3, though I wouldn't be surprised if a Fragment of Zodiark is fought like we do in 12

Interesting thing to note about 12/Tactics is that *SPOILER* we are learning about Venat's role currently and Venat was an antagonist as well. Finally the ascians are curiously named after scions of light from one of the side games complete with zodiacs. Its not a perfect 1 to 1 (Thundergod cid took the scorpion since Cuchlaenn was used in Void ark) but its curious nonetheless

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

It is pretty damn likely we will see ultimecia in some form since we have seen and offed the villains of other FF games mostly in the alliance or 8 man raids. Though I'm not gonna be surprised if in 5.3 we see another FF villain or summon turn up in the msq

Given how Eden is about ff8...Its highly likely ultimecia might be the idol of darkness or something similar and that leads to our opportunity to destroy her and remove another big bad from our hit list which is currently as follows:

Chaos (FF1) in Alphascape V1
Xande and Cloud of Darkness (FF3) in Crystal tower. Though Xande is a bit of a composite of Emperor Mateus of FF2 as well, so its arguable we got 2 AND 3
Exdeath and Gilgamesh, Omega weapon (FF5) in Deltascape 4, Battle in keep/bridge/kugane bridge, Alphascape 3/4
Kefka, Warring triad, train and a general leo expy (FF6) Sigmascape and Warring triad
Ruby weapon and subsequent ones (FF7) in the current weapons series

Gabranth, Ultima, Argath (FF12 and Tactics) we are starting in the relic weapon for SHB. Argath and Ultima we offed in return to Ivalice

Ranjit is similar to FF13-2's Caius Ballad. If we fight Hydaelyn or Zodiark, one of them might be based off of Bhunivelse on FF13-3, though I wouldn't be surprised if a Fragment of Zodiark is fought like we do in 12

Interesting thing to note about 12/Tactics is that *SPOILER* we are learning about Venat's role currently and Venat was an antagonist as well. Finally the ascians are curiously named after scions of light from one of the side games complete with zodiacs. Its not a perfect 1 to 1 (Thundergod cid took the scorpion since Cuchlaenn was used in Void ark) but its curious nonetheless

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Which side game do you mean?

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

Ultimicia would actually be a better fit and much less random than Kefka and Exdeath. The whole story since Gaia appeared has been littered with hints of Ultimicia, the most notable Gaia's 'possession' and the idol of Darkness. Also, at one point Gaia brings a straight up Ultimicia quote from the last phase of the Final Battle.

Granted, those hints are only noticeable if you played FF VIII.

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Gaia's magic all has time stuff going on too.

I just hope that E11 will be Griever, as either a Voidsent or a Sineater, either could work really.

Then E12 would be Ultimecia, in one form or another.
Given that this whole expac has elements of time travel in it, as well as FF8 that this is drawn from, I'm expecting something like Ultimecia is a sineater from the (alternate) future and she seeks to undo our efforts to restore the Empty, and utilise it to re-flood all of Norvrandt.
It would come in two phases, one where she possesses Gaia and we have to fight Gaia, then Ryne is off to the side attempting to use Eden to somehow separate them, and brings Ultimecia into being so we can defeat her.

Then E12S would feature a third phase in the middle, where Gaiamecia fuses with Griever.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Given Exdeath and Kefka it wouldn't be impossible, but Ultimecia isn't an especially popular villain so I'm not too positive that would happen.

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If Ultimecia shows up in the final wing of the Eden raid, it would not be like Exdeath, Kefka, and Chaos, but rather more like Xande and the Cloud of Darkness in Syrcus Tower and the World of Darkness: Original characters whose names and appearances are references to previous Final Fantasy characters. In Ultimecia's case, I would imagine she would turn out to be a former Warrior of Light from the Thirteenth, like Cyella and Unukalhai.

Or perhaps something considerably more convoluted, like the whole "Rinoa is Ultimecia" fan idea. For an example, here's some weird spitballing:

It could be Minfilia from the Exarch's Timeline, having survived the Eighth Umbral Calamity due to her Ascian-like existence. That would require an unreasonably lengthy explanation to work, I'd imagine, but it's not impossible.

For me the -no longer- Empty just needs time, which could be achieved thanks to Gaïa's power as suggested in this thread. Otherwise, it can just happen on it's own, I don't think it needs more intervention from our side.

