I would love a dev confirmation on this, before patch 1.19 the gathering fatigue was governed by the 250 gather maximum with 10 success/hour depletion and a 150 success "wall" past which your success rate would drop (to 50% by my estimates back when). With the current system having a much larger maximum limit and wall, are we still limited to the 10 success/hour regeneration or has that increased as well? In addition, I would appreciate some sort of counter in the GUI of DoL that keeps track of our remaining gathers (green - 100%, yellow - 50% wall, red - 0% {or numerical}).
[dev1162] Gathering Fatigue Mechanics
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04-06-2012, 03:59 AMLemmingKingXXX[dev1162] Gathering Fatigue Mechanics
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04-06-2012, 10:00 AMLux_Rayna
What? There is no gather fatigue. If you hit the right strike zone you will succeed every single time. You can find a list of strike zones for every gatherable item on mooglebox.
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04-06-2012, 10:05 AMEynObviously you are still in the dark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna
Yes, please. Some kind of mechanics will be good. -
04-06-2012, 10:09 AMPeptaru
There very much are fatigue caps on gathering. Very easy to find if working toward cheevos. All of a sudden things you've successfully pulled out for hours start getting damaged more and more and more til every swing/chop yields a damaged item. That leaves you with half xp and no actual item. To me it is most noticable now with fishing, I barely get into it and already everything gets away.
I'd love some actual numbers, but i realllllllllllllllly doubt that'll ever happen. (at least not from devs) The green/yellow/red is an okay idea to me, but i just stop when half my pulls start failing, I'd call that yellow. lol -
04-07-2012, 04:17 AMLux_RaynaIt must be high...cuz when I mine nothing gets damaged ever and ive been mining for hours and hours. Of course ive mined for 4 hours straight, your mileage may vary. But if i've collected 4 stacks of electrum in a single session and have yet to miss or dmg anything than I'd say it isn't even a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
There does some to be an HQ fatigue system tho, but regular stuff? Never seen it.
My success rate has always been 100%
EDIT: I havent damaged an ore since I was...lvl 30? That was a good month ago at least. And thats because I didn't know the strike zones. Use strike zones on moogle box and you will never fail. -
04-07-2012, 07:34 AMPeptaru
Again, that isn't true, but ty for playing. We're not talking about damaging things by missing, which I likewise haven't done in a good 30 levels. Four stacks is nothing. Go get 8 stacks of mahogany + multiple stacks of other items. Or 9 stacks of cobalt + other items.
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04-07-2012, 07:59 AMRaldo
I'll throw my hat in the ring to confirm that, yes, gathering fatigue does still exist. If you gather enough, you will begin to damage things even if you are hitting the correct spot.
That said, I rarely have the patience to hit it, because it literally takes hours of constant gathering. I have only hit it once or twice since it was "alleviated". -
04-07-2012, 08:05 AMLux_RaynaAs I said if there is one its very high, at which point I fail to see why it even needs discussing. I'm not denying its existence, but I am denying its practical existence, as in few ppl would mine that much for that many consecutive hours to notice its presence at all. And 4 stacks in one sitting+other items is actually quite a bit, though I appreciate your attempt at belittling. 8-9+ stacks is just extreme. Maybe this is an issue for ppl who mine 6+ hours a day, but the wall is so high (apparently) that its hardly worth discussing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
If this so-called fatigue system was actually in the old range I could see a need for the implementation. But theres no way you'll notice it unless you are spending all day gathering, and most ppl just dont do that. -
04-07-2012, 08:45 AMPeptaru
So to hell with the people who do? Good point Rayna!..... sad.
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04-07-2012, 08:52 AMLux_RaynaWell..yeah pretty much. SE obviously doesn't want you gathering 6+ hours a day. You're supposed to take the hint and do something else. You're talking about wanting to gather hours after youve been gathering for hours already, which SE doesn't want. Why do you expect them to cater to ppl who mine that long when they don't want ppl mining that long in the first place o.oQuote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
@Raldo: Ty! I thought it was a rumor for a minute but yeah it does seem the cap is really high. -
04-07-2012, 09:07 AMPeptaru
They should put fatigue caps on DoM/DoW too then, I think. The fatigue is only there to stop RMT from what they used to tell us, but it stops me (us who do it) from enjoying what we want to do.
