Red Mage Opener confusion

I am not understanding some things so i wanted to ask and see if yall can help me make sense of this. I am looking up RDM opener/rotation and what im finding shows

(Acceleration)->Veraero->Verthunder->Verstone->Veraero->(Emboldment)->(Fleche)->Verfire->Verthunder->(Corps-a-corps)->(Contre Sixte)->Verstone->Verthunder->(Manafication)->(Engagement)->Enchanted Riposte->Enchanted Zwerchhau->Enchanted Redoublement->(Displacement)->Verholy->->Scorch->…

There are 2 things that im not understanding First and foremost is the use of Engagement over Displacement... Engagement has potency of 150 while Displacement has potency of 200. So for the life of me I can not understand why (unless flipping backwards is going to cause you to die) would you ever use Engagement over Displacement...

The second thing I am not understanding. Why is this the start to the opener now? Granted its been a long time since I researched RDM openers and i know things change so this is why im asking. When I got serious with RDM and cracked down on proper opener it was

Corps a corps > displacement > Fleche > Contre > Swift cast > Embolden > Acceleration > Veraero ...etc and always using displacement unless itd cause death.

Starting with corps and displacement first since you're going to use Manafication which will reset their timers first anyways...

So if someone could explain please b/c im rightly confused over here

Displacement has a longer animation lock. Delaying your GCD is the same as losing potency, and Red Mage has beefy gcds. Triple weaving to use the corps to get back into melee range to start your combo is losing significantly more than the 50 potency on engagement over displacement.

The rest is likely "math" and I don't have those numbers for you. Likely to do with raid alignment and making sure your heavy hitters are getting the buff / lining up, which is a significant gain over the course of the fight and likely doesn't lose any uses.

Okay, first off, neither opener is anything close to a proper opener. We have two main variants, with Embolden and Contre Sixte being swapped depending on what physical DPS and tanks you have. I'll list them in order along with their pros and cons.

x-8:
-15s Acceleration > -5s Veraero > Verthunder (INT potion) > Verstone > Veraero (Fleche, Contre Sixte/Embolden) > Verfire > Verthunder (Corps-a-corps, Contre Sixte/Embolden) > Verstone > Verthunder (Engagement, Manafication) > Riposte (Corps-a-corps) > Zwercchau > Redoublement (Displacement) > Verholy > Scorch >Verstone/Verfire as procs dictate > Dualcast (Fleche, Swiftcast) > consume Swiftcast on Thunder/Aero

Pros:
1) gets more of your burst damage under raid buffs
2) guarantees a proc from your Verfinisher no matter what
3) execution is always the same

Cons:
1) lower mana generation than x-10
2) later Swiftcast usage than x-10


x-10: (will list worse case scenario with no post-Acceleration procs)
-15s Acceleration > -5s Veraero > Verthunder (INT potion) > Verstone > Veraero (Fleche, Contre Sixte/Embolden) > Verfire > Verthunder (Corps-a-corps, Contre Sixte/Embolden) > Verstone > Verthunder (Displacement) > Jolt II > Veraero (Manafication, Corps-a-corps) > Riposte (Swiftcast if latency lets you activate it after the combo) > Zwercchau (otherwise Swiftcast here) > Redoublement (Displacement) > Verflare > Scorch (Fleche) > Veraero

Pros:
1) better mana generation than x-8 thanks to Manafication being used to double mana slightly later
2) much earlier use of Swiftcast to align with later mechanics or potentially get an extra use over the course of the fight
3) enables you to use Reprise slightly more freely throughout the fight to align oGCDs and/or line Dualcast up with necessary movement
4) allows for Addle usage pre-Manafication if the fight has a potentially lethal raidwide AoE early on (such as Absolute Zero in E8S) by shifting both uses of Corps-a-corps back. First Corps-a-corps gets moved to the same weave space as Manafication and second Corps-a-corps gets moved to after/before Swiftcast depending on latency.

