Frustrating behavior in Rival Wings (The Moogle Tomestones)

So I was curious as to why my team was constantly on the losing streak, and ended up finding people were AFKing in other alliances.

This is frustrating for the fact I think these people here just want those moogle tomestones, and purposely losing in their minds is the fastest way for it to happen...

To find out my alliances were screwed from the start from bad behavior like this is very discouraging.

They need add a minimum participation requirement in order to receive any rewards from PvP in general, IMO.

It could be a certain amount of assists, damage dealt/healed, fuel gathered, or really just anything to ensure people are actually trying in some form or fashion.

Granted, that would likely just lead to people setting up bots again, but I'd rather have a bot on my team that does nothing but attack mammets (This was a thing in Astrologos back when PvP actually gave decent EXP) then a totally deadweight player.

The tomestones should be given only to the winner team, or something like losing team only gets 3, mid team 4 and winner team 5, at best it's an incentive to actually participate and at worst keeps those that leech/feel 'forced' to PvP away.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

The tomestones should be given only to the winner team, or something like losing team only gets 3, mid team 4 and winner team 5, at best it's an incentive to actually participate and at worst keeps those that leech/feel 'forced' to PvP away.

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Rival Wings is only two teams, but I do think this is a good idea.
I would 'round out' the 5 tomestones as 4 tomestones for completing it, and a bonus 2 tomestones for winning.
For those who just do it casually, you should, on average, win as much as you lose, so the net gain when running it multiple times won't be too different, but there's still incentive to actually win.

Changing the rewards doesn't do anything. The behavior is in most duties perceived as casual. Look at FL when exp was introduced, it didn't change either for RW. I rather they fix the idle-kick timer, make it action based instead of movement based.

There should just be a minimum participation requirement to get rewards. If you sit in a corner and do nothing, you get nothing.

I dunno about you, but those who would AFK wouldn't 'try hard' to just get 1 extra tome, as it would technically be quicker to get 4 and then requeue than fight and "put in effort" for another 5-10 minutes.

I rather they just keep the winning and losing team getting 5, but be allowed the entire alliance to kick players if they do literally nothing. The real way to punish AFKers or those who just run in circles to avoid the 'afk' warning is to deny them their rewards. Is there a way to view the scoreboards at any given moment? It'll be helpful if there was. Get a full alliance to vote kick seems ideal. It'll allow vote kicking of an entire party if that entire party was planning on AFKing as a group and prevent those who have the elitist mindset of vote kicking people who do poorly as majority has to agree (and from my experience of running this multiple times, most PvP players are casuals and don't mind as long as you put some effort). The only real possibility I would see the entire alliance wanting to kick someone for doing so poorly is if they are intentionally dying to speed up the game (and people will notice this if you're constantly rushing to enemy lines alone) or just doing nothing - no damage, no healing, no Cereleum points, nothing.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

There should just be a minimum participation requirement to get rewards. If you sit in a corner and do nothing, you get nothing.

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Agreed, there should be minimum amount of movement (actually changing location, not running into a wall) and other activity per minute. If someone is found not participating the results window should say something like "You could have got X, Y and, Z but you Got NOTHING! cuz you did nothing!" :D

There's really no good solution to this problem. The issue is that the people are there strictly for the rewards rather than for the game play and before this event hardly anyone even did Rival Wings except on days where the discord went active. The only way to fix this problem is to find a way to make the PvP fun rather than frustrating.

Heck, before this point everyone who knew how to PvP seemed to be on maelstrom so the development team ended up randomizing everyone, thus killing any team building benefits. On top of which it was already near impossible to organize a full team since the max you could bring into Rival Wings is 4, which it still is. Sometimes, your worst enemy is another alpha male type player in the group steering people into making costly decisions at the wrong times, or everyone goes mercenary and grabs cerulium so that no one can get the Opressor online fast enough.

Edit: Also, they need to stop doing these 10% damage reduction cooldown abilities. They feel like they got no impact on the results of a fight with multiple opponents and tanks should just have a skill that makes them damage immune. Yes, the paladin has it. Yes, all the tanks should have that as a built in.

afk players are kicked normally pretty fast in pvp, maybe there are so many of them now that it's not possible.

I was kicked from a Rival Wings match last night for politely encouraging an AFK teammate to participate in the match.

Tomestones should only be given to the winnner. Too many people trying to lose as fast as possible. Same thing happened last time too. I'm staying out of it this round.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Tomestones should only be given to the winnner. Too many people trying to lose as fast as possible. Same thing happened last time too. I'm staying out of it this round.

