Yoshida-san - What's Your Philosophy for 2.0 Max Level Content?

To: Yoshida-san & Combat Team,

Now that the major Combat System revisions are now in and "complete," can you comment on what your Core Philosophy is going to be for "Max Level Content"?

Specifically, is the pattern we're seeing now the past few patches, in line with what you believe Final Fantasy XIV 2.0 is going to be like? Things like the way our Dungeons (Cutter's Cry, Aurum Vale, Dzemael Darkhold) and Primal Fights are currently?

Do you imagine future 2.0 content is in a similar style, with "Self-Contained Systems / Experiences"? For example, Dzemael, Aurum Vale and Cutter's Cry are all stand alone Dungeons (Systems / Experiences) that have a variety of Finished Equipment Drops that you can get with very low drop rates (for Darklight gear).

Can we expect a similar pattern for 2.0, where we get a New Dungeon / Raid every few months, where we repeat the Dungeon to finish collecting the desired Equipment that's contained in that Dungeon?

Or are there Long-Term Goal Oriented Systems coming online to tie in and prolong the experience?

I know Yoshida-san, you commented on Level Cap Increases happening every... 12 - 18 months(?) (I can't find the post right now).

What are your thoughts on how Level Cap Raises will affect current "Best Equipment" in the game? Do you imagine they'll be invalidated, or do you imagine having an Upgrade System?

I hope that most of the content we see now (Primal Fights, Dzemael, Cutter's Cry, Aurum Vale Dungeons) are *not* indicative of Final Fantasy XIV 2.0's Max Level Content, and that we'll have Long Term Goal Oriented Systems in place, or more involved, engaging Systems / Content (e.g., stuff like Tu'Lia (Sky) or Dynamis, etc.).

I know in your latest Producer Letter, you mention *upgradeable* AF Weapons (which sounds hopeful). And Crystal Tower listed as a "large-scale Instanced Raid" sounds (and looks) exciting also.

So how do you imagine the Gear Progression to happen long-term?

Do you imagine each new Dungeon having a New Set of Gear that is more powerful / better than the last Dungeon?

Right now, seeing Dzemael and then the Beastmen Stronghold Gear, and now the Darklight Gear, is this the type of upgrading you'll be pursuing?

Many people have brought up a variety of ideas to help promote longevity on the forums. Some examples (from a variety of people) include:

• Allowing Unique / Untradeable Equipment to be Materia Meldable / Convertible.

• Having Unique / Untradeable Equipment create Rare Materia.

• Creating more Interesting / Engaging Dungeon Scenarios that incentivize Replaying Dungeons (instead of just grinding the same route / same experience over and over). Whether that's Alternate Routes, other Drops besides the Gear itself, interesting Puzzles, Challenges, Different NMs / Goals, etc.

• Upgrade System for Equipment (e.g., Relic Weapons (tying into Dynamis, Currency, getting Attestations, etc.) or getting Abjurations to upgrade previously Great Equipment to make them even better).

• Having *Special Rare Materials* drop from Dungeons & Primal Fights that help in a Recipe to create a Unique Item, so that you can tie in multiple NMs, Battles / Dungeons to create Great Equipment (which would then involve Combat Players & Crafters).

• Having a Point System (for Dungeons) so that you're always progressing towards a long term goal (to know you're working towards earning some rare drop).

I think understanding your Long Term Philosophy on this type of content is something many players care about, and would like to know.

Lastly, I remain hopeful and am excited for 2.0 regardless, with the amazing World Redesign and seeing exciting battle areas like the Garlean Empire Citadel and Crystal Tower and other areas.

Final Fantasy XIV Version 2.0 World Map Art (thanks Starlord!) :)
http://aniverse.net/attachment.php?a...3&d=1318757548

http://aniverse.net/attachment.php?a...4&d=1318757561

http://aniverse.net/attachment.php?a...5&d=1318757639

http://aniverse.net/attachment.php?a...6&d=1318757654

http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/dow...0_Specs_EN.pdf


I know I'll be glad to enjoy the *Journey* of exploring all these beautiful lands, enjoying New Jobs, and just tackling New Content / Battles that make *use* of the "Best Gear" we have acquired (so each new patch doesn't have to be only about "New Gear").

