TL;DR - SCH gets Ruin IV-esque stacks for current non-damaging Aetherflow abilities.
Balance dependent on how many maximum stacks you allow. Probably 6 or 9.
I was talking to a friend and trying to decide whether to go AST or SCH for Ucob considering that we only had access to our level 70 kit.
After spit balling for a few minutes and comparing kits I realized once again (even though I thought I knew how bad it was) how punished SCH is for using their healing/support Aetherflow skills.
This came to me when I realized that even though AST has higher on demand shielding(1GCD+1oGCD(60CD) = 500 potency aoe shield) in exchange for a gambling 750 aoe shield(1GCDcrit +1oGCD(90) = 750(375 no crit) potency aoe shield) the real deal breaker was collective unconscious compared to Sacred Soil.
You might say, "But SCH has Fey Illumination." And I would say, "You're right."
But that's not the point, the point is it forced me to realize once again even with Sacred Soil only having a 50% down time Collective was still better in the fact that it doesn't require you to stand under it, lasts longer(even with a tap) and doesn't punish you for using it when used properly. Despite this you're still punished for using Sacred Soil over Energy Drain. I always knew you were punished as a SCH for healing in comparison to AST' free healing but for some reason this specific point made me want to share this system I thought up on the spot during that conversation.
Aetherflow(60CD)(Buff) - Gives 3 stacks of Aetherflow which allows you to use Energy Drain.
Energy Drain(3CD) - Damages the enemy and gives 1 stack of Aethertune which allows you to use your previous non-damage Aetherflow abilities.
Aethertune(buff) - Effectively Ruin IV/Egi Assault permanent buff but for previous non-damaging Aetherflow abilities.
Faerie Gauge is exactly the same it just only gains stacks off of Energy Drain now. Dissipation can work exactly the same or you can change it depending on how balanced you want the change to be.
The initial idea that I got while having the conversation stops there but upon thinking of it further I think there is room for an even more similar Lily > Misery/Dreadwyrm Trance-esque mechanics to be attached to Aethertune. Maybe you guys can help me think of something to add onto it I just wanted to put this down somewhere so I can remember it later.
Thanks.
How Energy Drain and Aetherflow healing should work.
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05-19-2020, 12:49 PMNetherealHow Energy Drain and Aetherflow healing should work.
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05-19-2020, 03:08 PMGeminaI stopped here, because I want to break something down for you. At least from how I see things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethereal
"Punished" boils down to having to use GCDs on non-offensive skills. SCH being the primary barrier healer of the group suffers the most from this as both Galvanize and Catalyze status effects are tied to GCDs. By having the 'penalty' of using GCDs for support instead of damage taken away (very similar to WHM lily mechanic), you are basically asking for even more DPS uptime on SCH. This basically tacks on 300pot damage to the enemy each time the SCH uses a barrier. You need to understand that this makes SCH ridiculously OP, or they would have to make pot adjustments on their other skills to compensate; OR they disseminate those high potency increases for SCH among all the other jobs making them wonder why some of their skills had a bit of potency shaved off of them.
Ideally, the green-DPS SCH would love to spend all their aetherflow skills on Energy Drain, and when you cross this line you're basically making them a watered down SMN with the ability to ST/AoE Earthern Ward on demand. You probably can see where I am going to go with this.
Proceeding onward, Savage/Ultimate peeps would have to crunch hard numbers for you comparing SS to CO. For me, the fact that I can place SS wherever I want while on the move completely trumps any potency advantages CO has over SS. There are also intangible factors at play. As an example, most players see a beneficial bubble and think, "standing in this = good"; in contrast, not all players are aware of the residual effects of CO, and if you truly want to optimize CO, all players have to be in its radius when you fire it off.
Not everything is as it appears on paper. If you spend a good portion of time playing both AST and SCH, these things will make themselves known to you, and you can truly decide which one your playstyle favors. And that is really what it comes down to. Things like SS vs CO isn't going to make or break or party comp, and are supposed to compliment each other during an encounter. SCH shields are THE PERFECT example of how healer GCDs should be used. They feel really powerful and beneficial, so you don't really give a thought about the loss to DPS.