Cons:
1) execution is based on procs, will not be the same every time
2) slightly less burst damage is under raid buffs
3) does not always guarantee a proc from the Verfinisher

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Originally Posted by Choco_Breeder_Twirly

There are 2 things that im not understanding First and foremost is the use of Engagement over Displacement... Engagement has potency of 150 while Displacement has potency of 200. So for the life of me I can not understand why (unless flipping backwards is going to cause you to die) would you ever use Engagement over Displacement...

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The main reasoning for Engagement in the opener that you posted is because it is the faster variant of our opener, an "x-8" opener. There is a limited amount of oGCD space that we have to get all our things on cooldown before using Manafication, and like Kabooa said, Engagement has a shorter animation lock than Displacement. The shorter animation lock allows it to be used with another oGCD without clipping into your GCD and delaying your next GCD.

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Originally Posted by Choco_Breeder_Twirly

Corps a corps > displacement > Fleche > Contre > Swift cast > Embolden > Acceleration > Veraero ...etc and always using displacement unless itd cause death.

Starting with corps and displacement first since you're going to use Manafication which will reset their timers first anyways...

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I'm not sure where you found this opener, as it is not something that neither me, nor the past RDM mentors at the Balance have ever written. While your reasoning is sound that Manafication resets them, so you want them on cooldown, opening on a fight with abilities off the global cooldown rather than a spell is a huge DPS loss. Your spells are going to be a big chunk of damage, and delaying your spells to get your oGCDs out means you also delay your Manafication and opening melee combo, which would disrupt your rotation for the rest of the fight.

I don't think blowing all your oGCDs without a single GCD cast going out was ever the correct opener for Red Mage, lol

The've pretty much been outlined here, however, you can find the vetted openers and work hinoka, others and I have put together here on the Red Mage site Openers page.

There are some embedded videos as well. Hope they help.

I don't think you really can use an "Opener" with RDM unless its just a guideline.

Primarily because you can't predict the RDM procs so it really kinda makes Acceleration kinda iffy when you try to use it. I determine whether i will or not after my first cast primarily because it just might proc which wastes your Acceleration AND if you do start proccing then Acceleration is going to come later in the order two which will hose up any kind of prediction of where your Melee +Verflare/Verholy + Scortch will come. It could end up coming up really fast... or more slow and steady.

You just never know when those procs will come.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Primarily because you can't predict the RDM procs so it really kinda makes Acceleration kinda iffy when you try to use it. I determine whether i will or not after my first cast primarily because it just might proc which wastes your Acceleration

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This reasoning seems strange to me. Doesn't the nature of verthunder/aero's 50% proc chance mean that you can never be certain if the proc they gave you would've happened without acceleration? If it makes you feel any better, maybe you should think of acceleration as 'increases your proc chance by 50%' instead of guaranteeing a proc. Because outside of situations where you verholy/verflare the higher element on purpose and want to force a proc, no matter when you use acceleration, it is always going to overlap with the base 50% proc chance.

Plus, there are other reasons why you'd value consistency in your opener, for alignment with raid buffs for example. Or mechanics, take ucob which has a twister 10s into the opener and you really don't want to be fumbling with an improvised opener there.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I don't think you really can use an "Opener" with RDM unless its just a guideline.

Primarily because you can't predict the RDM procs so it really kinda makes Acceleration kinda iffy when you try to use it.

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Acceleration guarantees you get three procs and therefore are guaranteed to be able to Manafication into a melee combo after GCD 8.

There is far less RNG to RDM than many people believe. We get lots of guaranteed procs and mana rebates, and E.Reprise is in a good spot for burning mana when you get more procs than baseline.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

This reasoning seems strange to me. Doesn't the nature of verthunder/aero's 50% proc chance mean that you can never be certain if the proc they gave you would've happened without acceleration? If it makes you feel any better, maybe you should think of acceleration as 'increases your proc chance by 50%' instead of guaranteeing a proc..

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Well that quite frankly is why, I don't make the decision whether to use Acceleration or not until after my first cast.

If it procs on the first cast, you don't need to use Acceleration at that point which makes it moot, and you will get to your first Melee combo faster because you waited on it.