But I hope we also get an answer to know what to expect for general Gear Progression and how you imagine we'd get long-term playability & replayability for Max Level Content.

Thank you! :)

Good topic, I'd like to know myself.

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Originally Posted by Dragon

Good topic, I'd like to know myself.

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Hi Dragon,

Yah, it would be great to know if what we're experiencing now with the type of 5 Chests, self-contained Dungeons are the style of content Yoshida-san wants, or is this just a temporary measure?

I really hope for more in-depth, engaging content for future Dungeon / Raid content.

If i recall, his vision for the game was "Theme Park."

http://mommypoppins.com/files/imagec...rfectstorm.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kiara

• Allowing Unique / Untradeable Equipment to be Materia Meldable / Convertible.

• Having Unique / Untradeable Equipment create Rare Materia.

• Creating more Interesting / Engaging Dungeon Scenarios that incentivize Replaying Dungeons (instead of just grinding the same route / same experience over and over). Whether that's Alternate Routes, other Drops besides the Gear itself, interesting Puzzles, Challenges, Different NMs / Goals, etc.

• Upgrade System for Equipment (e.g., Relic Weapons (tying into Dynamis, Currency, getting Attestations, etc.) or getting Abjurations to upgrade previously Great Equipment to make them even better).

• Having *Special Rare Materials* drop from Dungeons & Primal Fights that help in a Recipe to create a Unique Item, so that you can tie in multiple NMs, Battles / Dungeons to create Great Equipment (which would then involve Combat Players & Crafters).

• Having a Point System (for Dungeons) so that you're always progressing towards a long term goal (to know you're working towards earning some rare drop).

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The bullet points in question caught my eye since I've thought of how they could implement said ideas without ruining the ecosystem of the classes.

With the First part on rare/ex gear what they could do is create materials gained through the same dungeons that allow crafters to create an essence that allows the target to spiritbond/materia the piece of gear. The difference with this however is when you decide to transform your bond with the rare/ex into materia you don't lose the piece of gear but at the same time you can't turn it into materia unless you go through the process of having a crafter add said essence to the gear.

If a crafter happens to fail at adding essence to the rare/ex gear they only lose the materials but also gain a small penalty from attempting to add essence to a piece of gear for a 3-5 mins, the same as a weakness duration.

The idea in mind is to prevent this, if you allow rare/ex gear to turn into materia or meld materia into it, you run into this issue.If the gear is lost then people who have already gotten the gear will want to get it again and those who haven't had the chance to get it yet may miss out on getting it because a greedy person got it in their loot pool. -
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With dungeons I wish they would go back on the idea of actually allowing DoL/DoH into them. Rather then think of it as limiting the party of 8, why don't they just have it where a party can be composed of 8 fighting members adn 2 of DoH/DoL. With those DoH/DoL they can use their knowledge and ability to unlock hidden passages or even find ancient workshops to learn new recipes. While they most likely won't incorporate it into the dungeons we see now I can only hope that they do have some sort of plan to involve DoL/DoH into dungeons. Since when I think of DoL/DoH I think of them as the people who seek the help of others to explore an area because they are unable to fend off the beast in the area. However the reason why they need said fighters by their side is because they have knowledge of the location and wish to analyze what they've heard to find hidden treasure or knowledge.
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Rather then an upgrade system I'd like to see something along the lines of a vanity system, where you can set two pieces, one that's your statistical gear and the other that's your outward appearance, so in that essence there wouldn't really be a need to create an upgrade system if the concept behind it is to allow one to wear gear that they want to wear.
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When it comes to rare materials it's a hard mistress to fight. If you think of it as a gatherer is it really fair that from what I've seen the most expensive material in the game comes from a mob drop, the Dodore Wing which turns into Dodore leather, which I've seen go for 1mil on the Market Wards. DoH is suppose to be the supplier of materials, but if the best material come from fights then it pretty much negates the usefulness of those classes. If you want said idea to work it has to involve all the classes you can't leave DoH out of it, there has to be some way DoH can be involved in acquiring these materials.