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I kinda prefer the participation rewards method. Because I rather have something to show for my efforts instead of wasting my time getting paired up with losers and never getting anything (plus the mode needs mogtomes and the discord to stay alive). So I would propose disproportionately increasing the rewards the winners gets. 5000 WM, enough EXP to level up and 50-100 moogle tomestones.

That way people can still get something to show for their efforts AND have an incentive to win

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

enough EXP to level up and 50-100 moogle tomestones.

That way people can still get something to show for their efforts AND have an incentive to win

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They also have an incentive to stop playing it after 2 wins then.
The idea is the right one, but you have to adjust it carefully then. Rival wings is picked by many because its time efficient to farm the moogle tomestones with it. If it is less efficient than PvE stuff than it will likely be inactive. They should do something like base win/lose values like 3 for win and 1 for lose and on top of that you get for every 5min matchtime an extra tomestone for both teams. [ So max values of a 20min match would be 7 for wining team and 5 for losing team, if you afk it will be over in 5min and you only get 1 for losing, which would be super bad]
But I can see it being 2 much dev work for them to make this happening, even though I think it would be the most fair and would solve the participation problem while still keeping rival wings attractive.

To be honest if my team threw the match due to the on going reward, I wouldn’t mind. PVP is only alive due to the rewards that are being pumped into them. You can punish and attempt to stop people from being AFK all you want. It won’t fix the core PVP problem in this game. If PVP in this game was actually fun then you wouldn’t need a reward to force people to play your game.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

To be honest if my team threw the match due to the on going reward, I wouldn’t mind. PVP is only alive due to the rewards that are being pumped into them. You can punish and attempt to stop people from being AFK all you want. It won’t fix the core PVP problem in this game. If PVP in this game was actually fun then you wouldn’t need a reward to force people to play your game.

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Almost nobody does any content if it doesn't give some type of reward.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Almost nobody does any content if it doesn't give some type of reward.

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A reward shouldn't be the sole reason to play PvP, it should be an added bonus for something that should be enjoyable. The content would be burned through and dropped as soon as whatever reward was gotten. PvP in this game is dog poop. It sucks. Players should want to compete, not doing some throwaway content, a means to an end. I agree with the quote here. Which leads to a bigger issue, that most of the content in this game is throwaway content. That is for another thread though.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I was kicked from a Rival Wings match last night for politely encouraging an AFK teammate to participate in the match.

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People are stupid and will often just hit "yes" on a vote dismiss prompt without actually looking at who's being kicked if someone says something to suggest someone needs to be kicked.

I've seen the "AFK" players be the ones to initiate the dismiss on the ones calling them out because they know people will often take the bait.

This will all die down when the event is over. Just like the mode itself.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

A reward shouldn't be the sole reason to play PvP, it should be an added bonus for something that should be enjoyable. The content would be burned through and dropped as soon as whatever reward was gotten. PvP in this game is dog poop. It sucks. Players should want to compete, not doing some throwaway content, a means to an end. I agree with the quote here. Which leads to a bigger issue, that most of the content in this game is throwaway content. That is for another thread though.

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I somewhat agree. There should still be some kind of infinite progress, as there is, like rankings in the feast or litterally just frontlines win/loss ratio each season. These simple means of progression are present in almost all pvp matchmaking oriented games and I think they're an important bonus to motivate people to play, it could be as simple as unlimited leveling like in Overwatch, something that makes it feel like your efforts get absorbed in some way.

Imo all content should firstly be done for fun instead of rewards but that's just not how most people play MMOs it seems. I don't know if PVP in this game is really bad since I don't know much about the PVP in general, but what I do know is that I find it fun to do every now and then.

In my opinion, the losing team should only get 4 tomestones and the winning team should be awarded 8. I imagine the incentive to win double the amount of tomestones than if you had lost would motivate more people to put in an effort than right now- knowing that win or lose they get the same "prize." The coddling with equal participation trophies in a competitive mode is just tiresome.

I'm also willing to bet that the JP community doesn't have this problem on the same level, so I imagine the devs don't feel the need to change anything in regards to some players purposely attempting to be "dead weight" to an active hindrance.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

People are stupid and will often just hit "yes" on a vote dismiss prompt without actually looking at who's being kicked if someone says something to suggest someone needs to be kicked.

I've seen the "AFK" players be the ones to initiate the dismiss on the ones calling them out because they know people will often take the bait.

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Yeah, it's a real shame. Luckily it's only happened to me once in...seven years of playing the game, so I won't lose any sleep over it.