I can see Rongway's point in attempting to stablilize your Rotation for Raid buffs, but I just don't think you can do a predictable opener or even playstyle with RDM because of the Procs.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well that quite frankly is why, I don't make the decision whether to use Acceleration or not until after my first cast.

If it procs on the first cast, you don't need to use Acceleration at that point which makes it moot, and you will get to your first Melee combo faster because you waited on it.

I can see Rongway's point in attempting to stablilize your Rotation for Raid buffs, but I just don't think you can do a predictable opener or even playstyle with RDM because of the Procs.

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Holding acceleration doesn't "get you to first melee" faster. Quickest case scenario is still 8th gcd, because the quickest case scenario is Acceleration's guarantee of 3 procs.

Holding it is actually a 25% chance to delay it until the 10th GCD with mana overcap from Manaficiation.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well that quite frankly is why, I don't make the decision whether to use Acceleration or not until after my first cast.

If it procs on the first cast, you don't need to use Acceleration at that point which makes it moot, and you will get to your first Melee combo faster because you waited on it.

I can see Rongway's point in attempting to stablilize your Rotation for Raid buffs, but I just don't think you can do a predictable opener or even playstyle with RDM because of the Procs.

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This kind of reasoning is why people ingame don't take RDM seriously. It's an extremely consistent class now that Acceleration gives 3 stacks, to the point where you can predict to the GCD when you'll enter any given melee combo before the fight starts, depending on whether you choose to delay Manafication to after the 9th in-fight GCD or not. As outlined on the first page, several posts above, you can easily outline four separate openers depending on when you want to enter your first melee combo (to generate more mana/use Swiftcast earlier, or to get more of your combo under raid buffs) and to give greater benefit from Embolden to your DPS depending on what GCD you use Embolden during. Holding onto Acceleration until after the first GCD is wasting roughly 15 seconds of its cooldown for no reason and throwing your entire opener (and likely the rest of the fight) into chaos, also for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Holding acceleration doesn't "get you to first melee" faster. Quickest case scenario is still 8th gcd, because the quickest case scenario is Acceleration's guarantee of 3 procs.

Holding it is actually a 25% chance to delay it until the 10th GCD with mana overcap from Manaficiation.

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I don't even think that's true.

Because a Proc at high level procs three times in a row just like Acceleration.

So if your opening cast procs, you have 3 in a row. Then at that point if the next cast after that doesn't proc, the you can hit Acceleration... or it might just proc again so you've got another 3 procs coming.

This is why I said what I did.

I understand trying to "force" stabilize it per se the way Rongway is talking about... but that still doesn't change how fast or slow you're going to end up in your melee combos, because they are completely unpredictable.

Which in my opinion is why RDM DPS has such a huge disparity between high and low damage. The Rotation just does not follow a set pattern because of the way the Job and Procs work.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I don't even think that's true.

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The wonderful part about math is you don't have to agree with it.

It's either right or it's wrong, and in this case, you cannot get to melee from 0/0 faster than after the 8th GCD, which requires 3 procs that Acceleration guarantees.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Because a Proc at high level procs three times in a row just like Acceleration.

So if your opening cast procs, you have 3 in a row. Then at that point if the next cast after that doesn't proc, the you can hit Acceleration... or it might just proc again so you've got another 3 procs coming.

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That's not how probability works. There is a 0.5^3 chance that you will get three natural procs in a row--a mere 12.5%.

If we represent procs as bits (0s and 1s) with 1 being a proc, we get the following possibilities (considering just Verslowspells cast, and without regard to mana, for which the math would look similar anyway):

000 - no procs, 1110 potency

001 - 1 proc, 1130 potency (one Jolt can be replaced by a Verfastspell)
010 - 1 proc, 1130 potency
100 - 1 proc, 1130 potency

011 - 2 procs, 1150 potency (two Jolts can be replaced)
101 - 2 procs, 1150 potency
110 - 2 procs, 1150 potency

111 - 3 procs, 1170 potency (three Jolts can be replaced)

Add up all these potencies and divide by 8 (the number of possible outcomes) and then divide by 3 (the number of Verslowspells in each case), we get 380, the expected value of a Verslowspell if it has a 50% chance to upgrade a Jolt to a Verfastspell. Acceleration forces the last outcome, where all three Verslowspells are guaranteed to be worth 390.