Ok here's an idea, let's think of the fights with the Primals as the astral world. Let's say that gatherers can enter the astral world using the same inferno tapers as DoW/M do to fight Ifrit, except when gatherers use it, they go into a domain in which they attempt to extract materials from the region. Now the limit would be this. Hm, what if instead of Inferno Tapers, the "item" they needed was obtained through a new ability "Astral Collection" in the same essence of "fingerprint of the god" when active it would allow the gatherer the chance to obtain astral materials that would allow them to enter the primal's domain to obtain materials that could be used to create rare pieces of equipment.

It's just if you want rare materials to exist DoL HAS to be involved in some way.
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As for the dungeon point system, a system like that puts an expiration date on dungeons since people could just use numbers to determine when they will be done with the dungeon, however there is a way for said system to work.

The simple idea is this, the point system could be used to allow you to skip parts of dungeons if you just want to fight a certain NM for their chest drop. However when you do use said item you won't obtain any points for that dungeon run. Also it would be required that everyone has a "Hall Pass" to go along with the "Dungeon pass" kinda like this.

I haven't really experience many full dungeons but under the idea that there are 3 NMs let's say this I think it's antlion, chimera and I"ll make up a 3rd NM, the Liger. So let's say the introduction of these boss fights come as Liger-Antlion-Chimera
So say you have saved up 1k dungeon points. you could do the following
Bypass Start=200
Bypass Liger=400
Bypass Antlion=600
Hall pass=50

So basically the person with the Bypass would have to initiate the dungeon and everyone would have to carry said "Hall Pass" to follow along. When the person uses the Bypass the part is sent to the area just before or after the boss fight based on the Bypass they used. When using Bypass Start it jumps you to the area before you fight the Liger. If you don't feel like fighting the Liger then you use the Bypass Liger which jump you to after the fight with the Liger, If you don't want to fighter the Antlion then it pops you in right after antlion fight. Then from there you could charge through to the chimera, but the general idea would be to save time for those who may grow tired of the same exact flow of the dungeon just to fullfil some speed run requirement. But if their main goal is just to get the chest from x mob then let them
use the Bypass.

But ya, that's just off the top of my head, I'm not sure how well it wuold work in execution but I would imagine if people just wanted to fight a certain NM they would be able to or even this. The Bypass could be used to practice on an NM that may be giving you trouble, rather then only have 15 mins left in a run you would have a full hour to play around with strats and figure out what works best for your group.
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I'd like to think some of these ideas could work, but it's hard to say what needs to be fixed until we see everything in action, especially the DoL reform, that one doesn't seem like it'll take place til after 2.0 but I do have hopes that hamlet will offer something to empower the gameplay for gatherers and give them loot that is both rare and sells for a decent amount.

What is this a troll thread?

You know his plan:

Update happens
2 weeks later all the good players have every new item
3 months later the badds catch up

play a different game until next update.

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Originally Posted by Visch

What is this a troll thread?

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Did you even bother reading the OP? Of all possible threads, this is definitely not a troll thread.

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Originally Posted by Dragon

Did you even bother reading the OP? Of all possible threads, this is definitely not a troll thread.

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He already answered this in an interview forever ago.

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Originally Posted by Visch

He already answered this in an interview forever ago.

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He answered to a question about the game's general/overall philosophy, not endgame/max-level content itself.

Edit: even if he did, I think now is a good time for an update on the philosophy in terms of endgame/max-level content.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Obvious troll is pretty obvious

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Yes, you are an obvious troll, and not a good one either.

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Originally Posted by Airget

The bullet points in question caught my eye since I've thought of how they could implement said ideas without ruining the ecosystem of the classes.