This is all off-topic though. -
04-07-2012, 09:17 AMLemmingKingXXX
With the old system, if you wanted to get beyond the 150 wall and head to the maximum of 250, it would be at most about 1 day of cooldown to get to zero again, with such a high cap now, if the regeneration is still the old 10 per hour, that could be several days just to get back to zero from the wall, not even counting if you went hardcore to the maximum. All this would be moot if we could get an indicator on the GUI similar to the old sp/xp fatigue colors. I would like to know because I am attempting the achievements while at the same time gathering specific items for various crafting ventures, so I would like to know how much I can achievement farm and when I need to stop so I can gather up the stacks I need for crafting.
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04-07-2012, 09:21 AMRaldo
This is personal opinon of course, but I'd rather see them keep the status quo. If you tell people exactly how it works, people will milk the system as much as possible.
If you really want to keep gathering post-fatigue, switch to a different DoL. I'm told fatigue is class-specific. -
04-07-2012, 09:51 AMKinseykinzIt's not off-topic...it IS the topic. The reason they raised the fatigue cap is because the old one was punishing honest players who were either just trying to grind gathering to level up or who were farming for the linkshells/profit etc. The cap was so low, it was hindering people's ability to just level up at a steady pace...so SE raised it. Now probably 90% of the people who gather at least 1-2 times a week probably never hit gathering cap. They go out, get what they need, go do something else. However yes, there is still a 10% club that does still hit this fatigue. While I understand the frustration if you really enjoy clear-cutting LL all day, you must also realize that SE is trying to limit gathering not just for RMT reasons (although yes, that played into it), but also to control market flooding etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
Now I also see where you're coming from with the fatigue on DOM/DOW too , but it's just not something you could implement. Mostly because unlike a gatherer, a DOW/DOM can be 'actively' killing/doing stuff all day and never once be 'farming' for mats/profit. Whereas, a gatherer, can only gather, which by it's very nature is 'farming' for mats/profit.
Once someone's done leveling the class, it IS very possible they spend 12+ hours on a Saturday playing the same class/job...and never 'farm' a thing. Example:
8:00AM Login, fix gears get dressed as CNJ/WHM
8:15-10:15 Solo a couple company leves for seals.
10:15-12:15 Help some linkshell mates do AF quests/get AF gear
12:15-1:00 AFK in town (eating etc in RL)
1:00-3:30 Ifrit
3:30-5:00 Chocobo Caravan w/ full party of friends
5:00-6:00 AFK in town (eating etc RL)
6:00-10:00 Cutter's Cry runs with LS
Now, a gatherer who spends the same amount of time actively doing stuff in the world only has ONE thing to do atm in game....gather. That's a lot, I mean a lot, of gathering for one person to do in one day. This is why it got limited. In all honesty, it would be more pro-active to ask for other tasks,quests,storylines etc that can keep gatherer's busy other than simply gathering for personal mats/profit. -
04-07-2012, 09:54 AMLux_RaynaWell as I said its very high apparently. I can tell you i mine 2 hours every day without any problems at all, so if you're that worried about it just be a bit less hardcore about your gathering. If you start failing even tho you're hitting the right spot youll know you need to stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by LemmingKingXXX
I do have to agree that the system can't be too transparent, otherwise its job as a deterrent would completely fail. Its high enough now that "too much" is really too much in that its easy to tell when to stop. The old system obviously was fail, since the bar was so low that you needed that transparency in order to gather regularly at all. Now i'd argue that its a void issue unless you are trying to gather for 6+ hours a day. In that case, just don't. A few hours at a time and I'm sure you'll be fine. -
04-07-2012, 10:23 AMPeptaru
That's something that does bug me though Kinsey. If a DoM/DoW can get on and play DoW/DoM all day because it is what they enjoy the most. DoH can craft all day because its what they enjoy most.... Why then is DoL restricted from doing what they enjoy the most? They say anti-RMT, but RMT make their gil from battlecraft leves and ALC bots.
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04-07-2012, 11:13 AMAirgetYou're missing the point lol. If there is no fatigue on material gathering then the market could easily be flooded by 100 stacks of 99 items because there's no limit over how much one person can obtain. That's why there is gathering fatigue, but even with the cap now it's still easy for one person to flood the market with a material based on the current cap as well as knowing the favored spot for each material. Gathering still needs a lot of tweaks to it but one of them won't be removing fatigue cause it's the only logical way to control the flow of materials in the market with the current gathering concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
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04-07-2012, 11:28 AMPeptaru
If people wanted to flood the market like that (which would be stupid anyway) they could with an extra character or so on. That wouldn't benefit the market flooders, either. Farming for my own stuff, stuff for friends, stuff that gets npc'd. DoH can flood markets (and do) like noboby's business. if its already easy to flood the market, then let's DROP THE FATIGUE~ You can only gather 30 times now before you gotta change! lol.... If its already easy, then the system must be ineffective as is.
