Endgame content is too stressfull and difficult

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If savage is too difficult then just, don't do it. BiS doesn't mean anything unless you're doing savage and shooting for parses. You could do all the normal content on purely crafted gear and not struggle whatsoever.

Assuming of course this isn't a troll thread.

Savage is the easiest it's ever been right now imo, especially the first few floors, making it much easier will alienate a lot of the playerbase who wants that kind of content. As Billy said though, if you are not the kind of player who clears savage, BiS shouldn't be that important to you as there isn't any content that would require that level of stats, hell even half of the ex roullete dungeons sync your item level, so BiS will be unnoticable. If its just the glamour you want out of it, you can wait for a new tier to come out and clear it then when its much easier too. Making savage rewards more easily accessible devalues the reward for people who can get it, and also disincentivises people to get better at the game and strive to get that gear.

Take a break with it. A lot of statics don't know you should always take a break from raiding once in a while or you get burned out which causes a lot of mistakes and messing up.

I plan to get back into raiding maybe as BLM or Bard haven't decided.

Savage is supposed to be difficult. It is supposed to take a lot of wipes before you learn how to beat it.
The solution for who think Savage is too difficult is simple - don't do it. There is absolutely no need to run Savage unless you find it fun.

As for the BiS gear - you don't need it.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

As for the BiS gear - you don't need it.

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Originally Posted by rsod

It's like because you said that, or you have some better arguments?

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BiS gear helps you run Savage a few seconds faster. If you're not running Savage, you don't need it.

It doesn't make a meaningful difference over tomestone gear in any non-savage, non-extreme content.

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Originally Posted by rsod

Savage isn't fun at all for me, I hate content that difficult. But there is no other way to get bis gear.

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If you aren't running savage, you don't need best in slot, simply getting high enough ilvl is sufficient for everything else. The stat differences between the best ilvl gear is rather minimal, and you can complete Extreme, the next step down from savage with pretty much anything as long as you are the right ilvl and don't have any gear that's horribly out of date.

Hell, you don't even really need full BiS for savage, since you have to already complete it a few times to even get full BiS. It's largely just completionism.

Edit: The only time I can think that you'd really need to worry about getting Best in Slot is if you are planning to do Ultimate tier, but if you don't enjoy savage, you won't even be able to access ultimate, making the point moot.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

If savage is too difficult then just, don't do it. BiS doesn't mean anything unless you're doing savage and shooting for parses. You could do all the normal content on purely crafted gear and not struggle whatsoever.

Assuming of course this isn't a troll thread.

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Isn't ilevel in new content also laughably low? You can buy crafted gear and be more than fine. And on some worlds, if you just *ask* for it, people will absolutely give you a full set in HQ.

So what about the players that like how difficult it is or want it difficult?

Games that cater to many players, especially MMO's, should have content that fits for players who like easy, average, and hard content.

And it's perfectly fine that the hardest content in the game gives the best gear.

Does that mean that some players can't get that gear without the help of others? Yes. Is that a bad thing? No.

Dear OP,

I understand the feeling of need (or greed) to get THE BiS gear. Because it makes yourself feel good to be self equipped with such gear.
Just like IRL when one would feel good to be getting a new, fancy garment to be worn in occasions. Or the best gaming spec for your computer.
Perhaps it's the FOMO (fear of missing out) in you when you see everyone in your circle is talking about savage raiding.
Everyone is doing it. I must do it too!!! You tried it, and the result was what is written in your first post.

Just like everyone else said, if it's too difficult, don't do it.
You don't need the BiS gear unless you want to progress more in Savage.
Or tackle Ultimate.
What you're feeling now is just greed.
Not that it's a bad thing wanting to feel good about yourself as a player.
(Unless you're one of those who just brags and downgrades others)
It feels good to have a sense of progression in games.
But for your own sake, you need to know what your limits are.

I'm telling you this as a non-raider myself. I don't do savage nor extreme (only Hades for fun).
Very often I see people in FC talks about their savage runs, melding, openers... flexing their BiS gear or savage mounts.
I won't lie it makes me envious sometimes. I just roll my eyes at them.
Friends have tried to persuade me in doing savage. But the amount of dedication and time it requires from me would be more stressful than fun.
I'd like to do other stuff in-game and still get my 10pm sleep, thanks.