With the First part on rare/ex gear what they could do is create materials gained through the same dungeons that allow crafters to create an essence that allows the target to spiritbond/materia the piece of gear. The difference with this however is when you decide to transform your bond with the rare/ex into materia you don't lose the piece of gear but at the same time you can't turn it into materia unless you go through the process of having a crafter add said essence to the gear.

If a crafter happens to fail at adding essence to the rare/ex gear they only lose the materials but also gain a small penalty from attempting to add essence to a piece of gear for a 3-5 mins, the same as a weakness duration.

The idea in mind is to prevent this, if you allow rare/ex gear to turn into materia or meld materia into it, you run into this issue.If the gear is lost then people who have already gotten the gear will want to get it again and those who haven't had the chance to get it yet may miss out on getting it because a greedy person got it in their loot pool. -
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With dungeons I wish they would go back on the idea of actually allowing DoL/DoH into them. Rather then think of it as limiting the party of 8, why don't they just have it where a party can be composed of 8 fighting members adn 2 of DoH/DoL. With those DoH/DoL they can use their knowledge and ability to unlock hidden passages or even find ancient workshops to learn new recipes. While they most likely won't incorporate it into the dungeons we see now I can only hope that they do have some sort of plan to involve DoL/DoH into dungeons. Since when I think of DoL/DoH I think of them as the people who seek the help of others to explore an area because they are unable to fend off the beast in the area. However the reason why they need said fighters by their side is because they have knowledge of the location and wish to analyze what they've heard to find hidden treasure or knowledge.
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Hi Airget,

Some great ideas here. :)

I really like the idea of having a Crafter affect Unique / Untradeable Dungeon / Raid Drops which would then allow a possible Melding to occur. It would certainly be a good way to involve Disciples of the Hand at two points in the process to upgrade and interact with Combat players.

It's also a good point about what happens if U/U Items break, but IMHO, I think allowing U/U Items to break if you fail a Double Meld would be good incentive for players to go through previous content again.

I agree that it may prevent newbies who've never gotten an item in the first place of being displaced (or fighting for a drop that others have already gotten before), but there is a saturation point where really old content is just undesirable (and most everyone who's gotten the drops are done with it) (e.g., Dzemael's drops).

And for sure, I agree, I'd love to see Disciples of the Land get involved somehow in the Max Level Content in some form. Your idea of allowing them to mine/chop/fish in special areas limited by the same system that limits Combat players is cool, but if the dropped Material only was from a Disciple of the Land getting it, what would the incentive be for a DoW / DoM to repeat content after they gain their drops?

It's definitely an interesting problem.

Perhaps, say, Ifrit did drop an "Orihalcum Ore" from the chest after beating it, but at a really low drop rate. But, tying into your idea, Disciples of the Land could also enter Ifrit's Bowl of Embers (separate instance) and have an attempt at a Gathering Challenge which would dramatically increase the drop rate of the Rare Items (like Orihalcum Ore).

At that point it would involve and incentivize both Combat Classes and Gatherers (and the Crafters would be able to help synth the super rare recipes). :)

These are all questions I want answers too, OP. You make some great suggestions to promote longevity as well.

I dont agree with the "good players" and "bads" but he is right about the information being released already. However, I would like to know If Yoshi dose infact intend to make LVLing harder. Personally I belive its way to easy right now. As far as endgame content gose, it is what you make of it. Challanges are precived not recived. Have beaten Ifrit about a thousand times now. The challange IMO comes from within the player, "can I do it faster, take less damage, deal more damage, ect ect?"

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I dont agree with the "good players" and "bads" but he is right about the information being released already. However, I would like to know If Yoshi dose infact intend to make LVLing harder. Personally I belive its way to easy right now. As far as endgame content gose, it is what you make of it. Challanges are precived not recived. Have beaten Ifrit about a thousand times now. The challange IMO comes from within the player, "can I do it faster, take less damage, deal more damage, ect ect?"