There's Eden though. What do we do with it now? It's a powerful tool that could be a weapon. And I think the only other thing to wrap up here is how Gaïa came to be possessed by that "Fairy" and her being the Darkness equivalent of Minfilia. I do feel some strong Ultimecia vibes there too, not sure about the Griever GF because that's something that concept has been left out of anything FFVIII ported into FFXIV (although it could be interesting, in a fight design way).

We are expecting Nomura designs for some of these bosses, which once again strengthens the possibility of seeing Ultimecia. The other three bosses could be pretty much anything really. It's not easy to guess like Middy and Omega as a WoL were back then. Perhaps we'll locate Ultimecia's Castle and see some of the bosses from there (though none of which were that iconic).

Story-wise, we just have to make sure Ryne and Gaïa can stay best friends on the First, I don't see anything more to it (I do feel that Eden's story is really poor, on that topic). I wonder if Thancred is not going to stay on the First too...

You know, Ultimecia always sorta struck me as genderbent version of The Emperor of Palamecia from FF2. Wanting Time Compression to end existence can even make sense in line with FFXIV's Shadowbringers story beats, given the whole time travel shenanigans. Make the present and the past one. "Time... it will not wait... No matter... how hard you hold on. It escapes you."

I might be selfish in saying this, but I hope that they will just make last 4 Eden fights references to Edea, Adel and Ultimecia. Third can be regular Ultimecia while 4th can be her time-bending version. Honestly, I just want to see Adel.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

Ultimicia would actually be a better fit and much less random than Kefka and Exdeath. The whole story since Gaia appeared has been littered with hints of Ultimicia, the most notable Gaia's 'possession' and the idol of Darkness. Also, at one point Gaia brings a straight up Ultimicia quote from the last phase of the Final Battle.

Granted, those hints are only noticeable if you played FF VIII.

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Trust me, I know Ultimecia pretty well. My hope is it’ll be a reference/nod as opposed to straight expy like those two. Though hoping it won’t be named Ultimecia either.

I think Ultimecia's inclusion is pretty likely, considering the Idol of Darkness resembles her face tattoos. It'd be odd for her to be absent :d I also hope more FF8 stuff shows up. Griever and Pandermona would be awesome, especially with new battle themes from FF8.

I feel confident thinking we'll get Griever (probably as either a Voidsent or Sin Eater called forth by Gaia losing control of the darkness possessing her again), and that Ultimecia will at the very least inspire the final fight of the tier if she doesn't outright show up herself as the encounter. I have a pet theory that since Gaia has called the voice in her head a fairy, and that a lot of time manipulating magic was involved when we fought her as Voidwalker, that maybe we'll get a fight inspired by Airy from Bravely Default (which is basically a spiritual successor to the early FF titles anyway).

I feel like one fight will have another duo theme going with Light and Darkness showing these aspects need to be balanced to Eden as well.

I think the powers of Gaia are from a voidsent particularly one from the highest rung like Cloud and Schatcth, this highest tier of voidsent atm with the knowledge we have has all be female form leaders, Diabolos ascended to this tier but was not naturally this tier.

Ultimecia particularly her final form can very easily fit the voidsent themes. Gaia's powers have heavy time aspects as shown in E2 and E8. A voidsent sensing a being of power on another world they could manipulate is not out there, and sensing what Eden could do plan a way to use to their advantage, I mean higher tier voidsent are intelligible and can very well the plan could be to take control of Eden to gain complete contol over the void that is the 13th Shard.

I suspect if we get Ultimecia we'll have 2 seperate Ultimecia encounter fights 1 heavily using FFVIII(start off base Ultimecia form, add phase being time compression fighting Sorceress adds, fin all part being final form) and the other being a fusion of Ultimecia and Eden within her section of control of the 13th Shard.

Would it be wrong to hope Gaia uses time magic to speed up The Empty's recovery only for it to backfire reveal the Ultimacia behind the curtain?

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Though I'm not gonna be surprised if in 5.3 we see another FF villain or summon turn up in the msq

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2 months to the day I said that and we got the Warrior of Light... Well I was on the right lines at least, from what I know of dissidia all the fighters are summoned.


Something that has been bothering me about Eden- Is it truly alive or not? Ryne could detect power from it like a Sin Eater, but immediately after getting to it we found it was a machine. A partly sentient one admittedly which is why its fought against Ryne's will in addition to taking more than was intended when creating the primals.