So first, you need to re-evaluate why do you need to get BiS so much.
If it's just for your own sense of completion, then think if all the stress you've described will be worth for your own enjoyment?
If you're already giving up and wants the game to adjust for you, instead of practice again and again to improve; then I guess savage raiding is not for you.
Perhaps, as someone had suggested earlier, take some break and try again with a clear head. Or as a different job.

I know there are people who enjoys the challenge that savage offers.
I have friends who do it not for the BiS but just to clear and the thrill itself.
I have friends who were first uncertain with their skills to do savage but now raids regularly for BiS and Ultimate.
And I also have a friend who forced themselves raiding to the point of depression because it was so stressful for them. Do not turn out like this.

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Originally Posted by rsod

Savage isn't fun at all for me, I hate content that difficult. But there is no other way to get bis gear.

It's like because you said that, or you have some better arguments?

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Nobody needs the BiS gear. All content can be beaten without it.
Since you typically need to beat the hardest available content to get the BiS gear, anyone who does get the BiS gear has just proven they don't actually need it.

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Originally Posted by rsod

Savage isn't fun at all for me, I hate content that difficult. But there is no other way to get bis gear.

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Im surprised no one else has pointed this out yet. Running savage is the only way to get Edenchoir gear(the ilvl 500 that drops from the coffers). And currently, running savage is the only way to get Augmented Crystarium gear(you use the upgrade items to turn ilvl 490 tomestone gear into i500 gear). However, when the next patch comes out(5.3) there will be two more ways to get the upgrade items to turn your i490 tomestone gear into the i500 augmented stuff. The odd number patches are "catch-up" patches, where the savage raiders dont get as much new content while the game adds new sources for current level equipment. We'll see the next Nier raid dropping i490 gear(equal to the good tomestone, but with different sub-stats), we'll probly get an upgrade system to turn i480 crafted gear into i490 stuff(again, equal to the current tome), the next relic step will probly put the weapon in the i495 range(better then tome, less then upgrade tome or savage), and we'll have 2 non-savage sources to turn the tome gear we have into the i500 variety. The only advantage savage will keep is that their weapons will be the best, and they might have better sub-stats on the choir gear.

So, as others have said, if savage is too hard just dont do it. You can get to 93% the same level as BiS* by just waiting a few more weeks and then doing new content.

*In this case im just refering to highest item level as "BiS", similar to how the OP seems to be. I recognize that actual "Best" in slot will vary by class and tier, and isnt always just savage pieces.

For a few jobs, the i480 Idealized Gear from Memoria Misera is the BiS piece for hands/feet/head. BiS is always and has always been a mixture of Raid gear, weekly tome gear, and then some one off crafted piece/24 man raid piece.

If you think it's too hard, then don't do it. The difficulty is supposed to be the appeal. That's why it's (Savage).

Limited resources probably has something to do with it, otherwise there would be more alternative methods for more things like gearing. I don't really like stressful raiding content either, I like exploration stuff and randomised loot with randomised stats like what the old diadem was trying to be but that concept never went further because it wasn't popular enough. Diadem has an annoying map design but I would have liked to see exploratory missions on different new maps with battle content.

The problem the game has is a matter of having proper scaling and ways for players to ramp into harder content. Savage feels way too tight for the level of play the game leaves most players at when they complete the MSQ, get through the regular end game duties like normal eden, copied factory, and possibly memoria miseria. Plus this game isn't like WoW where raiding is the only thing someone can do.

Here's the list of things wrong with Savage Raiding as it is now:

1) It forces people to play specific classes within a role when the rest of the game lets people play whatever class within a given role they like.
2) The DPS checks are way too tight for the level of expertise people will generally have coming out of MSQ / Non-Savage content.
3) The limit on gear per run is too restrictive compared to the level of effort needed to get one clear.
4) For some reason this is something people can make open PF groups for when the content is so tuned that it would be a slaughter fest until someone goldfishes the perfect group. That is assuming everyone in that group has even gotten to the same level of progress, which will vary between roles.
5) The entire design of Savage discourages anyone from bringing in new players to the experience. Helping others learn it means they lose chests and resources they could have gained otherwise, so they are effectively being punished for coming late to the scene.