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Hi Ace,

Yes, I'm also curious about how fast players can EXP once 2.0 lands (and the World / All Maps / Creature Layout, etc. are revamped / changed). Yoshida-san did say the current EXP rate was in the hopes of getting new players (that are just joining now) up to max level faster, to be able to enjoy most of the new content available now.

Re: Challenges - Oh certainly there are personal goals you can set and things you want to achieve yourself. As you say, "Can I do this fight faster? Take less damage? etc."

But I think that Yoshida-san and the Combat Design Team can also help add to replayability with some of the suggestions listed in the original post (good ideas from so many forum members).

Designing a System that could possibly tie in all the Primal Fights together for a reason, or creating a set of "Other Primal Items" that might have a great benefit to Disciples of War, Magic, Hand *and* Land, with Rare Material drops being a secondary reward from the current Primal Fights & Dungeons would definitely add longevity and help make it more interesting.

Or better designed Alternate Paths, Alternate Goals within a Dungeon, spawning different NMs, etc. would help as well. Thanks. :)

I would assume there would be some type of seal system still in place or expanded upon in 2.0. Every dev has a hard on for points, tokens and/or currencies at the moment. It's easy to implement and it makes the player feel like they're making progress every time they log in. (or not making progress)

There are still tons of GC ranks they can release so this ties in well, and if all new content rewards seals it will make the player feel like they are making progress even if they are doing something different or helping someone with old content.

They can enforce a level cap restriction on things to keep the content as intended. Naturally, you'll need to make higher level gear scale when downgraded so people don't need to scramble for low level gear causing inventory issues.

For example, the job unlock quests are tuned for difficulty but everyone just gets a 50 to cheese it. If there was a cap of 30ish, it would still be hard later, that goes for every mission and/or BCNM-type fight.

This kind of runs into the issue of when people move on from older content and won't help anyone. (We have this issue now, actually) A system that rewards people that do content they've already done would alleviate some of these issues. A lot of people won't help someone unless they are getting something out of it. I see it all the time. That's not to say everyone is like that, but yeah.

Upgradeable weapons/armor is a good system in place if level caps keep going up. You won't feel like you wasted time getting x gear only for something new to come out that is way better. You could upgrade it, but make it just a little worse than new gear so new gear is still sought after.

Upgrading gear should keep materia attached, too, so you won't have to go through the work again. Of course, they'll probably add more tiers of materia so you'll have to replace it sooner or later but it just makes that piece of gear last longer.

Going by what we have now, I assume he wants to make all content as accessible as possible, but add in something a little extra for the "hardcore" like speed runs, or special conditions that have to be met in order to get something extra/better gear etc.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I dont agree with the "good players" and "bads" but he is right about the information being released already. However, I would like to know If Yoshi dose infact intend to make LVLing harder. Personally I belive its way to easy right now. As far as endgame content gose, it is what you make of it. Challanges are precived not recived. Have beaten Ifrit about a thousand times now. The challange IMO comes from within the player, "can I do it faster, take less damage, deal more damage, ect ect?"

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>_> lvling has never ever ever been hard...in any game ive ever played ever. Granted I didn't play some of the older MMO's, but lvling is just that...lvling. I mean how hard is it to earn experience points over prolonged periods of time. Something like that isn't supposed to be difficult, just time-consuming. Course needlessly time consuming (korean grindfests) is just a waste of time, not even fun, and promotes more botting than actually playing.

Im a bit confused as to why you think lvling needs to be more difficult, and how you can possibly make it more difficult. Earning xp, no matter how you look at it, is not a hard activity unless you force ppl to fight tooth and nail in high failure rate mob battles just to get 300xp. But at that point your game is likely to die within a couple months.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

I would assume there would be some type of seal system still in place or expanded upon in 2.0. Every dev has a hard on for points, tokens and/or currencies at the moment. It's easy to implement and it makes the player feel like they're making progress every time they log in. (or not making progress)

Upgradeable weapons/armor is a good system in place if level caps keep going up. You won't feel like you wasted time getting x gear only for something new to come out that is way better. You could upgrade it, but make it just a little worse than new gear so new gear is still sought after.