We didn't have to do all that math though. Expected Value of every Verslowspell is 370 (the Verslowspell's potency) plus 10 (50% of the difference between a Jolt and a Verfastspell) because there is a 50% chance to proc.

With Acceleration, the Expected Value of a Verslowspell is 370 + 20 (100% the difference between Jolt and a Verfastspell). This is a gain of 10 potency per Verslowspell.

Using it later only shifts which three Verslowspells have their expected values boosted. You don't gain by holding it to see if you can get natural procs, because there's a 50% chance that it will naturally not-proc, giving an Actual Value of 370+0, and a 50% chance that it will naturally proc, giving an Actual Value of 370+20, and when we average these together, that's still the Expected Value of 370+10.

So instead of having a string of five Verslowspells with expected values: 390, 390, 390, 380, 380 from using Acceleration ASAP; waiting only gives you expected values: 380, 390, 390, 390, 380; or 380, 380, 390, 390, 390. The number of forced procs hasn't changed, just where they lie.

It's better to use Acceleration sooner so you get more uses out of it than to hold it and hope for natural procs.

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I understand trying to "force" stabilize it per se the way Rongway is talking about... but that still doesn't change how fast or slow you're going to end up in your melee combos, because they are completely unpredictable.

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???

Your first melee combo is 100% predictable.

And even after the first one, there isn't actually that much RNG to RDM.

You get 35 mana refunded per combo. If it's before a Manafication, it's effectively a refund of 70 mana. Use Acceleration ~45s into the battle for three more forced procs. Note that in a proper opener, with Acceleration used 10s before pull, Acceleration cools down 14s earlier than if you had begun the battle with just Verslowspell-Verotherslowspell before deciding whether to use Acceleration. Use Acceleration again on cooldown. So what if there was a 50% chance to proc anyway; Acceleration still increases the Expected Value of three Verslowspells from 370+(0.5(300-280))=380 to 370+(1.0(300-280))=390.

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Which in my opinion is why RDM DPS has such a huge disparity between high and low damage. The Rotation just does not follow a set pattern because of the way the Job and Procs work.

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RDM play is predictable enough. It is 100% predictable in the opener, and with all the rebates and forced procs, Jolt should account for no more than about 30% of your hard casts throughout a fight, much less than the 50% raw probability of just considering Verslowspells without the rest of the RDM action set.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The wonderful part about math is you don't have to agree with it.

It's either right or it's wrong, and in this case, you cannot get to melee from 0/0 faster than after the 8th GCD, which requires 3 procs that Acceleration guarantees.

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didn't we allready have this discussion when like 5 different people tried to explain to him the differences between dps/adps/rdps ? pretty sure "not agreeing with math" is like a hobby to him...

Unfortunately, yes.

Acceleration exists for consistency in the rotation.
Not to counter a wrong fortune-teller scenario.

Acceleration also guarantees a proc.
There is a huge difference between someone that will wing it because Red Mage is not predictable over someone who runs content and likes to optimize and see big numbers.
Using acceleration other then in an opener is situational but i would say is not the best to do. (or you really mess up our balance)

And OP, it does take time to get used to, it did for me but after practice you should get the hang of it.
You could also modify it slightly or choose a different opener. I know balance discord has a few listed.
Myself i have used the X10 as it seems to be prefered. But i am now back again to my Shadowbringer main which is DNC.

As a Red Mage under Level 70, is there a reason not to go with something like: Embolden > Contre Sixte > Fleche > Swiftcast > Acceleration > VerAero > VerStone > VerThunder > VerFire > VerAero > VerStone > Manafication > Corps-a-Corps > Melee trio > Displacement for an opening?