Despite all of these things I still think the biggest problem is that we have a company making content for the sake of filling a checkbox on an MMO requirements sheet when you have dragoons who don't even understand why they need to use "Full Thrust", or Samurai that don't realize they have a 50 kenki instant boost skill to tap into because instead of teaching someone how an ability works, the game just announces you gained X ability, which may or may not pop onto the hot bar in the first available slot it can find, while the person is out-leveling current content by about 10 levels.

and as someone who raids this tier isn't that difficult to do at all until you hit light rampant prog in E8S... i'd argue the final Eden tier in 5.4 needs to be more made more intense.

Let us instead ask WHY the content is too hard/stressful? Are you maybe playing the wrong class for you? Do you struggle with latency? Are you panicking too much because you don't know the fight well enough? Is your static blaming you for mistakes that may or may not be your fault? What can be done to help you in savage apart from changing the difficulty? Help us help you.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

and as someone who raids this tier isn't that difficult to do at all until you hit light rampant prog in E8S... i'd argue the final Eden tier in 5.4 needs to be more made more intense.

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I'm raiding this tier as well, just behind you on progress. Difficulty is in the eye of the beholder: When you are at the top and have cleared things with a skilled group it will seem easy. When someone is progging and is constantly getting reset because of shifting group members it will seem hard to impossible. The issue is that the fights need to be able to accommodate a group of varying composition because the amount of damage output a group can do is going to heavily vary based on class balancing and how the fight is designed. The other issue is that they keep making fights that are designed for set groups as pick up and go.

They even make it so that the base armor is available to any player doing the regular eden runs, actively encouraging people to go do savage to get the dye-able version. The kind of person that wants dye-able gear is not the same kind of person that wants "the best gear possible and to take their job to the best level possible", which is what savage is intended for. I've pretty much chalked most of this up to a culture difference between the US and Japan.

Actually, I'd challenge you on that whole idea of these fights being easy. You think that a fight where one person screwing up on breaking lightning rods or failing a QTE is easy when it also has a DPS check on it? That a fight where if someone doesn't understand how to deal with conflag it will kill the group, and if even so much as one or two key dps die the DPS check just murders you? Savage is designed to crush player groups, and Ultimate is designed to obliterate player groups. Don't underplay your own skill level because if you have cleared all of E6S-E8S you are easily in the top 5-10% of players playing this game.

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Originally Posted by rsod

Endgame content (savages especially) is too difficult and therefore too stressful.
Completion of savages requires multi-hour wiping for a many weeks or even some months, as well as pretty much perfecting rotation, and rotations in FFXIV are very difficult on their own.
This isn't particularly fun, and not everyone is as perfect. Not every human is entitled with enough reaction. Trying for hours every day just to get your bis equipment does not feels right and good.
Moreover, such difficulty leads to difficutly to find people to practice and run dungeons with. If you wasn't lucky to find a group at the beginning of the content - you're pretty much out of it for good.
Something needs to be done about that. Either savage difficulty relaxed a bit, or another source of same bis equipment is needed. Let it be 2 times slower to get than savage's loot, but let it be. For these people, who can't do savages due to time issues, or due to lack of proper reaction and skills, or due to inability to find a group.

I'm sorry for any possible mistakes in text, I'm not native English speaker and my English knowledge is mediocre.

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The only thing I can suggest is to not sweat the small stuff. Only a small number of the population tackle and clear savage when it's relevant content and the vast majority come back at a later date with better gear or even unsynced, to get it cleared, myself included. I've never done Savages when relevant.

The best thing to do, if you feel you are too late to the party, is to find a group of people, who are looking for someone to join them, that corresponds with your time and personal commitments, that are willing to have a good time and not get stressed with the fails that will 100% happen and prepare to tackle the next set of savages.

Better still, if you can get a group that is willing to run older/more recent content as a group, just to get a gaming relationship working and move onto the next stuff when it arrives then happy days.

Also remember, for each "happy static" you see on youtube (for example), there are dozens who fall apart because someone doesn't progress as fast as they want and people who don't know each other are rarely supportive.

As for BiS, it will just be replaced in 3-6 months anyway, so again, don't sweat the small stuff :)

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Originally Posted by JowyAtreides

The only thing I can suggest is to not sweat the small stuff. Only a small number of the population tackle and clear savage when it's relevant content and the vast majority come back at a later date with better gear or even unsynced, to get it cleared, myself included. I've never done Savages when relevant.