As an aside, people doing DoH leves can flood markets, too. albeit it less often. -
04-07-2012, 03:18 PMKinseykinzDon't get me wrong, I wasn't saying it was fair to DOL, just giving an explanation why. I just think our time would be better spent asking for ways to include DOL/DOH classes in the overall content and game more. It sounds like gatherers and crafters will have some stuff to do once Hamlet defense comes out, but really, it'd be nice if Gatherers/crafters had some content that was more on par and of the scale of the Battleclasses dungeons etc. I am not sure how this could be done however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
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04-07-2012, 06:06 PMPeptaru
I think it was some of the original intent to make DoH/L feasible as main jobs, but now they've said somethin like it won't work and they're going for a battle heavy path instead.
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04-08-2012, 08:02 AMLux_RaynaDoL is the only class that can effectively control the economy, and something like that *needs* limits. Unlike most games, FFXIV lives and breathes off of mats and crafted materials. Almost all of your gear is obtained through crafting, minus dungeon/primal drops. Because of this, collection of materials needs to be closely monitored, or a select few ppl would be able to control the entire market by creating several monopolies over specific materials. This kills competition, which allows the one in control to set the prices of things. Now every crafter is doomed to pay ridiculous amounts of gil for mats, which in turn makes all items crafted ridiculously expensive. Course you can't easily sell mats to pay for the gear because the other guy will undercut you until you give up or take very small profits. And yes, ppl *would* do this. There are a lot of jerks in the world, especially on nets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
While I agree the limit doesn't prevent market flooding cuz its so high, it does prevent monopoly. And it is monopoly that ruins game markets; FFXIV's market is especially fragile since most gear comes from crafting, and not random mob drops as in other games. As a result, it is prudent that gathering be limited. -
04-08-2012, 08:19 AMPeptaru
Crafters control the markets now and that's okay, but DoL isn't allowed to, kthx. Now i know, and knowing is half the battle!! God forbid a ton more ingredients came into play and made everything more affordable. OMG NO! You cannot monopolize a DoL market, you can only flood it by allowing people to gather more.
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04-08-2012, 11:52 PMTheVedisit is pretty high, you have to get in 600+ hits at the least before you start to get auto damages, and usualy i see it closer to the 800th hitQuote:
Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna
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04-08-2012, 11:53 PMTheVediscrafters DO NOT control the market, they are too busy undercutting each other to make a profit, and 99% of what they are trying to sell is worth less then the materials that it takes to make itQuote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
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04-09-2012, 06:31 AMPeptaruOverpaying for materials, undercutting to sell their items.... They may not be smart, but that is exactly what control is. They could refuse to pay that much for materials, as several people i know personally do, and stop undercutting if they wanted to. Just because they're idiots doesn't mean they don't have control.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVedis
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04-09-2012, 06:41 AMLux_RaynaI think you're misunderstanding what it means to have control. Crafters can't craft anything without mats, and they depend on gatherers for those mats. Its not that they choose to overpay, they don't have a choice outside of gathering large quantities themselves. They *have* to overpay for those mats or go on strike until gatherers lower their prices. But if you are on strike you are not making money, nor making anything. Plus there's no guarantee we'd lower our prices because gatherers can wait crafters out. Whether someone buys my mats or not I can still gather. But the same guy can't craft without mats, its impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
The economy always goes back to mats. Crafters undercutting each other isn't control, its competition. Plus that result works out better for dow/dom jobs who need those finished items and want them at cheaper prices. This isn't even touching upon the fact that you can gather things way faster than ppl can craft them, thereby making it easier to flood and control the market. -
04-09-2012, 06:52 AMPeptaru
If crafters don't buy materials for a week, two weeks, two days, however long it takes they'll get cheaper. Gathering people with 3000 ore to sell either have to reduce prices or stop gathering. See how long it takes gatherers to drop their prices if they can't sell anything. I know you won't understand this, so I give up.