Upgrading gear should keep materia attached, too, so you won't have to go through the work again. Of course, they'll probably add more tiers of materia so you'll have to replace it sooner or later but it just makes that piece of gear last longer.

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Hi Vaer,

Some good thoughts here. :)

I agree and hope we have some sort of long-term goal system, driven by things like you mentioned (special currency, tokens, points). And as I bolded in your quote above, it makes people feel like they're working towards the goal every time they attempt whatever content that's tied into it.

I'd also be glad to have systems that could Upgrade Gear (at least the rare pieces), while still inevitably having newer recipe-driven gear and newer drops that come along.

It's just that so far, the drops are being invalidated quite fast in some cases (like all the Dzemael drops being worthless in the matter of only one patch).

I'd also be interested in hearing if the style of play we're seeing now for Aurum Vale / Cutter's Cry and the drop rates are in line with what Yoshida-san envisions 2.0 to be like. I think that's one key area I'd really like to know about.

@OP

A constructive post that directly targets an actual issue. Good Job.

I have been planning to make a thread that deals with this issue specifically, but Unique Untradeable gear being the more desireable (not the best gear but most sought after) destroys the crafting system in proportion to how easily obtained and how good the untradeable gear is. These two inconsistent and competing gear systems work against each other and essentially make each other irrelevant in degrees.

Every time new Unique Untradeable gear is added, the significance or importance of crafters is diminished. The Devs HAVE to eliminate Unique Untradeable gear or risk making crafters and the materia system completely irrelevant.

Now, dungeons are interesting; but, because they are separated from the game world themselves and usually found in secluded areas (like caves) the danger to Eorzea is seemingly eliminated. Getting some more battles in the actual world itself would be a bonus.

As for Yoshi's philosophy when it comes to MMOs, he has it perfect. The Theme Park reference is essentially the ideal. MMOs incorporate many different types of gameplay that bring together lots of different people. Each mode of gameplay is separate, but linked together with the others. Unique Untradeable gear is an example where the link is severed and the philosophy is broken down.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

@OP

A constructive post that directly targets an actual issue. Good Job.

I have been planning to make a thread that deals with this issue specifically, but Unique Untradeable gear being the more desireable (not the best gear but most sought after) destroys the crafting system in proportion to how easily obtained and how good the untradeable gear is. These two inconsistent and competing gear systems work against each other and essentially make each other irrelevant in degrees.

Every time new Unique Untradeable gear is added, the significance or importance of crafters is diminished. The Devs HAVE to eliminate Unique Untradeable gear or risk making crafters and the materia system completely irrelevant.

Now, dungeons are interesting; but, because they are separated from the game world themselves and usually found in secluded areas (like caves) the danger to Eorzea is seemingly eliminated. Getting some more battles in the actual world itself would be a bonus.

As for Yoshi's philosophy when it comes to MMOs, he has it perfect. The Theme Park reference is essentially the ideal. MMOs incorporate many different types of gameplay that bring together lots of different people. Each mode of gameplay is separate, but linked together with the others. Unique Untradeable gear is an example where the link is severed and the philosophy is broken down.

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Hi Ajax,

Thanks for the great thoughts. :)

I agree having the current Unique / Untradeable style of drops (finished goods, no Materia melding, no interaction / extra steps / upgrading, or even converting, etc.) makes it a closed system that just weighs heavily against the "Crafted vs. Dungeon Rewards (complete item)" argument.

As you say, each time another set of U/U items comes about, it adds to "one side of the scale" (so to speak) of the Crafter involved Items vs. Combat-gained Items.

I think there's room for U/U Gear, but also I hope to see a system added that involves Combat, Crafting & Gathering in some form. Whether there are rare Materials instead of finished goods as drops, or Abjurations which can then be used to upgrade gear with Crafter & Gatherer help, or making U/U Gear convertible with a good chance to drop rarer materia (which can go back into the marketplace), there should be some more inter-dependencies.