The best thing to do, if you feel you are too late to the party, is to find a group of people, who are looking for someone to join them, that corresponds with your time and personal commitments, that are willing to have a good time and not get stressed with the fails that will 100% happen and prepare to tackle the next set of savages.

Better still, if you can get a group that is willing to run older/more recent content as a group, just to get a gaming relationship working and move onto the next stuff when it arrives then happy days.

Also remember, for each "happy static" you see on youtube (for example), there are dozens who fall apart because someone doesn't progress as fast as they want and people who don't know each other are rarely supportive.

As for BiS, it will just be replaced in 3-6 months anyway, so again, don't sweat the small stuff :)

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The bigger problem is that the armor is seeded in the non-savage version, which is done to encourage people who are not normally into savage into doing savage for the sake of getting a dye-able version. They've been doing it since the final tier of Alexander when they finally used roughly the same armor models for the regular and savage version. Again, I chalk this kind of thing up to the culture difference between the USA and Japan, but savage is about playing your class to your best ability and getting the best gear possible. If they had replica gear or something for the savage armor it would probably help solve at least some aspects of this. Then again this is the company that is making savage raids to fill a checkbox on an mmo spreadsheet when they still haven't figured out how to teach people how to play their classes properly. They need better challenges for players to grind against before they hit the end game instead of rushing people to the end game.

Edit: To elaborate a bit, SE stated that they deliberately made Titania EX, Innocence EX, and all the normal mode content along with Eden Savage 1-4 a bit easier than normal because people were still getting to know their jobs. When they moved to patch 5.2 they upped the difficulty, but left nothing at the new tier to help people who are still new to the game to get to the same level as the people who are currently at the end game. This bit my static in the butt because we had to get a tank for it, found one who wanted to join, but hadn't cleared Eden normal 5-8. We got him through it, but when we went into E5S he couldn't survive the tank buster or position the boss properly. The reason for this is that he didn't have anything to really practice up on. He struggled on E7 normal because the difficulty was amped up for the established players, and now he is fighting something tuned for people who already cleared savage 1-4.

The way they do patch cycles, they render the content from the prior patch cycle as retro content, with the new content meant to be for the established player base. This cycle doesn't work and hurts them when they deal with new players just as much as the ARR wall. They really need Titania EX and Innocence EX level fights at each major patch.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

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They've actually been doing the dyeable raid gear only from Savage since the first tier of Alexander(Gordias).

As for providing content to players that convey how to play their jobs... mmmm, there's no perfect way to do that or implement it. I'd also argue that they do way more than enough to teach players. It is the players that do not want to learn. When you can't even convince somebody to read a tooltip, that's a bigger issue than anything else. How can you expect someone to communicate or memorize a fight script if they can't even read two sentences about their ability functions?

As for them no longer gating raid progression. Well, they gated raid progression in Binding Coil through Final Coil, but this upset people because many could not contend with Turn 9. So starting in HW, they kept raid tiers compartmentalized, only locked behind the normal mode raid, so that people could move on and try out the next savage raid tier without having to slam their heads against what for many was an unbeatable fight. Getting good at the game takes time, even learning one well designed semi-hard fight won't make someone automatically able to just understand a higher tier of mechanics. There is no conceivable way to design a fight that will certify that a player is Savage or Ultimate ready.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

They've actually been doing the dyeable raid gear only from Savage since the first tier of Alexander(Gordias).

As for providing content to players that convey how to play their jobs... mmmm, there's no perfect way to do that or implement it. I'd also argue that they do way more than enough to teach players. It is the players that do not want to learn. When you can't even convince somebody to read a tooltip, that's a bigger issue than anything else. How can you expect someone to communicate or memorize a fight script if they can't even read two sentences about their ability functions?

As for them no longer gating raid progression. Well, they gated raid progression in Binding Coil through Final Coil, but this upset people because many could not contend with Turn 9. So starting in HW, they kept raid tiers compartmentalized, only locked behind the normal mode raid, so that people could move on and try out the next savage raid tier without having to slam their heads against what for many was an unbeatable fight. Getting good at the game takes time, even learning one well designed semi-hard fight won't make someone automatically able to just understand a higher tier of mechanics. There is no conceivable way to design a fight that will certify that a player is Savage or Ultimate ready.