Free healing is actually a problem, and a big one at that. It, along with the lack of DPS skills are the two biggest contributors to healer boredom. SCH isn't getting Ruin IV; see above comment about the watered down SMN. -
05-19-2020, 07:38 PMNetherealWhile this is true I consider this to simply be a part of every class being "punished" for using anything that isn't a dps skill when not during down it's not something specific to any one class or healer. What I'm specifically talking about is that every use of Aetherflow on anything that isn't ED is a 150 potency dps loss that cannot be recovered. Using Lilies when you would have to GCD heal is a DPS GAIN of 225 if you reach misery. If you're weaving properly you'll have 200 potency from ruin 2 but you still lost 150 potency from not using ED.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Now you might think these situations are exactly the same, they're not simply because properly using ED is always a DPS GAIN where as Lilies are in terms of being a dps skill is a DPS Loss.
You can completely ignore Lilies and not lose any dps whatsoever, the same is not true for Aetherflow healing and ED.
The only time Lilies are a complete DPS GAIN is when used during complete down time, however if you would have had to GCD on anything besides Glare or Dia they're a DPS GAIN because you would have lost the 225 potency provided by the Lily. Which would have been completely lost just like ED potency if you were to use it on something else. Though even then they're still different in that Aetherflow and ED you want to have on CD as fast as possible so you can fit as many EDs into the fight as possible where as for Lilies you only want to be able to fit as many Miseries in the fight as to how many Lilies you used. E.G. in a vacuum for DPS you would never Lily (unless there was a point in time where the target becomes untargetable), the opposite is true for Aetherflow and ED.
Now lets compare the situations as a SCH if I were to GCD heal I would lose 280 potency from not using broil and 117 potency from ED clipping the broil, a total of 397 potency. WHM gained 225 potency from GCD healing and SCH lost 280 without the broil, 397 with an ED. Lets say I ruin 2 instead of broil and then weave a oGCD heal instead of a GCD heal. That's still a 80 potency loss just from not using broil and a 197 potency loss if you add the ED. So unless I'm using aetherflow on anything except ED I'm being punished for oGCD healing and that's with using ruin 2 and not clipping.
To clarify using a Lily over Glare is a 75 potency loss, using anything besides ED during ruin 2 is a 230 potency loss. 150 for not using ED and 80 for using ruin 2. If you were to GCD it would be a 280 without ED and 397 with ED.
Also because Lilies are a GCD they're a good way to not clip your oGCDs. They are fundamentally different in that one is a gain and the other is mitigation of sorts.
Actually what this does is exactly the same as Lilies. Where as Lilies give back dps for GCDs this new method would simply not punish you for healing, though effectively it does give back dps the same way lilies do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Say if you were to use a Lily instead of GCD heal you would gain 225 potency. If you were to use an Aetherflow ability not ED you would lose 150. This gives back the 150 potency lost.
You could nerf the damage ED(probably down to 100) does since that damage is no longer completely lost but honestly even if you didn't nerf the damage it wouldn't make SCH OP at all. While it might pull away from AST more in personal dps it still wouldn't beat WHM just come closer to it. And if you're wondering if that would put AST in an awkward position, it wouldn't they have the highest rDPS.
Not really, no. They're the same coin each preoccupying a different side. The fact they're similar does not mean one is the other or vice versa. They're specializations of theQuote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
same class, similarities should not be something uncommon.
A valid point. They're two sides to the same coin, one is stationary and has range versatility except you're punished for using it. The other close range with player mobility and completely free. As for the radius it's not much different from using a cure 3. Nor do people need to understand what it does as long as they get hit by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
I play all 3 healers and having cleared the tier on AST I much prefer the free heals compared to punished heals and the reliably stronger shields versus the sometimes stronger shields tied to a 90 sec cd versus a 60 second one. That and like you said with SS, being able to shield while on the move at all times(Nocturnal Aspected Benefic) and having more potency than SCH (without a crit) is nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
The fact Nocturnal Aspect Helios is stronger than Succor irks me quite a bit. Shields in general feel powerful and beneficial especially now that it's showed how much shielding is actually given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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05-19-2020, 09:44 PMBobsmiaw
Don't forget that SCH has fairy gauge.
Every time you use AF stack for both healing and ED, you gain some point for healing in a form of fairy gauge.
I prefer to do some DPS that grant bonus to healing (opposite of WHM Lily).
Maybe SE can fix our fairy responsiveness issue first then add more more healing ability to the fairy.
SCH AF system is like a double edge sword.
On one side, it give the class a great opportunity for optimization.
On the other side, it punish you a lot if you have to heal using AF (Maybe this is why SE remove ED at the start of 5.0) -
05-20-2020, 12:10 AMKDSilver
Or how to give SCH the deadly blow.