For Yoshi P's philosophy, I was hoping for a more in-depth and focused reply beyond the "theme park" idea he mentioned. Specifically in regards to Max Level Content.

I definitely understand (and am happy) to see "theme park" ideas across the entire game (activities for everyone of all levels, Gold Saucer, Chocobo Upgrading, Large Scale Conflicts). But it'd be really nice to know if the style of dungeons and Primal fights we're getting (and the drop rates and ideas behind them (in terms of design, planning, (lack of) puzzles, Speed Runs) is the general philosophy he's hoping for, or is there more?

Thanks~

I'm not asking for ZNM, Sky, SEa, Dynamis. lord help us if we draw comparisons to XI around here, but I'd like to see content on that scale in terms of time it takes to obtain elite gear.

I thin Yoshi is more focused on leveling the play field for casuals and hardcore alike at more people having a fair chance at everything. I think he's done well with how accessible the good gear is right now, and provides a good challenge at the same time. But something needs to be there to drive the core community in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by RedAffinity

I'm not asking for ZNM, Sky, SEa, Dynamis. lord help us if we draw comparisons to XI around here, but I'd like to see content on that scale in terms of time it takes to obtain elite gear.

I thin Yoshi is more focused on leveling the play field for casuals and hardcore alike at more people having a fair chance at everything. I think he's done well with how accessible the good gear is right now, and provides a good challenge at the same time. But something needs to be there to drive the core community in my opinion.

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Hi Red,

Agreed. :)

I'm glad that there's Max Level Content that casual and hardcore can partake in (everyone can try out Ifrit or Moogle, get pick up groups, etc.).

I'm just curious what (if any) Long Term Goal-Oriented Systems there might be. Something to be the impetus for the most dedicated, and that even casuals can partake in (at a slower rate (depending on their limited time online etc.)).

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Originally Posted by Kiara

And for sure, I agree, I'd love to see Disciples of the Land get involved somehow in the Max Level Content in some form. Your idea of allowing them to mine/chop/fish in special areas limited by the same system that limits Combat players is cool, but if the dropped Material only was from a Disciple of the Land getting it, what would the incentive be for a DoW / DoM to repeat content after they gain their drops?

It's definitely an interesting problem.

Perhaps, say, Ifrit did drop an "Orihalcum Ore" from the chest after beating it, but at a really low drop rate. But, tying into your idea, Disciples of the Land could also enter Ifrit's Bowl of Embers (separate instance) and have an attempt at a Gathering Challenge which would dramatically increase the drop rate of the Rare Items (like Orihalcum Ore).

At that point it would involve and incentivize both Combat Classes and Gatherers (and the Crafters would be able to help synth the super rare recipes). :)

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I'd really like to see crafters and gatherers involved in "end game" content, but it's been made pretty clear that Yoshi plans to segregate them from most content. He did mention there's plans in 2.0 to make it to where a high level group would have to travel through a dungeon to go to a special forge or something to make some really good gear. (kind of like how you had to goto that special forge in Blackrock in WoW) DoH and DoL will also be included in Hamlet Defense, however I find it hard to believe that if they don't participate that it'll make it unplayable.

I just don't see it happening that they'll develop instanced content just for crafters and gatherers. Not that I don't support it, but that's just the vibe I get based on the direction the game is going. At least in WoW (and in FFXI) you could fish up specific NMs; they should definitely look into this.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I'd really like to see crafters and gatherers involved in "end game" content, but it's been made pretty clear that Yoshi plans to segregate them from most content. He did mention there's plans in 2.0 to make it to where a high level group would have to travel through a dungeon to go to a special forge or something to make some really good gear. (kind of like how you had to goto that special forge in Blackrock in WoW) DoH and DoL will also be included in Hamlet Defense, however I find it hard to believe that if they don't participate that it'll make it unplayable.