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The problem is tackle-able, the issue is that the growth pattern for FFXIV sort of caught Square Enix off guard from what I've seen on their financials. Most games hit their peak audience numbers some time shortly after the third expansion, but Stormblood was sort of a dud in terms of expansions and the one that really blew things up was Shadowbringers. So they hit this issue of not streamlining the ARR story soon enough and went with the typical end game content pattern they were used to, which caters to the audience that already got past the wall. Just about the only thing they could do to make it easier in the short term for new players was throw in the moogle tomestone events and pump EXP up so that the players could jet to max level as fast as possible. However, they can't really bypass the MSQ, so they get walled there and outlevel the MSQ by miles.

Then the other problem is that these new players get carried through mechanics by the geared players. Bardam was supposed to teach players how to do certain mechanics on the second boss, but I recently just carried an entire group through it that were all sproutlings. They didn't so much as dodge and after it was over they were confused on what the heck just happened. The Lost City of Ampador Diabolos fight was the only fight that did it's job of forcing people to stop and think, but it is a side dungeon and not a MSQ one.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Then the other problem is that these new players get carried through mechanics by the geared players. Bardam was supposed to teach players how to do certain mechanics on the second boss, but I recently just carried an entire group through it that were all sproutlings. They didn't so much as dodge and after it was over they were confused on what the heck just happened. The Lost City of Ampador Diabolos fight was the only fight that did it's job of forcing people to stop and think, but it is a side dungeon and not a MSQ one.

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Ive never been in this situation, but id have been tempted to take an intentional L there. Yeah, youre making the dungeon take 3(+) more minutes, but making at least one of them successfully do the dodges each round might be worth it. While you run back, just quickly explain that this fight is designed to test players ability to dodge different telegraphs and AoEs. If they cant do it, the game deems them unworthy continuing onward. Or dont. Im sure some wouldnt take that well. As for Diablos, originally you might have had to think. Last time i did that dungeon synced you could power through and ignore the door mechanic(i think it was out DPSing him, but maybe even just healing through it?). Another opportunity lost to power creep.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The problem is tackle-able, the issue is that the growth pattern for FFXIV sort of caught Square Enix off guard from what I've seen on their financials. Most games hit their peak audience numbers some time shortly after the third expansion, but Stormblood was sort of a dud in terms of expansions and the one that really blew things up was Shadowbringers. So they hit this issue of not streamlining the ARR story soon enough and went with the typical end game content pattern they were used to, which caters to the audience that already got past the wall. Just about the only thing they could do to make it easier in the short term for new players was throw in the moogle tomestone events and pump EXP up so that the players could jet to max level as fast as possible. However, they can't really bypass the MSQ, so they get walled there and outlevel the MSQ by miles.

Then the other problem is that these new players get carried through mechanics by the geared players. Bardam was supposed to teach players how to do certain mechanics on the second boss, but I recently just carried an entire group through it that were all sproutlings. They didn't so much as dodge and after it was over they were confused on what the heck just happened. The Lost City of Ampador Diabolos fight was the only fight that did it's job of forcing people to stop and think, but it is a side dungeon and not a MSQ one.

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Mmm, no fight in the game is exempt from being able to carry people to a certain extent. Well, except Ultimates. Every dungeon can be beaten by the group if the healer stays alive. In some cases where group wide damage is low enough that things like bloodbath can keep DPS alive, just the tank and DPS staying alive can beat dungeons.

Unfortunately, even Diabolos in Amdapor City's mechanics could be ignored if the party had ilvl 105 DPS or higher, just by zerging through his HP and stunning the casts of Nightmare. The group can live through 1 use of his ultimate attack, and he doesn't have enough HP to get a second one off, most of the time.

The game had a pretty high player spike in Heavensward too, but they shot their raiding playerbase in the foot with the nearly unbeatable Gordias, which caused a lot of people to outright quit the game.

All 4 trials lmao

I say the worst one is the 2 samey dungeons in expert roulette.

So your solution for your own inability and selfishness, is to further ruin the game for those of us who actually possess the ability to complete it. Simply because you want the rewards fitting a greater amount of effort than you can be bothered to invest.

I've seen some hilariously terrible stances in my time but besides being honest about the reasoning, such lines of thought just leave me dumbfounded honestly. If you cant be bothered to reach a comparable level to those who can achieve something - don't. As plenty of people have already said. Expecting a gold medal for something that doesn't even qualify for bronze (and complaining about it) is actually a dismissable argument at the Olympics and they reserve the right to boot you out the door. If only the same applied here. Sigh.