We also don't know why it caused the flood of light. It certainly has the potential to cause the flood and is indeed the only plausible cause left. On its own it can change the elements in an area. The ascians would have absolutely loved Eden if they weren't already aware of it- if it can undo a world of light, then it could undo a world of darkness as well- the void. Then it would have just been a matter of moving/recreating Eden to the source and shard of choice and they'd have been able to cause rejoinings at will

Which brings an interesting question- would time become an element that we summon, in an effort to speed up growth of the empty or to try and realign the different aether currents so the land develops evenly instead of just in patches
We absolutely will end up fighting the fairy again. I just hope its not via a daft reason like we did eden shiva.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

(Namely the Warring Triad, with Sephirot being Life, Zurvan being Time and Sophia being knowledge, at least to my unerstanding),

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Sephirot represents life and death, Sophia represents balance and harmony, and Zurvan represents punishment and judgement (specifically, over other deities, hence his dialogue about how he "standeth above all other gods"). Time is Alexander's thing.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

2 months to the day I said that and we got the Warrior of Light... Well I was on the right lines at least, from what I know of dissidia all the fighters are summoned.


Something that has been bothering me about Eden- Is it truly alive or not? Ryne could detect power from it like a Sin Eater, but immediately after getting to it we found it was a machine. A partly sentient one admittedly which is why its fought against Ryne's will in addition to taking more than was intended when creating the primals.

We also don't know why it caused the flood of light. It certainly has the potential to cause the flood and is indeed the only plausible cause left. On its own it can change the elements in an area. The ascians would have absolutely loved Eden if they weren't already aware of it- if it can undo a world of light, then it could undo a world of darkness as well- the void. Then it would have just been a matter of moving/recreating Eden to the source and shard of choice and they'd have been able to cause rejoinings at will

Which brings an interesting question- would time become an element that we summon, in an effort to speed up growth of the empty or to try and realign the different aether currents so the land develops evenly instead of just in patches
We absolutely will end up fighting the fairy again. I just hope its not via a daft reason like we did eden shiva.

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Eden would not work in the Thirteenth. It works on the First because the First has an abundance of aether. The Thirteenth is devoid of Aether completely.

Honestly, this is one of the hanging plotlines I'm most interested in because we just don't know how it's going to go. The mission to revitalize the Empty's aether to eventually make it habitable again has been accomplished, but there are still hanging plot threads the characters don't seem terribly concerned about (the context that led to Eden initiating the Flood, where it came from, and solving the mystery behind Gaia's missing memories).

Gaia shares characteristics with various VIII characters, not just Ultimecia. Like Squall she puts up a standoffish front to hide her insecurities, has inner monologues, and acts recklessly when those she cares for are in danger; like Rinoa she's a spoiled rich girl initially in over her head; like Laguna she relies on a "faerie" for extra power in times of crisis; and like all the SeeD characters (except Irvine) she has amnesia. Ultimecia's influence is noted, though whether it's meant to be particularly significant or not I could not say.

Moving forward? Again, couldn't say. Alls I know is, I'm expecting Griever to make an appearance, and will be super disappointed if we don't fight Ultimecia in some capacity (if only for a face-melting remix of The Extreme from Soken). She might not be a very popular villain antagonist due to her very limited screen time and obtuse motivations, but damn if Ultimecia didn't leave an impression through her sheer power and stubbornness during that limited time she had.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

2 months to the day I said that and we got the Warrior of Light... Well I was on the right lines at least, from what I know of dissidia all the fighters are summoned.


Something that has been bothering me about Eden- Is it truly alive or not? Ryne could detect power from it like a Sin Eater, but immediately after getting to it we found it was a machine. A partly sentient one admittedly which is why its fought against Ryne's will in addition to taking more than was intended when creating the primals.

We also don't know why it caused the flood of light. It certainly has the potential to cause the flood and is indeed the only plausible cause left. On its own it can change the elements in an area. The ascians would have absolutely loved Eden if they weren't already aware of it- if it can undo a world of light, then it could undo a world of darkness as well- the void. Then it would have just been a matter of moving/recreating Eden to the source and shard of choice and they'd have been able to cause rejoinings at will

Which brings an interesting question- would time become an element that we summon, in an effort to speed up growth of the empty or to try and realign the different aether currents so the land develops evenly instead of just in patches
We absolutely will end up fighting the fairy again. I just hope its not via a daft reason like we did eden shiva.