I just don't see it happening that they'll develop instanced content just for crafters and gatherers. Not that I don't support it, but that's just the vibe I get based on the direction the game is going. At least in WoW (and in FFXI) you could fish up specific NMs; they should definitely look into this.

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Hi Orophin,

Yah, the current vibe I'm feeling is similar to you... one can hope that once more of the Combat-related goals are in (and 2.0 is getting close to launching) that Yoshida-san and team might have more time to really look at Disciples of the Hand and Land and see how they can be better incorporated into higher level content in a meaningful way.

I'm definitely curious and excited to see how they get DoH and DoL into Hamlet Defense, and in this snippet from the 2.0 Documentation:

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Campaign of battles against the dragon horde in the defense of Ishgard, with participation possible as any of the four Disciplines.

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That sounds pretty cool! :)

philosophy = gear grind/carrot on a stick model

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Originally Posted by bobbygunz

philosophy = gear grind/carrot on a stick model

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Hi Bobby,

Very true. :P The question is:

Is the current, shallow "carrot on a stick" approach satisfying for you and most players? Is this sufficient?

Or do we want to see something more involved, engaging, interesting for max level content?

Long term goals! I like upgrade approaches to instanced content. Run a different loup every few days and collect keys to enter a harder area, get key item to enter boss room. Include small lockout timers like 48hour lockout (this helps them keep a high drop rate and not flood the econ with the gear. Include hard special condition NM's / random spawn NM's and lock jobs inside. Make certain NM's impervious to types of attacks. This prevents class stacking and promotes every jobs usefulness. Incorporate monsters that can't die w/o incaps. This is my ideal content.

I logged in today, for the specific purpose of writing a post that would contain pretty much exactly what the OP posted. Me vuw OP.

I would also like to know very specifically, (kind of in paralell to the point progression system) if the current droprates and RNG, is what we can expect for the next several years to come.

(edit for clarification: I'm not looking for a discussion/judgment on the merits on the current system and rates amongst the players, I am merely wondering what the devs themselves think of the future in this regard)

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Originally Posted by Tango

Long term goals! I like upgrade approaches to instanced content. Run a different loup every few days and collect keys to enter a harder area, get key item to enter boss room. Include small lockout timers like 48hour lockout (this helps them keep a high drop rate and not flood the econ with the gear. Include hard special condition NM's / random spawn NM's and lock jobs inside. Make certain NM's impervious to types of attacks. This prevents class stacking and promotes every jobs usefulness. Incorporate monsters that can't die w/o incaps. This is my ideal content.

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Hi Tango,

Thanks for adding some good ideas. :)

I definitely would love to see running alternate routes / paths to gain keys to then be able to reach a Final Boss. Or just having alternate paths in dungeons for different objectives that are also appealing.

The Lockout Timer is definitely a controversial topic amongst many here. I remember when the lockout for Dzemael Darkhold was announced (15 minutes), and many people had an opinion for or against the idea.

I think after seeing the drop rates now with Darklight Gear, and even stuff like Ifrit Weapons, I wonder if more players would enjoy having Longer Lockout Timers, but Much Higher Drop Rates?

Would people enjoy having, say, a 24 Hour Lockout, but have a 300% Increase to Drop Rate Chances for stuff like Darklight or Primal Weapons? (Of course on Darklight that might not even move the meter seeing as how super low the Drop Rate seems to be like. ;)

Or maybe they can keep the cooldowns as they are now (15 minutes) but just up the Drop Rates in general?

I love the Incapacitation idea! :) It's a system that we've had for a long time, but has gone underutilized (sadly) for a while.

Incorporating Incapacitation (chopping of an NM Boss's Legs, Arms, Tail, Horns, etc.) to help unlock a Final Chest or increase chances for a Rare Drop would be great. It would encourage more parties to use a Variety of Jobs instead of Class Stacking for sure.

Special Condition NMs / Random Spawn NMs also sound fun and would add variety as well.