If someone else could do it, unless you have lag. You can do it. And get a sense of accomplishment when you do so.
I do not do savage. But I do not see anything wrong with having hard content. As far as games go. FFXIV is pretty easy.

The only thing I would like is dungeons with ultra hard bosses that are not by appointment. So people will continue to come and go until the boss is defeated. Like a competition between worlds and companies. Something like company that does most damage, gets a stats bonus for the rest of the week. Plus a monument in their main city when is accomplished.

Well, after doing savage for a couple weeks to get a feel for what the end game is like I'm going to say "yes the devs over-tuned it", but I'm going to preface that by also saying they didn't intend this content to be run by most people. Albeit, even for those people E6S is really badly designed with some not-so-obvious pitfalls. I think the devs need to go visit the WoW Forums from the time of the Sunwell and checkout what people said about Brutalis.

To put it bluntly, Brutalis is exactly what E6S is at the gear level that most people are going to have on it's inception. It is a pure gear check and dps check that goes down to the wire, even more so than Ramuh, and requires a lot of things to line up properly to even pass the fight. It has a clip issue with the Meteor Strike where ifrit can actually hit you even though you "dodged" the landing zone for the attack if you are on the side he is facing, and due to how the "Hands of Hell" style mechanic works it is not readily apparent which part of the attack sequence on the tanks is the real tank buster. You can definitely figure it out eventually, but I'm not surprised if people just get walled on that one.

Considering they added Ultimate, there really isn't a need to have savage be super tuned hardcore mode anyway. What people want right now is something more akin to a normal level of difficulty raiding scene that they can grind to get the dye-able eden sets. Also, I think that the only thing having something on the level of Eden Savage will bring is a ton of toxic people wanting to throttle each other as they struggle to find some way to get past the content, with the few groups that do get through the wall basically bouncing back until they are bored with trying to provide charity runs.

It kind of makes you wonder why someone would even bother making content when they know it is going to go toxic.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Considering they added Ultimate, there really isn't a need to have savage be super tuned hardcore mode anyway. What people want right now is something more akin to a normal level of difficulty raiding scene that they can grind to get the dye-able eden sets. Also, I think that the only thing having something on the level of Eden Savage will bring is a ton of toxic people wanting to throttle each other as they struggle to find some way to get past the content, with the few groups that do get through the wall basically bouncing back until they are bored with trying to provide charity runs.

It kind of makes you wonder why someone would even bother making content when they know it is going to go toxic.

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Savage is still a big step down from Ultimate. The entire savage tier was cleared faster than the most recent Ultimate fight if I recall correctly.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Well, after doing savage for a couple weeks to get a feel for what the end game is like I'm going to say "yes the devs over-tuned it", but I'm going to preface that by also saying they didn't intend this content to be run by most people. Albeit, even for those people E6S is really badly designed with some not-so-obvious pitfalls.

You can definitely figure it out eventually, but I'm not surprised if people just get walled on that one.

Considering they added Ultimate, there really isn't a need to have savage be super tuned hardcore mode anyway. What people want right now is something more akin to a normal level of difficulty raiding scene that they can grind to get the dye-able eden sets. Also, I think that the only thing having something on the level of Eden Savage will bring is a ton of toxic people wanting to throttle each other as they struggle to find some way to get past the content, with the few groups that do get through the wall basically bouncing back until they are bored with trying to provide charity runs.

It kind of makes you wonder why someone would even bother making content when they know it is going to go toxic.

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E6S really isn't that bad of a fight, it's definitely tough and a wall for some. But in all honesty it's not that bad if everyone in the group understands their job, the Tank Buster's are up to the tanks to handle and mitigate damage and swap properly.

Also this tier isn't over tuned it's fine as is, it just happens to be PUNISHING for mistakes, as savage should be, yes you can recover from mistakes in savage and it'll come down to the wire. However, Savage is no where near ultimate, you make one mistake in an ultimate and it's basically over. Ultimate also requires 20 to 25 minutes of perfect play which that in of itself is the what makes it so difficult and rewarding. Savage is tough and is a 2 steps up from Ex trials. I'd honestly suggest anyone who wants to do savage content should be breezing through Ex trials, otherwise yes you'll struggle quite a bit in Savage.