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It could be simliar to Alexander, it also was a machine mostly as primal but had the mind of one of the Au'ra, maybe Gaia used to be the core or the one possesng her acted as one.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Honestly, this is one of the hanging plotlines I'm most interested in because we just don't know how it's going to go. The mission to revitalize the Empty's aether to eventually make it habitable again has been accomplished, but there are still hanging plot threads the characters don't seem terribly concerned about (the context that led to Eden initiating the Flood, where it came from, and solving the mystery behind Gaia's missing memories).

Gaia shares characteristics with various VIII characters, not just Ultimecia. Like Squall she puts up a standoffish front to hide her insecurities, has inner monologues, and acts recklessly when those she cares for are in danger; like Rinoa she's a spoiled rich girl initially in over her head; like Laguna she relies on a "faerie" for extra power in times of crisis; and like all the SeeD characters (except Irvine) she has amnesia. Ultimecia's influence is noted, though whether it's meant to be particularly significant or not I could not say.

Moving forward? Again, couldn't say. Alls I know is, I'm expecting Griever to make an appearance, and will be super disappointed if we don't fight Ultimecia in some capacity (if only for a face-melting remix of The Extreme from Soken). She might not be a very popular villain antagonist due to her very limited screen time and obtuse motivations, but damn if Ultimecia didn't leave an impression through her sheer power and stubbornness during that limited time she had.

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It has been awhile since I did the chapter on DFFOO but Ultimecia posed as a disembodied voice (faerie) to Noel to help him find his way as she apparently felt kinship with him being all alone.

This loneliness she goes on to admit within her personal event/chapter story to the Heroes, but everyone is thinking it is just a ploy of hers to compress time again.

If Ultimecia were to appear she could tie in with Gaia's loneliness prior to meeting Ryne given Gaia's backstory at the moment.

Ultimecia in FFVIII is quite basic as a villain, but in everything since she seemingly has deeper motivation than what was originally told, this extra stuff helps me like her more also helps The Extreme is one of my favourite FF tracks ever and her final form gives inspiration to Anima from FFX.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

It has been awhile since I did the chapter on DFFOO but Ultimecia posed as a disembodied voice (faerie) to Noel to help him find his way as she apparently felt kinship with him being all alone.

This loneliness she goes on to admit within her personal event/chapter story to the Heroes, but everyone is thinking it is just a ploy of hers to compress time again.

If Ultimecia were to appear she could tie in with Gaia's loneliness prior to meeting Ryne given Gaia's backstory at the moment.

Ultimecia in FFVIII is quite basic as a villain, but in everything since she seemingly has deeper motivation than what was originally told, this extra stuff helps me like her more also helps The Extreme is one of my favourite FF tracks ever and her final form gives inspiration to Anima from FFX.

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Don't misunderstand - it's not that Ultimecia's motivations are unknown or unknowable, they just aren't clearly spelled out in VIII itself due to the story focusing more on Squall and Rinoa's romance. She also acts through proxies and rarely speaks to the protagonists, so you have to read between the lines the few times she does so (or get the guidebook) to understand her intentions.

Basically, Ultimecia causes the events of the game, which are a big temporal loop - due to her use of Junction Machine Ellone to mess with the past, Ultimecia indirectly sows the idea of SeeD and heightens the already-present hatred and mistrust of Sorceresses (due to the actions of others such as Adel); when she's born and it's found out she's a Sorceress, Ultimecia is persecuted until she snaps and decides to become the monster everyone made her out to be. Thanks to being in the future Ultimecia knows how the events of the game are supposed to play out, so she uses Junction Machine Ellone in order to try and avert her fate, starting the cycle over again.

You can only pick up on this if you know she's possessing Edea for the first two discs, given it's the only times she speaks to the protagonists before they meet her in person for the final battle. It's also never clearly spelled out - you have to put it together from what she says, and that ain't easy because she says so little and it comes across as very cryptic if you don't have the context. (The Ultimania companion book spells it out.)

I can't speak much to Ultimecia's personality (because she displays so little of it in both VIII and Dissidia), but Gaia's inner monologue on loneliness is almost paraphrasing the same one Squall gives to Rinoa when she falls comatose after the end of Disc 2 in VIII. (Specifically about how much she wanted to be left alone, but now that she actually is alone, she realizes how much the people in her life mean to her.)