Lost most its flavor over expansions, let's keep removing some. -
05-20-2020, 12:22 AMRongwayYou're lucky you have Energy Drain at all. It exists as a stack dump so that you have "something" to spend your stacks on when Aetherflow is almost done cooling down but you still have stacks because you haven't needed to spend your stacks on healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethereal
You're not punished for using your stacks for heals and wards. That's what they're for. -
05-20-2020, 02:54 AMGeminaAetherflow is not nor ever was intended to be a DPS tool for SCH. This is a very distinct difference between them and SMN. Energy Drain is a dump skill, or free DPS for the SCH. Even if healer DMG was factored into savage/ultimate clears, they would not be able to use the DMG provided from ED.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethereal
I only brought up WHM lilies to express a return for lost dmg due to GCD usage. Fact of the matter is the two mechanics function very differently even though both are used for instant healing. You can never lose DPS from aetherflow expenditure on other skills because ED is free DPS. You just won't gain any of that DPS. Another matter altogether is you are a healer first. Always. This means any and all your resources are prioritized based on needed heals. If this is a problem for you, this role will never provide you with fulfillment especially with the direction the devs are and have been going with them.
You can certainly make a case in terms of comparable DPS to other healers. I did point out that SCH is very GCD dependant on their shields. If there is an imbalance, they would have to look at pot increases for Broil, or perhaps even returning Shadowflare to us to compensate. But such a corrective adjustment won't happen through ED because it is an aetherflow skill.Quote:
Now lets compare the situations as a SCH if I were to GCD heal I would lose 280 potency from not using broil and 117 potency from ED clipping the broil, a total of 397 potency. WHM gained 225 potency from GCD healing and SCH lost 280 without the broil, 397 with an ED. Lets say I ruin 2 instead of broil and then weave a oGCD heal instead of a GCD heal. That's still a 80 potency loss just from not using broil and a 197 potency loss if you add the ED. So unless I'm using aetherflow on anything except ED I'm being punished for oGCD healing and that's with using ruin 2 and not clipping.
To clarify using a Lily over Glare is a 75 potency loss, using anything besides ED during ruin 2 is a 230 potency loss. 150 for not using ED and 80 for using ruin 2. If you were to GCD it would be a 280 without ED and 397 with ED.
Also because Lilies are a GCD they're a good way to not clip your oGCDs. They are fundamentally different in that one is a gain and the other is mitigation of sorts.
No. Because lilies are on the GCD. SCH never has to sacrifice a Broil cast to use an aetherflow skill. I don't even know you're getting Broil being clipped by ED as it is ogcd. You clip your Broils by using Ruin 2 or Biolysis, which can be negated if you can also weave ED. These are all DPS gains for the SCH and help to keep their DPS comparable to WHM and AST. Especially if the SCH has well-timed Ruin 2s by using them when they know the boss is going to transition, or otherwise know there is no avoiding a GCD loss and squeeze in the extra 200 pot before it happens. SCH is the only healer currently capable of doing this consistently without overwriting an active DoT.Quote:
Actually what this does is exactly the same as Lilies. Where as Lilies give back dps for GCDs this new method would simply not punish you for healing, though effectively it does give back dps the same way lilies do.
Say if you were to use a Lily instead of GCD heal you would gain 225 potency. If you were to use an Aetherflow ability not ED you would lose 150. This gives back the 150 potency lost.
You could nerf the damage ED(probably down to 100) does since that damage is no longer completely lost but honestly even if you didn't nerf the damage it wouldn't make SCH OP at all. While it might pull away from AST more in personal dps it still wouldn't beat WHM just come closer to it. And if you're wondering if that would put AST in an awkward position, it wouldn't they have the highest rDPS.
Their similarities should end at the level each receives their soulstone. I cannot express how important it is that each of their respective aetherflow skills reflect their roles in a party. As another poster stated, we are lucky to even have ED. The only reason why we do is because it was necessary to give us a dump skill, and dmg is the default choice. I wouldn't even get used to the DMG it causes now, because SE could take that away entirely and make it a hard MP restore skill.Quote:
Not really, no. They're the same coin each preoccupying a different side. The fact they're similar does not mean one is the other or vice versa. They're specializations of the
same class, similarities should not be something uncommon.