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Originally Posted by EthanXdeath

E6S really isn't that bad of a fight, it's definitely tough and a wall for some. But in all honesty it's not that bad if everyone in the group understands their job, the Tank Buster's are up to the tanks to handle and mitigate damage and swap properly.

Also this tier isn't over tuned it's fine as is, it just happens to be PUNISHING for mistakes, as savage should be, yes you can recover from mistakes in savage and it'll come down to the wire. However, Savage is no where near ultimate, you make one mistake in an ultimate and it's basically over. Ultimate also requires 20 to 25 minutes of perfect play which that in of itself is the what makes it so difficult and rewarding. Savage is tough and is a 2 steps up from Ex trials. I'd honestly suggest anyone who wants to do savage content should be breezing through Ex trials, otherwise yes you'll struggle quite a bit in Savage.

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The issue with the fight is that the DPS check is tough as is and you can't actually practice the entire fight like you can with Ramuh when others are not up to speed. Ramuh you still essentially "see" the furious 14 before he gets to double horses and you see chain lightning pretty much mid fight. There is no way to see a lesser conflag before getting to conflag, and there is no way to really practice the exact positioning and movements needed for post conflag before post conflag.

Changes I'd make to the fight is having ifrit himself do a conflag in the first part of the fight with a slightly simplified version of the late fight conflag. Then make positioning a bit more clear on hands of hell by having ifrit center in the room after the first conflag and force people to position the tethers on inter-cardinals to avoid getting a debuff. This would replace the pointless dead weight transformation sequence they kept in there with an interactive one.

If those two changes were there, I'd have no complaints because then everyone regardless of how far they really have made it would have been forced to go through the Conflag.

It basically comes down to "people are not psychic". There's no way to know how to handle something if they have never even seen the effect before, especially if they are dying to other mechanics the entire time, and the part people are dying to in the pugs is really far into the fight.

Sure, players aren't psychic, but failing and retrying is part of the learning process. You don't have to get it right the first time.

And video guides have been out for a good while now, you do have a way of knowing ahead of time. And if you wanna do blind prog, that's okay too, but you gotta accept that wiping will be an inevitable thing

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The issue with the fight is that the DPS check is tough as is and you can't actually practice the entire fight like you can with Ramuh when others are not up to speed. Ramuh you still essentially "see" the furious 14 before he gets to double horses and you see chain lightning pretty much mid fight. There is no way to see a lesser conflag before getting to conflag, and there is no way to really practice the exact positioning and movements needed for post conflag before post conflag.

Changes I'd make to the fight is having ifrit himself do a conflag in the first part of the fight with a slightly simplified version of the late fight conflag. Then make positioning a bit more clear on hands of hell by having ifrit center in the room after the first conflag and force people to position the tethers on inter-cardinals to avoid getting a debuff. This would replace the pointless dead weight transformation sequence they kept in there with an interactive one.

If those two changes were there, I'd have no complaints because then everyone regardless of how far they really have made it would have been forced to go through the Conflag.

It basically comes down to "people are not psychic". There's no way to know how to handle something if they have never even seen the effect before, especially if they are dying to other mechanics the entire time, and the part people are dying to in the pugs is really far into the fight.

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Just wait till you get to shiva knockback mirrors... WOOO BOY, you have no idea.

After all the years I’ve been playing the most difficult part of endgame is finding people who keep up and learn fast. If anything the devs should continue like they have recently with death forgiveness. Even add in it by giving pause moments like they have. No matter how many times players die in a match the boss can still be cleared. I’m glad the devs distanced themselves from those perfect runs nobody can die even once days.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

After all the years I’ve been playing the most difficult part of endgame is finding people who keep up and learn fast. If anything the devs should continue like they have recently with death forgiveness. Even add in it by giving pause moments like they have. No matter how many times players die in a match the boss can still be cleared. I’m glad the devs distanced themselves from those perfect runs nobody can die even once days.

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Not sure what you mean... if anyone dies in E6S right now at the normal item levels it is good game. Unless you are being sarcastic? ;p

I've been seeing the hours spent in this and don't even think this is worth the time to really do, honestly. E1S-E4S was definitely more the speed I'd expect for something that is "challenging but still doable". If a good group can punch through it in about two to three weeks than it's definitely worth the time, but otherwise getting stuck on something like E6S or even E7S for weeks on end? People are spending like 3 hours a day on this stuff in some cases. That sounds like chinese water torture and I've only been stuck on E6S for maybe 3 weeks because of pugs and just general bad luck.