I do like the approach of how XP and Wolf Marks are done, and think it would have worked here. You always get a reward, but you get more if you win. Carefully balanced so you still feel you got something if you tried your best but still lost, while still being rewarding to make first place feel extra good.

I see people saying "Some people will still AFK." Yeah, of course, though these things are always incremental changes to push a greater number of players towards a desired outcome. If you are getting more tomestones for winning, that will get more participation and more competitive integrity, yielding overall higher quality matches for those actually interested in playing the game. The more you leverage tomestones, the greater the outcome to some degree.

I feel like on top of the bonus for winning they ought to give a bonus for being a MVP regardless of win/lose.

That would further discourage people from slacking off if they could get extra rewards from getting a high amount of assists/kills, damage dealt, fuel gathered, etc.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

In my opinion, the losing team should only get 4 tomestones and the winning team should be awarded 8. I imagine the incentive to win double the amount of tomestones than if you had lost would motivate more people to put in an effort than right now- knowing that win or lose they get the same "prize."

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You cant force people who couldn't begin to care as much as you. The path of least resistance will always be taken and you'd be decimating the popularity of content to try to get people to play more to your liking. I could easily see people going to Praetorium to afk or bot Aurum Vale. because a handful of people on the forums made it so the thousands could get a penalty.

And why is everyone talking like they'll adjust overnight? The content is being run, working as intended.

I'm on the side of "don't give rewards if people don't actively partecipate". Luckily on my datacenter I haven't seen any afkers yet, though sometimes there are those "let's just lose quickly".

I honestly started doing it dragged by friends and because of event rewards, but I got hooked to it right away and it's currently my favourite in game activity. I had only tried the other two formats before and I don't consider those fun, so I was preconcieved (I also hate pvp in most mmos but when I find a format I like I fall in love instead) but it was a pleasant surprise and it sucks knowing it's dead outside of event.

So uh this Discord, you mean there's a specific discord for RW or just pvpaissa?

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They need add a minimum participation requirement in order to receive any rewards from PvP/PVE in general, IMO.

It could be a certain amount of assists, damage dealt/healed, fuel gathered, or really just anything to ensure people are actually trying in some form or fashion.

Granted, that would likely just lead to people setting up bots again, but I'd rather have a bot on my team that does nothing but attack mammets (This was a thing in Astrologos back when PvP actually gave decent EXP) then a totally deadweight player.

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Fixed that but I completely agree. :P

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Originally Posted by Cidel

In my opinion, the losing team should only get 4 tomestones and the winning team should be awarded 8. I imagine the incentive to win double the amount of tomestones than if you had lost would motivate more people to put in an effort than right now- knowing that win or lose they get the same "prize." The coddling with equal participation trophies in a competitive mode is just tiresome.

I'm also willing to bet that the JP community doesn't have this problem on the same level, so I imagine the devs don't feel the need to change anything in regards to some players purposely attempting to be "dead weight" to an active hindrance.

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Also, people will probably get to appreciate the gamemode more when they actually try to win for which they'll need to learn the ins and out and make an effort. Higher chance they'll stick to the gamemode after the event (be it at random times or during the weekly community events).

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

To be honest if my team threw the match due to the on going reward, I wouldn’t mind.
If PVP in this game was actually fun then you wouldn’t need a reward to force people to play your game.

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Nobody forces you. There are alternatives. People actually have fun in the mode and you potentially ruin it for them because you think it sucks?! This behavior isn't accepted in PvE and it shouldn't be in PvP... If you hate PvP let people who enjoy it play it..

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Imo all content should firstly be done for fun instead of rewards but that's just not how most people play MMOs it seems. I

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Or other stuff, either... too many only play for the E-Pe### >_>

People who don't want to play a game strikes again, nothing new. Manual report and kick solve this problem.

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

So uh this Discord, you mean there's a specific discord for RW or just pvpaissa?

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Maybe they mean Revival Wings, a Discord entirely dedicated to the game mode, and keeping it going between patches. Bless their hearts.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

Maybe they mean Revival Wings, a Discord entirely dedicated to the game mode, and keeping it going between patches. Bless their hearts.

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Thanks a lot!!

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Also, people will probably get to appreciate the gamemode more when they actually try to win for which they'll need to learn the ins and out and make an effort. Higher chance they'll stick to the gamemode after the event (be it at random times or during the weekly community events).

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What a hopeful outlook on the playerbase. I'm happy for you. But uh, check out all those nerf threads in the past.