AST isn't exempt from "punished heals" either. In fact their APM is so ridiculously high that it is outright impossible for them to avoid it. Aspected skills are still on the GCD, and Helios still has to be casted or use up an ability to reduce the cast time.Quote:
I play all 3 healers and having cleared the tier on AST I much prefer the free heals compared to punished heals and the reliably stronger shields versus the sometimes stronger shields tied to a 90 sec cd versus a 60 second one. That and like you said with SS, being able to shield while on the move at all times(Nocturnal Aspected Benefic) and having more potency than SCH (without a crit) is nice.
The fact Nocturnal Aspect Helios is stronger than Succor irks me quite a bit. Shields in general feel powerful and beneficial especially now that it's showed how much shielding is actually given.
It really boils down to you preferring AST, and if this is the case, then use AST. They need the support actually as many find the job atrocious to play ATM. -
05-20-2020, 03:37 AMNethereal
I might post a more detailed response later in the day.
While ED was intended as a dump skill for aetherflow not using ED is a complete dps loss, this is a fact not opinion. There's a reason dissipation is part of your opener, because it's a dps gain. If you find this to be a problem then it's honestly probably SE's fault for making the issue.
It's definitely not free if you have to choose one way or the other, it goes against the very definition of the word. Free dps would be attaching a DoT on Sacred Soil. And not gaining any of that dps is what's called a dps loss.
TBH I liked it more when ED was gone. It let me use my aetherflow for healing and not feel punished. Granted not having a dump was fairly annoying but it was meh.
This is probably my fault for not clarifying it enough but SCH is a healer specific case when I talk about being punished for healing due to how aetherflow interacts. When I talk about being punished I mean SCH, specifically aetherflow oGCD healing. It is the only healer that actively loses dps for properly using healing oGCDs.
Every healer has to be "punished" for GCD healing not much to talk about there. Though I'm finding SCH to be a little more fun so I'm still not decided. -
05-20-2020, 04:23 AMLimoniaThat wouldn't be free dps though, because you would use it on cd for the dps, just like Assize, even if it were 100% overheal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethereal
But I have to agree completely with you. While I like to dps a lot as a healer, I don't like the idea of being punished for using oGCD heals. I don't like the current card system of AST, but I absolutely love their free oGCD heals because clipping is not an issue for AST. I also liked "being allowed" to freely use Aetherflow heals when we didn't have Energy Drain.
I know currently that would be even more boring, because now you at least have to think about if you use a heal instead of Energy Drain. It's like I wished Glare had the shorter cast time of Malefic, while some people like that WHM only has Dia and Afflatus heals to weave.
So when healers maybe get reworked someday, I hope that they not only get more interesting, but also more fluid to play. I like where they went with WHM's Afflatus heals for example. -
05-20-2020, 05:14 AMBillythepancake
What are with these responses saying to "get rid of energy drain". You aren't just clowns, you're the entire circus. SCH flat out does not work if there isn't at least 1 DPS button tied to aetherflow, full stop end of discussion. If you don't like how that's tied to a few healing abilities as well, therefore forcing you to decide whether or not it's worth taking the risk of getting more DPS or holding your stacks for a heal, then don't play SCH. That little bit of risk/reward with energy drain is literally all they have left, and they had to beg for over a month to even have that. If AST truly feels better because it has more free healing, then just play AST.
Should we get rid of GCD heals too? Because those also compete with DPS abilities. Of course not, while you should be minimizing the use of them there are times where you do absolutely need them. -
05-20-2020, 07:08 AMEaMett
A big point of the sch gameplay is the risk-reward from using stacks to heal vs ED. All other things aside your suggestion totally removes this.
Edit: Also liliy dps loss is the same as a single weave on sch. They're meant to align because they serve the same cost-weave ratio purpose. SCH isn't punished particularly more than WHM for healing on that front. When taking ED potential into consideration that changes healer pair coordination priorities but not the value of lost dps. Namely because the healing is still required regardless. You can chose to either save your ED and make your co-healer gcd heal or you can abandon the ED in favor of a co-healer GCD dps skill. -
05-20-2020, 07:35 AMNetherealFair point it would have to be a 100 potency AoE on cast for it to be true free dps. Though if there's multiple targets I guess the case would still stand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Limonia
I don't think anyone here is advocating for the deletion of ED, more so we're acknowledging that when you weren't punished for oGCD healing on SCH the trade off was you didn't have anything to use it on. The solution I thought of would fix both issues while keeping everything as close to the source material as possible while being flexible and retaining balance. SCH is the only healer that loses dps for using their healing oGCDs even when done properly. I can live with it but I also acknowledge it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billythepancake
I also don't think there's really much risk/reward once you've done a fight a few times unless someone makes a mistake. AST feels better because I'm not punished for oGCD healing but SCH is more aesthetically pleasing.