It's one of those things where if everything goes and lines up it's great, and for most it's probably not going to line up. :p

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Originally Posted by Colt47

I've been seeing the hours spent in this and don't even think this is worth the time to really do, honestly. E1S-E4S was definitely more the speed I'd expect for something that is "challenging but still doable". If a good group can punch through it in about two to three weeks than it's definitely worth the time, but otherwise getting stuck on something like E6S or even E7S for weeks on end? People are spending like 3 hours a day on this stuff in some cases. That sounds like chinese water torture and I've only been stuck on E6S for maybe 3 weeks because of pugs and just general bad luck.

It's one of those things where if everything goes and lines up it's great, and for most it's probably not going to line up. :p

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If you dont think its worth the time, they why are you doing it? Savage gets you bragging rights(the mount is included in this but literally no one else cares about your accomplishments), it gets you slightly better gear(which is only useful if theres an ultimate for the current tier - and we all know that right now there isnt), and it gets you a 3 month lead on outfitting your classes. Then 6 months later, a new tier comes out and your slightly better gear is below crafted quality again and you have 4 new fights to try mastering. If that treadmill isnt worth it to you, then get off. Tome gear will be more then enough to get you into the next tier while you work on getting new stuff(hell, if you arent doing the harder content then the current crafted/normal raid tier will get you through the next tier).

And side note, but shouldnt the 2nd tier of a raid series be harder then the first? Then the third tier harder still? Shouldnt we be building toward E12S being one of the hardest fights of the expansion?

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Originally Posted by Colt47

I've been seeing the hours spent in this and don't even think this is worth the time to really do, honestly. E1S-E4S was definitely more the speed I'd expect for something that is "challenging but still doable". If a good group can punch through it in about two to three weeks than it's definitely worth the time, but otherwise getting stuck on something like E6S or even E7S for weeks on end? People are spending like 3 hours a day on this stuff in some cases. That sounds like chinese water torture and I've only been stuck on E6S for maybe 3 weeks because of pugs and just general bad luck.

It's one of those things where if everything goes and lines up it's great, and for most it's probably not going to line up. :p

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I started mid StormBlood back in 4.3, when I first went into savage I was Tanking in O5S, it took a bit I managed to beat it, then tried my hand at O6S, again took time with Pugs but managed to beat it. Got to O7S and HOLY MOOGLE on a stick, I wiped there for weeks and weeks with little to no progress and decided I needed to find a consistent group to even consider tackling savage, this got reinforced when I got to O10S as well which I believe was even harder than O7S. It was from that moment on I thought to myself I wont use PUGs for savage prog/clear again. It's as someone said in a post above, a group that learns quick and is able to keep up is KEY.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

If you dont think its worth the time, they why are you doing it? Savage gets you bragging rights(the mount is included in this but literally no one else cares about your accomplishments), it gets you slightly better gear(which is only useful if theres an ultimate for the current tier - and we all know that right now there isnt), and it gets you a 3 month lead on outfitting your classes. Then 6 months later, a new tier comes out and your slightly better gear is below crafted quality again and you have 4 new fights to try mastering. If that treadmill isnt worth it to you, then get off. Tome gear will be more then enough to get you into the next tier while you work on getting new stuff(hell, if you arent doing the harder content then the current crafted/normal raid tier will get you through the next tier).

And side note, but shouldnt the 2nd tier of a raid series be harder then the first? Then the third tier harder still? Shouldnt we be building toward E12S being one of the hardest fights of the expansion?

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Completely 100% agree. Each tier should be harder than the next. That to me is what makes it fun.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Not sure what you mean... if anyone dies in E6S right now at the normal item levels it is good game. Unless you are being sarcastic? ;p

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Uh, no? While not as laughably forgiving as Ramuh, E6S' enrage easily allows several deaths provided people aren't completely clueless on how to play their jobs. What throws people off in PuGs is how much they bounce around, especially for melee/tanks who try to stay on the boss and eat stuff they shouldn't. I will say, I don't find E6S practically well designed mostly due to said melee downtime but also a few other mechanics. It isn't hard though. At least imo.