Crafters do not HAVE to overpay. They choose to because they're stupid. To reference "if you are on strike you are not making money" guess what.... neither are the gatherers... Seeing as how gathering supply can easily outpace crafting requirements.... really? REALLY?.... are you still not getting it? -
04-09-2012, 07:54 AMLux_RaynaBut at the end of the day its the gatherers that set the price. If we never choose to drop our prices crafters will be forced to buy them. They just don't have a say in the matter. They can try waiting us out, and we might drop our prices, but crafters don't get to decide waht the price is gonna be. At the end of the day, they have to buy what we sell them at the price we sell it. The demand for the finished product in question will force any crafter to buy the mats to make it. Its not that they're stupid, they just realize there's no way in heck you will get every crafter on the server to not buy something. There are no unions on FFXIV lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
Crafters have to overpay *if* we refuse to lower the price. They absolutely have to, or no one is crafting and no one is getting gear. As I said they *might* get us to lower the price, but they dont get to decide the price. Crafters aren't powerless, but they really aren't the ones in control of the situation. Ppl need gear, so crafters need mats. They can try holding out for lower prices but that would require an impossible amount of united effort lolQuote:
Crafters do not HAVE to overpay. They choose to because they're stupid. To reference "if you are on strike you are not making money" guess what.... neither are the gatherers... Seeing as how gathering supply can easily outpace crafting requirements.... really? REALLY?.... are you still not getting it?
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04-09-2012, 07:58 AMPeptaru
Which takes us back to the main point I made, crafters have control, they're just too stupid to work together. Its easier to say "we don't control the market", go complain about prices on the forums, then still overpay for materials. If the gatherers can hold out so easily and keep their price.... why can't the crafters keep refusing to buy? Stupidity.
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04-11-2012, 08:19 AMLux_RaynaWell probably because gatherers are *just* selling. A crafter is producing. Sure he might sell his product, but he almost might be making that product for someone else. Or he might make it for himself. Or he might be simply trying to level up. There's a lot more pressure on crafters than there are on gatherers. I still wont call it stupidity, its just caving in to pressure. Its hard when ppl in your ls want crafted items, or you want crafted items, or you need to get this once piece melded that you keep breaking; there is so much need for finished goods that crafters dont have the liberty of waiting 2 weeks for ore prices to drop. Who's gonna wait that long? Almost nobody lol...after all patience is not much of a virtue anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peptaru
The only reason gatherers can wait all day is because they have nothing better to do with it. Not like any of us *need* it to sell. We could just as easily log on our dow/dom jobs and enjoy the game while we wait for it to sell. Heck we can farm somethign else and try to sell that. Of all positions gatherers have the most leverage. It really isn't stupidity, resistance is completely futile. It is a practical impossibility for crafters to wait out gatherers, since there will always be the few rich ppl who will buy it at any price because gil is no object. Additionally, its almost impossible to get 8 ppl to work together for some purpose, much less every crafter in an entire server.
Really gatherers have all the advantage. Crafters only get to assert their power when they price gouge us for finished goods. But there's so much competition that they effectively drive the prices down of their own products. Now *that* is stupid. -
08-15-2012, 10:45 AMDocent
To put some numbers up in front, I've been recently gathering lots of cobalt ore (Iron lake) and oak logs (Camp Glory).
Thanks to the achievements, I can tell that I've hit 912 nodes in Iron Lake so far, and I know I've been there only twice, as stopped both times when gathering fatigue started to show up.
That means it's around 450 harvests before fatigue starts. Now you can resume discussions.
Edit #1:
After chopping trees for slightly above 3 hours non stop, I am starting to see breaks. Napkin maths from my yield tells me I'm at ~455 harvests at the moment. For posterity's sake, I'll now write down my approximate break ratios for the next 17,000 xp (100 harvests, give or take) because I want to hit Bot37 before I leave the area.
Edit #2:
So here's my findings after grinding for about one more hour, slugging through fatigue to botanist 37.
-It took me 130 harvests after the first break to ding Botanist 37.
-I had a total of 47 breaks in those 130 harvests. A break provides only half XP, and yields no item, shard or dark matter. A break CAN proc special abilities, such as Sweat of Brow.
-After the 1st break, it took 24 harvests before another showed up.
-If we only look at the statistics after the 2nd break, the ratio is 46 breaks for 105 harvests, or a 46% break rate.
-By the 100th harvest, the break rate seemed slightly higher, as one tree yielded 6 breaks out of 7 harvests. It's still just a matter of luck, as I had others with only 2 breaks.
-Ever since the 2nd break, not a single tree produced 7/7 harvests properly.
Before the first break, I have gathered:
233 Chocobo Feathers,
11 Chocobo Feathers +1,
371 Oak Logs,
8 Oak Logs +1,
422 Oak Branches,
9 Oak Branches +1
In those 130 harvests, I have gathered:
59 Chocobo Feathers,
74 Oak Logs,
63 Oak Branches,
4 Oak Branches +1.