Getting rid of GCD heals? I don't know about that one if you need to GCD heal then that means if you don't you're going to die which means less dps.
I can see why you would think they're comparable since you'll always use aetherflow on a healing/support ability if you have it over letting someone die. The same is true for all the other healers the only difference is when they GCD or oGCD heal they don't permanently lose damage like SCH does by giving up an ED.
SCH is unique in the fact they're the only healer that has a damaging oGCD(Star and Assize both have healing and damage put together) tied to their healing oGCD kit that forces you to choose between the two as such they have a unique problem or as you would say risk/reward. If you want a true comparison it would be having a card already drawn on AST, not using said card and then drawing another card. All the dps you would've gained from that card you just discarded is completely lost you'll never get it back. Or even better using Dissipation when you still have stacks of aetherflow, yikes. -
05-20-2020, 12:10 PMClaire_Pendragon
Since energy drain is meant for you to use up the stacks, before the CD is ready, and u waste them... the easier "fix" (that no one will like) is to just give the MP amount of a single physic. Thats it. No damage dealt. (Sorta feels like a bad lustrate, because you didnt use lustrate) If you didnt need to do ANY healing, then its just more MP for nukes. Now it fills the same role its intended to fill, while also not feeling as punishing to your DPS. (Of course this shouldnt be the answer, but since ppl keep complaining about the current system, this is the only "fix" that fits what the devs want.)
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05-20-2020, 12:30 PMEaMettTechnically SCH is the only healer that has the option of extra dps in exchange for resources. Not the other way around. If you didn't have ED at all your healing windows would cost as much as whm for instance. ED doing damage is a bonus that other healers don't have. In that sense it isn't balanced, but lower sch potencies make it work. (SE's balance was way off on this one on expac release)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethereal
If ED did no damage you just wouldn't use them. Exactly like on the release of the expansion where you would do your ex trials without even refreshing aetherflow because the dps loss from creating weaving windows wasn't worth it. That would also completely negate dissipation as tool. Mana isn't even an issue to start with. Hard pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon
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05-20-2020, 03:32 PMSaefinn
I think it feels "punishing" because they already stripped us naked of many of our DPS abilities. But actually Energy Drain is a dump if you have excess aetherflow and not as intended as part of your core DPS rotation, but does add a little to our DPS. As awful as it is our DPS rotation is pretty much:
Broil->Ruin II with the occassional Biolysis and Energy Drain (on the condition we have an excess, or if you're playing to risk/reward to boost your deeps a little more, but ED doesn't add a lot).
I don't think the solution to the problem has anything to do with Energy Drain or aetherflow, it is more "give us back more to do in our downtime".
And actually, I personally advocate more risk/reward mechanics for SCH, in that we have more dual purpose where we might sacrifice healing potential for DPS potential and to do more with the DPS, because I think it plays more to the tactical feel of a SCH and the idea of enhancing/using abilities differently depending on the situation. It means we can get better use out of more skills in our downtime, more heal focus may sacrifice DPS, but that's the case when you have more of a focus on healing anyway.
One of my suggested changes to SCH is to get more mileage out of existing spells by allowing skill like Deployment Tactics and Emergency tactics and faerie choice affects how certain skills are used, where a healing spell could be changed for more utility or DPS, or a DPS spell to do something slightly different (eg. Biolysis dumps all damage at once, akin to Thunder procs on BLM). This adds more risk/reward, but adds to the tactical feel (which SCH is supposed to have) and gives us more out of our downtime without taking up more space on our bars and sees more use of skills we're not touching in our downtime, but you have to make your choice in a heal focus. Because for a lot of content, we're not actually seeing much use of our healing abilities and in content where we do, we have periods/sections where we aren't. -
05-21-2020, 12:51 AMClaire_Pendragontrue, so there would be a need for a minimum amount of dmg to make up for the dps loss from clipping the GCD or needing a ruin2. (technically i feel all basic spells should leave 0.5s off their cast bar, to help with basic weaving, but thats my personal taste in gameplay. i know its not a 100% perfect thing.)Quote:
Originally Posted by EaMett