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Eden would not work in the Thirteenth. It works on the First because the First has an abundance of aether. The Thirteenth is devoid of Aether completely.

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This has been brought up before. The First does NOT have an abundance of Aether. It has a normal amount of Aether. However, the Aether has been polarized toward the Umbral state to the point where it is unusable and static.

As for the Thirteenth, while it's been stated it has a lack of Aether, what this likely means is that it, too, has a lack of USEABLE Aether, as the Aether on the Thirteenth was polarized toward the Astral state to the point where it is unusable and chaotic. The creatures (Voidsent) from the Thirteenth are aether-starved because, while there's Aether all around them, it is unusable. A bit like dying of thirst at sea - water all around, but not a drop to drink. So, the Voidsent need to break through into other Shards and the Source in order to feed.

In light of this, it's entirely possible that Eden could be used to recover the Thirteenth Shard. It's also possible that the Ascians built it to do exactly that, then repurposed it for use in Rejoining the First. If we DO use Eden on the Thirteenth, though - just as our efforts on the First, we won't see significant results within our lifetimes. It will be a multi-generational process to turn back what the flood did. There will be no shortage of Voidsent for the duration of the game's lifetime. However, there will be hope for the future, within the game's setting!

I think it's a definite possibility that, at the end of the Raid cycle, Gaia will take Eden to the Thirteenth to begin work on restoring that Shard. And possibly take Ryne with her, so they can be besties forever.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

This has been brought up before. The First does NOT have an abundance of Aether. It has a normal amount of Aether. However, the Aether has been polarized toward the Umbral state to the point where it is unusable and static.

As for the Thirteenth, while it's been stated it has a lack of Aether, what this likely means is that it, too, has a lack of USEABLE Aether, as the Aether on the Thirteenth was polarized toward the Astral state to the point where it is unusable and chaotic. The creatures (Voidsent) from the Thirteenth are aether-starved because, while there's Aether all around them, it is unusable. A bit like dying of thirst at sea - water all around, but not a drop to drink. So, the Voidsent need to break through into other Shards and the Source in order to feed.

In light of this, it's entirely possible that Eden could be used to recover the Thirteenth Shard. It's also possible that the Ascians built it to do exactly that, then repurposed it for use in Rejoining the First. If we DO use Eden on the Thirteenth, though - just as our efforts on the First, we won't see significant results within our lifetimes. It will be a multi-generational process to turn back what the flood did. There will be no shortage of Voidsent for the duration of the game's lifetime. However, there will be hope for the future, within the game's setting!

I think it's a definite possibility that, at the end of the Raid cycle, Gaia will take Eden to the Thirteenth to begin work on restoring that Shard. And possibly take Ryne with her, so they can be besties forever.

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The void as a shard does seem like a possible expansion. We literally have two npcs that come from it on our side.

The problem is that they're both hidden behind optional content. While making the Warring Triad mandatory for Unukalhai is easy enough, can you imagine the rage if everyone had to complete all four level 80 role quests for Ciella?

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The problem is that they're both hidden behind optional content. While making the Warring Triad mandatory for Unukalhai is easy enough, can you imagine the rage if everyone had to complete all four level 80 role quests for Ciella?

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This is actually solvable with an extra dialogue option or two, ala Estinien's treatment in Heavensward. You don't need to have run through the Dragoon quests to play the Heavensward MSQ - but if you have, Estinien recognizes you from those quests. (And if you have not, and run the Dragoon quests AFTER finishing the MSQ, he doesn't recognize you there. This is typical for this game - all older quests are assumed to have happened "in the past", regardless of when you choose to do them as a player.)

In the case of Ciella, all they have to do is have her step forward and out herself as the ward of an Ascian. If you've already done the Role Quests, that's peachy - it's all stuff you already know. If not, no matter - this is the point where you learn. If you go back and do the Role Quests later, they'll be unchanged, because they're older quests. Even though you're doing them now, they actually happened in the past, before Ciella outed herself.

I was actually a bit surprised they didn't do this for G'raha Tia - but then, the Crystal Tower itself is a pretty big part of the expansion, so that could be why they decided to make the Crystal Tower Raids a prerequisite. They wanted folks to know the story before going in, because it would take a lot less explanation. In the case of Estinien, "Nidhoggkilled his family" is really all you need to know to explain is presence there.