Several reasons:

Never open with Embolden into damage oGCDs. Prepull Acceleration into a long cast should always be the way to go unless you're having to Jolt instead. Embolden is better a bit later aligned for party burst. It also does nothing for the damage oGCDs as they are all physical so the highest stacks are wasted.
Swift should never be used for the opening 1st GCD, although with C6 -> Fleche we're already behind.
The string of OGCDs is extremely GCD inefficient and is a big dps loss just from the GCDs it's not rolling.
CAC and Displacement are not used prior to Manafication resulting in further potency losses due to Manafication's resets overwriting available cooldowns.

You can adapt the current opener down, or use the original Stormblood era openers since the core of RDM did not change. All you're missing are certain pieces but the core remains the same.

Okay... I didn't know they were physical and not spells....

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Originally Posted by Leidolf

As a Red Mage under Level 70, is there a reason not to go with something like: Embolden > Contre Sixte > Fleche > Swiftcast > Acceleration > VerAero > VerStone > VerThunder > VerFire > VerAero > VerStone > Manafication > Corps-a-Corps > Melee trio > Displacement for an opening?

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(Additional side note: You absolutely must cast at least 8 spells before you can Manafication>Combo, so it's only possible to do the quoted bit if you're in a dungeon and have leftover mana from a trash pull.)


Each oGCD takes about 0.7s~0.75s (except Displacement, which takes noticeably longer). Each instant Spell also takes 0.7s. This means that in the span of one 2.35s~2.45s GCD, you have time to cast an instant spell and use two oGCDs (as long as neither is Displacement) without delaying your next GCD. This is why you don't want to use any more than two oGCDs at a time. If you use those five oGCDs at the beginning, you're effectively losing spells that you could have cast for lots of damage, because in the same amount of time that it takes to do

(oGCD1+oGCD2+oGCD3)
(oGCD4+oGCD5)
Spell
Spell+Spell

you could have done

(oGCD1)
Spell+Spell (oGCD2+oGCD3)
Spell+Spell (oGCD4+oGCD5)



I would recommend practicing this opener, which is a potion-less modification of one of the Balance RDM openers:

10s before pull: (Acceleration)
5s before pull: start casting Veraero
(Veraero finishes)+Verthunder (Fleche+ContreSixte) *** run up to the mob during the instant Verthunder so you can Displace after the next Dualcast
Verstone+Veraero (Displacement)
Verfire+Verthunder (Corps-a-corps+Embolden) *** Embolden boosts party members better here. Use later if being selfish
Verstone+Verthunder (Manafication+Corps-a-corps)
begin Enchanted combo

If rushed pull with no precast time:

(Acceleration)
Jolt+Veraero (Fleche+ContreSixte) *** run up to the mob during the instant spell so you can Displace after the next Dualcast
Verstone+Verthunder (Displacement)
Verfire+Veraero (Corps-a-Corps+Embolden)
Verstone+Verthunder
>>>Proc) Verfire+Veraero
>>>NoProc) (Swiftcast)Verthunder
(Manafication+Corps-a-Corps)
begin Enchanted combo

Thanks. I'll work on getting used to it.

Edit: Nailed it. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I don't even think that's true.

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Using:
VS=Verstone, VSr=has Verstone Ready
VF=Verfire, VFr=has Verfire Read
VT=Verthunder, VA=Veraero

The fastest you can possibly get a melee combo is:

VT (procs)/VA (procs) (11/11, VSr+VFr)->VS/VA(procs) (11/31, VSr+VFr)->VF/VT (31/31, VSr)->Verstone/Verthunder (40/41)

This require three procs, and it requires the first three spells to proc.

Acceleration forces the first three to proc.

There is nothing else to question after that. Any scenario that makes you Jolt in this will prevent you from having 40/41. Replacing a VS puts you at 34/44, and replacing a VF puts you at 43/32 at your 8th cast, and holding acceleration to see if neither your first VT or VA proc means your third spell is jolt, so you cannot get 40/40 by 8th gcd in this case, even if you decide to Accelerate regardless of procs.